Guild Wars 2

ANet’s overall design philosophy of the Scepter has not been clear. Early on it seemed to be the 1h’ed condition-based Mesmer’s weapon of choice with condition being applied from its auto-attack. Currently it is actually a much, much stronger power/crit based weapon than a condition-based one. This isn’t bad per se as Mesmers do not currently have a 1h’ed, ranged, power-based weapon, but the gap of a 1h’ed condition-based weapon is obviously a gap that could potentially be filled in the future.

What I am here to talk about however is the block skills (both Illusionary Counter and Illusionary Riposte), and why it is the real reason Scepter/offhand Sword don’t see more play. It is an ok design concept but they are implemented very, very poorly. The issues with the block skills are:

1) The counterattack has ~600 range, has a delay b/w block and counterattack, and needs LoS. This makes it very hard to land, and completely ineffective vs multi-hit attacks as you’ll have to eat many attacks between the delay if you want to land the counterattack.
2) There is a delay between skill activation and the block effect, making the skill very cumbersome to use as a defensive tool.
3) The secondary activation blind/daze (Counterspell/Counter Blade) also suffers from the slow projectile. These all cause the skill to be quite useless for any strategic play, such as blocking or blinding a critical attack. I assume it is a projectile due to it blinding/dazing in a line, but it would be a lot more useful as an instant single target skill.

Improvements that could be made from a combination of the suggestions below:
1) Remove the delay between skill activation and block effect to allow for responsive blocking
2) Make the skill block all attacks for its entire duration so it can actually be used as a true defensive skill
3) Make the counterattack a secondary skill activation (similar to the blind/daze effect) after blocking at least 1 attack so that the player has control of when and where to use the skill
4) Increase the counterattack range to 900
5) Reduce the damage of the counterattack as necessary due to the higher defensive potential of the skill, or have it apply some other type of effect
6) Make the secondary activated blind/daze instant, but single target

If ANet wants to keep the design flavor of a big counterattack and not a defense-oriented skill they could simply not use suggestion #2 and #4. They could even mix them up, making the Scepter block skill a defensive-version block skill using all the suggestions above and the Sword block an offensive-version and not use suggestion #2 and #4 as noted above.

TL:DR – The cumbersome delays and range limitations around the Mesmer’s 2 block skills make the skills ineffective and simply not fun to use and should be changed. Simple number tweaks are not the answer here.

Skyro.3108:

I assume it is a projectile due to it blinding/dazing in a line, but it would be a lot more useful as an instant single target skill.

I can confirm that both attacks launch a projectile that is visually identical to the sceptre projectile, sluggish speed and all.

The block is great against channelled attacks. Like kill shot, or if you see a backstab coming. Also since it summons a clone, if you dodge roll after the block (and have clone on dodge), you’ve suddenly got 2 clones available for a shatter. There’s plenty of versatility with it, if you’re creative enough.

Ross Biddle.2367:

The block is great against channelled attacks. Like kill shot, or if you see a backstab coming. Also since it summons a clone, if you dodge roll after the block (and have clone on dodge), you’ve suddenly got 2 clones available for a shatter. There’s plenty of versatility with it, if you’re creative enough.

Did you even read the OP? That has nothing to do with the issues outlined in the OP.

Also if you dodge immediately after the block you actually interrupt your own “cast” of the counterattack and thus would not have 2 clones. You have to block… wait… and then dodge. This is just another example of how the skill is very clunky to use.

I do agree the blocks feel cumbersome and unwieldy. However, I do use Scepter as my secondary MH weapon almost exclusively in WvW, clunky mechanics and all. I use confusion as my finisher / burst. I’m not sure if that says I’m just stupid or the weapon isn’t all that bad.

Chain ability should be Frontal Cone AoE > Single Target, same max range as the weapons respective #3 ability, Daze at 600 range frontal cone AoE (zergs get off me!!!), Blind at 900.

There is one change to the block that would make scepter alot more interesting, as its already a rather weak weapon it would not mkae it to op and if it did the duration might get altered.

I would like the block to be replaced with a spell like our never used skill “mimic”. It absorb a enemy attack that you then can throw back. But I would like it to work like the reflecting stones in 4rt fractal boss. You start the block, absorb a full attack eather if its channeled or single cast, then on demand reflect back.

This would make the weapon a tactical weap and add a gamestyle to mesmers to explore. Focus scepter would be a reflecting build that atm only shatters have good acces to.

Just my thoughts, might be stupid but in my mind this sounded like a good change.

/osicat

An autochain with variable range is just asking for trouble IMO, and a spammable Daze and Blind is rampantly OP.

Osicat has an interesting idea. I’d move the entire Mimic ability onto #2 Scepter, and replace Mimic with an ability copying the next ability a target uses.

I use scepter, I always use it with any bosses that tend to one shot my teammates. Scepter is very good for constantly creating meat shields. Clones will take everything from Frost’s freezing beam to Subject Alpha’s fatal purple crystal.

It’s not very viable but it’s outstanding for certain situations.

Carighan.6758:

Osicat has an interesting idea. I’d move the entire Mimic ability onto #2 Scepter, and replace Mimic with an ability copying the next ability a target uses.

Copying a healing skill would be problematic, I think.

I don’t really see how. Although, given that limitation I would argue give me three Arcane Mimicry abilities, to be equipped on a healing / utility / elite slot. Each has slightly different cast / duration / CD (elite obviously has a very long CD), and can only copy skills of that type.

Scepter is lame because the auto attack is lame and gimmicky and doesn’t work with the underlying mechanic of the class. Instead as someone else said it just becomes a gimmicky way to generate a ton of cheap clones from range who have no use except to soak damage and/or blow up.

I like scepter for pvp.

Ya the block isn’t that great, but it does help against melee opponents.

The OP has made some correct observations. I had brought up the blocking mechanism myself and am glad someone else is calling attention to it.

Scepter is a better power/crit weapon than condition. In fact scepter/sword give mesmers their highest single target damage output.

Blocking as it is now puts the burden on the blocker (spvp). The target will get in 1 or more attacks between block and counter-attack. This means the blocker is the one who needs to figure out if the incoming attack is more important than other. Some attacks happen so fast that I dont feel this is a reasonable burden to apply.

In my opinion the burden should be on the attacker.

I agree that the counter-attack should happen immediately upon a successful block.

I do not feel range is as large an issue at this time from my own personal experience.

No doubt about, if the clone summoning and damage from being hit with block up was instant it would be better. However I believe there are technical reasons why it has a cast time.

The having block block everything for a set duration has been suggested a lot. It’s clear it is never going to happen.

However an easy and not OP solution to this is the cast time for when block is activated via an attack you get distortion. It’s about half a second cast time and it won’t leave us useless during that cast time like it is now.

Sadly we get no feedback to anything on the proffesion forums unless we send Anet a cake.

Actually, even with a condition build setup, scepter auto-attack (1) outperforms staff auto-attack (2) by a huge margin. Mesmer is one of the few classes, though, where auto-attack DPS is a relatively small fraction of our total DPS. Most of our DPS comes from phantasms and shatters.

Okuza.5210:

Actually, even with a condition build setup, scepter auto-attack (1) outperforms staff auto-attack (2) by a huge margin. Mesmer is one of the few classes, though, where auto-attack DPS is a relatively small fraction of our total DPS. Most of our DPS comes from phantasms and shatters.

How did you reach that conclusion? Just from memory a full condition build can achieve an average damage of 600 per WoC, which has a cast time of 0.75s: about 800 DPS. Ether Bolt/Blast has a damage of about 200 with a cast time of 0.5s, and Ether Clone is about 400 with a cast time of 1s: about 400 DPS. This doesn’t take crits into account, but even with crits Ether Bolt isn’t going to double its DPS; and we haven’t taken into account WoC’s boons or Illusionary Elasticity doubling its single target DPS.

Okuza.5210:

Actually, even with a condition build setup, scepter auto-attack (1) outperforms staff auto-attack (2) by a huge margin. Mesmer is one of the few classes, though, where auto-attack DPS is a relatively small fraction of our total DPS. Most of our DPS comes from phantasms and shatters.

Ok lets see.

An auto attack that does no condition damage does more damage then staff auto attack in full +condition damage?

Staff does more damage then scepter in full power thanks. The only benefit of scepter is you get a lackluster block that kittens your survival when activated and a death beam which is only good if something is dumb enough to attack. Mobs attack slowly so it doesn’t matter. The only offhand that makes up for its kittenyness is pistol as everything else is kitten or broken.

zexion.5842:

Staff does more damage then scepter in full power thanks. The only benefit of scepter is you get a lackluster block that kittens your survival when activated and a death beam which is only good if something is dumb enough to attack. Mobs attack slowly so it doesn’t matter. The only offhand that makes up for its kittenyness is pistol as everything else is kitten or broken.

In full Power, WoC will deal approximately 450 damage per WoC (200 direct, 250 average condition) for a DPS of approximately 600. Ether Bolt/Blast will deal about 400 damage for a DPS of about 800. So no, In full Power Ether Bolt is stronger than WoC; although if you take into account all factors (such as Clones dealing damage) the Staff is probably still the superior weapon DPS-wise in a full Power build.

Go to the mists golems and test it. Staff auto-attack is at best 50% lower DPS than scepter. Best scepter auto-attack dps is 2x worst staff dps (ie. melee range for scepter, over 600m for staff without nearby bounce targets). Scepter clone production rate is also potentially the highest of all our weapons; actual rate depends on your range to target.

Basically, scepter/1 DPS is roughly equivalent to greatsword/1 DPS with an inverse distance relationship. Melee scepter is the same as max range GS. Max range scepter is a a fair bit better than melee range GS (about the same as 300m GS).

Did you use the additional bounce talent in your dps tests? That adds a tremendous amount of dps to staff auto attack…

“….. The only benefit of scepter is you get a lackluster block that kittens your survival when activated and a death beam which is only good if something is dumb enough to attack…. "

the block with scepter crits for over 3k with beserker amulet
the “death beam” will total for 3K to 6K, not including confusion damage.

so aside from my, and the OP’s criticism of the blocking mechanism, what’s the problem?

I use Scepter all the time.
The block seems fine to me, works just right. Maybe it’s some lag issue others are having?

While fighting the Ranger boss guy in AC who starts off on a pedestal, I was using staff and clones from the side, but the shots followed terrain, and so went down into the chasm and were worthless. Point being that scepter is our true range weapon. Pistol only has the phantasm and one-off stun thing.

For consistant range damage, we only have the scepter. Having said that, the scepter has very Piss Poor damage, so that should be fixed.

I know and understand how the scepter is good at generating clones and why that’s good, but we already have utility skills that do the same without doing damage.

A weapon should do considerable damage.

Edit to say the beam damage is good. I’m talking about the lobs.
I was throwing lobs at a mob that showed NO health in his bar and he still wouldn’t die until I shattered. This was a trash PvE mob. That’s pretty useless.

Edit: again because I just remembered the GS is ranged too, lol?

Okuza.5210:

Go to the mists golems and test it. Staff auto-attack is at best 50% lower DPS than scepter. Best scepter auto-attack dps is 2x worst staff dps (ie. melee range for scepter, over 600m for staff without nearby bounce targets). Scepter clone production rate is also potentially the highest of all our weapons; actual rate depends on your range to target.

Basically, scepter/1 DPS is roughly equivalent to greatsword/1 DPS with an inverse distance relationship. Melee scepter is the same as max range GS. Max range scepter is a a fair bit better than melee range GS (about the same as 300m GS).

Did you take condition damage into account? According to my calculations Staff DPS (taking into account average condition damage) is much higher than Scepter DPS while in a condition build, and that’s without taking into account boons applied by WoC or powerful traits like Illusionary Elasticity, or the fact that Staff Clones deal significant damage on their own (and also apply boons).

Scepter Clone generation rate is really not much of an advantage when any build serious about using Clones will take Deceptive Evasion, which more or less caps out your Clone generation rate no matter what weapon you use. Plus Staff has quite decent Clone generation itself.