Guild Wars 2

Vague Memory.2817:

I just don’t see why wells aren’t made in to glamour fields (preferably not just ethereal ones). This would add more utility to them, considering most people didn’t seem that happy with the way they functioned. A lot of good suggestions for wells were made after the first BWE but no notable changes were made.

All Wells are fields. The Healing one is a Light Field, the Elite one is a Dark Field, and the rest are Ethereal.

Now we have 3 Light Fields, [still] too many Ethereal Fields, and 1 Dark Field.

And light and dark fields are similarly as worthless as ethereal. Retaliation is a garbage boon in PvE so you don’t want a light field covering a fire field that would give you might instead.

Unfortunately the only worthwhile fields are frost/water/fire/smoke fields.

Nobody will use elite Well of Gravity in PvE. When it had the stun+pull it had some niche potential but as usual PvP balancing guts everything for the mesmer in PvE.

I mean, come on, and elite to accomplish something in PvE that a guardian can do with binding blades+ring of warding. It’s pitiful.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Windwalker.7421:

thetarot.8246:

Yet both are detrimental in comparison to Fire, Water, Smoke, Dark, and covering those up with a crappy Ethereal Field and to a lesser degree, light field in ANY aspect of the game is a sure way to kitten people off.

Bingo! That’s what I’m saying. That really needs to change. There is no reason why the other fields can’t be made at least a little more competitive.

Same goes for balance between Blast and the other finishers, most of which are terrible as well in comparison to Blast.

The number and type of fields are part of class design. If you want to get more competitive fields be prepared to give up stuff from mesmer.

If by “part of class design” you mean “largely ignored on Mesmer”, you’re absolutely right.

Due to the number of things entirely unique to mesmers, I find finishers and fields to be entirely trivial. I understand how useful some of these other fields are. But it just feels to me like a rich kid crying that his father got him the wrong color Mercedes.

“eww we have all these ethereal fields. I know that almost no other class has them and none with our number, but I want a FIRE field.”

Daniel Handler.4816:

Due to the number of things entirely unique to mesmers, I find finishers and fields to be entirely trivial.

This is (somewhat) true.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I understand how useful some of these other fields are. But it just feels to me like a rich kid crying that his father got him the wrong color Mercedes.

“eww we have all these ethereal fields. I know that almost no other class has them and none with our number, but I want a FIRE field.”

This is not. It’s a silly outlook to hold.

Daniel Handler.4816:

“eww we have all these ethereal fields. I know that almost no other class has them and none with our number, but I want a FIRE field.”

eww, we have this Mercedes without the engine but with this nice unique pink color, but I want a WORKING car!

Bubi.5237:

Daniel Handler.4816:

“eww we have all these ethereal fields. I know that almost no other class has them and none with our number, but I want a FIRE field.”

eww, we have this Mercedes without the engine but with this nice unique pink color, but I want a WORKING car!

I’m from another family and I don’t want you having a working car. Reasons.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Due to the number of things entirely unique to mesmers, I find finishers and fields to be entirely trivial. I understand how useful some of these other fields are. But it just feels to me like a rich kid crying that his father got him the wrong color Mercedes.

“eww we have all these ethereal fields. I know that almost no other class has them and none with our number, but I want a FIRE field.”

Yeah, mesmer is totally Mercedes in PvE, not a Toyota. Clearly words from a bitter pvp guy on the “Mesmer OP QQQQQ” bandwagon.

Zenith.7301:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Due to the number of things entirely unique to mesmers, I find finishers and fields to be entirely trivial. I understand how useful some of these other fields are. But it just feels to me like a rich kid crying that his father got him the wrong color Mercedes.

“eww we have all these ethereal fields. I know that almost no other class has them and none with our number, but I want a FIRE field.”

Yeah, mesmer is totally Mercedes in PvE, not a Toyota. Clearly words from a bitter pvp guy on the “Mesmer OP QQQQQ” bandwagon.

When did PvE come up? If PvE were the problem then it wouldn’t matter as people have 25 stacks of might anyway in dungeons. The issue is granting redundancy of certain mechanics but not others. You can’t give all the classes fire fields unless you can give all the classes stealth.

I also reject the concept that mesmer is somehow not a working car because it lacks fire fields. The problem with mesmer in pve was aoe and damage modifiers, neither of which would be touched by gaining a water field.

Lastly. That I would be on the Mesmer OP QQQ bandwagon is interesting. Please continue along that trend.

Robert, please stop pretending like that is actually how it works, since a quick analysis proves that completely wrong.

You said: Mesmers and Necros are built to provide the fields for others to blast.

Why then, are most, if not all the fields on skills with very long cooldowns, when the classes that are supposed to be blasting the fields in your statement there have tons of short-CD fields that they can blast on their own?

Mesmer:
Traited for CD reductions and duration increases where possible:(Best case scenario!)
Focus 4 gets a 5 sec light field, 20 sec CD. 25% uptime.
Staff 5 has a 6 sec ethereal field, 35 sec CD. 17% uptime.

GS2: Projectile, 6.5 sec CD.
Pistol 4: projectile, 20% change, 16 sec CD.
Pistol 5: projectile, 25 sec CD.
Sword 5: Leap, 12 sec CD.
Focus 4: Blast, 30sec CD.

Utilities:
Feedback, 8 sec reflect and a 8 sec Ethereal field, 32 sec CD. 25% uptime
Null Field, 7 sec anti-boon/conti, 7 sec Ethereal field, 32 sec CD. 21.75% uptime
Veil, 8 sec light field + stealth 72 sec CD. 11% uptime.
Time Warp, 12 sec Ethereal field on a 3 min CD. 6.67% uptime.

Note that of the 8 fields, none of them have an uptime greater than 25%.
If you combine all the ethereal fields, you can get a max 60% uptime per 35 seconds, with a peak of 94% uptime in 35 seconds once every 3 minutes.

Ele.
Traited for CD reductions: (Best case scenario!)
Utility:
Tornado: 150sec CD, 15 sec lightning field and whirl finisher!

Fire:
Staff 2, 4 second fire field on 4 second CD. 100% uptime.
Staff 4, 6 second fire field on 13.5 sec CD. 44.4% uptime.
Focus 4, 8 second fire field on 13.5 sec CD. 59.26% uptime.

Sceptre 2, blast finisher, 4 sec CD.
Sceptre 3, blast finisher, 13.5 sec CD.

Water:
Staff 3: water field, 2 sec duration, 13.5 sec CD. 14.81% uptime
Staff 5: water field, 6 sec duration, 30.5 sec CD. 19.67% uptime

Dagger 3: blast, 10 sec CD.
Focus 5: Blast 16.75 sec CD.

Lightning:
Staff 5: lightning field, 4 sec CD, 26.75sec CD. 14.95% uptime

Earth:
Staff 1: Projectile, 100% chance. Has .75sec cast.
Staff 5: Projectile, 100% chance, 20 sec CD.

Staff 2: Blast, 4 sec CD.
Dagger 3: Projectile AND Leap, 8 sec CD.
Dagger 4: Blast, 30.25 sec CD.
Dagger 5: Blast, 20 sec CD, 3,25 sec cast.
sceptre 1: Projectile, 20% chance
Focus 4: Blast, 16.75 sec CD

So while Ele has fewer fields at 6, they have a number of fields with a 100% uptime! A staff ele can easily blast it’s self-produced fire fields 3 times in 35 seconds, and can projectile-finish another 3 fire fields in the same time.

If they just want to sit there and provide fields for Others to blast, in the same 35 sec CD, an ele using staff can provide 11 fire fields, 5 water fields, and 2 lightning fields.

This does not by any method approach what you said in “Mesmers and Necros provide fields for other to blast.” The reality is that Elementals provide fields for other Elementals(if they choose to not do it themselves!) to finish.

I get where the original Mesmer design perspective began, but it honestly feels a little outdated as, after 3 years we know how much of the player-player interactivity revolves around field and blast synergy. It’s the central, unique mechanic to group play which is the whole point of an MMO and it does feel rather odd depriving someone from this core mechanic based on class choice.

By adding even just one reliable blast finisher to Mesmer and Necromancer it will allow these two classes to participate in these core activities in a minor way.

Robert can we add new functionality to Master of Fragmentation? Something like activating shatter creates a blast finisher on mesmer himself, kind of fits the name as well.

With IP being baselined, power mesmers are reluctant to pick Illusion traitline because Master of Fragmentation offers less than other traitlines’ GM traits. Illusion is offering too little for power mesmers, most power mesmers who do choose this line are picking it for shatter CD.

While condition mesmers mainly pick this line, they will pick ineptitude any time of the day.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Robert can we add new functionality to Master of Fragmentation? Something like activating shatter creates a blast finisher on mesmer himself, kind of fits the name as well.

With IP being baselined, power mesmers are reluctant to pick Illusion traitline because Master of Fragmentation offers less than other traitlines’ GM traits. Illusion is offering too little for power mesmers, most power mesmers who do choose this line are picking it for shatter CD.

While condition mesmers mainly pick this line, they will pick ineptitude any time of the day.

This is a great idea – even if it was only Mind Wrack which was enhanced to a blast finisher with Master of Fragmentation (I mean the 10% extra crit chance is pretty… mediocre), and leave the enhancements of the rest (cripple, aoe daze and reflect) the same.

Curunen.8729:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Robert can we add new functionality to Master of Fragmentation? Something like activating shatter creates a blast finisher on mesmer himself, kind of fits the name as well.

With IP being baselined, power mesmers are reluctant to pick Illusion traitline because Master of Fragmentation offers less than other traitlines’ GM traits. Illusion is offering too little for power mesmers, most power mesmers who do choose this line are picking it for shatter CD.

While condition mesmers mainly pick this line, they will pick ineptitude any time of the day.

This is a great idea – even if it was only Mind Wrack which was enhanced to a blast finisher with Master of Fragmentation (I mean the 10% extra crit chance is pretty… mediocre), and leave the enhancements of the rest (cripple, aoe daze and reflect) the same.

I second this. Master of Fragmentation can improve F1 to be a blast finisher (maybe just the mesmer IP is blast finisher, other illusions shattered dont count).

I think its fair that if you dont want mesmers to readily have access to blast finishers like other classes, you can still give them but lock behind certain trait to force people spec for it.

Lots of lines have terrible grandmasters. After the Harmonious Mantras nerf for pvp reasons, PvE mesmers have no viable grandmaster in Dueling for PvE.

Illusion has terrible minors (confusion on shatter, useless for a power spec and confusion is the worst pve condition anyways) and either Ineptitude or Master of Fragmentation, both of which have nothing to write home about.

Mesmer doesn’t need more blastfinishers. More leaps would be much more interesting.

But even than the weak fields should be made more interesting. Light is bad in almost all aspects. Ethereal needs longer duration combos to be anywhere close to the power of fire/water/smoke. Dark… blind on leap but lifesteal on projectil, wtf.

Ele is just able to use the strongest finishers in combination with the strongest fields. That’s one part of the problem that leads to it being the most important class in the game. No wonder Tempest isn’t fanfavorite, core ele has everything you would ever need easily accessable.

The directions seen in Reaper and Berserker seem good to me.

More leaps isn’t really interesting. Look at thief, the only thing that the leap-spam is known for is stealth because the rest are somewhat lackluster (I mean, Dazing strike is nice but Lightning Field is about as abundant as Dark Fields).

While I’m not advocating more blasts, I don’t think more leaps is necessary (especially since we have pretty good leaps in our weapons with Sword3 and Staff2).

Esplen.3940:

we have pretty good leaps in our weapons with Sword3 .

Kappa, right?
Saying sword 3 is a good skill for a leap finisher when you rely on a clone and an enemy target close and basically standing static cause it may fail due LoS or out of range…
Who stands still inside an enemy field anyway…

FJSAMA.2867:

Kappa, right?
Saying sword 3 is a good skill for a leap finisher when you rely on a clone and an enemy target close and basically standing static cause it may fail due LoS or out of range…
Who stands still inside an enemy field anyway…

If YOU are standing in the allied field and sword #3 to an enemy, you’ll get the “reward”.. Even if the clone was destroyed and you are not leaping anywhere!
And Sword #5 gives you the reward on summon, too. I’m not saying it’s the best leap-finisher in game, but for those limited fields we have, it’s not horrible (12s and 20s recharge.. a “bit” less than our usual Pink Bubbles Field’s..)

Bubi.5237:

FJSAMA.2867:

Kappa, right?
Saying sword 3 is a good skill for a leap finisher when you rely on a clone and an enemy target close and basically standing static cause it may fail due LoS or out of range…
Who stands still inside an enemy field anyway…

If YOU are standing in the allied field and sword #3 to an enemy, you’ll get the “reward”.. Even if the clone was destroyed and you are not leaping anywhere!

Its false. You only activate combo finisher on yourself when you use 2nd instance of the skill, the swap.
Im not saying its a terrible skill, im saying it is a terrible combo finisher leap.

FJSAMA.2867:

Its false. You only activate combo finisher on yourself when you use 2nd instance of the skill, the swap.
Im not saying its a terrible skill, im saying it is a terrible combo finisher leap.

As the clone-summon part does not indicate a leap finisher, I thought it can’t be misunderstood.. seems like I was mistaken.

Bubi.5237:

FJSAMA.2867:

Its false. You only activate combo finisher on yourself when you use 2nd instance of the skill, the swap.
Im not saying its a terrible skill, im saying it is a terrible combo finisher leap.

As the clone-summon part does not indicate a leap finisher, I thought it can’t be misunderstood.. seems like I was mistaken.

I may be wrong, but I believe the clone itself still has a leap finisher as part of old functionality. Maybe I’m just thinking about Swordsman.

Either way, if you Leap-Swap immediately, it’s still a Leap finisher and the clone is typically not dead within that timeframe (if you queue it up).

The swap in and out of Torch to scepter is plenty of blast for me, considering I provide different skills, Feedback, Timewarp. Mesmers are not considered unviable, they just tend to be incompetent players in pve which lack skill. :P

Scapper.4236:

The swap in and out of Torch to scepter is plenty of blast for me, considering I provide different skills, Feedback, Timewarp. Mesmers are not considered unviable, they just tend to be incompetent players in pve which lack skill. :P

Really? One single blast, on a 30 second cooldown, that doesn’t even blast when you press the button, but 3/6 seconds later is enough for you? And providing a couple of random ethereal fields, the least wanted field in almost every situation in the game is enough for you?

Different strokes for different folks I guess. You prefer to be useless, I prefer to be useful.

Fay.2357:

Scapper.4236:

The swap in and out of Torch to scepter is plenty of blast for me, considering I provide different skills, Feedback, Timewarp. Mesmers are not considered unviable, they just tend to be incompetent players in pve which lack skill. :P

Different strokes for different folks I guess. You prefer to be useless, I prefer to be useful.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh burrrrrrrrrrrrn.

OR lets just make Master of Fragmenation useful GM worthy of use…

Master of Fragmentation
Mind Wrack: Now figure as Blast Finisher per illusion (also Persona work as one)
Cry of Frustration: apply Cripple and Slow to enemy
Diversion: Aoe interrupt, apply Alcarity(3s) to nearby allies
Distortion: Apply to Nearby allies, reflect Projectales

This little changes (not even dmg wise) could make play of Mesmer interesting. Traited Blast finisher is great, if you want it, you take it, but you NEED sacriface other things. This could open new builds for Mesmer. Cripple and slow will be very usefull, as AoE interrupt and Alcarity to ally. And Distortion will bring cool utility that no1 else can do.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The number and type of fields are part of class design. If you want to get more competitive fields be prepared to give up stuff from mesmer.

I have to wonder if you even read what I say, or if you did, how you could misinterpret it so grossly.

Let me clarify by retorting to your childish drivel considering the Mercedes (clearly a Pinto but whatever) and the fire fields.

I clearly said I don’t want fire fields, or more blast finishers even aside from maybe 1 working/usable one on either GS3 or making the Torch one actually useable.

What I said was I want ALL combo fields that are currently clearly inferior to the likes of Fire & Water, to be boosted in some way. I even said, I don’t care if this boost is fairly minor and leaves Fire & Water kings, as I don’t want to copy what they have and they clearly cover some of the most important aspects of PvP combat.

What I am saying is make the Light Aura not terrible, for example. Boost all the current effects on Light, Etheral, Dark, etc. to get something, anything at all, to bring them just one step closer to Fire and Water (and Smoke).

That’s how you balance abilities. You don’t create 2 God Mode combo fields, and put utter crap on the others, and then leave it like that forever! That’s stupid! There is nothing wrong with making all combo fields slightly more competitive to each other. This is not going to make Mesmers Blast their Etheral fields for 25 stacks of AoE Might, nor will we be blasting our Etheral fields for multiple free heals.

I’m talking, add a Boon and/or Condition here or there to each of the sub-par fields to bring them up a notch. Then wait and see, let it play out, and if it’s still bad then revisit them again 6 months later.

Cram your Mercedes crap, no one is asking for Fire/Water Fields here that I’ve seen.

It’s about a legitimate complaint that the one Blast finisher we have is clearly unusable in a tactical way, especially with PU, and that the fields we have access to are often not a boon but a detriment to our teams!

Windwalker.7421:

It’s about a legitimate complaint that the one Blast finisher we have is clearly unusable in a tactical way, especially with PU, and that the fields we have access to are often not a boon but a detriment to our teams!

Hear, hear!

Windwalker.7421:

Daniel Handler.4816:

The number and type of fields are part of class design. If you want to get more competitive fields be prepared to give up stuff from mesmer.

I have to wonder if you even read what I say, or if you did, how you could misinterpret it so grossly.

Let me clarify by retorting to your childish drivel considering the Mercedes (clearly a Pinto but whatever) and the fire fields.

I clearly said I don’t want fire fields, or more blast finishers even aside from maybe 1 working/usable one on either GS3 or making the Torch one actually useable.

What I said was I want ALL combo fields that are currently clearly inferior to the likes of Fire & Water, to be boosted in some way. I even said, I don’t care if this boost is fairly minor and leaves Fire & Water kings, as I don’t want to copy what they have and they clearly cover some of the most important aspects of PvP combat.

What I am saying is make the Light Aura not terrible, for example. Boost all the current effects on Light, Etheral, Dark, etc. to get something, anything at all, to bring them just one step closer to Fire and Water (and Smoke).

That’s how you balance abilities. You don’t create 2 God Mode combo fields, and put utter crap on the others, and then leave it like that forever! That’s stupid! There is nothing wrong with making all combo fields slightly more competitive to each other. This is not going to make Mesmers Blast their Etheral fields for 25 stacks of AoE Might, nor will we be blasting our Etheral fields for multiple free heals.

I’m talking, add a Boon and/or Condition here or there to each of the sub-par fields to bring them up a notch. Then wait and see, let it play out, and if it’s still bad then revisit them again 6 months later.

Cram your Mercedes crap, no one is asking for Fire/Water Fields here that I’ve seen.

It’s about a legitimate complaint that the one Blast finisher we have is clearly unusable in a tactical way, especially with PU, and that the fields we have access to are often not a boon but a detriment to our teams!

You misinterpret comment order in that you think the Mercedes comment is in response to you. The metaphor is that I see nothing wrong with the situation. And it’s the sub par field attitude I don’t like. The quality of water and fire fields is balanced by lack of access to certain mechanics. They provide healing and might these God mode fields. Such things can be obtained elsewhere.

As for your other comments I will repeat my previous response. What are you willing to give up for more competitive fields.

Buffing ethereal or light fields as you would suggest would be a direct buff to mesmer or guardian. Any field you buff, buffs the class with the most access, which is not balance.

But since you think this is drivel I’ll bite. Rank the field in order of importance. Let’s see how practical your balance is.

Poison
Light
Dark
Lightning
Ethereal
Fire
Water
Ice
Smoke

Just as a quick note:

Saying that you can get might and healing elsewhere other than fields is disingenuous verging on flat out falsification.

With a water field, one field can be dropped and then blasted by many people at the same time. Not only does this avoid 5 target aoe limits (as each blast has a separate limit), it also provides burst healing on a scale that’s not even remotely accessible otherwise.

Might is a similar situation in that spamming blasts on a field can stack many people up to 25 might, a feat that can’t be accomplished in any other realistic way. Additionally, stacking 25 might at all is more or less limited to a PS warrior or spamming blasts on fields. Since PS requires hitting mobs, the only viable way to stack 25 might on a group out of combat is with blasting a fire field.

No matter what way you look at it, fire and water fields are uniquely powerful in this game, and nothing else even comes close. They provide unique and extremely powerful capabilities when used properly.

As for the fields…

Poison: Useless. Weakness is easily obtained with other skills, and poison projectile finishers are underwhelming.

Light: Awful. The light aura is low duration and really niche, can’t be shared easily, and doesn’t really have noteworthy effects. The projectile and whirl finishers are incredibly hard to use effectively.

Dark: Awful. Why waste blast finishers to do aoe blindness when there are so many other ways of doing that? The life steal mechanic is really weak too.

Lightning: Blasting this gives incredible access to group swiftness. The other effects are less noteworthy.

Ethereal: Chaos armor is okish, but if you’re blasting for chaos armor, you could instead be blasting for might/healing, which would be better.

Fire: Obviously fantastic.

Water: Also obviously fantastic.

Ice: It’s ok. The frost aura defensive boost is very significant, but it’s difficult to maintain in any realistic fashion.

Smoke: Fantastic. You can accomplish extremely powerful stealth maneuvers by blasting smoke fields that can’t be done any other way.

Daniel Handler.4816:

But since you think this is drivel I’ll bite. Rank the field in order of importance. Let’s see how practical your balance is.

Poison
Light
Dark
Lightning
Ethereal
Fire
Water
Ice
Smoke

Poison – useless
Light – useless
Dark – useless
Lightning – swiftness
Ethereal – useless
Fire – migh
Water – heal
Ice – useless
Smoke – stealth

Order of importance: Might > Healing > Stealth > Swiftness > Useless

If the auras would stack in time, maybe ethereal/ice would be a bit better, but this way..

Bubi.5237:

Daniel Handler.4816:

But since you think this is drivel I’ll bite. Rank the field in order of importance. Let’s see how practical your balance is.

Poison
Light
Dark
Lightning
Ethereal
Fire
Water
Ice
Smoke

Poison – useless
Light – useless
Dark – useless
Lightning – swiftness
Ethereal – useless
Fire – migh
Water – heal
Ice – useless
Smoke – stealth

Order of importance: Might > Healing > Stealth > Swiftness > Useless

If the auras would stack in time, maybe ethereal/ice would be a bit better, but this way..

And as expected, ele fields win + eles have all the finishers to use them… Design balance!

I think it’s more along the lines of every field has gone through numerous changes to nerf their viability. Auras don’t stack duration and have very static effects. Healing, Stealth, Might, and to some degree Swiftness, are all stacking effects from fields that also have little to no downsides (Swiftness stacking is usually done near instantaneously, otherwise it’s better to just run and scream at each other #retreat).

Think about it this way: Since most fields provide auras with leaps (and some with blasts too, because that’s cool… not), what would the game be like with all Auras?

Let’s take a look at all the auras and see how strong they are:

Fire Shield: Burns foes (1s) and grants might (10s) when you are struck (1s ICD per person).
Frost Aura: Chill foes (1s) that strike you (1s ICD per person). Incoming Damage reduced by 10% – Stacks duration (only when blasted).
Magnetic Aura: Reflect projectiles.
Shocking Aura: Stun foes (1s) when struck (2s IC per person).
Light Aura: When struck gain 2s retal (1s ICD), apply 8 vuln.
Chaos Armor: When struck give yourself one of prot (5s), regen (3s), swiftness (3s) and apply one of three blind (3s), confusion (3s), crippled (3s).

Of these, I would rank them as:
Magnetic > Shocking > Frost > Light > Fire = Chaos

Of course, Magnetic and Shocking are both only obtained through the use of skills and not fields. Additionally all the auras last only 5s (bar Magnetic and Shocking with durations based on skill) and are not stacked with the exception of Frost aura.

If we were to instead flip the tables and not buff fields but nerf fields that are too strong, would it instead be fair if Fire and Lightning field provided their aura in AoE upon blast? Would it be fair for them to introduce new Auras that diminish the effects of blast stacking to nerf Water and Smoke Fields?

The second question did happen in regards to Light Aura in case you forgot.

Personally, I don’t think the Aura approach to fields (both in blasting and leaping) is very fun play, but at the same time, I believe that all fields should be on a level playing field (not necessary equal in effects but at least a level playing field).

One final thing to note: Blasting a water field has a 0.5 Healing Power Ratio, one of the higher ratios in the game relating to healing. If water fields were to get streamlined with the rest of the game, you’d apply either Regeneration or a Regen-like Aura.

You can stick your head in the sand and pretend that all the fields are viable, but when fields are only overlapped when you absolutely need the effect (e.g. reflect), then maybe they need to be reconsidered.

That’s actually a pretty good suggestion. I mean, I’m not sure that Fire/Water blasts are “too strong” in an absolute sense. However, your suggestion is probably as good as any to bring all the fields onto the same baseline. And if any/all of the field combos end up too weak afterward, then their respective Auras can be adjusted as necessary.

Fay.2357:

Just as a quick note:

Saying that you can get might and healing elsewhere other than fields is disingenuous verging on flat out falsification.

Group utility is not the pinnacle of skills. But go on calling people disingenuous. I’ll continue watching pvp games where the whole game occurs without a single water field being blast. I’ll continue to duel thieves and neither of us blast might or water fields. You seem so caught up in the rhetoric that you forgot to check if your words actually make sense.

With a water field, one field can be dropped and then blasted by many people at the same time. Not only does this avoid 5 target aoe limits (as each blast has a separate limit), it also provides burst healing on a scale that’s not even remotely accessible otherwise.

Don’t really care. This seems only applicable to WvW.

Might is a similar situation in that spamming blasts on a field can stack many people up to 25 might, a feat that can’t be accomplished in any other realistic way. Additionally, stacking 25 might at all is more or less limited to a PS warrior or spamming blasts on fields. Since PS requires hitting mobs, the only viable way to stack 25 might on a group out of combat is with blasting a fire field.

Are you arguing for a specific game mode?

No matter what way you look at it, fire and water fields are uniquely powerful in this game, and nothing else even comes close. They provide unique and extremely powerful capabilities when used properly.

So is portal when used properly, or stealth, or moa. Yet we criticize the other classes who make posts asking to get their own version of the portal skill.

The direction was to list the fields in order of importance. Not to write snarky heavily Mesmer biased criticism.

As for the fields…

Poison: Useless. Weakness is easily obtained with other skills, and poison projectile finishers are underwhelming.

Light: Awful. The light aura is low duration and really niche, can’t be shared easily, and doesn’t really have noteworthy effects. The projectile and whirl finishers are incredibly hard to use effectively.

This one required comment though. I do not think you understand this field. Calling it incredibly hard to use effectively borders on falsification.

Dark: Awful. Why waste blast finishers to do aoe blindness when there are so many other ways of doing that? The life steal mechanic is really weak too.

Lightning: Blasting this gives incredible access to group swiftness. The other effects are less noteworthy.

Ethereal: Chaos armor is okish, but if you’re blasting for chaos armor, you could instead be blasting for might/healing, which would be better.

Fire: Obviously fantastic.

Water: Also obviously fantastic.

Ice: It’s ok. The frost aura defensive boost is very significant, but it’s difficult to maintain in any realistic fashion.

Smoke: Fantastic. You can accomplish extremely powerful stealth maneuvers by blasting smoke fields that can’t be done any other way.

Powerful stealth maneuvers… really? Because as far as I know two PU mass invis will do the trick.

Please don’t criticize someone for being disingenuous, and then make a post filled with exaggerations.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

Scapper.4236:

The swap in and out of Torch to scepter is plenty of blast for me, considering I provide different skills, Feedback, Timewarp. Mesmers are not considered unviable, they just tend to be incompetent players in pve which lack skill. :P

Different strokes for different folks I guess. You prefer to be useless, I prefer to be useful.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh burrrrrrrrrrrrn.

More like rudeness. I don’t know what game mode Pyro plays. It seems like Pve. Because in WvW they don’t care about my blast finisher, and in PvP they dont care about my blast finisher. We use feedback, and we time warp. Incidentally they are ethereal fields that people can benefit off of. Your version of usefulness leaves much to be desired.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Group utility is not the pinnacle of skills. But go on calling people disingenuous. I’ll continue watching pvp games where the whole game occurs without a single water field being blast.

Water fields are somewhat less commonly used in PvP. On the other hand, the self-blasting of fire fields is the primary method by which celestial elementalists produce their extraordinary might upkeep. Attempting to argue that blasting fire fields doesn’t have a profound impact on PvP is…foolish.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’ll continue to duel thieves and neither of us blast might or water fields.

Quite so. However, thieves rely on leap combos through smoke fields for the majority of stealth upkeep in many builds, which, you might have noticed, was one of the other fields I mentioned as quite useful.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Don’t really care. This seems only applicable to WvW.

Water field blasting is primarily limited to WvW. This is mostly because you don’t actually need that kind of healing in any other game mode. However, I find it curious that you’re completely discounting the existence of an entire game mode. Do you care to explain why you feel that WvW isn’t important in GW2?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you arguing for a specific game mode?

You do indeed seem to have willfully forgotten how elementalists maintain their might stacks. I recommend keeping more abreast of the current PvP meta, it might be enlightening for you.

Daniel Handler.4816:

So is portal when used properly, or stealth, or moa. Yet we criticize the other classes who make posts asking to get their own version of the portal skill.

So you’re comparing utility only available on massive cooldowns to generic combo fields + finishers that have a variety of availability across classes? Seems like a bit of a lopsided comparison to me.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The direction was to list the fields in order of importance. Not to write snarky heavily Mesmer biased criticism.

Of course, but I felt it important to provide a bit more commentary on my decisions for the usefulness of fields. I’m sure it won’t be too taxing on your part to order them properly…

Daniel Handler.4816:

This one required comment though. I do not think you understand this field. Calling it incredibly hard to use effectively borders on falsification.

So what you’re trying to claim is that the light projectile/whirl finishers, which cleanse allies they pass through, are easy to use? In that case, kindly tell me the last time you were able to aim a whirl finisher. Additionally, explain the method by which you’ve reliably shot projectile finishers that are necessarily targeted at enemies through your allies without either pure luck or an extraordinary amount of coordination for a slight benefit.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Powerful stealth maneuvers… really? Because as far as I know two PU mass invis will do the trick.

Mass invis will only stealth 10 people, and it’s on a 90s cooldown. Blasting smoke fields can neatly bypass that target limit without difficulty. Additionally, it allows you to obtain mass stealth without forcing anything more than a thief to drop pistol 5 or smokescreen, compared to the rather significant trait investment necessary for a mesmer to stealth many people for a time.

Daniel Handler.4816:

More like rudeness. I don’t know what game mode Pyro plays. It seems like Pve. Because in WvW they don’t care about my blast finisher, and in PvP they dont care about my blast finisher.

Yes, that’s because you functionally don’t have a blast finisher. If you did, however, you’d be expected to blast fires and waters along with everyone else for the enormous group benefits it provides. Instead, you just tag along being useless whilst everyone else is contributing at that point.

Daniel Handler.4816:

We use feedback, and we time warp. Incidentally they are ethereal fields that people can benefit off of. Your version of usefulness leaves much to be desired.

Yes, feedback and time warp are very nice. I’m glad you can enjoy being wanted for the singular purpose of pressing a couple of buttons and then relaxing for the rest of a fight.

Also, tell me the last time you heard someone say ‘someone drop an ethereal field so we can blast it!’. Ah, that’s right, that’s never happened.

Remember that time when we were only wanted for Veil?

Fay.2357:

Also, tell me the last time you heard someone say ‘someone drop an ethereal field so we can blast it!’. Ah, that’s right, that’s never happened.

Actually… some years ago, there were a few commanders in wvw who liked to get Bubbles (Big Pink Bubbles!) before clash on their meleetrain.. when someone called Nullfield/TW, sometimes he said to Blast it
‘Cos Big Pink Bubbles on Charrs is OP! (And it’s easy, hammer guard/WH warrior in a party and a fast blast while moving through…)
The problem is that there is no low-CD Ethereal field, you can’t just waste TW/Nullfield for blasting.. while staff eles have their Fire Fields on a much lower CD. Quaggan, even their water fields have lower CD…

Bubi.5237:

Fay.2357:

Also, tell me the last time you heard someone say ‘someone drop an ethereal field so we can blast it!’. Ah, that’s right, that’s never happened.

Actually… some years ago, there were a few commanders in wvw who liked to get Bubbles (Big Pink Bubbles!) before clash on their meleetrain.. when someone called Nullfield/TW, sometimes he said to Blast it
‘Cos Big Pink Bubbles on Charrs is OP! (And it’s easy, hammer guard/WH warrior in a party and a fast blast while moving through…)
The problem is that there is no low-CD Ethereal field, you can’t just waste TW/Nullfield for blasting.. while staff eles have their Fire Fields on a much lower CD. Quaggan, even their water fields have lower CD…

Also, I’ve always felt useless at some point during a raid while on Mesmer. While playing zerk staff ele I’ve never once had that problem. This is putting the entire field/blast combo discussion aside :p

Hell, I’ve never felt useless on a zerk rifle/GS war during a raid and they don’t even have fields or blasts. Go figure.

Michal.4513:

OR lets just make Master of Fragmenation useful GM worthy of use…

Master of Fragmentation
Mind Wrack: Now figure as Blast Finisher per illusion (also Persona work as one)
Cry of Frustration: apply Cripple and Slow to enemy
Diversion: Aoe interrupt, apply Alcarity(3s) to nearby allies
Distortion: Apply to Nearby allies, reflect Projectales

This little changes (not even dmg wise) could make play of Mesmer interesting. Traited Blast finisher is great, if you want it, you take it, but you NEED sacriface other things. This could open new builds for Mesmer. Cripple and slow will be very usefull, as AoE interrupt and Alcarity to ally. And Distortion will bring cool utility that no1 else can do.

Sounds really fun but HOLY kitten that is op

Wouldn’t it be much better to tackle this at the actual source of the issue?

• Rebalance AE fields. There shouldn’t be some (fire/water) which are so much stronger than the others. Increase Chaos Armor duration, nerf water healing, nerf fire might duration, etc.
• Rebalance finishers in general. Blast finishers are weaker in output than Leap finishers, but by too little to balance against their number of targets. This needs a look at.

Do that, and most of the issues disappear automatically. Us mostly having Ethereal fields isn’t a problem any more, us lacking Blast finishers isn’t one either as Blast is no longer the end-all-be-all of combo fields.

Then you have us, engineers, with lots of fields and lots of finishers

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Group utility is not the pinnacle of skills. But go on calling people disingenuous. I’ll continue watching pvp games where the whole game occurs without a single water field being blast.

Water fields are somewhat less commonly used in PvP. On the other hand, the self-blasting of fire fields is the primary method by which celestial elementalists produce their extraordinary might upkeep. Attempting to argue that blasting fire fields doesn’t have a profound impact on PvP is…foolish.

If you are going to balance around a single build on a single class then that would be your unwise decision. Boon conversion was added to the meta and the build itself is going to be nerfed soon anyway.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’ll continue to duel thieves and neither of us blast might or water fields.

Quite so. However, thieves rely on leap combos through smoke fields for the majority of stealth upkeep in many builds, which, you might have noticed, was one of the other fields I mentioned as quite useful.

A response that I could easily retort by changing the example to Mesmer and Necro. Or any class that is not an Ele, an Engie, or a Thief.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Don’t really care. This seems only applicable to WvW.

Water field blasting is primarily limited to WvW. This is mostly because you don’t actually need that kind of healing in any other game mode. However, I find it curious that you’re completely discounting the existence of an entire game mode. Do you care to explain why you feel that WvW isn’t important in GW2?

Because the game isn’t balanced around an individual game mode. Placing importance on one mode leads to shortages in the other.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Are you arguing for a specific game mode?

You do indeed seem to have willfully forgotten how elementalists maintain their might stacks. I recommend keeping more abreast of the current PvP meta, it might be enlightening for you.

I don’t find that one build on one class in the meta is a requirement to buff everything else. What is more likely, as the elementalist forum itself predicts, that build will be nerfed.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

So is portal when used properly, or stealth, or moa. Yet we criticize the other classes who make posts asking to get their own version of the portal skill.

So you’re comparing utility only available on massive cooldowns to generic combo fields + finishers that have a variety of availability across classes? Seems like a bit of a lopsided comparison to me.

Remember that many times cooldown is indicative of strength. There is reasoning behind Moa having a higher one than shake it off. Added to this is as you said the “variety of availability” across classes. Many elementalist would give up the evasion and fire field of staff 4 in fire attunement if they converted it into a blink instead. We have finishers as well. You just don’t like our fields or our finishers it seems.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

direction was to list the fields in order of importance. Not to write snarky heavily Mesmer biased criticism.

Of course, but I felt it important to provide a bit more commentary on my decisions for the usefulness of fields. I’m sure it won’t be too taxing on your part to order them properly…

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

This one required comment though. I do not think you understand this field. Calling it incredibly hard to use effectively borders on falsification.

So what you’re trying to claim is that the light projectile/whirl finishers, which cleanse allies they pass through, are easy to use? In that case, kindly tell me the last time you were able to aim a whirl finisher. Additionally, explain the method by which you’ve reliably shot projectile finishers that are necessarily targeted at enemies through your allies without either pure luck or an extraordinary amount of coordination for a slight benefit.

It is the basic skill behind using focus. You summon the warden and lay the curtain between its feet. Anyone in melee range of this will have at least one condition cleansed. Similarly doing curtain and then either magic bullet or mirror blade while in melee range works as well. Mirror blade is especially potent as the multiple bounces will remove more conditions. And for cross class coordination it is extremely easy in zergs for a wall of reflection and rangers to pew pew through it, cleansing things on their way. A guardian using hammer will be cleansed any time his ally shot a projectile finisher at the thing he is smashing.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Powerful stealth maneuvers… really? Because as far as I know two PU mass invis will do the trick.

Mass invis will only stealth 10 people, and it’s on a 90s cooldown. Blasting smoke fields can neatly bypass that target limit without difficulty. Additionally, it allows you to obtain mass stealth without forcing anything more than a thief to drop pistol 5 or smokescreen, compared to the rather significant trait investment necessary for a mesmer to stealth many people for a time.

It isn’t a significant investment when most of the time it would have been done anyway. What is significant is wasting all those blast finishers. Both are done in zergs. The mass invis is preferable because it doesn’t carry of the risk of revealing people when they hit someone with the skill that generates that finisher. Some groups drop the thieves entirely.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

More like rudeness. I don’t know what game mode Pyro plays. It seems like Pve. Because in WvW they don’t care about my blast finisher, and in PvP they dont care about my blast finisher.

Yes, that’s because you functionally don’t have a blast finisher. If you did, however, you’d be expected to blast fires and waters along with everyone else for the enormous group benefits it provides. Instead, you just tag along being useless whilst everyone else is contributing at that point.

Some people contribute in ways the others cant. Necromancer and Mesmer are the only ways to remove boons at this point. No one can do everything. And the synergy of combo fields and finishers is not as central as you would believe.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

We use feedback, and we time warp. Incidentally they are ethereal fields that people can benefit off of. Your version of usefulness leaves much to be desired.

Yes, feedback and time warp are very nice. I’m glad you can enjoy being wanted for the singular purpose of pressing a couple of buttons and then relaxing for the rest of a fight.

Also, tell me the last time you heard someone say ‘someone drop an ethereal field so we can blast it!’. Ah, that’s right, that’s never happened.

The classes will never be equal. The fields will never be equal. If you were to do that you would buff the classes that have a certain field extensively.

Robert Gee.9246:

From a design perspective, Mesmers are more about providing fields and less about activating them. It’s not just blast finishers, Mesmers lack reliable sources of many other finishers too. Necromancers fill a similar role. By contrast you might notice that Warriors have lots of finishers but not many fields.

We don’t always get this balance right (and I think there is a different discussion to be had about when we don’t) but I hope that clarifies what we were going for in the case of Mesmers.

How about rangers having only one blast finisher Warhorn5?

Gorisek.2678:

Robert Gee.9246:

From a design perspective, Mesmers are more about providing fields and less about activating them. It’s not just blast finishers, Mesmers lack reliable sources of many other finishers too. Necromancers fill a similar role. By contrast you might notice that Warriors have lots of finishers but not many fields.

We don’t always get this balance right (and I think there is a different discussion to be had about when we don’t) but I hope that clarifies what we were going for in the case of Mesmers.

How about rangers having only one blast finisher Warhorn5?

You’re in the wrong forum.
I don’t even think Robert is the dev for Rangers, is he?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Gorisek.2678:

Robert Gee.9246:

From a design perspective, Mesmers are more about providing fields and less about activating them. It’s not just blast finishers, Mesmers lack reliable sources of many other finishers too. Necromancers fill a similar role. By contrast you might notice that Warriors have lots of finishers but not many fields.

We don’t always get this balance right (and I think there is a different discussion to be had about when we don’t) but I hope that clarifies what we were going for in the case of Mesmers.

How about rangers having only one blast finisher Warhorn5?

You’re in the wrong forum.
I don’t even think Robert is the dev for Rangers, is he?

But he is absolutely correct. Blast finishers are not the end all of a class. I don’t understand the emphasis being place upon them.

Daniel Handler.4816:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Gorisek.2678:

Robert Gee.9246:

From a design perspective, Mesmers are more about providing fields and less about activating them. It’s not just blast finishers, Mesmers lack reliable sources of many other finishers too. Necromancers fill a similar role. By contrast you might notice that Warriors have lots of finishers but not many fields.

We don’t always get this balance right (and I think there is a different discussion to be had about when we don’t) but I hope that clarifies what we were going for in the case of Mesmers.

How about rangers having only one blast finisher Warhorn5?

You’re in the wrong forum.
I don’t even think Robert is the dev for Rangers, is he?

But he is absolutely correct. Blast finishers are not the end all of a class. I don’t understand the emphasis being place upon them.

Rangers aren’t in a good place right now, I don’t know why you think this would support your premise. Indeed, Gorisek was complaining about the lack of blast finishers, not bragging.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Bubi.5237:

Fay.2357:

Also, tell me the last time you heard someone say ‘someone drop an ethereal field so we can blast it!’. Ah, that’s right, that’s never happened.

Actually… some years ago, there were a few commanders in wvw who liked to get Bubbles (Big Pink Bubbles!) before clash on their meleetrain.. when someone called Nullfield/TW, sometimes he said to Blast it
‘Cos Big Pink Bubbles on Charrs is OP! (And it’s easy, hammer guard/WH warrior in a party and a fast blast while moving through…)
The problem is that there is no low-CD Ethereal field, you can’t just waste TW/Nullfield for blasting.. while staff eles have their Fire Fields on a much lower CD. Quaggan, even their water fields have lower CD…

Also, I’ve always felt useless at some point during a raid while on Mesmer. While playing zerk staff ele I’ve never once had that problem. This is putting the entire field/blast combo discussion aside :p

Hell, I’ve never felt useless on a zerk rifle/GS war during a raid and they don’t even have fields or blasts. Go figure.

Because warriors and eles have something mesmers don’t have, and that is reliable cleave and sustained DPS.

The mesmer illusions everyone cries about in 1v1’s die upon spawn in any large scale or PvE fight by comparison.

More importantly, in team engagements there is more healing and mitigation of damage. An iberserker seems like a big deal with a 5-7k aoe nuke in 1v1 or spvp, but in WvW and PvE it’s essentially less AoE DPS or burst than 100b or Meteor Shower or Lava Font or Ice Bow or Grenades or necromancer well bombing.

So Robert Gee said we were getting Wells to help with that lack of AoE with chronomancer wells, yet all our wells have delayed big damage delivery, and only like 2 of them do any damage whatsoever and the damage is still far less than a single lava font despite having 30+ second cooldowns.

That’s the core problem with mesmer, pretty nice for duels and small scale 2v2/3v3 fights, pretty mediocre for everything else until they do something about illusion resistance to AoE.

Quite frankly the illusions should only be hit by single targeted attacks toward them, not casual cleaving or AoE spells. Otherwise mesmers will never be more than veil/portal buffbots in WvW raids/GvG and PvE content.

Mesmer sustained damage and group fight capability has been a hostage to 1v1 pvp spike balance for over 3 years.

I mean, Cry of Frustration has been useless garbage since closed beta and shortly before release despite Jon Peters asking for feedback on changing it prior to release. Nothing was ever done and today Cry of Frustration is just a wimpy Mindwrack (1 short confusion stack per clone; come on, that is absolute trash) on double the cooldown.

Diversion’s daze should stack per clone used.

Well, since that phantasm based f skill spec isn’t going to come anytime soon, how about we all try and get some phantasm love in shatters? (E.g. clones and phants shatter equally but as a phant lives longer it gains bonus effects/scaling to the shatter giving it a stronger shatter than the clone/you).