Guild Wars 2

How the mesmer was made in GW2 is almost a textbook example of what NOT to do in designing, and the mistakes made on this class are typically seen in newbie companies, but I didn’t expect it from an industry veteran like Anet which seemed to have at least SOME willingness to learn from their design missteps in GW1.

The Mesmer is one of the most complicated classes, but that complexity doesn’t translate into depth. Its just complexity for the sake of complexity. Which not only runs counter to the design goal of making combat intuitive, but also runs against the goal of not creating noob traps.

The main problem is with clones, in that the huge majority of the time, there is no deception involved. If your enemy understands the mechanics of the mesmer, you can never use mirror image to fool your enemy into thinking you are one of the clones. Mirror image is used in such matchups simply to provide you with 2 shatters/diversions. But if that’s the case, why are they clones of you, why don’t they just look like another form of phantasms? What purpose could them being clones have other than to confuse noobs who don’t know how the Mesmer works?

Heck the only skills the Mesmer has that actually count as deception are Illusionary Leap and Decoy. Both skills imitate another action PRECISELY not allowing the enemy to know which action you have chosen, at least until one of the clones attacks them. You setting a decoy and running away looks identical to you just standing there casting 1. Skills like Phase Retreat and Mirror Image, however, don’t have an analogue so if you know all the skills of the Mesmer, you’ll know that if a Mesmer uses Phase Retreat, the Mesmer in the back is the real one, 100% of the time.

EDIT: I’m not saying Mesmer is “weak”. I’m saying they should have skills that deceive EVERYONE and skills that blatantly deceive NO ONE. Them having tons of skills that only deceive noobs is just bad design.

Its pretty much true, don’t get me wrong I’ve been on the wrong end of a good mesmer but the things people complain about like not being able to target the player are playability issues, you just need some ingenuity and even just a minor understanding of of the phantasms work to pick the correct one in a split second and that whole ‘defence’ is gone. Trying to lose yourself amongst the phantasms will outright not work on foes past rank 10.

I agree it is partly bad design to have something so confusing to new players but laughable to the experienced. I’d prefer if our illusions did not cause a target drop but instead were actually useful, another switch spell would be useful.

To be honest, clones are NEVER going to be a viable distraction tactic (other than a brief target loss) against decent sPvP targets. Even if marks, offhand weapons, etc didn’t give them away, AI would. There’s no way to make a computer behave that smartly. Not in an MMO like this anyway.

They work better in PvE, and even in WvW, where there’s too much chaos to easily stop and single someone out.

I look at it like I would some builds: some things don’t work in some situations. Clones are still useful to target dropping, distortion, shatters, conditions, etc.

I’m a little confused by these threads when they get posted over and over and over. Are you saying that there SHOULDN’T be a way to distinguish clones from the mesmer if they’re just attacking? How could that ever be balanced?

the uprising.6317

The main problem is with clones, the huge majority of the time, there is no deception involved. If your enemy understands the mechanics of the mesmer, you can never use mirror image to fool your enemy into thinking you are one of the clones.

So? The goal of clones is to make the opponent hesitate, even for a second or two for you to set up a couple casts like phantasms or even mantras. If he immediately knows where you are and goes straight for you, that’s when you break out your other skills. Chaos Storm yourself, Chaos Armor, Stuns, Leaps, Dodges, Blink, Decoy, etc. all the while your phantasms are dropping his health. He goes after your phantasms? Chaos Storm them and him and start widdling down his health with your own damage.

I see Mesmers as the reactive class – you change tactics based on what your opponent is doing or will do next. We’re not one trick ponies. We have multiple skills that can be used both defensively and offensively depending on the need for it, which means multiple layers of defense. “Haha which one is me!” may be the first thing a mesmer learns to do, but a good mesmer already assumes the opponent knows (or will know in the next 2.5 seconds) which one he is, and has already planned for when it happens.

the uprising.6317:

How the mesmer was made in GW2 is almost a textbook example of what NOT to do in designing, and the mistakes made on this class are typically seen in newbie companies, but I didn’t expect it from an industry veteran like Anet which seemed to have at least SOME willingness to learn from their design missteps in GW1.

And your expertise designing classes in the games industry is … ?

Oh right, you’re just another internet blowhard, sorry, carry on.

I think clones are fine, really. About all I could ask for is -slightly- better AI so they can avoid AoE. And even then, I don’t know how seriously I’m asking for that since it isn’t strictly -necessary-. Already, clones serve there purpose(s).

All I’m reading is…you want there to not be clones at all? Or you want them to be learning AIs that copy your normal behaviour? The second would be cool, I guess, if not broken. But, well, yeah, it would be broken (bad design lol) so you probably just don’t want clones but instead want more phantasms or other skills to replace them.

But, I don’t see much behind that either. You complain about mirror images, for example, but the skill still has a -very- good use in terms of breaking out of anything locking you up. Plus, you get two more clones out of it. Good deal? Yeah, good deal since those two clones will give you a few seconds -and- cause a condition, damage or give you distortion eventually. If you see a clone skill that is in no way a good deal, point it out since that -would- be bad design.

GW2’s mesmer takes a LOT of design features from the Allods online psionicist. The only real difference between the psi has a bigger focus on telekinetics, whereas mesmer only has a couple of weak telekinetics (illusory wave, into the void), and that mesmer can also fight in melee

The psion’s clone equivalent had a couple key differences.

Firstly it only worked on the victim, only the victim could see the illusory clone. Secondly, it rendered the ACTUAL psionic invisible to the victim. So it didn’t matter that the clone was an obvious deception; until he got rid of the clone he couldn’t physically target the real psi anyway.

GW2 seems to have copied some of the functionality (like the clone being inextricably tied to the victim, and dying when the victim dies), but not providing the same benefits (ie. the clone is visible to all and can be destroyed by all. The mesmer can still be directly targeted and the clones entirely ignored).

IMHO, they need to decide whether illusions exist purely kittenter fodder, or if they exist as decoys, and then focus on it.

If clones are shatter fodder then allow them to exist independently of a victim, they instead act as a swarm of weaponised mirror images that break easily.

If clones are decoys then make them serve better as such; perhaps have them serve as relays for the mesmer’s spellcasting so that his “spells” appear to come from the clones improving the deception

“Epitome of Bad Design” is a bit of an unhelpful exaggeration, surely?

If I understand your argument, you are saying that the main problem is that clones aren’t perfectly indistinguishable from the real player – but surely that is an example of good design?

If the simplest mechanics of a profession could consistently reduce the chance that an opponent’s attacks will actually work to 50/50 or worse without any strategy or skill on the part of the Mesmer, wouldn’t that be more of a problem? In such a scenario where the clones are always perfectly deceptive (rather than simply being confusing in certain situations or having the potential to deceive with skillful play) wouldn’t there have to be other balancing factors introduced to ensure that the profession works – such as significantly reducing the character’s offense, defense, the rate at which illusions can be used, or the length of time that they persist. I’m not sure the necessary balancing would result in a profession that is any more fun or challenging to play, personally.

It also reminds me of similar ‘issues’ that arise whenever the shine wears off a new class in any game – suddenly because the tactics have certain counters they are useless. I don’t think this is always the case.

That’s not to say I don’t think there are any design flaws – I think shatter lacks synergy and the profession can’t really make up its mind on whether it is a minion bomber pet class or a hex/denial/deception class – but it’s certainly not the worst design in the history of gaming by a long, long, long way.

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion of course and I enjoyed reading your feedback, but I’m afraid I must disagree.

Clones are useless for tricking your opponent if you’re moving in a way that makes you stand out, aka dodging and strafing. If you put a tiny bit of effort into mimicking your clones, often opponents will go after them instead of you. Obviously it doesn’t take long to figure out that the clone isn’t the Mesmer, but if a clone distracts somebody for even 1 hit, then it’s done it’s job and my chances of winning the fight increase dramatically.

I don’t really get what you want. We’re one of the strongest classes in PvP, and making clones harder to tell apart from the player would make us even stronger, which honestly doesn’t need to happen.

The concept that you could ever make an NPC look like a person is a somewhat flawed design sure. An even more flawed concept is you picking mesmer because you believed that was actually something that was viable.

Also— if you have a ton of trouble living as a mesmer because of getting the target over your head— decoy, and desperate decoy are amazing abilities.

The whole "epitome" thing is a bit of an exaggeration, truly.

Speaking as someone playing a Mesmer as a main, I sometimes feel that our clones are weak, both in PvP and PvE. Naturally, this isn’t how I feel about it all the time, but at occasion. Mainly because of the fact that clones in many cases fail to distract properly, which can be frustrating as the user of the clones. I also understand that in a PvP environment, Mesmers can be very strong.

Something that I would like to see, but that will probably not happen anytime soon would be clones mimicking player movement for a duration after they are spawned.

Imagine that after using Phase Retreat or Mirror Images that the clones move for a second or two in a manner that mirrors the player character (a clone going left when the player moves right), whereafter they stand still for the rest of their duration. This is from a staff-viewpoint, and other weapons will probably spawn clones that move in different patterns.

This might be sufficient to confuse in PvP, but not for long enough for it to be too much of an advantage. On the other hand, I’m not an avid PvPer and only play that game mode sporadically, so this might be entirely too powerful.

As for the suggestion of mimicking your illusions, it feels unhelpful as you spawn close to them in many cases, meaning that you will most likely take the sweeping blows from an enemy if you do mimic. This would effectively render the entire act useless, considering that you still take damage from something your clones were supposed to divert away from you.

Tbh i find a bit funny how lots of ppl say clones will never fool anyone, yet on sPvP i see everyone going after them. Sure, they wont fool them for long, but that was never intented, they are there to give you 2 secs of time, not more. Youll say, meh 2 secs only?? Well, when ppl realize who you are then you stealth, so its another 2 secs.
Of course fighting some1 who knows what mesmers can do its a lot harder, but theres still some ways to fool them.
I dont consider myself to be the best mesmer, lol not even a good one, imh im still quite noob with the class, yet ive been able to take down 3 players a couple of times (ok, they probably sucked, but still, they were 3 Vs 1)
As every skill in the mesmer arsenal i dont think clones are there to be shatered, they are situational, just like everything else. They can fool ppl for a lil time or they can deal dmg when needed or they can make you inmune if you are getting focused.
What mesmer may lack in raw power they get in options, at least thats how i see them.

If you complain about this then I highly recommend you don’t go for 100% world completion.

i’ve actually stopped my world completion and display “no title” simply to avoid giving my enemies 1 more way of finding me among my clones. hopefully they address the UI issues for mesmers in an upcoming patch.

Im not even reading OP’s post, his posting history speaks for itself.
Clearly a wow troll.

@ Ryuujin I actually like those suggestions a lot. Whichever road was taken. I am definitely leaning towards having clones mirror the casting of the Mes. That is not even unbalancing if anything since they are supposed to be clones, really a QoL (bug?) fix

“The epitome of bad design” is too strong, but Mesmers do have multiple design flaws. Namely:

- Shattering vs Keeping Illusions.
This decision is designed to have the player choose between which is better in a particular situation (a good mechanic), but is completely undermined by having to choose between the two when traiting. Once you’ve traited towards one or the other, you’re so heavily weighted towards your choice that there is no longer a decision to make.

- Inactive Illusion abilities
Your character performs no action for a full GCD when you summon a Phantasm or use several Illusion abilities (first activation of Illusionairy Leap). This is genuinely a poor design decision. Your character should perform that action as well as the Illusion (upon activating the skill – further illusion attacks would then be like an echo of the action). This would also shift power back to the player and away from the Phantasms themselves.

- Phantasms feel like pets
We’re not a pet class, but Phantasms play as if they are pets or turrets. It’s no fun to have so much of our damage come from Phantasms when we’re not really supposed to be a “summoner”.

The OP exaggerates heavily, and focuses on the wrong issue. Clones not genuinely imitating the player is a visual issue, and doesn’t make for poor design in and of itself. But the Mesmer does have several design issues that require more than just tweaking numbers.

Beothel.8420:

The OP exaggerates heavily,

Look at his posting history, lol.
He has done nothing but complain and troll

The OP isn’t worth a full breakdown and analysis, so I’ll explain something simple that really cuts things to the chase.

The argument that the Clones are crippling function to the class in PvP because they are not convincing duplicates of the player is completely, and utterly invalidated when you understand that the Clones themselves serve alternate functions.

We will start with the most simple function they provide: Fodder for Shatters. Most clone abilities are easily produced, and then easily disposable to be used in the shatter skill. Between Traits, utility skills, and the clone production skills on weapon bars, a Mesmer has a continual resource for shatter fodder to use when the oppertunity for them presents itself. Using them properly is a major skill hurtle for mesmers, however, and even I don’t claim to have the full use of them down for my particular build. However it is a mistake to beleive clones are useless on this mechanic alone.

However, that is not the sole mechanic that makes clones useful either. Each individual type of clone, dictated by our main hand weapon, also serves an alternate function.

Sword Clones still inflict vulnerability on the opponent and maintain close range for shatters.

Staff Clones use Winds of Chaos and further boons and conditions on the battlefield, which can build up at an amazing rate.

Scepter and Greatsword Clones fight at range, which can apply continual bleeds through the Sharper Images trait. (Available to all clones, but the ranged factor allows this to be more consistent.) On top of allowing themselves to preserve longer for chatters.

Additionally, several traits allow us to gain additional functions to our clones when they are killed, overwritten, or are used in shatters, regardless if they are mistaken for our true selves.

We are considered one of the most survivable Professions in the game due to depth of the clone mechanic, and also the most deadly, depending entirely on how we build.

I can understand the idea of wanting to get more from more specific clones such as scepter and greatsword (have them also provide some sort of condition in their auto attacks perhaps) however, calling this class badly designed is poor observation, both of the mechanics, and the community, who are calling for us to be toned down because they have difficulty handling us in this early stage.

The Clone Mechanic is far from our weakest aspect of our Profession, and shoulden’t be a priority in adjustments, especially given that much of what we have is still bugged. Once the bugs are fixed and some of our other mechanics (such as Mantras) have been addressed, we can take another look at clones and how they are balance with our other existing mechanics. Right now, I just don’t see a reason for the insult to the class.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

We will start with the most simple function they provide: Fodder for Shatters. Most clone abilities are easily produced, and then easily disposable to be used in the shatter skill. Between Traits, utility skills, and the clone production skills on weapon bars, a

I producing clones in good enough quantities is so easy, then why do I feel like I’m locked into Duelling 20 and Clone on evade trait? Because in reality most weapons can only produce 1 clone 1 phantasm in one recharge cycle. Shatters are far far less useful if you don’t have Clone on evade.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

Staff Clones use Winds of Chaos and further boons and conditions on the battlefield, which can build up at an amazing rate.

Amazing rate? Have you seen the attack speed on those?
The only clones that are powerful are GS clones with their bleeds. And that’s only with high precision and with Sharper Images trait. Which leads back to core mesmer problem: It sucks if it isn’t traited.

Additionally, several traits allow us to gain additional functions to our clones when they are killed, overwritten, or are used in shatters, regardless if they are mistaken for our true selves.

Traits, which are mutually exclusive. That is On clone death trait don’t work if you shatter them. On shatter traits don’t work if you don’t shatter them.
Then there’s traits that give benefit for each alive illusion. How does that synergize with our class mechanic?

We are considered one of the most survivable Professions in the game due to depth of the clone mechanic, and also the most deadly, depending entirely on how we build.

We are most survivable because we posses multiple invul, block and invis abilities, not because of clones.

Seriously, every single mesmer build needs Clone on evade. Every single mesmer build needs shaper images. Every single mesmer build needs high crit chance. That’s horrible design. And then there’s the fact that we don’t actually have a good condition build, that confusion sucks (and engineer can use it better), we don’t have condition mainhand weapon (and in general have way less weapon options than warrior/ranger/guardian), torch sucks, phantasms contribute so much damage you might as well call the class “summoner” and except for Phantasmal Warden, all weapon phantasms are plain old, boringkitten damage dealers. Summoned DoTs.
The multitude of useless traits is another whole can of worms. Everyone is using pretty much the same traits.

Mesmer is by no means a perfect class, there are definitely a lot of things that could use work. But to say clones fail in their task of deceiving other players is ridiculous.

Maybe I’m just a terrible player, but when I walk into a room and see four enemy mesmers…it’s pretty freaking confusing. Yes, I can tell who the real mesmer is in a few seconds, but those are a few seconds where I was completely useless, and I still have the challenge of targeting the mesmer and not his clones with tab or a mouse click which can be daunting in and of itself. And in those few seconds, the mesmer may have very well shattered his existing clones, and remade a few to generate even more confusion.

So I’m not really sure what the clone complainers want. Do you want clones to be literally indistinguishable for the mesmer? That would be ridiculously OP, and it would turn a skill-based mechanic (clone recognition) into a completely random mechanic (hope you hit the mesmer).

Just because a skilled player can counter something does not mean it’s “bad design.” On the contrary, I would call that GOOD design.

I mean, just look at the warrior’s frenzy + one hundred blades. It does TONS of damage, and can nearly down someone in one burst. BUT it’s pretty easy to counter. All a mesmer would have to do is either the F4 shatter (which can even be done stunned), blurred frenzy, or blink away, and one hundred blades does nothing. And really, if you see a warrior charge at you with a greatsword, you should know what’s coming.

Does this make that warrior combo useless or bad design? NO! It’s STILL super powerful, it’s just possible to counter. Same kind of thing with clones.

Seriously, every single mesmer build needs Clone on evade. Every single mesmer build needs shaper images. Every single mesmer build needs high crit chance. That’s horrible design.

Uh, no.

Rofl. That’s far, far from true.

Rhyno.7084:

I’m a little confused by these threads when they get posted over and over and over. Are you saying that there SHOULDN’T be a way to distinguish clones from the mesmer if they’re just attacking? How could that ever be balanced?

Either there blatantly shouldn’t like in Decoy or Illusionary leap, which I thought what the class was going for initially, or it should be BLATANTLY obvious which Mesmer is the real mesmer. There is literally no point in making the clones from moves that are not Decoy and Illusionary Leap to imitate the looks of the mesmer.

Creslin.1758:

Mesmer is by no means a perfect class, there are definitely a lot of things that could use work. But to say clones fail in their task of deceiving other players is ridiculous.

Maybe I’m just a terrible player, but when I walk into a room and see four enemy mesmers…it’s pretty freaking confusing. Yes, I can tell who the real mesmer is in a few seconds, but those are a few seconds where I was completely useless, and I still have the challenge of targeting the mesmer and not his clones with tab or a mouse click which can be daunting in and of itself. And in those few seconds, the mesmer may have very well shattered his existing clones, and remade a few to generate even more confusion.

So I’m not really sure what the clone complainers want. Do you want clones to be literally indistinguishable for the mesmer? That would be ridiculously OP, and it would turn a skill-based mechanic (clone recognition) into a completely random mechanic (hope you hit the mesmer).

Just because a skilled player can counter something does not mean it’s “bad design.” On the contrary, I would call that GOOD design.

I mean, just look at the warrior’s frenzy + one hundred blades. It does TONS of damage, and can nearly down someone in one burst. BUT it’s pretty easy to counter. All a mesmer would have to do is either the F4 shatter (which can even be done stunned), blurred frenzy, or blink away, and one hundred blades does nothing. And really, if you see a warrior charge at you with a greatsword, you should know what’s coming.

Does this make that warrior combo useless or bad design? NO! It’s STILL super powerful, it’s just possible to counter. Same kind of thing with clones.

Again it only confuses noobs, b/c in higher tier matches you, or one of your allies will always keep track of which mesmer is the real mesmer because they are basically always on your GUI. If the mesmer you’re tracking suddenly becomes 3 mesmers in a particular pattern, guess what happened? Mirror Image.

So?

It still takes a half second to a second to ID the correct Mesmer.

Free 1s Invulnerability. GG no re.

EasymodeX.4062:

So?

It still takes a half second to a second to ID the correct Mesmer.

Free 1s Invulnerability. GG no re.

Good god, are all of you so thick? I’m stating something about the overall design of the mesmer. I have no say AT ALL on whether or not they are balanced or not, and never even alluded to saying ANYTHING on the subject.

Clones are still useful in higher level play for that half a second invulnerability, target loss, and fear of a shatter, I won’t contest that.

Mesmer, the Epitome of misunderstood classes.

Or

Mesmer, the class where everyone is an expert, even if they don’t play the class.

Also, stealth breaks marks. We have quite a few stealth options.

the uprising.6317:

Good god, are all of you so thick? I’m stating something about the overall design of the mesmer.
[…]
Clones are still useful in higher level play for that half a second invulnerability, target loss, and fear of a shatter, I won’t contest that.

The main problem is with clones, in that the huge majority of the time, there is no deception involved.
EDIT: I’m not saying Mesmer is “weak”. I’m saying they should have skills that deceive EVERYONE and skills that blatantly deceive NO ONE. Them having tons of skills that only deceive noobs is just bad design.

1. You already accept that Clones deceive players in higher level play. Therefore your original summary statement is incorrect: Mesmers do have skills that deceive everyone (Clones). The difference is that they deceive good players for short durations, and poor players for longer durations.

2. Other skills can “deceive”, including the simple use of stealth or blink to move out of the enemy’s LOS.

3. The purpose of these “deception skills” are multiple. Clones provide multiple effects, and the deception is only a single, minor one. Checks above quotes. Ah, you also agree with this.

So, in conclusion, clones provide multiple effects and the deception component scales based on the competency of your opponent.

Working as intended.

/agree with all EasymodeX posts in this thread.

I think the mesmer is very well designed. I even like the trait lines (which some other players have called poorly organized). I feel like I have a lot of options. My favorite 0/0/25/25/20 build can be reconfigured so many ways just by choosing different traits.

I think clones are amazing as well as the Phantasms. Combine that with 50 ways to get chaos armor and it’s almost face-roll easy in PvE (once you get the hang of it).

So, first of all, have you any coding experience? Have you any game creating experience? Have you ever been on a design team? Have you ever dealt with balance issues in a game?

What right have you to criticize Anet’s design.

I have confounded people in 1v1 duels EXTENSIVELY with clones. My clones are beefed up with all the extra HP, and that’s because I enjoy confusing people with them. In a recent duel with my warrior boyfriend, he LoS’d behind a rock to avoid a shatter. I immediately summoned up a few more clones (I was using staff at the time) and when he came back out from behind the rock, I stood stock still and just auto attacked a few times. He went for one of the clones first. I auto attacked a few more times while he wasted several precious seconds with my clone. (My clones have about 9k HP traited, so it can easily seem like they are too tanky to be a clone).

The point that I’m trying to state is not that everyone sucks and doesn’t know how to play the game, but more that you can’t expect the AI to do something beyond their capacity, when you can easily behave like a clone. If you want clones to be deceptive, they can be, but you have to act like the clone. The clone can’t act like you.

If you say the clones don’t do anything, why are people whining and kittening about how they’re confusing on the PvP subforum?

Beothel.8420:

“The epitome of bad design” is too strong, but Mesmers do have multiple design flaws. Namely:

- Shattering vs Keeping Illusions.
This decision is designed to have the player choose between which is better in a particular situation (a good mechanic), but is completely undermined by having to choose between the two when traiting. Once you’ve traited towards one or the other, you’re so heavily weighted towards your choice that there is no longer a decision to make.

I strongly disagree. I se your point, but it only works on paper. I for instance have a build which relies on Phantasms for damage. Does that means I never shatter? I’m not spamming shatter on CD like a Shatter-centric build does, but I’m making use of it. All three phantasms up? Let em do some damage…hey the cooldowns are gone…Shatter em for an extra burst of damage, make more.

Mob/player about to eat me, outta defensive abilities…quick! Shatter for a distortion/daze.

Traiting affects how OFTEN you Shatter, but you should still be using it when the situation arises to need it.

- Inactive Illusion abilities
Your character performs no action for a full GCD when you summon a Phantasm or use several Illusion abilities (first activation of Illusionairy Leap). This is genuinely a poor design decision. Your character should perform that action as well as the Illusion (upon activating the skill – further illusion attacks would then be like an echo of the action). This would also shift power back to the player and away from the Phantasms themselves.

Holding aside the fact there is no GCD as such….not sure I follow. You’re saying that the casting time of a Phantasm essentially means you aren’t doing anything while it’s going. OK. But I lost you after that. I think you’re saying you want illusion/player behaviour to match better so as to add to the deceptive factor of illusions? Is that right?

- Phantasms feel like pets
We’re not a pet class, but Phantasms play as if they are pets or turrets. It’s no fun to have so much of our damage come from Phantasms when we’re not really supposed to be a “summoner”.

I think this varies heavily on build and/or personal philosophy. I am a sword+pistol/GS Mesmer. I see myself as a provider of heavy direct damage at all ranges, with some minor aoe ability. Much of this damage comes from me (Blurred Frenzy, Mind Stab, Mirror Blade, GS #3 whose name I somehow forgot…). In addition, I have a number of crowd control utilities (Illusory Wave, Magic Bullet, Signet of Dom, Moa), and on top of that I gain a bunch of semi-autonomous constructs (not pets, because there’s no real control of them) that can be used for a number of different functions dependant on situation. My Phantasms are a supplment to my skills, not a replacement.

The OP exaggerates heavily, and focuses on the wrong issue. Clones not genuinely imitating the player is a visual issue, and doesn’t make for poor design in and of itself. But the Mesmer does have several design issues that require more than just tweaking numbers.

I won’t necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but I think your arguments are a bit too focused on specific builds and not indicative of Mesmer performance overall.

the uprising

Again it only confuses noobs, b/c in higher tier matches you, or one of your allies will always keep track of which mesmer is the real mesmer because they are basically always on your GUI. If the mesmer you’re tracking suddenly becomes 3 mesmers in a particular pattern, guess what happened? Mirror Image.

So you’re saying that these higher tier players are so good that they can IMMEDIATELY recognize and target the mesmer when he has or puts clones up with ZERO seconds of delay? I’m sorry, I just have trouble believing this.

I don’t care how good you are. You HAVE to spend at least a few thought processes recognizing who the mesmer is, making clones useful. And even if you know who the mesmer is, sometimes the clone will physically get in the way of your mouse pointer so you have trouble clicking on the real mesmer. Yeah, you can use tab, but then you have to cycle through more targets to get to the one you want because of the clones.

I mean, I’m sure at higher tiers players are more likely to counter a hundred blades too, but like I said, it doesn’t make it useless. You could say the same for any ability…obviously better players will be more likely to counter it.

So you’re saying that these higher tier players are so good that they can IMMEDIATELY recognize and target the mesmer when he has or puts clones up with ZERO seconds of delay? I’m sorry, I just have trouble believing this.

When you’re Neo, you don’t even see the clones. You just see the player.

EasymodeX.4062:

So you’re saying that these higher tier players are so good that they can IMMEDIATELY recognize and target the mesmer when he has or puts clones up with ZERO seconds of delay? I’m sorry, I just have trouble believing this.

When you’re Neo, you don’t even see the clones. You just see the player.

LOL, there is no clone.

I like Mesmers, its a fun class but i do think it has some very important issues that i think need addressing

1. Phantoms, do way too much of our damage (unless we are Shatter bashers)

Fix: Reduce damage to 0, turn them into Living hexes which i think they were meant to be – have them so specific ones either : Cure conditions, give boons or give conditions and move the damage back to the Mesmer and clones would be nice if Clones lived a bit longer and did a bit more ten mere double digit damage

2. Clones are broken. They are meant to deceive and annoy yet – nearly anyone that knows anything about Mesmers know that the clones dont move – so attack the moving one and abilities like ileap and Mirror Images dont confuse anyone – ileap the real Mesmer is behind the clone and mostly (i think) the real mesmer is in the centre when they use Mirror Images

Fix : First Make Mirror Images create 3 clones not 2 and then give it a second part that swaps places of the Mesmer and one of the clones randomly every say 10seconds – maybe make it so they all get that “shatter” effect so the target cant tell who is who

Also make it so clones MOVE – the only time they move is when they lose LoS or range of the target

Would be nice to fix the no offhand bug as well

Seems like this thread has a bad case of people throwing around “bad design” to try to put weight behind arguments when most of the stuff they’re complaining about is preferential.

Once you’ve traited towards one or the other, you’re so heavily weighted towards your choice that there is no longer a decision to make.

Ignoring for a moment that that’s not entirely true, why is it a bad thing to be able to specialize?

Phantasms feel like pets
We’re not a pet class, but Phantasms play as if they are pets or turrets. It’s no fun to have so much of our damage come from Phantasms when we’re not really supposed to be a “summoner”.

Not sure why you don’t think Mesmers are “summoners” when the core mechanic of the class is summoning minions.

The only real compelling argument here is that trying to use raw clones as a weapon isn’t a very good strategy because their damage is so low and you can have so few active at once (for the damage they deal) and of course, they melt on target death.

So, first of all, have you any coding experience? Have you any game creating experience? Have you ever been on a design team? Have you ever dealt with balance issues in a game?
What right have you to criticize Anet’s design.

Have you any acting experience? Have you any directing experience? Have you ever been on a movie set? Have you ever dealt with acting issues in a movie?

What right have you to criticize any movie or TV show.

In other words, none of the things you mentioned are necessary in order to criticize game design.

Ignoring for a moment that that’s not entirely true, why is it a bad thing to be able to specialize?

Because the primary class mechanic (shattering) is intended to be universally useful. It’s the secondary mechanics which we should be specializing in.

Strill: Because the primary class mechanic (shattering) is intended to be universally useful. It’s the secondary mechanics which we should be specializing in.

EXACTLY my view point, its a BIG part of the class so it SHOULD NOT be limited to those that trait for it and play in a specific way it should be open to EVERYONE

I have a lot of fun with my Mesmer, but I am kind of turned off from PvP.
For me, the biggest issue is being able to leave a target over the real mesmer, so no matter what you do to try and confuse the enemy, they will always know who the real mesmer is because of the big red target symbol over their head. Anyone can do this by holding down Ctrl and clicking a target.

But even this is unnecessary. With the current targeting system, it doesn’t matter what you do, you wont be able to break an enemy’s target unless you use Decoy or Illusionary Leap. All of their ranged attacks and spells will still be targeting you even if you slap some clones down, Blink somewhere, teleport away, dodge and leave a clone behind, ect. So long as the enemy had you target before any of these abilities were cast, they will STILL have you targeted.

It is a little frustrating that the MAIN MECHANIC of my profession is only effective when I bring at least one of only TWO spells in my entire itinerary. Otherwise, the entire design of the Mesmer class is pointless without these two skills, especially considering they can only be used in a fight every 40 seconds.

I am not saying every ability you use should break targeting in PvP, but there need to be a few more. Being completely dependent and expected to bring one skill because it is ESSENTIAL to the class kind of cripples your build if you want to bring something else in its place.

A lot of you are making me kind of mad w/ ur ignorance. I think the problem is many of yall don’t know what deceiving means. According to thefreedictionary.com, deceiving- To cause to believe what is not true; mislead.

Making a player take .3 extra seconds to figure out where his target due to human reaction time is not deception, its a hindrance. A small one at that. Its just giving the enemy player more to micro. Clones are still useful in high level play, but not generally for deceit. Which is fine, its just a wonder why the devs made clones be deceitful for low level play.

Hehe, “ignorance”… lol, I’m sry but you don’t take feedback that is contrary to your points well… but it’s certainly not ignorance.

The definition of deceive does not imply duration — you inserted that yourself.

Why don’t you just try clones in PvP and WvW and see how often your foes are deceived — sometimes it will happen, sometimes it will not. The bottom line is that it will happen.

You can attribute that to player ability, or not — doesn’t matter.

juno.1840:

Hehe, “ignorance”… lol, I’m sry but you don’t take feedback that is contrary to your points well… but it’s certainly not ignorance.

The definition of deceive does not imply duration — you inserted that yourself.

Why don’t you just try clones in PvP and WvW and see how often your foes are deceived — sometimes it will happen, sometimes it will not. The bottom line is that it will happen.

You can attribute that to player ability, or not — doesn’t matter.

They will be decived IF they are new to the class, everyone else knows how to tell the real Mesmer -

you move = found
use any attack other then ability 1 on your weapon = found

ManCaptain.3154:

I producing clones in good enough quantities is so easy, then why do I feel like I’m locked into Duelling 20 and Clone on evade trait? Because in reality most weapons can only produce 1 clone 1 phantasm in one recharge cycle. Shatters are far far less useful if you don’t have Clone on evade.

Far less used, not far less useful. Clones still provide their alternative traits and effects, and you have 3 clones in utility on demand.

You’re also completely neglecting Scepters ridiculous clone production rate, which is an ideal for a PvE Shatter or Overwrite build (Works in PvP to a lesser degree, especially for entrenched opponents.)

Amazing rate? Have you seen the attack speed on those?
The only clones that are powerful are GS clones with their bleeds. And that’s only with high precision and with Sharper Images trait. Which leads back to core mesmer problem: It sucks if it isn’t traited.

Attack speed is irrelevant on Staff Clones, they hit twice for boons and debuffs. Crits apply bleed on top of the boons and debuffs. And unless you’re placing them right in the middle of enemy AoE, they’ll last long enough for the growing use of those to stack. Yes, Greatsword (And iDuelist) are better at stacking bleeds specificly but Bleed is not the end all skill here.

And again, you’re ignoring all the other utilities clone provides.

Illusionary Leap Cripples, then enables swap, which AoE binds.

Traits, which are mutually exclusive. That is On clone death trait don’t work if you shatter them. On shatter traits don’t work if you don’t shatter them.
Then there’s traits that give benefit for each alive illusion. How does that synergize with our class mechanic?

It provides a ‘kitten if you do, kitten if you don’t’ mechanic to clones. If you destory them close in, you get riddeled with conditions. IF you don’t we use them with shatters.

Also note, that ‘on clone death’ also counts for overwriting your clones.

We are most survivable because we posses multiple invul, block and invis abilities, not because of clones.

Seriously, every single mesmer build needs Clone on evade. Every single mesmer build needs shaper images. Every single mesmer build needs high crit chance. That’s horrible design.

You’re bad, and you should feel bad.

You do not need bleeds, you do not need high crit chance, you do not even need clone on evade. Does these builds help? Yes, but there are plenty very powerful Mesmer Builds that do not even involve the Dueling line at all. Do your bookwork before you start talking about a job you are continually displaying a lack of knowledge about.

And then there’s the fact that we don’t actually have a good condition build,

Wrong

that confusion sucks (and engineer can use it better)

That’s at least true, Confusion should do better damage for the stacks given on it.

we don’t have condition mainhand weapon

Wrong, twice. Scepter for confusion stacking (Needs buffing), Staff 2h for all others. Staff itself is praticly build for conditions.

torch sucks

Wrong again. Is it currently outshines by pistol? Yes. But that has to do with the fact that Pistol provides a stun on top of one of the 2 most damaging phantasems we have.

phantasms contribute so much damage you might as well call the class “summoner”

Then why talk about a class you hate? What’s your investment here. We summon illusions, some meant for deception/utility, others meant for damage and utility.

and except for Phantasmal Warden, all weapon phantasms are plain old, boringkitten damage dealers. Summoned DoTs.

The more I read this post, the more I realize I shouldn’t bother replying to it. It’s obvious that you don’t have half a clue what you’re talking about.
You acknowledge iWarden – left out

iBerserker – Cripple
iDisenchanter – buff/debuff removal (If you’re not using this in AC, you’re crippling your party.
iDefender – Damage Reduction
iMage – Boons/Debuffs

Thats 4 Phantasms you ignored simply because they were against your argument.

The multitude of useless traits is another whole can of worms. Everyone is using pretty much the same traits.

If they’re in sPvP, some traits are powerful to use, but in WvW and PvE it’s an entirely different story, unless you’re bland, go for self performance and ignore your usefulness to a party.

You need to do some real research on how this class’s actions and traits synergize with itself before you complain. Because you don’t know squat about builds it seems, and I’ve run out of energy trying to explain every single false statement you’ve made to justify your basless hatred for the class.

If it’s not what you want, move on. Don’t waste people’s time with misinformation and ignorance.

juno.1840:

Hehe, “ignorance”… lol, I’m sry but you don’t take feedback that is contrary to your points well… but it’s certainly not ignorance.

The definition of deceive does not imply duration — you inserted that yourself.

Why don’t you just try clones in PvP and WvW and see how often your foes are deceived — sometimes it will happen, sometimes it will not. The bottom line is that it will happen.

You can attribute that to player ability, or not — doesn’t matter.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will be confused by them. Especially in WvW where it is legitly impossible to keep track of every mesmer and his clones. But in sPvP, ppl will be confused by the mesmer’s clones due to lack of skill and/or understanding of the mesmer’s moves. What purpose do the clones looking identical to the caster serve if it increases the mesmer’s incomprehensibility to enemies while not adding any real depth? Any real counter play?

Some games make things arcane on purpose b/c that’s the allure to them. But GW2, like what most games should be like, is going for making things very intuitive and easy to understand. This flies completely against that ideal. I was trying to think of an example of complexity without depth, but the one already in game is too perfect:

It would be like if the mesmer had a move that teleported himself a short distance backwards and left a clone of himself in place. There is no other action in the game that resembles this move, so a player with knowledge of the mesmer will instantly recognize that the mesmer in front is a clone. So that brings up the question, why bother making a clone that resembles the mesmer so closely? Why not color it some other color? What purpose could this possibly serve other than creating noob traps?

Terrant.2903:

I strongly disagree. I se your point, but it only works on paper. I for instance have a build which relies on Phantasms for damage. Does that means I never shatter? I’m not spamming shatter on CD like a Shatter-centric build does, but I’m making use of it. All three phantasms up? Let em do some damage…hey the cooldowns are gone…Shatter em for an extra burst of damage, make more.

Mob/player about to eat me, outta defensive abilities…quick! Shatter for a distortion/daze.

Traiting affects how OFTEN you Shatter, but you should still be using it when the situation arises to need it.

OK, I accept this. I do still feel that traits cause you to lean too heavily one way or the other, but that is just my personal opinion.

Holding aside the fact there is no GCD as such….not sure I follow. You’re saying that the casting time of a Phantasm essentially means you aren’t doing anything while it’s going. OK. But I lost you after that. I think you’re saying you want illusion/player behaviour to match better so as to add to the deceptive factor of illusions? Is that right?

When you activate Phantasmal Duelist, for example, all that you do is summon a Phantasm. Your character performs no action – the only thing that actually does something is the phantasm. This is intentional, but it’s poor design to have your character do nothing every time you summon a phantasm (and it occurs this way with some illusion abilities too).

Mechanically and thematically, I would argue it would work much better for your character to also perform that action – i.e. If you use Pistol #4, then you unload your pistol on your target, summoning a Phantasm that simultaneously performs the same action. Your Phantasm still persists, continuing to perform that action intermittently as usual, but it makes the initial summon more active. What do you think about that idea?

I think this varies heavily on build and/or personal philosophy. I am a sword+pistol/GS Mesmer. I see myself as a provider of heavy direct damage at all ranges, with some minor aoe ability. Much of this damage comes from me (Blurred Frenzy, Mind Stab, Mirror Blade, GS #3 whose name I somehow forgot…). In addition, I have a number of crowd control utilities (Illusory Wave, Magic Bullet, Signet of Dom, Moa), and on top of that I gain a bunch of semi-autonomous constructs (not pets, because there’s no real control of them) that can be used for a number of different functions dependant on situation. My Phantasms are a supplment to my skills, not a replacement.

See, your description of Phantasms is essentially as a semi-mobile version of turrets. Yes, I agree that the other abilities and functions that you list are great, and they’re exactly what I love about the Mesmer. But I often feel far more like a pet class than a caster class – that I get far more effectiveness out of my Phantasms than a lot of my other abilities.

The more I describe it, the more evident it becomes that my argument is entirely just my own opinion, but hear me out. If you were to make a profession that summoned spirits that haunted the target, they would be largely uncontrollable, make up a heavy portion of your damage and you would have ways of expending said spirits for additional effects. That, to me, is exactly how a Mesmer feels (with additional utility abilities to round it out). I feel like I’m summoning spirits, not creating illusions. There is a level of interactivity that is missing.

I won’t necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but I think your arguments are a bit too focused on specific builds and not indicative of Mesmer performance overall.

You’ve brought up really good points, and your criticism is very constructive. It’s true that my argument is particularly applicable for Phantasm-centric builds, but I don’t feel it’s the only build that this is true for. I genuinely feel there is a design issue underlying a couple of features that needs more than just a numbers fix.
I do try to argue logically but in the end it is all my opinion, so thanks for the feedback

squiggit.2357:

Seems like this thread has a bad case of people throwing around “bad design” to try to put weight behind arguments when most of the stuff they’re complaining about is preferential.

Ignoring for a moment that that’s not entirely true, why is it a bad thing to be able to specialize?

It’s only bad if it takes away the decision altogether, as the whole point of having a tradeoff is to make a player choose between different options in different situations. If you completely take away choice, it becomes a wasted mechanic. If that occurs, it is definitely bad design, regardless of preference.

That said, another poster showed me that even in builds that specialise, it doesn’t take away the need to choose. So in this case, I was wrong to call it bad design, as the above situation does not occur here

Not sure why you don’t think Mesmers are “summoners” when the core mechanic of the class is summoning minions.

But that’s just it, thematically we create illusions, not summon minions. There’s a distinct mechanical difference between the two. Is that preferential? I guess it is, and you’re right that I should clarify more that what I’m saying is my own opinion. But I firmly believe that Mesmers are not summoners and shouldn’t play like summoners.

It would be like if the mesmer had a move that teleported himself a short distance backwards and left a clone of himself in place. There is no other action in the game that resembles this move, so a player with knowledge of the mesmer will instantly recognize that the mesmer in front is a clone. So that brings up the question, why bother making a clone that resembles the mesmer so closely? Why not color it some other color? What purpose could this possibly serve other than creating noob traps?

Let’s get into this point action.

First, you have the deception that I, as a mesmer, was in the first position in the first place. You came after me, I blinked back. You thought I’d be reliably there when I wasn’t. I’ve done this several times to heartseeker thieves and it’s a continual pratice.

Second, I now have a clone the field. You refer to it as a minion, but anyone else coming into the fight might not immediately think it’s a clone, especially in the fray of the fight. You’ve now laid a trap for the unaware and possibly bought yourself a split second against the enemy.

Third, that clone now serves it’s function as a Staff Clone, meaning it’s applying winds of Chaos on the field, The more it’s ignored, the more it’s going to sit and stack debuffs on you. The deeper deception here was that you ignored it in the first place. It now becomes factor on the field, used at my disgression.

Even those who are not fooled by appearances can be fooled by the deeper level of a Mesmer’s function. That Hartseeker thief or 100b Warrior could walk headlong into being crippled or dazed, or even stunned if traited correctly.

I understand the wanted desire to deceive an opponent, but as someone else said, it does happen, at an amazing rate too.

For fighting enemies that are intelligent, however. There are other deceptions you can employ that are even more uncanny than simply producing an illusion of yourself, but by making that illusion a factor in the fight the enemy cannot afford to ignore.

Ryuujin.8236:

IMHO, they need to decide whether illusions exist purely kittenter fodder, or if they exist as decoys, and then focus on it.

If clones are shatter fodder then allow them to exist independently of a victim, they instead act as a swarm of weaponised mirror images that break easily.

If clones are decoys then make them serve better as such; perhaps have them serve as relays for the mesmer’s spellcasting so that his “spells” appear to come from the clones improving the deception

I like this guy.