Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Dondagora.9645

Dondagora.9645

Simply put, it doesn’t feel like it has a strong focus. Holosmith and Deadeye have a clear idea of what they want to be: Holosmith is the lightsaber (an analogy the devs made with it), where you build it from three distinct parts. Deadeye is the sniper, focused on long-range combat.

Mirage doesn’t feel like a specialist in anything. It doesn’t, as I said, “specialize”. Sure, we can say that it has a clear condi focus, but that isn’t as important as simply knowing what it is meant to be.

The Devs have introduced the idea of being able to deceive enemies and become one with clones, but it feels as if Mirage only fulfils that 20% with the Mirage Cloak and the Axe #3 skill.

The Deception skills don’t contribute to the supposed focus of Mirage to deceive. For one, they don’t even provide any clone generation for a spec that has a lot to do with clones, nor effect clones that much, for that matter.

We’re never even given any incentive to deceive the enemy either. Clone-death traits that people want are part of it: Why would we be more incentivized to attempt to fool people than we were before? Deadeye, for instance, has powerful damage at long range, at the cost of its combat mobility, thus incentivizing it to fight at range.

Mirage is a vague concept, not a solid picture. It isn’t specialized, its still a sprinkle in every direction. It doesn’t go all-in towards its premise.

This, in my mind, is what differentiates a good Elite Spec from a bad one, besides just damage or tuning. In my humble opinion.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Tiresias.6473

Tiresias.6473

The spec is clunky and is more of a burden on the Mesmer than the enemy.

It’s also worse than Chronomancer in almost every way.

Main character: Winter Harvest (Necromancer)
[BICE] Black Ice / Maguuma Server

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

It’s also worse than Chronomancer in almost every way.

There, FTFY.

;)

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Ryouzanpaku.1273

Ryouzanpaku.1273

Mirage is a vague concept, not a solid picture.

Exactly this!

I was very hyped about Mirage – finally spec with strong personal DPS and less support role… well not.

My position is now as follows:
- I will not play Mirage if AN will not change it a LOT
- I will play Scourge if AN will not nerf it too much

Player plays the game. MetaKitten plays the DPS meter on the golem.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Levetty.1279

Levetty.1279

What are you talking about? The focus of the mirage is a name and an art asset they wanted to use. How is that not a good idea? /s

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

Mirage is weak because it’s a build that is supposed to spam dodge like a daredevil but doesn’t have the endurance regeneration to make that possible. Also the skills you get for using dodge are all terrible. It’s as simple as that.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Curunen.8729

Curunen.8729

Mirage is weak because it’s a build that is supposed to spam dodge like a daredevil but doesn’t have the endurance regeneration to make that possible. Also the skills you get for using dodge are all terrible. It’s as simple as that.

Nail on head.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Dondagora.9645

Dondagora.9645

What are you talking about? The focus of the mirage is a name and an art asset they wanted to use. How is that not a good idea? /s

It hurt me so bad when I heard them say that. So proudly, too.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Zelse.9780

Zelse.9780

Mirage is weak because it’s a build that is supposed to spam dodge like a daredevil but doesn’t have the endurance regeneration to make that possible. Also the skills you get for using dodge are all terrible. It’s as simple as that.

This. Mirage is basically a cop out of a thief. How unoriginal. I’m very disappointed with the devs and how the mirage was created. Mirage spec just doesn’t cut it from the other elite specializations. Being as frail as we already are, you want us to go into the fray with a terrible dodge mechanic a terrible heal, and a terrible elite? I found myself having to use blink and 3 jaunts to RUN AWAY from using the axe that ANET gave us. Like what are they thinking?

With the “new” dodge mechanic you think we would be given all the necessities much like the daredevil to restore our endurance and increase our max endurance bar. BUT NOPE.

I really just hate how this class has no sense of identity compared to the other classes and how flawed this dodge mechanic is. YET we are the ones that get nerfed with our main mechanic ambush being nerfed. WHY? we have nothing else going for us so why nerf what we are actually good at this specialization? which I presume condi. Yet ANET assumes that “oh that is too much condi lets nerf that” yet you have a Deadeye or Holosmith one shot you or practically anyone, and yet they don’t get touch? like are you serious? This class has absolutely nothing going for it. I heard it was the first elite spec to be created and it shows, because the further you get to the list the better the classes are.

ANet needs to go back and revise a lot of what the mirage actually is. The class as a whole in terms of self identification. I really don’t want to play a thief style when our core build was an assassin anyway, or if you want to play a thief, then just make a thief. As well as their role of group play, and the ability to actually survive in these harsh environments now that we have to get up and personal with our targets.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Allarius.5670

Allarius.5670

I think “deception” is a misnomer because of all the potential interpretive baggage that comes with it. It would be more clear if the developers ceased using the word, or similarly ambiguous phrases, to describe what they are talking about and instead used specific mechanics and context. “Detarget and reposition alongside illusions to provide localised target saturation” is more meaningful and less open to ambiguity than “deceive your opponent” or “maintain the illusion you are a clone”. It wouldn’t sound as cool , but it would certainly clear up some of the issues the playerbase has with respect to Mesmer and accurate in-game functionality.

If Holosmith is a customizable weapon and Deadeye is a sniper, Mirage is its namesake: something that appears to be there but isn’t. Mirage is the opponent that is there but doesn’t seem to be there because attacks move through them, they were actually a clone, or they are suddenly elsewhere.

Look no further than Mirage’s primary asset, Mirage Cloak. It enables the Mesmer to continue performing its actions while avoiding attacks. Other aspects enable more Mirage Cloak (endurance gain and Mirage Mirrors) and/or provide specialized mobility and trickery to obtain similar functionality.

This is the same sort of thing as using Distortion to avoid damage while casting and attacking or using Phase Retreat to suddenly reposition while performing another action or gain some positional advantage. The idea is to enable more of this. It doesn’t necessarily mean more damage, but rather a playstyle shift to allow for more aggressive and/or more elusive play independent of any specific weapon selection because of increased access to avoidance.

Mesmer is already really good at defending itself while assaulting because of the de-centralised mechanics of illusions and shatters on top of various instant cast skills. Thief through the eyes of Mesmer is even more of this with arguably more flexibility because of greater potential access and not being locked into a singular attack type (Daredevil).

Mirage specializes in avoiding incoming negative effects while continuing to perform its actions unhindered. This isn’t as obvious or in your face as laser swords or high range high pressure assaults. How useful this is and whether or not it enables new or improved roles is going to depend on interpretation, usage, and final numbers adjustments. Thematically, for a profession with the identity of “utility caster” it seems pretty appropriate.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Dondagora.9645

Dondagora.9645

I think “deception” is a misnomer because of all the potential interpretive baggage that comes with it. It would be more clear if the developers ceased using the word, or similarly ambiguous phrases, to describe what they are talking about and instead used specific mechanics and context. “Detarget and reposition alongside illusions to provide localised target saturation” is more meaningful and less open to ambiguity than “deceive your opponent” or “maintain the illusion you are a clone”. It wouldn’t sound as cool , but it would certainly clear up some of the issues the playerbase has with respect to Mesmer and accurate in-game functionality.

If Holosmith is a customizable weapon and Deadeye is a sniper, Mirage is its namesake: something that appears to be there but isn’t. Mirage is the opponent that is there but doesn’t seem to be there because attacks move through them, they were actually a clone, or they are suddenly elsewhere.

Look no further than Mirage’s primary asset, Mirage Cloak. It enables the Mesmer to continue performing its actions while avoiding attacks. Other aspects enable more Mirage Cloak (endurance gain and Mirage Mirrors) and/or provide specialized mobility and trickery to obtain similar functionality.

This is the same sort of thing as using Distortion to avoid damage while casting and attacking or using Phase Retreat to suddenly reposition while performing another action or gain some positional advantage. The idea is to enable more of this. It doesn’t necessarily mean more damage, but rather a playstyle shift to allow for more aggressive and/or more elusive play independent of any specific weapon selection because of increased access to avoidance.

Mesmer is already really good at defending itself while assaulting because of the de-centralised mechanics of illusions and shatters on top of various instant cast skills. Thief through the eyes of Mesmer is even more of this with arguably more flexibility because of greater potential access and not being locked into a singular attack type (Daredevil).

Mirage specializes in avoiding incoming negative effects while continuing to perform its actions unhindered. This isn’t as obvious or in your face as laser swords or high range high pressure assaults. How useful this is and whether or not it enables new or improved roles is going to depend on interpretation, usage, and final numbers adjustments. Thematically, for a profession with the identity of “utility caster” it seems pretty appropriate.

First: if Deception were just re-targetting, they could’ve 1) given us more than one skill that did it, and 2) gave us stealth, which already does it. So that’s an awfully narrow idea of what the Mirage’s deception is meant to be.

Second: If Mirage did this well, maybe that explanation would be acceptable, but it feels like 50% of Mirage doesn’t do this. Mirage Cloak is the singular example you can give, but Mirage Mirrors are counter-intuitive to this. Instead of an enemy coming to the Mirage, the Mirage must go to the Mirror, and thus are not really optimizing their defense/offense in any significant margin due to this lack of control over their positioning.

Clones are also meant to signify Mirage-ness, no? Going somewhere and finding it was just nothing all along? Well, this is more to the point of “no clone support on the Mirage” besides IH.

Simply put, if the Mirage wants to go for “Becoming the illusion”, it needs to up its game and focus its traits on making the Mirage more non-existent or give more ways to fool around with clones. So far, it goes 20% in this direction with Mirage Cloak.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

Mirage is a vague concept, not a solid picture.

Exactly this!

I was very hyped about Mirage – finally spec with strong personal DPS and less support role… well not.

My position is now as follows:
- I will not play Mirage if AN will not change it a LOT
- I will play Scourge if AN will not nerf it too much

What ever its issues in pvp theres no dought this thing will be viable dps in pve.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Levetty.1279

Levetty.1279

Mirage is a vague concept, not a solid picture.

Exactly this!

I was very hyped about Mirage – finally spec with strong personal DPS and less support role… well not.

My position is now as follows:
- I will not play Mirage if AN will not change it a LOT
- I will play Scourge if AN will not nerf it too much

What ever its issues in pvp theres no dought this thing will be viable dps in pve.

Pls don’t spread lies.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Allarius.5670

Allarius.5670

My goal was to try and help clear up the questions originally posted in so far as I saw them. These questions appeared to be “what is the Mirage’s focus” and “what does the Mirage specialize in”. I was not providing commentary as to whether or not its current toolset was sufficient to achieve this. Although I disagree with the idea Mirage is a vague concept or a bad elite spec, it in no way invalidates anyone else’s opinion.

I apologize for being unclear and leaving the impression that deception means only to detarget and reorient already existing target saturation assets. What I was trying to say is that “deception” as an idea isn’t useful when trying to answer the posed questions because “deception” is too broad a concept for many to agree on.

For example, if Decoy forced retargeting onto the clone would it be deceptive? Some would say yes because stealth masks movement and action, and the retargeting momentarily distracts the player. Someone else would say no because an experienced player knows that the sudden change in behaviour indicates activation of the skill and to anticipate stealthed behaviour based on in-game context.

If someone asked me what Chronomancer’s focus and specialization was, I would say “lower the impact of cooldowns and snares to allow the Mesmer to do more of the same”. I wouldn’t say resummon Illusions upon shattering, even though it can elect to do so, and I wouldn’t necessarily comment on how effectively it could achieve that if someone asked for a basic understanding of what it was trying to do.

Putting aside any notion of deception, what does Mirage do? What does it enable baseline via minor traits? Mirage Cloak, a way to regain endurance to get more Mirage Cloak, and a touch of superspeed on Mirage Cloak. That is the core of what Mirage is meant to provide. This is why I focused on using Mirage Cloak as an example, because it is the quintessential element of the Mirage spec. If you are trying to understand Mirage broadly and on a basic level, look no further.

Outside of Shards of Glass, the player absolutely has control in the placement of Mirage Mirrors. The Mirage specializes in Mirage Cloak and what it can do. Mirrors provide an additional way to obtain Mirage Cloak, but may not actually be flexible enough to provide adequate utility, especially without adopting a playstyle that aims to capitalise on them.

Someone else described Infinite Horizon as a red herring when trying to interpret Mirage identity, and this is a pretty good description. Infinite Horizon provides a way to let illusions avoid attacks and simultaneously gain access to a new skill. It shares Mirage Cloak with Illusions, what a player does with that is up to them.

Detarget and illusion reposition skills do just that. They provide the utility to move illusions around without resummoning them and provide a situation where it may be necessary for opponents to weed through illusions to retarget the Mesmer.

If the Chronomancer is about casting more, the Mirage is about casting unhindered. Maybe it doesn’t do enough of that yet, but its identity seems pretty clear when you put aside all the talk of deception and pretending to be a clone.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: musu.9205

musu.9205

My goal was to try and help clear up the questions originally posted in so far as I saw them. These questions appeared to be “what is the Mirage’s focus” and “what does the Mirage specialize in”. I was not providing commentary as to whether or not its current toolset was sufficient to achieve this. Although I disagree with the idea Mirage is a vague concept or a bad elite spec, it in no way invalidates anyone else’s opinion.

I apologize for being unclear and leaving the impression that deception means only to detarget and reorient already existing target saturation assets. What I was trying to say is that “deception” as an idea isn’t useful when trying to answer the posed questions because “deception” is too broad a concept for many to agree on.

For example, if Decoy forced retargeting onto the clone would it be deceptive? Some would say yes because stealth masks movement and action, and the retargeting momentarily distracts the player. Someone else would say no because an experienced player knows that the sudden change in behaviour indicates activation of the skill and to anticipate stealthed behaviour based on in-game context.

If someone asked me what Chronomancer’s focus and specialization was, I would say “lower the impact of cooldowns and snares to allow the Mesmer to do more of the same”. I wouldn’t say resummon Illusions upon shattering, even though it can elect to do so, and I wouldn’t necessarily comment on how effectively it could achieve that if someone asked for a basic understanding of what it was trying to do.

Putting aside any notion of deception, what does Mirage do? What does it enable baseline via minor traits? Mirage Cloak, a way to regain endurance to get more Mirage Cloak, and a touch of superspeed on Mirage Cloak. That is the core of what Mirage is meant to provide. This is why I focused on using Mirage Cloak as an example, because it is the quintessential element of the Mirage spec. If you are trying to understand Mirage broadly and on a basic level, look no further.

Outside of Shards of Glass, the player absolutely has control in the placement of Mirage Mirrors. The Mirage specializes in Mirage Cloak and what it can do. Mirrors provide an additional way to obtain Mirage Cloak, but may not actually be flexible enough to provide adequate utility, especially without adopting a playstyle that aims to capitalise on them.

Someone else described Infinite Horizon as a red herring when trying to interpret Mirage identity, and this is a pretty good description. Infinite Horizon provides a way to let illusions avoid attacks and simultaneously gain access to a new skill. It shares Mirage Cloak with Illusions, what a player does with that is up to them.

Detarget and illusion reposition skills do just that. They provide the utility to move illusions around without resummoning them and provide a situation where it may be necessary for opponents to weed through illusions to retarget the Mesmer.

If the Chronomancer is about casting more, the Mirage is about casting unhindered. Maybe it doesn’t do enough of that yet, but its identity seems pretty clear when you put aside all the talk of deception and pretending to be a clone.

frankly , this is like playing words.
if mirage is about casting unhindered , what about ambush ? and those long cast time on utilities ? not to mention shatter and phant .
anet did not make its aim clear , we really shouldn’t mash something up and call that a solid purpose . it doesn’t help .

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Allarius.5670

Allarius.5670

@musu

That doesn’t feel like a fair criticism to me. Does Well of Gravity directly help with the Chronomancer theme of casting more? It can be made to by granting alacrity via traits, but that requires traiting and a playstyle shift to stand in it and it certainly doesn’t do it baseline.

Aside from granting Mirage Mirrors, Deception skills provide specialized mobility tools. Is it a big stretch to see how offensive and defensive repositioning can use position to remove hindrances to casting?

I agree ambush isn’t a direct fit outside of thematic alternate Thief mechanics and a way to introduce other skills and any associated utility or offense they may provide as another level of tuning.

Alternate interpretation is going to sound like playing with words, all I can do is try to provide explanation of my reasoning. I make no comment on its purpose or role, only what I think it appears to want to do.

I agree with the lack of clarity from Anet in statements and interviews. In one of the interviews a developer describes the Mirage as being the ultimate multitasker, but many seem more fixated on their statement about pretending to be a clone. None of that is particularly useful.

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Curunen.8729

Curunen.8729

I think “deception” is a misnomer because of all the potential interpretive baggage that comes with it. It would be more clear if the developers ceased using the word, or similarly ambiguous phrases, to describe what they are talking about and instead used specific mechanics and context. “Detarget and reposition alongside illusions to provide localised target saturation” is more meaningful and less open to ambiguity than “deceive your opponent” or “maintain the illusion you are a clone”. It wouldn’t sound as cool , but it would certainly clear up some of the issues the playerbase has with respect to Mesmer and accurate in-game functionality.

If Holosmith is a customizable weapon and Deadeye is a sniper, Mirage is its namesake: something that appears to be there but isn’t. Mirage is the opponent that is there but doesn’t seem to be there because attacks move through them, they were actually a clone, or they are suddenly elsewhere.

Look no further than Mirage’s primary asset, Mirage Cloak. It enables the Mesmer to continue performing its actions while avoiding attacks. Other aspects enable more Mirage Cloak (endurance gain and Mirage Mirrors) and/or provide specialized mobility and trickery to obtain similar functionality.

This is the same sort of thing as using Distortion to avoid damage while casting and attacking or using Phase Retreat to suddenly reposition while performing another action or gain some positional advantage. The idea is to enable more of this. It doesn’t necessarily mean more damage, but rather a playstyle shift to allow for more aggressive and/or more elusive play independent of any specific weapon selection because of increased access to avoidance.

Mesmer is already really good at defending itself while assaulting because of the de-centralised mechanics of illusions and shatters on top of various instant cast skills. Thief through the eyes of Mesmer is even more of this with arguably more flexibility because of greater potential access and not being locked into a singular attack type (Daredevil).

Mirage specializes in avoiding incoming negative effects while continuing to perform its actions unhindered. This isn’t as obvious or in your face as laser swords or high range high pressure assaults. How useful this is and whether or not it enables new or improved roles is going to depend on interpretation, usage, and final numbers adjustments. Thematically, for a profession with the identity of “utility caster” it seems pretty appropriate.

Very well said.

I would like them to go further in enabling this theme and type of gameplay, because personally I’m bored and fed up with shatter bombing everything – it’s so monotonous. Power and condi shatter are both stale at this point – one revolves around blowing stuff up with GS2 and F1, the other involves mashing every shatter to condi burst. I don’t want to have another elite spec that just enables that type of gameplay in a different way – I’d like an entirely different type of gameplay.

Yes, more damage is good to have in order to be effective, but the method in producing that damage ought to be unique and fun – I want more mind games, more trickery and deception with more sustained damage (which looks to be in the form of conditions) at the expense of support and maybe frequency of burst application (ie no alacrity or F5).

(edited by Curunen.8729)

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: musu.9205

musu.9205

@musu

That doesn’t feel like a fair criticism to me. Does Well of Gravity directly help with the Chronomancer theme of casting more? It can be made to by granting alacrity via traits, but that requires traiting and a playstyle shift to stand in it and it certainly doesn’t do it baseline.

Aside from granting Mirage Mirrors, Deception skills provide specialized mobility tools. Is it a big stretch to see how offensive and defensive repositioning can use position to remove hindrances to casting?

I agree ambush isn’t a direct fit outside of thematic alternate Thief mechanics and a way to introduce other skills and any associated utility or offense they may provide as another level of tuning.

Alternate interpretation is going to sound like playing with words, all I can do is try to provide explanation of my reasoning. I make no comment on its purpose or role, only what I think it appears to want to do.

I agree with the lack of clarity from Anet in statements and interviews. In one of the interviews a developer describes the Mirage as being the ultimate multitasker, but many seem more fixated on their statement about pretending to be a clone. None of that is particularly useful.

but tbh GW is not anything close to ambush attack which is one of the core mechanics from mirage. and wells from chrono was for the theme of time mage , they tick and countdown time then the final effect.

for the aim of mirage , we could focus on : mirror , dodge and ambush attack .
and they should interact with mes core mechanic – shatter in some way .
other skills could just stick to the theme of mirage and be useful .

like i said in other thread ,i don’t know if anet actually believe that they are making mesmer more tricky and deceptive by making its harder to figure which is real mesmer .but IT WILL NEVER WORK and it will be too gimmick for balance ,easy to fool newbies and useless against skilled players ,which mes already suffer from .

and we did see they were trying to do this with mirage again . I feel as long as anet consider mes as "fool your enemy " type , mirage and future mesmer elite spec will have same problem again and again .

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: musu.9205

musu.9205

my idea for mirage would be :
1. core use dodge as a resource through mirror , plan ahead for burst or long defensive evade
2. shatter phant will create mirror , active f5 to consume all mirrors with short cd , for each mirror consumed mesmer itself gain bonus and clone .
3.shatter skill will explode nearby mirror ,gain bonus effect and grant mesmer ambush attack .

Why I feel Mirage feels so weak

in Mesmer

Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Yeah I was thinking that, too. I’d maybe even remove all the Ambush rubbish (let’s be honest, most of them make you wish they wouldn’t temporarily replace the AA…), and just go Mirrors and Mirrors and Mirrors.

Keep the restricted Dodge (since we can get access to tons of dodges with enough ways to produce Mirror), and go wild on them.

As you said, shattering Phantasms should creative mirrors at the very lines. I also feel enemies touching Mirrors should result in damage + a clone spawning.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.