Guild Wars 2

It’s pretty simple, it’s the Phantasm skills.

Shield is the first weapon that provides a skill/utility as its main effect, and the phantasm summon is a biproduct of that. In all other cases the weapon is used to summon a phantasm, and if you’re lucky the phantasm will have some effect (if it hits/if it lands/if it even manages to spawn XD ).

Phantasms suck. Fire, shatter, and forget. Utility skills are groovy. All the cool kids bring utilities to the yard.

Agreed, all phantasm skills could use an update to make them more than shatter fodder after 1 attack (PvP). Or immediately cleaved, which is super cool for a high-ish CD skill

I agree. All the other phantasm skills should be brought in line with shield 4.

Let us be honest: phantasms are a failed mechanics. They are holding the whole class back. Think about it, they are supposed to be our “sustained damage”… ahaha.

I can think of 2 fixes:

• make all phantasms like the shield one: a skill and then a “byproduct” being a phantasm. The phantasm has to be nerfed accordingly
• change the phantasm to be balanced as a 1-time thing: it spawns, does its thing (and is unkillable) and then becomes a simple clone. This means our sustained damage will stop being computed assuming 3 phantasms up and thus instead gain some damage in weapons skills.

I love all these ideas. My rough idea would be maybe change illusion-summoning skills to either all be clones or all be phantasms. You chose by picking a GM trait. If clones, then your shatter skills behave as normal. If phantasm, then your shatters are replaced by “orders” which order your phantasms to execute a specific attack when triggered. The “orders” don’t kill the phantasms, they just go on cooldown and the phants go back to autoing.

Silverkey.2078:

Let us be honest: phantasms are a failed mechanics. They are holding the whole class back. Think about it, they are supposed to be our “sustained damage”… ahaha.

I can think of 2 fixes:

• make all phantasms like the shield one: a skill and then a “byproduct” being a phantasm. The phantasm has to be nerfed accordingly
• change the phantasm to be balanced as a 1-time thing: it spawns, does its thing (and is unkillable) and then becomes a simple clone. This means our sustained damage will stop being computed assuming 3 phantasms up and thus instead gain some damage in weapons skills.

How would you rework greatsword 4?
Mirror blade actually works like this (the clone being a byproduct) and so does Illusionary counter (I think)

This is actually a pretty good idea, I agree.

I agree with this idea, yet it doesnt necessarily mean that all the phantasms have to be nerfed acordingly. Shield have a strong effect and its phantasm also have condi/buffs considered strong. Thats why phantasm itself sucks (dmg/attack ratio).
Other off-hands lacks. Even the last (and not the phantasm) skill doenst match the multifaceted theme of ToT.
What im trying to say is that a straight buff to phantasms skills doing something while summoning the phantasms isnt nothing of this world to ask/think about.

Pepsi.8907:

Silverkey.2078:

Let us be honest: phantasms are a failed mechanics. They are holding the whole class back. Think about it, they are supposed to be our “sustained damage”… ahaha.

I can think of 2 fixes:

• make all phantasms like the shield one: a skill and then a “byproduct” being a phantasm. The phantasm has to be nerfed accordingly
• change the phantasm to be balanced as a 1-time thing: it spawns, does its thing (and is unkillable) and then becomes a simple clone. This means our sustained damage will stop being computed assuming 3 phantasms up and thus instead gain some damage in weapons skills.

How would you rework greatsword 4?
Mirror blade actually works like this (the clone being a byproduct) and so does Illusionary counter (I think)

Some time ago, someone made a suggestion in the forum for how each phantasm skill could be reworked. I don’t remember who, so I can’t find the link, but someone thought about it.

Silverkey.2078:

Let us be honest: phantasms are a failed mechanics. They are holding the whole class back. Think about it, they are supposed to be our “sustained damage”… ahaha.

I can think of 2 fixes:

• make all phantasms like the shield one: a skill and then a “byproduct” being a phantasm. The phantasm has to be nerfed accordingly
• change the phantasm to be balanced as a 1-time thing: it spawns, does its thing (and is unkillable) and then becomes a simple clone. This means our sustained damage will stop being computed assuming 3 phantasms up and thus instead gain some damage in weapons skills.

This and I’ll go even as far to say that gw2 mesmer is broken from the core foundation of it’s design.
Illusions, shatters and phantasm have completely failed this class in nearly every aspect of this game. The only thing that’s ever been worth on the mesmer has been their utilities.
I don’t know what made them veer off from gw1 mesmer…
They could have had this class be a master of interruption with like a system for tallying up intterupts and giving cd reduction on all skills once a threshold was reached. It would have been similar to faster casting from gw1.
I love my mesmer but it’s been broken from day 1 of this game….

For me, I find that the Phantasms are just using all the wrong skills.

I’ve always thought Phantasmal Warden should use Whirling Axe instead of Whirling Defense so it’s not so immediately ignorable when summoned. Phantasmal Swordsman should use Flashing Blade with a new blind source. And Phantasmal Mage should use Throw Torch.

I think Phantasmal Duellist should actually begin to become slightly more condi/hybrid based perhaps having the Duellist use Poison Dart Volley or Static Shot instead..

sure, with the huge nerf bat incoming, I guess we will take w/e Anet willing to do to make this class viable… But I doubt Anet will read this thread, sadly.

It would be cool if all phantasm skills were like Echo of Memory: an u~seful effect with a phantasm tied to it. Something like this:

• The Spectacle (Phantasmal mage) : Burn and reveal foes on target area. Summon an illusion that casts explosive proyectiles that burn foes on its radius.This skill also cures conditions on its area if traited.

• Mirrored duel (Phantasmal duelist) : Unload your gun shooting four piercing shots that deal damage and confusion up to 5 foes. Summon an illusion behind your target that unloads its guns on the enemy dealing damage.

• Curtain call (Phantasmal warden): Create a zone that damages and slows enemies . Summon an illusion that blocks proyectiles.
  This zone also reflects proyectiles if traited

• Phantasmal Lunge (Phantasmal swordsman): Lunge at your foe crippling him and dealing more damage the closer you are to him. Summon an illuison that attacks your foe and grants access to Gleaming retreat for 3 seconds.
  Gleaming retreat: Jump away from your foe while evading attacks.

• Brutal waltz (Phantasmal berseker): Throw a piercing phantasmal blade at your target, damaging and crippling them. A the end of its trail it creates an illusion that uses a whirling attack to damage and cripple foes.

• Shame (Phantasmal warlock): Attack your foe confusing him. Your foe is afflicted with one or more stacks of torment if it had one or more conditions. Create an illusion that deals extra damage for each condition on your target foe.

• Illusion of protection (Illusionary defender): Give 5 seconds of protection and 3 seconds of resistance to you and nearby allies. Create an illusion that grants Illusion of Defense to nearby allies when it attacks.

• Illusion of nothingness (Phantasmal Disenchanter): Remove up to two boons or conditions for each enemy and ally on target area (Max 3 targets). Create an illusion that removes boons from enemies and cures conditions from allies.

The skill effects would have similar effects with the phantasms they summon. Every single of these would benefit for all traits and effects that affect phantasms and would be into the phantasm skill type. What do you think?

Edit typos. Also a-n (space) u-s-e-f-u-l is censored because reasons.

Arkanthor.2307:

It would be cool if all phantasm skills were like Echo of Memory: kitteneful effect with a phantasm tied to it. Something like this:

• The Spectacle (Phantasmal mage) : Burn and reveal foes on target area. Summon an illusion that casts explosive proyectiles that burn foes on its radius.This skill also cleanses on its area conditions if traited.

• Mirrored duel (Phantasmal duelist) : Unload your gun shooting four piercing shots that deal damage and confusion up to 5 foes. Summon an illusion behind your target that unloads its guns on the enemy dealing damage.

• Curtain call (Phantasmal warden): Create a zone that damages and slows enemies . Summon an illusion that blocks proyectiles.
  This zone also reflects proyectiles if traited

• Phantasmal Lunge (Phantasmal swordsman): Lunge at your foe crippling him and dealing more damage the closer you are to him. Summon an illuion that attacks your foe and grants access to Gelaming retreat for 3 seconds.
  Gleaming retreat: Jump away from your foe while evading attacks.

• Brutal waltz (Phantasmal berseker): Throw a piercing phantasmal blade at your target, damaging and crippling them. A the end of its trail it creates an illusion that uses a whirling attack to damage and cripple foes.

• Shame (Phantasmal warlock): Attack your foe confusing him. Your foe is afflicted with one or more stacks of torment if it had one or more conditions. Create an illusion that deals extra damage for each condition on your target foe.

• Illusion of protection (Illusionary defender): Give 5 seconds of protection and 3 seconds of resistance to you and nearby allies. Create an illusion that grants Illusion of Defense to nearby allies when it attacks.

• Illusion of nothingness (Phantasmal Disenchanter): Remove up to two boons or conditions for each enemy and ally on target area (Max 3 targets). Create an illusion that removes boons from enemies and cures conditions from allies.

The skill effects would have similar effects with the phantasms they summon. Every single of these would benefit for all traits and effects that affect phantasms and would be into the phantasm skill type. What do you think?

Sounds good. Exactly the sort of thing we’re talking about.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Arkanthor.2307:

[…]

The skill effects would have similar effects with the phantasms they summon. Every single of these would benefit for all traits and effects that affect phantasms and would be into the phantasm skill type. What do you think?

Sounds good. Exactly the sort of thing we’re talking about.

Quite a few interesting ideas. However, I think that the additional benefit should come more naturally. Some of those ideas don’t read like they would enable fluent gameplay. We got to keep in mind that actually casting the Phantasm shouldn’t get more complicated for the added effect.

I also believe that we won’t see Phantasms go anytime soon. This means, they can’t give us too much functionality or damage ontop of the Phantasm or they would have to totally rework them. Which is needed in some cases. But not in all of them.

Other ideas I had (I’ll just use the old skill names):

Phantasmal Mage
Spin (like Fire Overload but, of course, puuuuuurrrrrple) and periodically burn nearby foes (adding up to 1 stack per 0.25s with a larger radius burst as final tick). Blast finisher at the end of the spin. Remove the Blast finisher from Prestige if needed. Phantasm is cast on target when spin ends. Phantasm breathes purple flames in a cone (s. Guardian torch, only 3 ticks) which confuse enemies and grants Fury. Cures 1 condition per tick if traited.

Reveal would be nice but I simply don’t see it on Mesmers or Thieves.

Phantasmal Warlock
Cast animation like Flame Burst – but purple (Staff#3 on Ele). Your target and up to 2 nearby foes become vulnerable (5 stacks for 5s). They also randomly become Crippled, Chilled or Slowed. Warlock is cast at the end of the animation. Shoots a (fast… so it can actually hit…) purple fireball which explodes on impact and affects up to 3 targets. Deals additional damage per condition.

Phantasmal Swordsman
I liked the idea. But I’d rather have it slightly different. Leap at your foe (Leap finisher), leaving behind a Phantasmal Swordsman which follows up your attack shortly after. If you hit your target with your leap, you are able to blink back to your original position for 3s.

Additionally, Illusionary Riposte becomes a channeled block (only 1s duration). If hit in this time frame, significantly damage and daze up to 5 nearby foes. If not hit, only daze nearby foes. No longer creates an Illusion.

Phantasmal Duelist
Cast an Duelist. If successful, gain access to Bullet Barrage for 3s which mimics your Duelists attack. Cooldown slightly reduced because of the follow-up skill. Duelist damage slightly reduced to compensate for Bullet Barrage.

Additionally, Magic Bullet, no longer bounces from enemy to enemy. Instead, it works like DH LB AA or Revenant Mace AA. The first hit stuns. If there are adjacent foes, the bullet splits and bounces, dazing up to 3 additional targets. To compensate, the CD reduction on interrupt is slightly reduced.

Phantasmal Warden
I don’t like the ‘field’ idea. It’s just a better version of Temporal Curtain if traited. I’d love some additional CC but feel that it might be a bit too much. So why not go down the support route considering it is in Inspiration? What about: Grant nearby allies a Light Aura and summon a Phantasmal Warden. Boring, yes. But we shouldn’t overdo it. Retaliation also somewhat fits the Phantasm.

Additionally, increase the height of Temporal Curtain and remove the ICD for the pull. Then Focus should be just fine.

Phantasmal Berserker
I really don’t know. Throwing another sword is so Mirror Blade. Another piercing sword from the ground is too much like Mind Stab . Giving the Mesmer the Berserker attack would grant too much mobility and damage. Therefore, it might be the easier to just grant nearby allies some Might (and Cripple foes if traited) when casting the Phantasm. Yeah, not too exciting as well. But it fits the theme and is some additional bonus after all. I just don’t see anything else happen.

Regarding iDefender and iDisenchanter, I believe that some Protection (Defender) and Resistance (Disenchanter) is plenty enough. If the utilities get too much added to them, there might not be any good reason for other utilities anymore.

Xaylin.1860:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Arkanthor.2307:

[…]

The skill effects would have similar effects with the phantasms they summon. Every single of these would benefit for all traits and effects that affect phantasms and would be into the phantasm skill type. What do you think?

Sounds good. Exactly the sort of thing we’re talking about.

Quite a few interesting ideas. However, I think that the additional benefit should come more naturally. Some of those ideas don’t read like they would enable fluent gameplay. We got to keep in mind that actually casting the Phantasm shouldn’t get more complicated for the added effect.

I also believe that we won’t see Phantasms go anytime soon. This means, they can’t give us too much functionality or damage ontop of the Phantasm or they would have to totally rework them. Which is needed in some cases. But not in all of them.

Other ideas I had (I’ll just use the old skill names):

Phantasmal Mage
Spin (like Fire Overload but, of course, puuuuuurrrrrple) and periodically burn nearby foes (adding up to 1 stack per 0.25s with a larger radius burst as final tick). Blast finisher at the end of the spin. Remove the Blast finisher from Prestige if needed. Phantasm is cast on target when spin ends. Phantasm breathes purple flames in a cone (s. Guardian torch, only 3 ticks) which confuse enemies and grants Fury. Cures 1 condition per tick if traited.

Reveal would be nice but I simply don’t see it on Mesmers or Thieves.

Phantasmal Warlock
Cast animation like Flame Burst – but purple (Staff#3 on Ele). Your target and up to 2 nearby foes become vulnerable (5 stacks for 5s). They also randomly become Crippled, Chilled or Slowed. Warlock is cast at the end of the animation. Shoots a (fast… so it can actually hit…) purple fireball which explodes on impact and affects up to 3 targets. Deals additional damage per condition.

Phantasmal Swordsman
I liked the idea. But I’d rather have it slightly different. Leap at your foe (Leap finisher), leaving behind a Phantasmal Swordsman which follows up your attack shortly after. If you hit your target with your leap, you are able to blink back to your original position for 3s.

Additionally, Illusionary Riposte becomes a channeled block (only 1s duration). If hit in this time frame, significantly damage and daze up to 5 nearby foes. If not hit, only daze nearby foes. No longer creates an Illusion.

Phantasmal Duelist
Cast an Duelist. If successful, gain access to Bullet Barrage for 3s which mimics your Duelists attack. Cooldown slightly reduced because of the follow-up skill. Duelist damage slightly reduced to compensate for Bullet Barrage.

Additionally, Magic Bullet, no longer bounces from enemy to enemy. Instead, it works like DH LB AA or Revenant Mace AA. The first hit stuns. If there are adjacent foes, the bullet splits and bounces, dazing up to 3 additional targets. To compensate, the CD reduction on interrupt is slightly reduced.

Phantasmal Warden
I don’t like the ‘field’ idea. It’s just a better version of Temporal Curtain if traited. I’d love some additional CC but feel that it might be a bit too much. So why not go down the support route considering it is in Inspiration? What about: Grant nearby allies a Light Aura and summon a Phantasmal Warden. Boring, yes. But we shouldn’t overdo it. Retaliation also somewhat fits the Phantasm.

Additionally, increase the height of Temporal Curtain and remove the ICD for the pull. Then Focus should be just fine.

Phantasmal Berserker
I really don’t know. Throwing another sword is so Mirror Blade. Another piercing sword from the ground is too much like Mind Stab . Giving the Mesmer the Berserker attack would grant too much mobility and damage. Therefore, it might be the easier to just grant nearby allies some Might (and Cripple foes if traited) when casting the Phantasm. Yeah, not too exciting as well. But it fits the theme and is some additional bonus after all. I just don’t see anything else happen.

Regarding iDefender and iDisenchanter, I believe that some Protection (Defender) and Resistance (Disenchanter) is plenty enough. If the utilities get too much added to them, there might not be any good reason for other utilities anymore.

Even better. I like the iSwordsman.

This is an excellent idea. The concept of Echo of Memory is what is desperately needed for phantasmal builds to survive. Giving mesmers a true Phantasmal Identity in Pvp/Pve would be a really nice class distinction . I hope Anet and Devs read this post!

Invictus.3428:

This is an excellent idea. The concept of Echo of Memory is what is desperately needed for phantasmal builds to survive. Giving mesmers a true Phantasmal Identity in Pvp/Pve would be a really nice class distinction . I hope Anet and Devs read this post!

If I could take a moment to quote myself

Utility skills are groovy. All the cool kids bring utilities to the yard.

I think there should be still phantasms. But i like the idea of having an additional effect on cast/spawn and having weaker phantasms then.

I mean just check out the phatasmal Mage, phantasmal warden or the utility phantasms, they are in a bad state at the moment. Adding an additional effect on cast could change that. And also would be way more useful if they die really quick.

But for sure phantasms from greatsword/sword offhand/ pistol have to be weaker then.

Also phantasm skills would be more usefull in large wvw fights.

NeroBoron.7285:

I think there should be still phantasms. But i like the idea of having an additional effect on cast/spawn and having weaker phantasms then.

I mean just check out the phatasmal Mage, phantasmal warden or the utility phantasms, they are in a bad state at the moment. Adding an additional effect on cast could change that. And also would be way more useful if they die really quick.

But for sure phantasms from greatsword/sword offhand/ pistol have to be weaker then.

Also phantasm skills would be more usefull in large wvw fights.

There’s no reason why a phantasm can’t stay as a primarily offensive thing. So while you might draw better utility from a focus that has an effect with a phantasm after summon, the iZerker on GS could still be all about that aoe spin damage with little or no initial cast pre-effect.

If OH shield has taught us one thing it’s that phantasm summon skills do not have to be uniform (it broke the mold). Therefor if its more practical to turn focus, torch, pistol, or staff phant summons into a pre-effect with secondary phant summon, there’s no reason why you couldnt just have a straight up phant summon, or mere focus on damage phant skill.

The problem with phantasms counting towards sustained damage (as far as PvE) is that things die far too quickly unless it’s a boss or you are soloing something harder than normal in Heart of Thorns. However if it’s a boss your phantasms might be destroyed in one hit as well.

Chronophantasma solved some of the issues with using Phantasms since you won’t accidentally shatter them as much.

Also the recharges are rather broken if you use Illusionist’s Celerity along with the weapon recharge trait Imagined Burden : Phantasmal Berserker goes from 20 seconds to 12; with Fencer’s Finesse active, Phantasmal Swordsman goes from 20 to 12 as well. However, the Illusions line is heavily focused on conditions so the Illusionist’s Celerity trait forces you to shift to more of a hybrid.

The shield phantasm is plenty strong on its own due to alacrity, the block is just an added benefit.

I think if anything, I’d drop the whole idea.

They (Phantasms) just prevent proper balancing of illusions as a whole.

Rather I’d do something like this:

Phantasmal Berserker
Empower one of your greatsword clones. If you don’t have one, instantly create one near your target. The empowered clone will them whirlwind through your target, damaging and crippling enemies along the path.
Extra greatsword clones will join in the attack, crippling but not damaging targets they hit.

And so on.

Torch still wins if you’re playing burst.

Coulter.2315:

Torch still wins if you’re playing burst.

Yeah but the iMage only provides shatter fodder on a ridiculously long cooldown. It has no other redeeming qualities.

In order to go against the prevailing current a little here, part of the reason is that the more offensively oriented phantasms do have a pretty significant impact when they initially appear. Berserker is essentially a warrior greatsword whirl that comes from an unexpected direction, Duellist is an Unload, and so on. Many of these are effectively a strong attack in their own right, and if the phantasm happens to survive long enough to do it again… bonus!

<em>If</em> the phantasm is generated in the first place, and doesn’t die to random AoE/cleave before it can pull off its first attack.

There is a trait that can help against the latter, but I think for such a significant part of their loadout, phantasms are probably too easily countered. Being able to generate a phantasm without having line-of-sight was too powerful in WvW, but currently all it takes is Aegis at the right time and the phantasm doesn’t appear at all. Making it so that the phantasm generation could be blocked, evaded, and so on was overkill.

So my proposition would be to make the phantasm generation be something that can’t be blocked, evaded, or prevented by anything other than line-of-sight. Using active defenses would still protect against the phantasm’s attack, but like AoE fields and multi-hit attacks from players, one well-timed block won’t necessarily protect you against the whole thing. This would mean that using Phantasmal Berserker should almost always result in a crippling line passing through at least one opponent – seems like a decent attack to me even (perhaps especially) if it’s immediately followed by a shatter.

Some of the less impressive phantasms could possibly do with acting as a regular skill as well – however, for more offensive-oriented phantasms at least, I’d be leery of something that delays the phantasm spawning. I’m using shield in PvP because heh, defense on a mesmer is good to have, but there are times when I miss having a second instant-cast phantasm that I could call to help finish someone off.