Guild Wars 2

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

He gripes but he uses it.

No. No you do not -_-u

He admits the inherent flaws. Even sheds tears over them. And still uses it.

If he wants to use it, ok, cool, I don’t really care. Yet we’re discussing the semantics of competence.

BTW, quoting names doesn’t necessarily amount to anything, though your propensity to do it is notable. I get you want to dismiss the point because I’ve contradicted two “names” (Helseth/Supcutie), but I dismissed Helseths opinions on “Scepter AA clone spam becoming the new Mesmer meta” in the same fashion. I.e. on principled grounds.

So yeah, names, cool.

The point to all this was, you faulted Alpha for not running it (for a second time as your post stated), yet there’s profoundly strong reasons for him not to take DD and profoundly strong reasons to just take Phant Fury instead.

Oh and ahh, I’ve also noticed you seem to interchange between WvW and PvP builds (the build linked was a WvW setup btw). You made some comment before about upping Phant crit chance from 70% to 90% which, while more plausable in WvW, isnt the case in any PvP meta build. You’re talking assassin trinket + accuracy sigil, or a mes/pack rune (instead of vamp). Some combination of “non-meta” anyway, in an argument you’re making under the guise of “meta”.

I’m really not you just aren’t thinking straight.

The dueling tree gives perms fury as minor. Phantasmal fury runes augments in addition to this.

So a 20% increase for you and your phants + phantasmal fury = 40%

Helselth uses it because it is superior. So does supcutie A flawed superior trait is still superior.

I quote names because you implied that those who run the trait are incompetent. That is what I want to disprove.

So I thought to myself who are two mesmers who are widely assumed to be competent.

I dismiss the trait in alpha’s build because the phantasm they use do not multi hit.

It is a shatter build, one extra bleed every 8 seconds is inconsequential. Increasing the crit rate of the phants for whatever power damage they have is miniscule when you are talking about the difference between 70% and 90%

Your point is like going off a life saving medicine because you don’t like the side effects.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Your point is like going off a life saving medicine because you don’t like the side effects.

If not using Desperate Decoy means certain death and if one of the side effects wasn’t death, sure.

For WvW I really can’t say. I can see many roles that a chrono can play, I can see a few roles that a mesmer can play, but I can’t envision how (or if) the wvw meta will change and what I’ll play depends on too many factors.

Embolism.8106:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Your point is like going off a life saving medicine because you don’t like the side effects.

If not using Desperate Decoy means certain death and if one of the side effects wasn’t death, sure.

Excessive chemo can kill you. Please I only asked that people for this instance speak on what they know. Those three seem to consider ones own experience as a factor to what is optimal or not. The build is a rabid build in wvw where the bursts are for more dangerous. They do not use pistol as offhand.

I will remind you that the action of staff porting forward is tedious. So is finding max portal distance. So is managing internal timers. Inherent complexity should not shy you away from things.

Embolism.8106:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Your point is like going off a life saving medicine because you don’t like the side effects.

If not using Desperate Decoy means certain death and if one of the side effects wasn’t death, sure.

Yes but the pros will always avoid death when playing russian roulette, because, you know, they’re the pros -_-u

Daniel Handler.4816:

Excessive chemo can kill you.

It also causes your quality of life to plummet. For some cancer patients, particularly those with metastatic disease, you might not recommend chemo because what time it can buy them is absolutely not worth the horrible suffering they’d go through. In those situations palliative treatment > chemo.

It’s not uncommon either. Chemo is primarily for killing undetectable metastasis. If you already have (multiple) detectable metastasis the risk of chemo may well outweigh the benefits.

But I’m rambling. You still haven’t responded to the (quite common) scenario I poisted before.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

He gripes but he uses it.

No. No you do not -_-u

He admits the inherent flaws. Even sheds tears over them. And still uses it.

If he wants to use it, ok, cool, I don’t really care. Yet we’re discussing the semantics of competence.

BTW, quoting names doesn’t necessarily amount to anything, though your propensity to do it is notable. I get you want to dismiss the point because I’ve contradicted two “names” (Helseth/Supcutie), but I dismissed Helseths opinions on “Scepter AA clone spam becoming the new Mesmer meta” in the same fashion. I.e. on principled grounds.

So yeah, names, cool.

The point to all this was, you faulted Alpha for not running it (for a second time as your post stated), yet there’s profoundly strong reasons for him not to take DD and profoundly strong reasons to just take Phant Fury instead.

Oh and ahh, I’ve also noticed you seem to interchange between WvW and PvP builds (the build linked was a WvW setup btw). You made some comment before about upping Phant crit chance from 70% to 90% which, while more plausable in WvW, isnt the case in any PvP meta build. You’re talking assassin trinket + accuracy sigil, or a mes/pack rune (instead of vamp). Some combination of “non-meta” anyway, in an argument you’re making under the guise of “meta”.

I’m really not you just aren’t thinking straight.

The dueling tree gives perms fury as minor. Phantasmal fury runes augments in addition to this.

So a 20% increase for you and your phants + phantasmal fury = 40%

I dismiss the trait in alpha’s build because the phantasm they use do not multi hit.

It is a shatter build, one extra bleed every 8 seconds is inconsequential. Increasing the crit rate of the phants for whatever power damage they have is miniscule when you are talking about the difference between 70% and 90%

The minor trait in dueling tree gives “perma fury” to the mesmer. Phantasms take their precision from the mesmers base stats. Unless that has changed. So Fury on the Mesmer does not stack with fury on the phantasm.

The only good argument you make against Phant Fury is that his phantasms are single hit in a condi build, but this is no reason to take a bad trait choice. Especially not in WvW where being locked out of stealth is a death sentence. Furthermore, even in a condi build, a couple k damage from an iWarlock is nothing to be waved away. It’s worth the crit chance once all other options have been reviewed.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The dueling tree gives perms fury as minor. Phantasmal fury runes augments in addition to this.

So a 20% increase for you and your phants + phantasmal fury = 40%

Percentage increases on us do not affect our phantasms… Fury, sigil of force, sigil of accuracy, the trait fragility, etc all have no affect on our illusions.

Mikkel.8427:

Percentage increases on us do not affect our phantasms… Fury, sigil of force, sigil of accuracy, the trait fragility, etc all have no affect on our illusions.

Something I hope will get “fixed” eventually. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of Mesmer balancing was done under the assumption that they do work with our illusions. See also: Danger Time.

If they fixed the use of multipliers on phantasms (which they should) mesmer DPS may finally be more acceptable in PvE…

Embolism.8106:

Mikkel.8427:

Percentage increases on us do not affect our phantasms… Fury, sigil of force, sigil of accuracy, the trait fragility, etc all have no affect on our illusions.

Something I hope will get “fixed” eventually. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of Mesmer balancing was done under the assumption that they do work with our illusions. See also: Danger Time.

It’s actually probably easier to balance things without working them in, because then you can just adjust the base values related to the phantasms without having to consider the entire system.

Though there would be plenty of neat (probably OP) things you could do if it was all like that :D

I agree with Pyro’s post.

Currently in PvE I would take any other class over mesmer (yes even ranger) if there was already a guardian in the party. Considering everyone and their mum, daughter has a guardian and all new players seem to get insta given a guardian at conception I find his analogy completely correct here.

I don’t even think alacrity is going to make it that much more popular either given how much current classes do without sacrificing damage to do it.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

He gripes but he uses it.

No. No you do not -_-u

He admits the inherent flaws. Even sheds tears over them. And still uses it.

If he wants to use it, ok, cool, I don’t really care. Yet we’re discussing the semantics of competence.

BTW, quoting names doesn’t necessarily amount to anything, though your propensity to do it is notable. I get you want to dismiss the point because I’ve contradicted two “names” (Helseth/Supcutie), but I dismissed Helseths opinions on “Scepter AA clone spam becoming the new Mesmer meta” in the same fashion. I.e. on principled grounds.

So yeah, names, cool.

The point to all this was, you faulted Alpha for not running it (for a second time as your post stated), yet there’s profoundly strong reasons for him not to take DD and profoundly strong reasons to just take Phant Fury instead.

Oh and ahh, I’ve also noticed you seem to interchange between WvW and PvP builds (the build linked was a WvW setup btw). You made some comment before about upping Phant crit chance from 70% to 90% which, while more plausable in WvW, isnt the case in any PvP meta build. You’re talking assassin trinket + accuracy sigil, or a mes/pack rune (instead of vamp). Some combination of “non-meta” anyway, in an argument you’re making under the guise of “meta”.

I’m really not you just aren’t thinking straight.

The dueling tree gives perms fury as minor. Phantasmal fury runes augments in addition to this.

So a 20% increase for you and your phants + phantasmal fury = 40%

I dismiss the trait in alpha’s build because the phantasm they use do not multi hit.

It is a shatter build, one extra bleed every 8 seconds is inconsequential. Increasing the crit rate of the phants for whatever power damage they have is miniscule when you are talking about the difference between 70% and 90%

The minor trait in dueling tree gives “perma fury” to the mesmer. Phantasms take their precision from the mesmers base stats. Unless that has changed. So Fury on the Mesmer does not stack with fury on the phantasm.

The only good argument you make against Phant Fury is that his phantasms are single hit in a condi build, but this is no reason to take a bad trait choice. Especially not in WvW where being locked out of stealth is a death sentence. Furthermore, even in a condi build, a couple k damage from an iWarlock is nothing to be waved away. It’s worth the crit chance once all other options have been reviewed.

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

I said that, not Ross. And I was wrong about Fury because it doesn’t increase your Precision.

That was less than a month post-release, by the way.

apharma.3741:

Currently in PvE I would take any other class over mesmer (yes even ranger) if there was already a guardian in the party. Considering everyone and their mum, daughter has a guardian and all new players seem to get insta given a guardian at conception I find his analogy completely correct here.

I don’t even think alacrity is going to make it that much more popular either given how much current classes do without sacrificing damage to do it.

OTOH, don’t underestimate the effect of follow-the-leader. The (beta) world-first Vale Guardian team included an Alacrity Chrono, so I expect PUG groups to copy their template for at least a couple of months.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

Did Fury used to give precision? Because that’s what that post seems to be relying on. As Embolism says, “any boons that change your stats directly…will indirectly boost your Illusions too.”
But Fury doesn’t change your stats directly, it changes your crit chance. Just like Sigil of Accuracy, Fury as it is right now shouldn’t have any impact on your phantasm’s crit chance.

In practice, I’ve found this to be true: my iDuelist stacks up the average bleeds that it’s expected to not counting my personal Fury.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

Did Fury used to give precision? Because that’s what that post seems to be relying on. As Embolism says, “any boons that change your stats directly…will indirectly boost your Illusions too.”
But Fury doesn’t change your stats directly, it changes your crit chance. Just like Sigil of Accuracy, Fury as it is right now shouldn’t have any impact on your phantasm’s crit chance.

In practice, I’ve found this to be true: my iDuelist stacks up the average bleeds that it’s expected to not counting my personal Fury.

No it didn’t, I just didn’t test it by getting 80% crit chance then seeing if Illusions can still fail to crit while I have Fury. I did that later and it turns out they could, so I was wrong.

Embolism.8106:

I said that, not Ross. And I was wrong about Fury because it doesn’t increase your Precision.

That was less than a month post-release, by the way.

I can’t keep track of who is who I am on a phone. Increases the size of the text only makes things above the text box visible.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Embolism.8106:

I said that, not Ross. And I was wrong about Fury because it doesn’t increase your Precision.

That was less than a month post-release, by the way.

I can’t keep track of who is who I am on a phone. Increases the size of the text only makes things above the text box visible.

You can probably notice posting dates though. Citing a 3 year old post as ‘being unsure about a mechanic’ definitely falls into the realm of ‘absurd arguments that can be laughed at’.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Embolism.8106:

Mikkel.8427:

Percentage increases on us do not affect our phantasms… Fury, sigil of force, sigil of accuracy, the trait fragility, etc all have no affect on our illusions.

Something I hope will get “fixed” eventually. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of Mesmer balancing was done under the assumption that they do work with our illusions. See also: Danger Time.

It’s actually probably easier to balance things without working them in, because then you can just adjust the base values related to the phantasms without having to consider the entire system.

Though there would be plenty of neat (probably OP) things you could do if it was all like that

They would just need to replace Phantasmal Fury and Phantasmal Strength with new traits, then make fury function the same as might does now (Illusions get our increased stats, but nothing from might they receive directly). Then decrease the baseline mod they gave phantasms from 15% to 5% (since that was intended to make up for phantasms wielding exotic weapons).

We dont have access to many modifiers on mesmer to begin with, so they really wouldnt be that much more powerful than they are now without heavy investment. Especially when you factor in the prerequisites required to maintain them, and each being in a different trait line (meaning no chrono if you want them all).

Fragility – 12.5%
Compounding Power- 9%
Harmonious Mantras (This trait would be a little less horrible)- up to 15%

Sigils-
Force- 5%
Night- 10%

Runes-
Scholar- 10%

So… with three illusions out at night spamming mantras on a mob with 25 vuln while our health is above 90% your Phantasms would be able to get up to a 61.5% modifier!
Of course, you need to factor in that they just lost about 25% potential from their last iteration… so its closer to 36.5% more than they’re capable of doing now.

woot woot

Embolism.8106:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

Did Fury used to give precision? Because that’s what that post seems to be relying on. As Embolism says, “any boons that change your stats directly…will indirectly boost your Illusions too.”
But Fury doesn’t change your stats directly, it changes your crit chance. Just like Sigil of Accuracy, Fury as it is right now shouldn’t have any impact on your phantasm’s crit chance.

In practice, I’ve found this to be true: my iDuelist stacks up the average bleeds that it’s expected to not counting my personal Fury.

No it didn’t, I just didn’t test it by getting 80% crit chance then seeing if Illusions can still fail to crit while I have Fury. I did that later and it turns out they could, so I was wrong.

Then I was wrong on that front as well. But this only serves to enhance the benefit of the trait in PvP, especially given that two prominent mesmers would run it over phantasmal fury.

This isn’t meta battle, this isn’t name dropping. This is me saying that the statement was made about competence and I trust the competence of these individuals over Ross. Or Fay or Alpha. No amount of theorycrafting will replace practical experience at high tournament levels. I appreciate the judgement of the former in PvE where damage and situations can be meticulously controlled.

As for the rabid build, to spec for less than 1k extra damage from any of the phantasms is a preposterous waste. It almost seems like people would rather take an innocuous trait with no real merit in PvP rather than face the l2p issues of the trait. I get it, DD can mess you up, but in most PvP situations at a higher level it is more helpful than harmful.

Daniel Handler.4816:

This isn’t meta battle, this isn’t name dropping. This is me saying that the statement was made about competence and I trust the competence of these individuals over Ross. Or Fay or Alpha. No amount of theorycrafting will replace practical experience at high tournament levels. I appreciate the judgement of the former in PvE where damage and situations can be meticulously controlled.

I don’t take exactly what the pros take, and I don’t advise you to, either. Not being a pro, I can’t manage everything they can. The pros don’t always take PU (often, not always), but I can rarely manage without it. This is because the technical skill required to do without is not something I have achieved. As much to say that players in a MOBA should always take the highest skillcap champion, because that’s what the pros play, ignoring that they play it because they actually have enough skill to fill out that skillcap. My experience with Desperate Decoy is based on practical experience, and as my skill improves, I will periodically test different kits, obviously.

Mefiq.7039:

As for the rabid build, to spec for less than 1k extra damage from any of the phantasms is a preposterous waste. It almost seems like people would rather take an innocuous trait with no real merit in PvP rather than face the l2p issues of the trait. I get it, DD can mess you up, but in most PvP situations at a higher level it is more helpful than harmful.

I’m amused that they’d say it’s for the extra damage, but I woudn’t take PF for the extra damage. I take it for the improved chance to get a bleed when I summon iMage, to provide a little bit of cover condi for my shatter burst. It seems to have made a difference in fights here and there, and more importantly I don’t have to deal with the liabilities of Desperate Decoy.

When you don’t want people pestering you for wells.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Embolism.8106:

I said that, not Ross. And I was wrong about Fury because it doesn’t increase your Precision.

That was less than a month post-release, by the way.

I can’t keep track of who is who I am on a phone. Increases the size of the text only makes things above the text box visible.

You can probably notice posting dates though. Citing a 3 year old post as ‘being unsure about a mechanic’ definitely falls into the realm of ‘absurd arguments that can be laughed at’.

You have never proven your merit in PvP or WvW as long as I have been a member of this forum. What you gave proven is your ability to perform reductio ad absurdum. This post was one of your more blantant examples.

The high skill ceiling to mesmers is directly related to the number of instant/or low cast times. While a mesmer does not have to monitor skill cooldowns as much as an engie/ele, the PvP mesmer has a comparative level of difficulty to the S/D elementalist. Adding to this is the high relative level of combat awareness and pet monitoring they must maintain.

This is why classes like mesmer and thief are difficult to play in upper level pvp. There is a potential for wasted combat moves that will get you killed in the fight, if poor awareness does not get you first.

I apologize but when I said that it was the better trait I meant that context. It is perfectly suitable for casual play.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Embolism.8106:

I said that, not Ross. And I was wrong about Fury because it doesn’t increase your Precision.

That was less than a month post-release, by the way.

I can’t keep track of who is who I am on a phone. Increases the size of the text only makes things above the text box visible.

You can probably notice posting dates though. Citing a 3 year old post as ‘being unsure about a mechanic’ definitely falls into the realm of ‘absurd arguments that can be laughed at’.

You have never proven your merit in PvP or WvW as long as I have been a member of this forum. What you gave proven is your ability to perform reductio ad absurdum. This post was one of your more blantant examples.

chuckles

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

This isn’t meta battle, this isn’t name dropping. This is me saying that the statement was made about competence and I trust the competence of these individuals over Ross. Or Fay or Alpha. No amount of theorycrafting will replace practical experience at high tournament levels. I appreciate the judgement of the former in PvE where damage and situations can be meticulously controlled.

I don’t take exactly what the pros take, and I don’t advise you to, either. Not being a pro, I can’t manage everything they can. The pros don’t always take PU (often, not always), but I can rarely manage without it. This is because the technical skill required to do without is not something I have achieved. As much to say that players in a MOBA should always take the highest skillcap champion, because that’s what the pros play, ignoring that they play it because they actually have enough skill to fill out that skillcap. My experience with Desperate Decoy is based on practical experience, and as my skill improves, I will periodically test different kits, obviously.

Mefiq.7039:

As for the rabid build, to spec for less than 1k extra damage from any of the phantasms is a preposterous waste. It almost seems like people would rather take an innocuous trait with no real merit in PvP rather than face the l2p issues of the trait. I get it, DD can mess you up, but in most PvP situations at a higher level it is more helpful than harmful.

I’m amused that they’d say it’s for the extra damage, but I woudn’t take PF for the extra damage. I take it for the improved chance to get a bleed when I summon iMage, to provide a little bit of cover condi for my shatter burst. It seems to have made a difference in fights here and there, and more importantly I don’t have to deal with the liabilities of Desperate Decoy.

Who on earth is mefiq?

And I apologize, as it is the tendency of people who main PvE to debate those who make sub optimal suggestions of min max usefulness, I do so for PvP.

If you do not have the technical ability to play at that level you should practice until you do. PU can be unforgiving when stressed in pvp environment.

But perhaps I have been biased by discouraging extreme adherence to the PvE meta but advocating the opposite for PvP. I only do so because the one situation is more controlled by a far margin and the only difference between a win and a loss in the former is time and patience.

Dont fight guys… save it for the ‘ZOMG MESMOR OP’ posts. Its not like those are in short supply.

Mikkel.8427:

Dont fight guys… save it for the ‘ZOMG MESMOR OP’ posts. Its not like those are in short supply.

You can ignore strangers easier than the taunts of your own community. The class may be troped as trolls but even trolls have standards.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Embolism.8106:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

Did Fury used to give precision? Because that’s what that post seems to be relying on. As Embolism says, “any boons that change your stats directly…will indirectly boost your Illusions too.”
But Fury doesn’t change your stats directly, it changes your crit chance. Just like Sigil of Accuracy, Fury as it is right now shouldn’t have any impact on your phantasm’s crit chance.

In practice, I’ve found this to be true: my iDuelist stacks up the average bleeds that it’s expected to not counting my personal Fury.

No it didn’t, I just didn’t test it by getting 80% crit chance then seeing if Illusions can still fail to crit while I have Fury. I did that later and it turns out they could, so I was wrong.

This isn’t meta battle, this isn’t name dropping. This is me saying that the statement was made about competence and I trust the competence of these individuals over Ross. Or Fay or Alpha. No amount of theorycrafting will replace practical experience at high tournament levels.

While I agree 100% on practical experience, I don’t agree about high tournament levels. Though maybe I would if I had the time and opportunity to enter them ;) (bonus points for picking up the actual, subtle suggestion there).

Interestingly enough, everybody has access to practical experience, and you never have to enter a tournament to gain access to it :)

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Embolism.8106:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

Did Fury used to give precision? Because that’s what that post seems to be relying on. As Embolism says, “any boons that change your stats directly…will indirectly boost your Illusions too.”
But Fury doesn’t change your stats directly, it changes your crit chance. Just like Sigil of Accuracy, Fury as it is right now shouldn’t have any impact on your phantasm’s crit chance.

In practice, I’ve found this to be true: my iDuelist stacks up the average bleeds that it’s expected to not counting my personal Fury.

No it didn’t, I just didn’t test it by getting 80% crit chance then seeing if Illusions can still fail to crit while I have Fury. I did that later and it turns out they could, so I was wrong.

This isn’t meta battle, this isn’t name dropping. This is me saying that the statement was made about competence and I trust the competence of these individuals over Ross. Or Fay or Alpha. No amount of theorycrafting will replace practical experience at high tournament levels.

While I agree 100% on practical experience, I don’t agree about high tournament levels. Though maybe I would if I had the time and opportunity to enter them (bonus points for picking up the actual, subtle suggestion there).

Interestingly enough, everybody has access to practical experience, and you never have to enter a tournament to gain access to it

I see, where does your practical experience come from then? Learning every chess move by heart will not make you a Chessmaster. This is a case of qualia, some practical experience must be experienced not read about.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Embolism.8106:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

Did Fury used to give precision? Because that’s what that post seems to be relying on. As Embolism says, “any boons that change your stats directly…will indirectly boost your Illusions too.”
But Fury doesn’t change your stats directly, it changes your crit chance. Just like Sigil of Accuracy, Fury as it is right now shouldn’t have any impact on your phantasm’s crit chance.

In practice, I’ve found this to be true: my iDuelist stacks up the average bleeds that it’s expected to not counting my personal Fury.

No it didn’t, I just didn’t test it by getting 80% crit chance then seeing if Illusions can still fail to crit while I have Fury. I did that later and it turns out they could, so I was wrong.

This isn’t meta battle, this isn’t name dropping. This is me saying that the statement was made about competence and I trust the competence of these individuals over Ross. Or Fay or Alpha. No amount of theorycrafting will replace practical experience at high tournament levels.

While I agree 100% on practical experience, I don’t agree about high tournament levels. Though maybe I would if I had the time and opportunity to enter them ;) (bonus points for picking up the actual, subtle suggestion there).

Interestingly enough, everybody has access to practical experience, and you never have to enter a tournament to gain access to it :)

I see, where does your practical experience come from then?

-_-u

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Embolism.8106:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

Did Fury used to give precision? Because that’s what that post seems to be relying on. As Embolism says, “any boons that change your stats directly…will indirectly boost your Illusions too.”
But Fury doesn’t change your stats directly, it changes your crit chance. Just like Sigil of Accuracy, Fury as it is right now shouldn’t have any impact on your phantasm’s crit chance.

In practice, I’ve found this to be true: my iDuelist stacks up the average bleeds that it’s expected to not counting my personal Fury.

No it didn’t, I just didn’t test it by getting 80% crit chance then seeing if Illusions can still fail to crit while I have Fury. I did that later and it turns out they could, so I was wrong.

This isn’t meta battle, this isn’t name dropping. This is me saying that the statement was made about competence and I trust the competence of these individuals over Ross. Or Fay or Alpha. No amount of theorycrafting will replace practical experience at high tournament levels.

While I agree 100% on practical experience, I don’t agree about high tournament levels. Though maybe I would if I had the time and opportunity to enter them (bonus points for picking up the actual, subtle suggestion there).

Interestingly enough, everybody has access to practical experience, and you never have to enter a tournament to gain access to it

I see, where does your practical experience come from then?

-_-u

Your emotive punctuation does nothing to express that not only you have learned mesmer pvp, but also synthesized it using actual experience to inform intuition . If this were rytlock, even Alissah or chaos it would be a different story. Then again ryts balls to the wall aggression did not make him beat hesleth. So it is still hard to say.

Daniel, you have been a piece of kitten the entire time I’ve been on this forum, and you continue to be a piece of kitten now. Just so you know.

The truth tea Ross has been serving in this thread is strong and bitter with extra lemon. Just the way I like it!

I see the pros of DD. It should be just as easy to see its inherent flaws. I don’t typically take it because unless you’re timing the CD, it can be highly situational… and not in a good way sometimes. Again… emphasis on its “sometimesiness”. It’s either REALLY kitten good as Daniel says or it’s REALLY kitten bad as others have pointed out.

Must this discussion overwrite a perfectly good thread?

Back to core Mesmer builds that are better fit for a particular role or objective than Chronomancer.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Embolism.8106:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

Did Fury used to give precision? Because that’s what that post seems to be relying on. As Embolism says, “any boons that change your stats directly…will indirectly boost your Illusions too.”
But Fury doesn’t change your stats directly, it changes your crit chance. Just like Sigil of Accuracy, Fury as it is right now shouldn’t have any impact on your phantasm’s crit chance.

In practice, I’ve found this to be true: my iDuelist stacks up the average bleeds that it’s expected to not counting my personal Fury.

No it didn’t, I just didn’t test it by getting 80% crit chance then seeing if Illusions can still fail to crit while I have Fury. I did that later and it turns out they could, so I was wrong.

This isn’t meta battle, this isn’t name dropping. This is me saying that the statement was made about competence and I trust the competence of these individuals over Ross. Or Fay or Alpha. No amount of theorycrafting will replace practical experience at high tournament levels.

While I agree 100% on practical experience, I don’t agree about high tournament levels. Though maybe I would if I had the time and opportunity to enter them (bonus points for picking up the actual, subtle suggestion there).

Interestingly enough, everybody has access to practical experience, and you never have to enter a tournament to gain access to it

I see, where does your practical experience come from then? Learning every chess move by heart will not make you a Chessmaster. This is a case of qualia, some practical experience must be experienced not read about.

Poor choice of example. Theoretically being able to learn every single chess move by heart would absolutely make you a Grandmaster, as it would allow you to fully analyse any match. Obviously pedantic, but as long as we’re playing that way, I figure it’ll fit right in.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Embolism.8106:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you sure about fury? Because you don’t seem to be.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-crit-chance-do-the-illusions-have/first#post85481

Nothing had changed in three years to my knowledge.

Did Fury used to give precision? Because that’s what that post seems to be relying on. As Embolism says, “any boons that change your stats directly…will indirectly boost your Illusions too.”
But Fury doesn’t change your stats directly, it changes your crit chance. Just like Sigil of Accuracy, Fury as it is right now shouldn’t have any impact on your phantasm’s crit chance.

In practice, I’ve found this to be true: my iDuelist stacks up the average bleeds that it’s expected to not counting my personal Fury.

No it didn’t, I just didn’t test it by getting 80% crit chance then seeing if Illusions can still fail to crit while I have Fury. I did that later and it turns out they could, so I was wrong.

This isn’t meta battle, this isn’t name dropping. This is me saying that the statement was made about competence and I trust the competence of these individuals over Ross. Or Fay or Alpha. No amount of theorycrafting will replace practical experience at high tournament levels.

While I agree 100% on practical experience, I don’t agree about high tournament levels. Though maybe I would if I had the time and opportunity to enter them (bonus points for picking up the actual, subtle suggestion there).

Interestingly enough, everybody has access to practical experience, and you never have to enter a tournament to gain access to it

I see, where does your practical experience come from then? Learning every chess move by heart will not make you a Chessmaster. This is a case of qualia, some practical experience must be experienced not read about.

Poor choice of example. Theoretically being able to learn every single chess move by heart would absolutely make you a Grandmaster, as it would allow you to fully analyse any match. Obviously pedantic, but as long as we’re playing that way, I figure it’ll fit right in.

No. Just be sure you know every chess move does not mean you can fully analyze even match. Synthesis is the key, a person who knows all the colours in the rainbow would not necessarily have strong artistic talent. A person who speaks a language fluently is not always good at making poetry.

True that competent sports coaches do not have to originally have been players themselves but those who aren’t run with thousands of numbers in data to back up decisions.

So when ross questioned the competency of people including myself I finally asked him for his qualifications.

tobascodagama.2961:

Daniel, you have been a piece of kitten the entire time I’ve been on this forum, and you continue to be a piece of kitten now. Just so you know.

I don’t know who you are. I do know that you are strange in my book. This aspect of the conversation started after ross said

Anyone suggesting it as meta, or running it as such has poor judgement and should be dismissed.
Edit:.. with love.

Editing it late enough that I only noticed the edit upon looking back right now.

If I am whatever moniker you wish to use for questioning the accuracy of such claims and whether the person who claimed has knowledge in the area, then so be it.

My defense would be that [spoil] at least I engage people head on, rather than resorting to insults direct or implied. I use descriptive language because humans are equals and deserve clear communication when using a format that is already at a clarity disadvantage.

I was here before Pyro was banned and after. He was constantly rude to people on numerous occasions under the pretense of how exasperated he was with what he self identified as trolls or wastes of time. I can still appreciate them for their theoretical analysis. But I also grimace at many of their actions.

Alpha was similarly rude but they had the decency to back up claims as much as possible with mathematical evidence. And their propensity to be rude was far less than Pyro. They have a similarly high level of theoretical analytic skills as Pyro but with much less ego. I can tolerate them the vast majority of the time.

Then you have ross who I know comparatively little about beyond this conversation. What I see from this discussion is that they take after pyro more than alpha. Whether they have the theoretical analytic ability I will have to experience more to grasp. If they don’t I doubt I would find them tolerable to read in a debate.

Last you have Daniel Handler aka kentigem. An anti PvE mesmer with an immense disliking for those who engage in insults. Their ego prevents them from admitting defeat and they have a tendency to start debates before fully analysing all available data. They have a tendency to attempt to police rules when the forums are supposed to be a relaxed setting. Any other attributes for myself are up to you to assign or contest. Likewise for the above portrayals of certain forumgoers.[/spoil]

But as I believed I’ve explained acting like a kittenhead is not a monopoly.

The importance of the thread is more important than any of my posts within it. So if mods do find my behaviour as unseemly as you do I would prefer they delete my individual posts and infrac me rather than locking the thread.

Returning to an earlier idea, what would the content of new elite specs have to contain to compete with Chronomancer? My head can only think of a melee spec that converts the phantasm to attacked generated by the mesmer and the subsequent dps increase places the Mesmer at warrior tier or higher.

Edit: I apologize for the length of the post my attempts to use spoiler have been in vain.

Then you have ross who I know comparatively little about beyond this conversation. What I see from this discussion is that they take after pyro more than alpha. Whether they have the theoretical analytic ability I will have to experience more to grasp. If they don’t I doubt I would find them tolerable to read in a debate.

Hey hey hey! Pyro has nothing of my charm, and alpha can’t even compare to me in vibrancy and range of colour!

:D

Oh, and I didn’t think calling Dhandler a piece of kitten was called for. I mean, you may have disagreed with him, but he wasn’t a duck about it.

tobascodagama.2961:

apharma.3741:

Currently in PvE I would take any other class over mesmer (yes even ranger) if there was already a guardian in the party. Considering everyone and their mum, daughter has a guardian and all new players seem to get insta given a guardian at conception I find his analogy completely correct here.

I don’t even think alacrity is going to make it that much more popular either given how much current classes do without sacrificing damage to do it.

OTOH, don’t underestimate the effect of follow-the-leader. The (beta) world-first Vale Guardian team included an Alacrity Chrono, so I expect PUG groups to copy their template for at least a couple of months.

Yeah but those guys are the type of idiots that take 3 mesmers into fractals utilising all exploits and complain it took a while because someone new to them wasn’t in the “exploit the kitten out of this” mentality.

Yes, I have seen multiple people still think Mesmer is awesome for PvE and they think it does great dps. Hell look at the number of “mesmer 2 stronk” posts where they complain damage is too high and the dps needs lowering.

It also doesn’t change the fact that mesmer now sucks in PvE and is only there for an alacrity bot maybe in the future while doing poor damage.

Edit:
To expand on this here is why you bring certain classes.

Guard: Projectile mitigation, cleanses, stability, stun breaks, blocks, blinds, heal, protection with little loss on DPS.

Warrior: Group offensive buffs like banners, EA, PS for 25 might for all, warbanner, various unblockable attacks and a few tricks with little loss on DPS.

Elementalist: Stupidly high dps, water fields if needed, earth elemental tank, vuln stacker, blinds, cleanses, heal (depending on build), used to be icebow, lots of invuln rezzing and other tricks it can do to carry.

Thief: Stealth for skipping, rezzing, party heal whatever. Good vuln stacker, 50% fury and swiftness with steal, AoE vigor and great field blaster with good DPS.

Engineer: Vulnerability stacker, projectile mitigation, AoE heals, water fields, blasts, defiance stripper, weakness and can pretty much change on the fly to do anything you need with little loss on DPS.

Revenant (soon): AoE boons like fury, might, regen, boon extend, high dps, can get upto -80% damage taken for any unblockable have to tank damage. Very versitile and quite frankly will be great.

Thing about Chronomancer is that alacrity has to bring the party DPS/survivability up to or greater than slotting another high DPS class that has the utility that is needed. At the moment it’s looking like that’s true but if alacrity gets nerfed or alacrity sharing is nerfed mesmer will be completely out of PvE except portal bot.

apharma.3741:

tobascodagama.2961:

apharma.3741:

Currently in PvE I would take any other class over mesmer (yes even ranger) if there was already a guardian in the party. Considering everyone and their mum, daughter has a guardian and all new players seem to get insta given a guardian at conception I find his analogy completely correct here.

I don’t even think alacrity is going to make it that much more popular either given how much current classes do without sacrificing damage to do it.

OTOH, don’t underestimate the effect of follow-the-leader. The (beta) world-first Vale Guardian team included an Alacrity Chrono, so I expect PUG groups to copy their template for at least a couple of months.

Yeah but those guys are the type of idiots that take 3 mesmers into fractals utilising all exploits and complain it took a while because someone new to them wasn’t in the “exploit the kitten out of this” mentality.

Yes, I have seen multiple people still think Mesmer is awesome for PvE and they think it does great dps. He’ll look at the number of “mesmer 2 stronk” posts where they complain damage is too high and the dps needs lowering.

It also doesn’t change the fact that mesmer now sucks in PvE and is only there for an alacrity not maybe in the future while doing poor damage.

This is a worry I have as well. I don’t think a single mesmer would care nearly as much about alacrity sharing if the base sustained dps of mesmer weren’t so low. It’s hard to imagine future specs beyond ones designed differently to fix this problem with the base class.

It’s pretty hard to make a correct statement about places specisalizations have right now, since when they add the new spec it looks really shiny in a vacuum but the older ones won’t have that glamour ( :p ) of newness that makes it stand out in our minds.

However, I think it’s safe to say that the speed-based boons and effects are very powerful.

I’ll throw my two cents in with many others. The reason Chonomancer seems better than base mesmer is because so many things we’ve been asking for as base mesmers were given to chronomancers. In my opinion, Illusionary Reversion and Chronophantasma should be in the Illusions trait line as they make shatters more bearable. Mesmers shouldn’t have to pay for using their class skills. Time Marches On should be in Inspiration so every mesmer, elite spec or not, will has access to it. If they make those changes, I don’t think Chronomancer would be seen as an upgrade anymore.

As for me, of my 6 mesmers, possibly 2 of them will become chronomancers. My main will because the shield and wells provide a lot of aoe. I might rework my bleed condi one into a slow/interrupt build, should we get runes that prolong slow. My confusion condi and bunker will stay base as their builds work better with the default traitlines.