Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Well, since that phantasm based f skill spec isn’t going to come anytime soon, how about we all try and get some phantasm love in shatters? (E.g. clones and phants shatter equally but as a phant lives longer it gains bonus effects/scaling to the shatter giving it a stronger shatter than the clone/you).

Intriguing idea.
We know they can do it, because that’s how Persistence of Memory works.

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

PoM just gives a one-time bonus when a Phant expires from Shattering, it doesn’t scale with how long a Phant has been alive. And in any case I think this would backfire, Mesmers would be reluctant to Shatter if they have a Phantasm that isn’t built-up; and it would be a pain to convey this information on each individual Phant to the Mesmer in a non-confuzzling manner.

I think PoM is a nice simple step towards making Phants attractive to Shatter, but we need more: and no, a GM trait locked behind an Elite spec isn’kitten Phantasms are core to the Mesmer, as should Shatters; making them play nice should not be something you have to specialise in.

While we’re on the subject (I feel like this should be a new thread at this point), Phantasmal Haste. This trait sort of has this “built-up” problem that I mentioned in that if you Shatter too early or too late (if at all) the trait is wasted, and it clashes with Chronophantasma’s attack reset.

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

If possible, add a little icon above the phantasm and illusion circle (or recolor it) that only the Mesmer can see.

The buff would, in my mind, basically just be an invisible buff (not boon) that applies and stacks intensity with no duration. As the stacks reach certain thresholds, the color of the icons change so the Mesmer can tell.

The way I thought about it while I wrote that was based on attack cycles making PH strong in shatter builds (with a max of about 3 attack cycles or so, not that you’d really get there outside of PvE).

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

It’s an interesting idea, but it clashes with Chronomancy which emphasises Shattering quickly to get Alacrity so you can Shatter even more quickly. Sounds like something for another elite spec though.

I think for baseline stuff we should aim for simpler things, such as Phantasms just straight up having extra effects when Shattered.

.

EDIT: Okay, so I did say simpler… but how about unique effects for each Phantasm when they’re Shattered. And I’m envisioning these being baseline, not locked behind yet another elite spec.

.

Phantasmal Berserker: A greatsword briefly whirls in place where the Berserker Shattered, damaging and Crippling foes while acting as a Whirl finisher.

.

Phantasmal Duelist: Ethereal bullets shoot out of the Shattered Duelist, bouncing between enemies and Confusing them. Every bullet acts as a Projectile finisher.

.

Phantasmal Mage: The Mage explodes in a purple fireball when Shattered, Burning nearby enemies and acting as a Blast finisher (look! This is relevant to the topic!).

.

Phantasmal Swordsman: A sword flies from the Shattered Swordsman towards the Mesmer, piercing through and damaging foes in the way. If the Mesmer catches the sword, Phantasmal Swordsman’s CD is reduced.

.

Phantasmal Warden: A shield bubble is created where the Warden Shattered, absorbing projectiles for a brief period and counting as a Light field. Reflects if traited with Warden’s Feedback.

.

Phantasmal Warlock: A chaotic totem remains briefly where the Warlock Shattered, increasing the duration of conditions on nearby foes.

.

Phantasmal Disenchanter: A Null Field is briefly created where the Disenchanter Shattered, and can act as an Ethereal field.

.

Phantasmal Defender: A shield briefly remains where the Defender Shattered, granting Protection to nearby allies.

.

EDIT2: To prevent Chronophantasma from stacking too many of these effects, Phantasms will only proc them on their first Shatter.

(edited by Embolism.8106)

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Posted by: tetrodoxin.2134

tetrodoxin.2134

I know you said baseline, but this sounds exactly like sth anet would do for our next elite spec

Anet hates [your class], since [other classes] got buffs while [your class] only received nerfs.

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

I know you said baseline, but this sounds exactly like sth anet would do for our next elite spec

I know, it’s too elaborate… but I can’t help myself.

Most likely if Anet does decide to do this it would be something boring like each Shattered Phantasm giving you a few stacks of Might.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

From a design perspective, Mesmers are more about providing fields and less about activating them. It’s not just blast finishers, Mesmers lack reliable sources of many other finishers too. Necromancers fill a similar role. By contrast you might notice that Warriors have lots of finishers but not many fields.

We don’t always get this balance right (and I think there is a different discussion to be had about when we don’t) but I hope that clarifies what we were going for in the case of Mesmers.

How about rangers having only one blast finisher Warhorn5?

You’re in the wrong forum.
I don’t even think Robert is the dev for Rangers, is he?

But he is absolutely correct. Blast finishers are not the end all of a class. I don’t understand the emphasis being place upon them.

Rangers aren’t in a good place right now, I don’t know why you think this would support your premise. Indeed, Gorisek was complaining about the lack of blast finishers, not bragging.

I don’t think he was bragging. I am saying that he is absolutely correct his class has one blast finisher (technically two with traits), and in my opinion it is not the end all of the class.

Seriously justify for me adding a finisher that would make sense in a solo encounter. All of the other classes except perhaps warrior have finishers that match their class. Adding blast finishers wouldn’t change anything if you end up in a group with “inadequate” fields.

I will repeat. Fire fields and water fields only give might and healing. I am so tired of people who think 25 stacks of might and sudden burst healing is all this game is about. It is a important part, but it is already managed more than fine. Second you have things like PS Warriors or the new Revenant that can out might and out heal those fields.

What I see happening if we followed this discussion is Mesmer with perma chaos armor on themselves and their clones. This would make them way more tanky, effectively overriding the 1 second limit on debilitating conditions from the aura. Which is absolutely fantastic when you consider phantasmal defenders exist. Then more anger from the professions on the already “untouchable” mesmers who now perma cripple, blind, and confuse.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

Nothing outheals water field blasts, certainly not revenant.

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Posted by: tobascodagama.2961

tobascodagama.2961

I will repeat. Fire fields and water fields only give might and healing. I am so tired of people who think 25 stacks of might and sudden burst healing is all this game is about.

You can be tired of them all you want, that doesn’t make them wrong.

Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

I am so tired of people who think 25 stacks of might and sudden burst healing is all this game is about.

25 stacks of might = 750 power, 750 condition damage.
That’s more power than a full set of ascended berserker’s trinkets+backpack gives.
In a full berserker build, that’s a 29% increase in Power and the sudden existence of condition damage above the pre-post-patch equivalency threshold.
Applied group-wisde, that’s huge. Like, really huge. Like, you’re no longer complaining about people talking about it, you’re complaining about a fundamental design aspect of Guild Wars 2 huge.

It is a important part, but it is already managed more than fine.

If it were, it wouldn’t get stressed by They Who Establish The Meta, aka the guys that do the math every time there’s a patch to figure out what’s optimal.

Second you have things like PS Warriors or the new Revenant that can out might and out heal those fields.

If they gave Mesmers the same support potential as a PS warrior, do you really think anyone would be complaining that we can’t blast fields?

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Posted by: thetarot.8246

thetarot.8246

Group utility is not the pinnacle of skills. But go on calling people disingenuous. I’ll continue watching pvp games where the whole game occurs without a single water field being blast.

Water fields are somewhat less commonly used in PvP. On the other hand, the self-blasting of fire fields is the primary method by which celestial elementalists produce their extraordinary might upkeep. Attempting to argue that blasting fire fields doesn’t have a profound impact on PvP is…foolish.

If you are going to balance around a single build on a single class then that would be your unwise decision. Boon conversion was added to the meta and the build itself is going to be nerfed soon anyway.

There are plenty of examples of professions which someone who ‘watches PVP videos’ should already know. Particularly if one watches the top tier PvP.
Less relevant now, but still doable, Shoutbow Warrior used Longbow to provide long lasting fire fields which it could, and still can blast.

and to this day, please find me a single PvP match, Which has an Engineer in it. (You know, they’re part of the meta, last meta too.) Who doesn’t go through the usual rotation with Healing Turrent + Blasting it.

I’ll continue to duel thieves and neither of us blast might or water fields.

Quite so. However, thieves rely on leap combos through smoke fields for the majority of stealth upkeep in many builds, which, you might have noticed, was one of the other fields I mentioned as quite useful.

A response that I could easily retort by changing the example to Mesmer and Necro. Or any class that is not an Ele, an Engie, or a Thief.

If you changed the retort to Necromancer, They have a poison field + blast, convienantly on their staff, and I rate poison fields much higher than Pyro, Providing AoE weakness on a point , utterly cripples the opposition’s damage.

If you changed the retort to Guardian, it depends on the build. The burn guardian faceroll build often utilizes a fire field + whirl.

If you changed the retort to Ranger, a popular ‘dueling’ builds include being tanky as hell and using healing spring + tons of leaps, and aside from their lack of meta relevence in sPvP. They still can provide plenty of fields that people enjoy using. Fire, Water. Whether they can blast it or not isn’t the issue. They can provide desirable effects if they wished. – Where as, we cannot.

If you changed it to Mesmer. – You’re right, Unless you count Chaos Armor from Ethereal Fields, mattering -at all- in any situation. The only reason it’s even ‘decent to do’ at all is to trigger the protection if you have the right trait.

Chaos Armor is almost worthless, and is the only aura that has effects that can potentially defeat itself. If the enemy gets blinded from one attack. The next attack will miss, thus not give you a boon or trigger another condition. Random effects are for the most part, bad design. – and ever since the Blinding Befuddlement change, and the ICD was added, I’ve never been punished for attacking into Chaos Armor, on any profession.

- Recall Engineer’s Elite Skill? It used to have ‘3 Random Effects’.
Abilities you cannot count on, when you may need it, are terrible abilities..

The only time I was ever asked to lay down a Light Field, wasn’t in combat. It was so people could leap through it and get a ‘pretty princess’ aura as they faffed about. – Funnily enough, I was on my Engie at the time. Who can provide a better shaped light field and longer lasting field than Mesmer.

Don’t really care. This seems only applicable to WvW.

Water field blasting is primarily limited to WvW. This is mostly because you don’t actually need that kind of healing in any other game mode. However, I find it curious that you’re completely discounting the existence of an entire game mode. Do you care to explain why you feel that WvW isn’t important in GW2?

Because the game isn’t balanced around an individual game mode. Placing importance on one mode leads to shortages in the other.

Only your… above statement is in regards or rather, seems to be – to how little you see certain objectively powerful Combo Fields being utilized in a ‘Dueling’ situation. Even though most classes do use such. Disregarding two game modes, both PvE and WvW, in favor of a nonexistant one, seems at best, hypocritical.

As for the game not being balanced around an individual game mode. – Please look take a long look at the patch notes regarding Mesmers since the big changes to the trait system. Most of them were nerfed because of PvP, This also effected them in PvE (Where we are weak) and WvW (Where we don’t matter.)

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Posted by: knkasa.2608

knkasa.2608

Just as a quick note:

Saying that you can get might and healing elsewhere other than fields is disingenuous verging on flat out falsification.

Group utility is not the pinnacle of skills. But go on calling people disingenuous. I’ll continue watching pvp games where the whole game occurs without a single water field being blast. I’ll continue to duel thieves …

Actually, engis have their own water fields and finishers. They blast all the time. Staff eles too.

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Posted by: Kicast.1459

Kicast.1459

From a design perspective, Mesmers are more about providing fields and less about activating them. It’s not just blast finishers, Mesmers lack reliable sources of many other finishers too. Necromancers fill a similar role. By contrast you might notice that Warriors have lots of finishers but not many fields.

We don’t always get this balance right (and I think there is a different discussion to be had about when we don’t) but I hope that clarifies what we were going for in the case of Mesmers.

on left side mesmer: weak fields (most wanted ones are fire and water) with few and bad finishers (mostly leap)
on right side ele: tons of fields (the most valuable) with crazzy amounts of finishers (blasts)

Whith what you say above Robert, I understand that there is indeed an urgent discussion to be had on ele. (and also on engi)

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

high dmg? check
aoe dmg? check
high ranged dmg? check
blocks, invuls, team/own buffs? check
teleports? check
stealth? check
pets? check
multiple CCs? check

What, you don’t have enough yet? Why not just ask for iWin button?

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

high dmg? check
aoe dmg? check
high ranged dmg? check
blocks, invuls, team/own buffs? check
teleports? check
stealth? check
pets? check
multiple CCs? check

What, you don’t have enough yet? Why not just ask for iWin button?

/facepalm

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

facepalm me all you want, mesmers atm have already too much in one build…..

mesmers blasting might from random fire fields (eles, guards, wars and co.) is last thing we need

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Bubi.5237

Bubi.5237

high dmg? check
aoe dmg? check
high ranged dmg? check
blocks, invuls, team/own buffs? check
teleports? check
stealth? check
pets? check
multiple CCs? check

What, you don’t have enough yet? Why not just ask for iWin button?

/facepalm

He’s speaking about engis, don’t worry.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140

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Posted by: Levetty.1279

Levetty.1279

I will repeat. Fire fields and water fields only give might and healing. I am so tired of people who think 25 stacks of might and sudden burst healing is all this game is about.

I’m so tired of people who have a breakdown whenever people think of ways to buff Mesmer and make it useful outside of 1v1s.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Because mesmers are absolutely useless outside of 1v1~ /sarcasm

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Bubi.5237

Bubi.5237

Because mesmers are absolutely useless outside of 1v1~ /sarcasm

Where are they really useful outside of 1v1? Or to say, small-scale sPvP?
In wvw, they are roamers (1v1) or Veilbot/portalbot.. not useful.
In PvE.. are they in meta for other uses than portal-skipping/Reflect?
All of them are utilities.. not even one thing of our weapon skills are needed (well, if you have traited focus, then you can reflect.. but that’s meh)!

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140

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Posted by: Levetty.1279

Levetty.1279

Because mesmers are absolutely useless outside of 1v1~ /sarcasm

Where are they really useful outside of 1v1? Or to say, small-scale sPvP?
In wvw, they are roamers (1v1) or Veilbot/portalbot.. not useful.
In PvE.. are they in meta for other uses than portal-skipping/Reflect?
All of them are utilities.. not even one thing of our weapon skills are needed (well, if you have traited focus, then you can reflect.. but that’s meh)!

It really amazes me how out of touch people on these forums actually are about the game. They think becuase a mesmer one shot them in hotjoin becuase they were stood perfectly still in a berserker amulet spamming unload that Mesmers are great at every game mode and in every situation, completly failing to see the massive differences between the 3 game modes or even between a person who is good at PvP and them.

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Posted by: Danel.8573

Danel.8573

Why can’t the time wells blast on their last hit? Or just some of them like calamity, action and gravity. It would also add an interesting gameplay aspect, since you would have to time fields better since the blast occurs when the wells expire. However, the wells already being fields could pose a problem, if they just blast themselves…
Maybe the field can disappear just before the blast procs.

I main Mesmer and I’m really fine with not having that much finishers (especially blasts), but in my opinion, Mesmers have way to many etherial fields.
So couldn’t we at least get some new fields with the wells?

Well of Recall – this one chills enemies when it expires, so couldn’t it be an ice field instead of another ethereal? Just an example.

Another well could give a lightning field. I think it’s a bit sad that there are so many fire fields in the game and the Mesmer as nine ethereal fields as a Chronomancer, while there are fields you can only get from like two skills.

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Posted by: thetarot.8246

thetarot.8246

Why can’t the time wells blast on their last hit?
Or Maybe the field can disappear just before the blast procs.

I main Mesmer and I’m really fine with not having that much finishers (especially blasts), but in my opinion, Mesmers have way to many etherial fields.

I believe the reason why that would be a bad idea is from the same logic that Torch is a terrible blast finisher, Delayed reaction blasts require far too much set up, in a class that already requires alot of set up. – You see a Water Field, dropped by the Engie, you can’t do anything about it, as your blast occurs 3+ seconds, too late, longer if traited for PU.

Planning ahead has it’s place, but we have a lot of that already. More than any other class. Probably more than all of the others combined. “Oh I have to make a daze chain… set up, set up, set up. Pray things don’t get cleaved.”

Making Ethereal Field a desirable effect in both PvE, PvP and WvW would go a long way to make the premise of ‘We supply the fields, you blast them’ an understanding, respectable premise, but as it stands, it’s not.

Changing the ‘Blast’ of Ethereal Field to provide random boons to allies, and strip/corrupt random boons on Enemies would go a LONG way to making Ethereal Fields powerful.

This would serve multiple purposes.
I don’t even care for some particular playstyles, but this benefits mesmer in all of them.
WvW: A common tactic is to cluster up, spam stability, might, and zerg. Providing the zerg, a counter to all the stability and might in the form of feedbacks and null fields, and utilizing those, would improve things for the mesmer, and cooperation as a whole.

GvG, not even fully supported style of play: Helps Mesmer have a place for the above reason.

sPvP: It would make for a tempting target to blast by your ally thief, on point, fufilling both the role of ‘Boon Stripping’ and providing the ability to do the same to allies with blast finishers, by virtue of cooperating with the Mesmer to achieve a better result on one of his purposes, and at the same time, making Robert’s ‘response’ of ‘Mesmer supply the fields, others finish through them’ accurate, and useful.

PvE: There are many applications, mostly, I’m willing to bet money that enemies in HoT will have more boons to strip/corrupt, – and there is already plenty of practical application of such if you simply say the word dredge. (You know, the fight where you’re probably already dropping feedback for reflects, and null fields to boon strip)

That being said, I wouldn’t be opposed to having an on demand, reactionary Blast finisher, such as through a traited Mind Wrack, or simply on Greatsword 3. Mind Stab.

(edited by thetarot.8246)

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Posted by: Danel.8573

Danel.8573

Thanks for the long reply! I can only talk about this from a PvE/Dungeons perspective as I hardly ever play PvP and I use other classes for my rare WvW visits.
The blast idea just came to mind and wasn’t really thought through. I thought about more organized situations in a group with timed field placement and so on.
Anyway, I’m sure Chaos armor has it’s use and I’m always happy when that purple bubble appears around my character, but I’d really love to see some variety in my combos, instead of creating confounding bolts with my warden or my berserker or leaping into close range on Sword 3 for chaos armor. Same goes for confusion projectiles.

I know there are some classes, that also just have two types of fields (e.g. Guardian) but they seem to have a greater number and variety of finishers.

That being said, I wouldn’t be opposed to having an on demand, reactionary Blast finisher, such as through a traited Mind Wrack, or simply on Greatsword 3. Mind Stab.

This! Ever since I started playing, I wondered why they didn’t make Mind Stab a blast finisher. Having a Blast Finisher on a shatter could also be interesting though.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Because mesmers are absolutely useless outside of 1v1~ /sarcasm

Where are they really useful outside of 1v1? Or to say, small-scale sPvP?
In wvw, they are roamers (1v1) or Veilbot/portalbot.. not useful.
In PvE.. are they in meta for other uses than portal-skipping/Reflect?
All of them are utilities.. not even one thing of our weapon skills are needed (well, if you have traited focus, then you can reflect.. but that’s meh)!

It really amazes me how out of touch people on these forums actually are about the game. They think becuase a mesmer one shot them in hotjoin becuase they were stood perfectly still in a berserker amulet spamming unload that Mesmers are great at every game mode and in every situation, completly failing to see the massive differences between the 3 game modes or even between a person who is good at PvP and them.

Oh i am sry, last time i checked mesmers were really good in conquest and were picked for tourneys. Heck, last tourney i won we had a mesmer. Portal is really good for team nukes, decaps, caps, rezzes with vamp rune/ele mist form. Slow/haste on stomps/rezzes is huge as well. Constant ranged pressure and lockdown, especially running pain train together with thief. I love aoe invul from shatter from teammates, it saved me many times. Invul is also great for stomps. Boon/stab strip on shatter. Stealth for teammates. Moa for target spike, preventing stomps, lord kills, removing rampage/plague etc.

Naaaah guize, mesmers are totally useless outside of 1v1. And i totally run p/p and spent my time in hotjoins after playing this game for 2+ years and few thousands of ranked matches. /sarcasm

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

(edited by Cynz.9437)

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Posted by: NICENIKESHOE.7128

NICENIKESHOE.7128

Didn’t you get the memo? Moa no longer prevents stomps or resses. And I do love a 6/6/6/6/6 build, haven’t seen that for a while really.

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

Oh i am sry, last time i checked mesmers were really good in conquest and were picked for tourneys. Heck, last tourney i won we had a mesmer. Portal is really good for team nukes, decaps, caps, rezzes with vamp rune/ele mist form. Slow/haste on stomps/rezzes is huge as well. Constant ranged pressure and lockdown, especially running pain train together with thief. I love aoe invul from shatter from teammates, it saved me many times. Invul is also great for stomps. Boon/stab strip on shatter. Stealth for teammates. Moa for target spike, preventing stomps, lord kills, removing rampage/plague etc.

Naaaah guize, mesmers are totally useless outside of 1v1. And i totally run p/p and spent my time in hotjoins after playing this game for 2+ years and few thousands of ranked matches. /sarcasm

Just like your previous posts, you keep talking like all this stuff goes in one build. Like you can have aoe stealth and moa on the same character, or Slow/haste on stomps/rezzes while also being able to aoe invuln or moa. You do know that all three of those things occupy the Elite slot, right? Moa signet, Mass Invisibility and Time Warp are all elites, and have long cooldowns, to boot.

You did the same thing in your previous post. You declared all the things mesmers can have, and then said they were all in the same build, but….they aren’t. You can’t have them all. Mesmer builds have specific traits to make the build even function, and crossing the streams is often very difficult or even impossible. PU power shatter just doesn’t hit as hard as non-PU. Lockdown doesn’t shatter as hard.
Lockdown doesn’t stealth much.
Boonshare doesn’t hit hard.
Condi doesn’t burst.
No mesmer has good aoe access, because you just don’t get to shatter all that often, comparatively (in a field with Elementalists, I’m not sure what you were thinking about that one).

Team buffs require specialization. Lockdown requires specialization. One-shot shatters require specialization. Abundant stealth requires specialization. Many or most of these things exclude the possibility of the others.
You’re conflating every experience you’ve had with mesmers (positive and negative, it seems) into a super-mesmer that just doesn’t exist.

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Posted by: Bubi.5237

Bubi.5237

Where are they really useful outside of 1v1? Or to say, small-scale sPvP?
In wvw, they are roamers (1v1) or Veilbot/portalbot.. not useful.
In PvE.. are they in meta for other uses than portal-skipping/Reflect?
All of them are utilities.. not even one thing of our weapon skills are needed (well, if you have traited focus, then you can reflect.. but that’s meh)!

Oh i am sry, last time i checked mesmers were really good in conquest and were picked for tourneys. Heck, last tourney i won we had a mesmer. Portal is really good for team nukes, decaps, caps, rezzes with vamp rune/ele mist form. Slow/haste on stomps/rezzes is huge as well. Constant ranged pressure and lockdown, especially running pain train together with thief. I love aoe invul from shatter from teammates, it saved me many times. Invul is also great for stomps. Boon/stab strip on shatter. Stealth for teammates. Moa for target spike, preventing stomps, lord kills, removing rampage/plague etc.

Naaaah guize, mesmers are totally useless outside of 1v1. And i totally run p/p and spent my time in hotjoins after playing this game for 2+ years and few thousands of ranked matches. /sarcasm

It seems I was not clear enough, sorry, my english is bad:
“Where are they really useful outside of 1v1? Or to say, small-scale sPvP?” means for me:
“Where are mesmers really useful outside of sPvP/Small-scake roaming?”

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140

Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

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Posted by: Bubi.5237

Bubi.5237

Didn’t you get the memo? Moa no longer prevents stomps or resses. And I do love a 6/6/6/6/6 build, haven’t seen that for a while really.

Oldtimers know that it’s the good ol’ 30/30/30/30/30 build

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140

Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Didn’t you get the memo? Moa no longer prevents stomps or resses. And I do love a 6/6/6/6/6 build, haven’t seen that for a while really.

Oh look assumptions.
I didn’t say you can have it all in one build but you can have multiple of those things in one build. Some classes can only dream about it (see rangers). Point of my first post to show that mesmers already have many tools at their disposal, some classes don’t even have access to ANY of that NO MATTER what build they run. Asking for more tools for mesmers (which are strongest roamer and second best class in pvp) atm is just absurd, imo.

@AlphatheWhite.9351: oh look another assumption… please point me WHERE exactly did i say mes has it all in one build? Please, amuse me. Don’t put words in my mouth for the sake of argument.

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

(edited by Cynz.9437)

Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

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Posted by: AlphatheWhite.9351

AlphatheWhite.9351

@AlphatheWhite.9351: oh look another assumption… please point me WHERE exactly did i say mes has it all in one build? Please, amuse me. Don’t put words in my mouth for the sake of argument.

high dmg? check
aoe dmg? check
high ranged dmg? check
blocks, invuls, team/own buffs? check
teleports? check
stealth? check
pets? check
multiple CCs? check

What, you don’t have enough yet? Why not just ask for iWin button?

“Enough yet” implies that amongst that list of Good Things, you can have enough of them together in all the arenas that matter. Given that mesmers are nearly useless in large-scale WvW (the WvW that matters most), extremely underpowered in PvE (the vast majority of game content Anet produces, fyi), and noticeably underperforms in any sPvP fight above a 3v3 (dramatically limiting their usability in sPvP to the point that they had relatively little presence in the last round of top tourneys), it’s clear that this isn’t the case in a LOT of content.
Ergo, since your list does sound like a pretty potent list, you must be implying that they can have all that stuff at the same time all the time (or most of the time).
But that’s just a possible implication, too bad you didn’t go on to say that they get “too much in one build”….

facepalm me all you want, mesmers atm have already too much in one build…..

Oh, there it is.
Taken together with your previous post, it’s clear you’re packing more into mesmer builds than is actually there.
Your last post, in which you directly implied that mesmers can essentially have all three of their Elite skills in the same build, just sealed the last bit of doubt I had that I might be misunderstanding your position.

I think the only way you’re going to understand our position is to do the following:

1. Take a mesmer into WvW zerg for a few days, and report your findings.
2. Take a mesmer into a bunch of PvE efficiency runs, and report your findings.
3. Take a mesmer into sPvP, make sure to participate in as many 4v4 or 5v5 fights as possible, and report your findings.

Number 3 is the only one where I think you might be okay. You’ll hate your life after a while of trying #1 and #2.

Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

This is all just assumptions. You still didn’t provide ANY proof that i said mes have it all IN ONE build. You are still putting words in my mouth.

Also, your statment about mesmer state in pve/wvw/pvp is based on what facts? I see plenty of mes in tourney, some teams even ran double mes.

What’s wrong with mes in wvw? Last time i was in wvw most groups ran in big blob spamming one. I am sure mes can do it just as good as any other class.

What is wrong with pve? Oh noes, you are not absolute top in pve. Who cares? Just because you need 1 min longer for dungeon run doesn’t mean you will get kicked from groups all the time. I NEVER saw mesmer getting kicked from any “speed run” groups either, ever.
Why would you want to stay in prolonged team fights on mesmer? It is not your job. Your role is roamer. Also, if you want to stay in team fights don’t run squishy build. You don’t see guards crying “Booohoo we can’t roam as good as thieves” because they fill different role and are good at it. Why should mesmers fill every role? If you actually want to stay and win big scale fights, i am sry but you are playing wrong class.

Some are so spoiled really. Other classes struggle to stay in meta, fill any role and you want all of them if i understand you right?

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

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Posted by: Bubi.5237

Bubi.5237

What’s wrong with mes in wvw? Last time i was in wvw most groups ran in big blob spamming one. I am sure mes can do it just as good as any other class.

AoE AA? Where?? I’m searching for it for 3 years now, still couldn’t find that magical weapon which can give us 5 man AoE AA! Or any skill which can hit hard 5 man in 1.2k/900 range.. (Not counting the old confusion condi-bomb-“meta” with glamours, it was a trait + utils combo.)

What is wrong with pve? Oh noes, you are not absolute top in pve. Who cares? Just because you need 1 min longer for dungeon run doesn’t mean you will get kicked from groups all the time. I NEVER saw mesmer getting kicked from any “speed run” groups either, ever.

Nah, they are not kicking mesmer out as they can provide half-guardian.. Reflects with Quickness (worse uptime btw). There is only Portal which can make a team search for a mesmer, others maybe will not kick him out, but that’s only ’cos gw2 pve is braindead easy.. If raids will be “hard”, mesmer will have a harder time finding a spot.

Why would you want to stay in prolonged team fights on mesmer? It is not your job. Your role is roamer. Also, if you want to stay in team fights don’t run squishy build. You don’t see guards crying “Booohoo we can’t roam as good as thieves” because they fill different role and are good at it. Why should mesmers fill every role? If you actually want to stay and win big scale fights, i am sry but you are playing wrong class.

‘Cos mobility = roamer. Guards can play power/condi/support in teamfights, that’s 3 different role. And they can roam with moderate success with traveler runes, medi guards were quite good roamers in wvw during a certain period. Not the best, but good. Mesmer can ONLY roam, that’s all. No other role, if you’re not counting that 1-2 utility the zerg needs from you.. and then a 80 man zerg still only need 2-3 mesmers..
Mesmers have ZERO weapon skills to be effective in combats bigger than ~3v3. Even in gvg when they need mesmers, they are playing the usual shatter to counter enemy squishy eles/necros.. and then it’s again ~3v3 fight and not bigger..

Some are so spoiled really. Other classes struggle to stay in meta, fill any role and you want all of them if i understand you right?

Nope, we want to be effective in pve/large scale battles. We have ZERO damaging AoE weapon skill, and we don’t even bring unique utilities to boost damage. We don’t even have fire/water fields or blast finishers to fill some support-ish role, we have only skipping-tools aka Portal/Stealth.. and some reflects during the few encounters where they are useful.. Even rangers have more damage boost for the party and they have more AoE with Piercing Longbow.. that can hit harder compared to our “piercing” GS..

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140

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Posted by: Levetty.1279

Levetty.1279

Because mesmers are absolutely useless outside of 1v1~ /sarcasm

Where are they really useful outside of 1v1? Or to say, small-scale sPvP?
In wvw, they are roamers (1v1) or Veilbot/portalbot.. not useful.
In PvE.. are they in meta for other uses than portal-skipping/Reflect?
All of them are utilities.. not even one thing of our weapon skills are needed (well, if you have traited focus, then you can reflect.. but that’s meh)!

It really amazes me how out of touch people on these forums actually are about the game. They think becuase a mesmer one shot them in hotjoin becuase they were stood perfectly still in a berserker amulet spamming unload that Mesmers are great at every game mode and in every situation, completly failing to see the massive differences between the 3 game modes or even between a person who is good at PvP and them.

Oh i am sry, last time i checked mesmers were really good in conquest and were picked for tourneys. Heck, last tourney i won we had a mesmer. Portal is really good for team nukes, decaps, caps, rezzes with vamp rune/ele mist form. Slow/haste on stomps/rezzes is huge as well. Constant ranged pressure and lockdown, especially running pain train together with thief. I love aoe invul from shatter from teammates, it saved me many times. Invul is also great for stomps. Boon/stab strip on shatter. Stealth for teammates. Moa for target spike, preventing stomps, lord kills, removing rampage/plague etc.

Naaaah guize, mesmers are totally useless outside of 1v1. And i totally run p/p and spent my time in hotjoins after playing this game for 2+ years and few thousands of ranked matches. /sarcasm

ALL.3.GAME.MODES

If you want to sit around and whine that a Mesmer won’t stand there while you rapidfire it go to the PvP forums, you will find many like minded players. We are talking about everything the game offers here though.

Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

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Posted by: tobascodagama.2961

tobascodagama.2961

Can we keep this thread to finishers and fields so it doesn’t get locked? Thanks.

Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger

Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

high dmg? check
aoe dmg? check
high ranged dmg? check
blocks, invuls, team/own buffs? check
teleports? check
stealth? check
pets? check
multiple CCs? check

What, you don’t have enough yet? Why not just ask for iWin button?

AoE damage? Wait, the illusions are dead in PvE in an instant as well as in WvW.

High ranged damage? Melee damage is better, and fire ele staff or ranger longbow do more dps than mesmer greatsword.

Blocks/invulns/team buffs? If by team buffs you mean time warp, sure. Other classes bring blocks/invulns as well, namely ele and guardian and warrior.

Teleports? Not unique to mesmer.

Stealth? Thief and engineer do it better, especially for group stealth.

Pets? Worthless in this game, die immediately to aoe/cleave in PvE and WvW.

Multiple CC’s? Which ones other than temporal curtain? You don’t want knockbacks to remove people from your melee train, diversion won’t work as the illusions die immediately upon spawn and take time to walk to a target, and mantra of distraction doesn’t work all that well against bosses with a defiance bar or a zerg of stability farting guardians.

So please shut up and get the hell out of this forum.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

It seems I have to reiterate these points.

There is ele, engie, and thief. They self combo, its part of their class, and their blast finishers are helpful yes, but these classes don’t have everything on them.

The thief doesn’t use its blast finisher to the degree of the others.

Moreover, Mesmer replaces thief and engie in the wvw meta. Is just as common as all of them in the pvp meta. This seems to be about pve.

In pve, Mesmer is glanced over not because of its fields or finishers “Guardian and Mesmer fit the same role and sometimes Mesmer does it even better, but Guardian is easier and has better upfront burst.” Adding blasts won’t increase their inclusion. Fixing phantasms will.

So in pve, it is a moot addition. In wvw it won’t be used anyway because you can’t be in the melee train. In pvp, will just give the meta mesmer build more aoe blind and protection for themselves.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

Why do mesmer lack blast finishers?

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

Didn’t you get the memo? Moa no longer prevents stomps or resses. And I do love a 6/6/6/6/6 build, haven’t seen that for a while really.

Oldtimers know that it’s the good ol’ 30/30/30/30/30 build

Technically it’s a 123,123,123/123,123,123/123,123,123/123,123,123/123,123,123/123,123,123 build now.