Guild Wars 2

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

dank.3680:

I just have to say, Warriors pay a similar price. There are several traits tied to how much adrenaline they have and so it is not “free” to just throw it away and get nothing (missing burst skill blow all adren) now have less healing, less crit etc… Same type of trade-off.

They also have to use skill/utility/heal or get damaged to get adrenaline.

Yes, a huge number of warrior traits are tied into adrenaline. There are a lot of things adrenaline can be used for. Condi cleansing, burst damage, and even restoring itself. My point is that even if warriors never trait anything for adrenaline, they will still have those skills available to use when the time comes.

Anet has never said “We want warriors to use adrenaline” – duh, why would they! It’s obvious that adrenaline is a huge benefit to a warrior. Yet Anet has said more than once “We want mesmers to shatter more”. There is a reason for that. A reason why mesmers use their class mechanic less than all other classes.

No disrespect, but effing DUH! That’s the entire point. That’s why our shatters have been so immensely buffed with all of our baseline stuff as well as the ability to trait for multiple shatter traits… It is now VERY lucrative to shatter no matter what build you’re playing in most cases. There is a lot less drawback from shattering than there was before the revamp. That is a fact.

Personally I don’t think Anet should worry about what playstyle people choose to have – all they need to worry about is balance. If as a mesmer I never shatter, that should be none of Anet’s concern. I feel uneasy when they talk about imposing a particular style of play on me.

The class mechanic is to shatter. It’s not about playstyle, but more about basic design. It is inherently bad design in and of itself if for whatever reason, we are discouraged to shatter. For 3 years now, we have been discouraged to shatter. Even our best build (power) was limited because of the design.

What they’re imposing on you 3 years later is what it should have been at the start. Sorry you’re having trouble adjusting.

I feel the mesmer is not defined only by shatter, but also by phantasms, clones and (maybe) mantras. It’s a very weird philosophy of Anet’s if they care about people’s playstyles! How does it matter to anyone?

I don’t think you read my post. It’s not about playstyle. It’s about reinforcing the basic design of the class that was poorly implemented in the beginning and for the last 3 years. The Mesmer is not defined by Mantras (classes are starting to share utilities via specializations; see Wells) but by illusions and shattering. Think Lyssa the dual goddess and the Chaos line. Mesmer has always been a “pull & push” kind of profession.

If that is truly the case – if you truly believe that shatters are the defining aspect of the mesmer, then I think it’s very sad that mesmers are the only ones with a mechanic that actively harms them by destroying phantasms. I mean sure, you get benefits, but you lose something as well. The mesmer is the only class that needs to make these “short term vs long term” decisions.

It’s all very well for those who trait to shatter. But if Anet sticks to its philosophy, then for people like me (a full 3 clone shatter does around 1.5k damage), it’s a complete game breaker, merely because I choose to use other class mechanics. And why? Because my playstyle doesn’t like risk.

You’re essentially saying “Mesmer is the high risk profession”? And why should it be that way? Any class should be able to be risky if it wants…or to be tanky if it wants. No class should be slotted into a given playstyle.

There’s no argument about what is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. You’re apparently the only one in the dark about this. Illusions and the shattering of such is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. We’re going in circles with the discussion, and I don’t care to repeat myself.

Like I said before, phantasm builds are in a great state right now both in PvE and PvP even. Click on the build in my signature, Hermetic Inscriptions, for a fantastic current example of such. There are plenty of phantasm build options right now. I don’t really know what else you want out of this discussion. lol

MailMail.6534:

There’s no argument about what is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. You’re apparently the only one in the dark about this. Illusions and the shattering of such is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. We’re going in circles with the discussion, and I don’t care to repeat myself.

Like I said before, phantasm builds are in a great state right now both in PvE and PvP even. Click on the build in my signature, Hermetic Inscriptions, for a fantastic current example of such. There are plenty of phantasm build options right now. I don’t really know what else you want out of this discussion. lol

What I want is not for the community. The purpose of my post is to inform Anet not to keep pushing us to shatter. Who knows what changes they might make next?

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

There’s no argument about what is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. You’re apparently the only one in the dark about this. Illusions and the shattering of such is the defining mechanic of the Mesmer profession. We’re going in circles with the discussion, and I don’t care to repeat myself.

Like I said before, phantasm builds are in a great state right now both in PvE and PvP even. Click on the build in my signature, Hermetic Inscriptions, for a fantastic current example of such. There are plenty of phantasm build options right now. I don’t really know what else you want out of this discussion. lol

What I want is not for the community. The purpose of my post is to inform Anet not to keep pushing us to shatter. Who knows what changes they might make next?

What you want is a different class with a different defining class mechanic. There’s 7 others. 8 when HoT comes out.

Softspoken.2410:

This reminds me of Rangers who really hate having an animal partner in combat.

lol i didnt read the past 2 pages but i had the same thought

shatter is mesmers niche and it doesnt necessarilly have to play like a “zerk shattr build” which is what im assuming the average player thimks the moment they hear “shatter” brought up

but shatter utility is necessary for a mes and should be useful in all mes builds and thats y simce patch of of 6/23 the mes’ f1-f4 kitten is in a better state as oppose to pre-patch bc shattering is more useful now in all builds thx to reworked traits (emphasis on “more”) although it could still use more utility

wars got the burst skills
thief n steal
necro n 2nd hp bar
etc

Dealing with and creating opportunity costs is a part of playing mesmer and it has been since GW1.

Never availing of the option to shatter has serious consequences too. When your phantasms are getting cleaved out, you no longer have the option of converting them into beneficial instants.

When someone dodges your mind wrack, this does not mean your illusions are wasted. It depends entirely on what you traded for that dodge and in some situations it will be a good trade. In many ways, you will be trading damage for defensive cooldowns and vice versa. Good players will try not to get hit but you can still come out ahead if you make the right trades.

Not shattering at all places too much importance on phantasm damage/utility. Its great when you can free cast from elevation with warlock out and a tonne of conditions on your target. By all means, try to get as much mileage out of your phantasms in situations where you are allowed to do so.

However, phantasms are easy targets. They are highly visible and visually distinct from you. They have low hp and are easily cleaved out. Their spawn location and positioning is not precise and beyond your control.

Phantasm based builds are inherently disadvantaged in conquest where you will often find yourself contesting a capture point 1v1, 2v1 and 1v2. Fighting in a small area is where cleave wrecks your illusions and you don’t have the luxury of passive offense. You have to try and get something from your illusion summoning skills before they die (and they will often die quickly).

The more heavily traited you are into phantasm, the more reliant you become on unreliable AIs. When players know you are running phantasm, they can and will target them, knowing you are weak without them.

godz raiden.2631:

tobascodagama.2961:

godz raiden.2631:

Wait, you just basically said that the mechanics of mesmer don’t fit your playstyle, but other professions’ mechanics do. Then why are you playing mesmer? I suppose you’ll argue that you like the mesmer more than other classes for other reasons other than class mechanics and playstyle, from a PvP/competitive stand point that argument doesn’t really hold water.

I mean, to be fair, we are the only class with pink butterflies.

That’s true. I concede. Phantasms should not be destroyed by shatter skills. Had the OP just said this, I would have agreed. :P

This is actually gonna be a thing!
Am so excite!!

SpookyPoo.8135:

This is actually gonna be a thing!
Am so excite!!

That there’s a pretty cool thing.

I am also excite. Very excite!

Have to agree with TC and I do indeed disagree with his dissenters.

Three years of GW2 think about it three entire years and Anet decides to start axing playstyle in some false pretense of a visions? This would’ve been fine at launch but you don’t start axing away at a class after three entire years. What makes it worse is the elite specializations as the chronomancer itself is a heavily shatter based build. When they first announces them you’d think Anet were planing on changing the effect per class. But they didn’t and what people call focusing on each classes core mechanic I call the start of neutering the classes. A mesmer is a mesmer now they hardly differ as you know they will shatter which wasn’t always the case. Soon cloth will all be the same we are getting necro wells after all and leather and plate and after that were looking at something like WoW where there is no class identity. The Mesmer lost some of it’s identity as there is only shatter and it doesn’t matter what they claim to be they will be a shatter build.

What makes it worse is that every other class has a more passive ability that can be molded in many different ways. While the Mesmer shatter isn’t versatile at all it’s not passive like an ele/rang/guard and not adaptable like Shroud/Rang nor can it really be ignored like thief. Also it doesn’t change at all like War or Eng and thus Mesmer have the most to lose in this regard. I picked Mesmer because I liked the utilities, style, and skills but we’ve always gotten the short end of the stick and this is no different.

Doam.8305:

Mesmer shatter isn’t versatile at all

Uh, you’re kidding, right?

ASP.8093:

Doam.8305:

Mesmer shatter isn’t versatile at all

Uh, you’re kidding, right?

He probably means you can’t choose which illusions get shattered and which ones don’t. It’s an “all or nothing” kind of deal. And since some are useful and some aren’t, you can throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I never thought of shattering as the class mechanic. Always seemed illusions and clones took that title. Shattering is simply a branch of it. Use as needed.

Of course, I played PU so I’m a bit more reliant on clones. Speaking of PU, I never understood why people always gripe about it being poor at capturing points. Yes, stealth and buffs, but it’s easier to just use stealth for starting and ending fights, especially now that stealth has been increased while the buffs have not.

Edit: Haven’t played my mesmer since update so not sure how the extra damage flying around is effecting PU builds. Could see why you might use stealth more if the pressure is hard enough.

What Kury said about shatter.
A lot of people are walking in insisting that shatter is “the mechanic” for mesmers, when I’ve always felt that clones/phantasms were the first distinguishing factor, with shatter as essentially a second mechanic.
Kind of like thieves and steal. So many people are insisting that steal is the Thief’s class mechanic, but they are wrong, aren’t they?
The primary Thief mechanic is initiative, and the opportunity it provides to spam abilities. Taking away initiative would be far more devastating to thief play than taking away steal.

Similarly, shatter is an outgrowth of illusions, that happens to be extendable to be a viable primary focus. But saying that shatter is what really makes Mesmers distinctive is a bit ignorant, isn’kitten

Frankly, shatter builds make me feel like just another nuke mage. I might as well play an elementalist, or go play WoW again.

Insta-shattering your illusions makes the illusions kind of superfluous, just another, more complicated, kind of cooldown.

Allowing your phantasms to make one attack and then shattering them makes your phantasm skill just another damaging weapon ability that you incidentally have to cast first before you can throw your nuke.

If I prefer the first class mechanic (illusions that deal damage) over the second class mechanic (turning illusions into bullets), why is that not okay?

bhagwad.4281:

You cannot defend yourself anyway! Your insta 300k attack is not a defensive skill. It is offensive.

All offensive skills are by definition defensive. This is because all offensive skills carry the threat of being used, which is defensive. When I fight other thieves, I’m really cautious about using heartseeker through black powder because I’m worried about it being interrupted. As soon as they used steal or are blinded though, I can ignore that fear and heartseeker away because they no longer have the threat of using their offensive skill (steal/headshot).

bhagwad.4281:

Whether it misses or loses, you have the same defense you did before. Not sure how using it puts you in a worse position

Neither the US nor the USSR were willing to use their nuclear weapons due to the threat of mutual assured destruction. Nuclear weaopns are clearly offensive weapons. However, the threat of nuclear retaliation prevented one side from using their own nukes, as this would cause the other side to retaliate. That is to say, the possessing of offensive weapons prevented an attack. That is defense. The owning of offensive weapons acts as a deterrent (defense) against an enemy. The threat of my 300k skill keeps the enemy at bay. He may avoid me, might run away, might fight extremely cautiously, because one slip up and he could be dead. But as soon as my skill misses, the threat of instant death disappears and my enemy will drop his inhibitions and easily kill me as I no longer have any way of defense. A little cliched, but the best defense is a good offense.

bhagwad.4281:

Next, a necro doesn’t really lose his other skills on entering DS because he can exit death shroud at any time if he needs those skills. You might want to play necro just a little bit to understand how it works. Just create a new necro character and try out DS skills. You’ll see that a necro is not locked into DS at any time.

You misunderstand. Yes, the necro can switch out at any time, but what I mean is that the necro cannot immediately use his weapon skills. He has to leave death shroud then use them. That puts death shroud on CD. That prevents him from using his death shroud skills because he had to leave. This is another opportunity cost (Do I want to enter death shroud? Because if I do and I then need my staff skills I just screwed myself).

bhagwad.4281:

In fact, your examples of “opportunity cost” illustrate that you don’t really understand what I’m referring to. I’m saying “the act of using a class mechanic like steal” has no opportunity cost. Sure, you can choose to steal this, or you can choose to steal that. Not the point. When I say “steal itself has no opportunity cost”, what I mean is that by using it you don’t lose health, you don’t lose defence, you don’t lose power, or boons.

I see the problem. You are using the incorrect definition of opportunity cost. Opportunity cost by definition encompasses “I could’ve stolen this or that”. You’re incorrect in that steal does not cost you health or defense or power. Opportunity cost include damage that you take that you would’nt have taken had you not stolen or had stolen from someone else, and includes damage I could’ve dealt had I not stolen or stolen from someone else. If I steal and it puts me in melee range of a warrior and that warrior hits me, that is opportunity cost. I wouldn’t have taken that damage, and it is therefore an opportunity cost, it is just not expressed immediately. I’m sorry, but you need to learn what opportunity cost actually is. You are absolutely wrong when you say that

bhagwad.4281:

In economic terms, there is no opportunity cost to you using steal.

because there is choice. In any scenario given a resource and choices of what to do with it, there will always be an economic opportunity cost. I’m sorry but you are wrong—you are using the incorrect definition of opportunity cost. Please drop this idea and use the correct definition of opportunity cost.

bhagwad.4281:

In fact, every decent thief has a trait that gives might, fury and swiftness regardless of whether or not steal succeeds.

I’m pretty sure I wasn’t using that trait before 6/23

bhagwad.4281:

1. Consider thief A and thief B
2. Thief A has access to Steal
3. Thief B has no access to the steal skill at all
4. Thief A uses steal
5. Thief B has nothing
End result: Thief A is at the very least equal to thief B. Most likely he’ll be better off because of the boons, and if he lands it, then all kinds of nice things happen as well.

I can prove your analogy flawed by finding a single example of where thief A will be worse off if he steals.

Thief A is 1100 range away and has 2 health. Thief B’s steal is on CD and he has 20k health. Thief A will die if he steals, so he definitely will not be “better off” if he steals.

bhagwad.4281:

Ergo: Steal is a free additional utility with no cost.

False, it has an opportunity cost, in fact, i listed an example above where steal is bad if yo use it. If there really was no way to be worse off by stealing, then thieves would be spamming steal on CD. The reason they don’t is that they are wasting resources. They would be inflicting opportunity costs upon themselves because they are potentially ignoring some of steal’s benefits: teleport, daze, boon strip.

Archon.6481:

bhagwad.4281:

1. Consider thief A and thief B
2. Thief A has access to Steal
3. Thief B has no access to the steal skill at all
4. Thief A uses steal
5. Thief B has nothing
End result: Thief A is at the very least equal to thief B. Most likely he’ll be better off because of the boons, and if he lands it, then all kinds of nice things happen as well.

I can prove your analogy flawed by finding a single example of where thief A will be worse off if he steals.

Thief A is 1100 range away and has 2 health. Thief B’s steal is on CD and he has 20k health. Thief A will die if he steals, so he definitely will not be “better off” if he steals.

bhagwad.4281:

Ergo: Steal is a free additional utility with no cost.

False, it has an opportunity cost, in fact, i listed an example above where steal is bad if yo use it. If there really was no way to be worse off by stealing, then thieves would be spamming steal on CD. The reason they don’t is that they are wasting resources. They would be inflicting opportunity costs upon themselves because they are potentially ignoring some of steal’s benefits: teleport, daze, boon strip.

No one is forcing thief A to steal . Thief A has the “option” to steal. It’s not a thief class mechanic that steal is used automatically after CD.

Archon.6481:

Analogy with US/USSR is flawed because there was an equilibrium situation that was beneficial to annotation. In a 1v1, one has to live and one has to die. Two opponents in conquest will not be happy just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

You either kill or be killed. Living peacefully in tension is not an option.

In such a situation, your 300k skill is no defence at all. Use it and have a 50% chance to win. Don’t use it and you die since you have no other defence and the other guy will simply run you down and kill you.

Now you tell me which is better? A 50% chance to win, or 0 chance to win? The alternative of peacefully watching each other does not exist.

Archon.6481:

Yes, the necro can switch out at any time, but what I mean is that the necro cannot immediately use his weapon skills.

When you say “immediately”, what do you mean? The time it takes to exit death shroud is instantaneous. So you must be referring to the milliseconds it takes to press the DS key and get back normal skills yes? And DS being on CD has nothing to do with it since we’re talking examining two necros – one with the ability of DS and one without DS. Who is better off do you think?

Archon.6481:

I see the problem. You are using the incorrect definition of opportunity cost.

That depends on how you’re framing the problem. If you’re looking at the facet of who/when to use steal then you’re right. If you’re looking at the facet of ever using steal at all (regardless of whom), then I’m right. I’m framing the problem in terms of the latter, not the former.

I think you’re deriving your entire argument from the fact that steal brings you closer to your opponent. Just to hammer this point home, if steal didn’t teleport you and instead left you where you were, would you still be thinking this way?

Let’s look at the necro then – tell me…what is the downside or opportunity cost to a necro going into DS? Remember – we’re talking about the act of entering DS itself – not the time at which it’s entered. In other words, imagine 2 necros – one with DS and one without. The one with DS enters it and exits it immediately afterwards. Is the one who used DS paying a price that puts them in a worse position than the necro who doesn’t have DS?

Now ask that same question of the warrior’s adrenaline skill. If you’ve made it this far into my reasoning, I think you’ll see the point I’m getting at.

Also, consider that in terms of a thief’s steal, closing the gap to your opponent can be a good thing or a bad thing (most of the time when you use steal you indeed want to get closer, but let’s pretend for the sake of argument).

However, the disappearance of a mesmer’s illusions is always a bad thing. There is literally no situation in which a mesmer will say “I wish my illusions were dead for no other benefit”.

Hence the mesmer is in a worse position than the thief. Because most of the time you want to get close to your opponent using steal. If Anet were to tomorrow change the functionality of steal to “no longer teleports you”, most thieves would call it a nerf. But regardless of that, a mesmer’s shatter skills always impose an immediate an unequivocal cost.

How do you factor in illusions dying from just being there? Why not shatter?

denis.9487:

How do you factor in illusions dying from just being there? Why not shatter?

Honestly with 2-3 illusions out, it’s not easy for me to see their health at all times. Not to mention that if they indeed get hit, they they die too quickly for me to shatter them. Usually I spawn my duelist well away from the action. They provide me with constant ranged DPS at a safe distance. The warden on the other hand is meant to be right in the middle of the action. I hide inside its reflects against a number of classes, and also to protect myself against stealthed thieves who hesitate to take damage to get to me.

Now I can shatter the warden because it doesn’t last too long, but that would mean my duelist would run in and die as well. Since my duelist is my source of long term pressure from far, shattering would mean I lose that benefit. If I could choose which illusions live and which ones die when I shatter, that would be much more beneficial. But as things stand, they all get taken out – the useful ones and the almost dead ones.

Op, if you dont like your class’s best mechanic, you obviously dont like your class. I suggest turret engineer for you, it will suit your playstyle better.

With these arguments, as well as ArenaNet’s statements, there needs to be a clearer distinction between “using Shatter abilities” and the PvP full-shatter burst builds. Any decent mesmer will use F4 if the alternative is certain death, F1/2 on PvE mobs that are about to die anyway or their favourite way of securing stomps in 1v1 PvP. Emphasising shatters beyond “well, my illusions are gonna vanish anyway” simply doesn’t work if the target might survive the shatter, such as against tanky wvw specs or literally any PvE mob that takes any damage from illusions.

Aenesthesia.1697:

Op, if you dont like your class’s best mechanic, you obviously dont like your class. I suggest turret engineer for you, it will suit your playstyle better.

With the game in its current state that is a completely stupid suggestion. Thing is, with the way GW2 plays as a whole, mesmer illusions are the best AI/“pet”. Because they’re designed to be expendable from the bottom up.

bhagwad.4281:

However, the disappearance of a mesmer’s illusions is always a bad thing. There is literally no situation in which a mesmer will say “I wish my illusions were dead for no other benefit”.

It’s only nitpicking but technically, there are a few bouncing attacks which would fizzle and deal less damage if you weren’t close enough to any illusions, like Mirror Blade.