Guild Wars 2

i dont mean with cuz of for veil portal..
example: in fair death matches, with 12 15 20 25 vs same with same conditions for win maybe for rank? Why would u take mesmer rather than other classes in your setup?

Mesmers would choseed (1 or 2) for veil, portal in GvG matches..

To be honest, Mesmers have a lot of support, we just don’t have a lot of aoe. It takes time to develop a Mesmer build specificially for zerging/gvg. I would recommend starting with 30 in illusions for a gvg build, shatter is good for 15-20 man gvgs and honestly anything. You can also go phantasm for a backline killer, which we can do quite well.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

To be honest, Mesmers have a lot of support, we just don’t have a lot of aoe. It takes time to develop a Mesmer build specificially for zerging/gvg. I would recommend starting with 30 in illusions for a gvg build, shatter is good for 15-20 man gvgs and honestly anything. You can also go phantasm for a backline killer, which we can do quite well.

Have ever made gvg do they works? or better just roll for a another classes.. ?

Of course it depends on the entire guild composition. All classes have a place in combat (yes, even urk Rangers blargh and Thieves) To take an extreme example, what would you rather have:

20 Guardians

or

19 Guardians and 1 Mesmer with timewarp, feedback bubble and null field/blinding glamour etc.

I think the answer is fairly obvious which group has the biggest combat potential. Sure that extra guardian could have held a healing book or something to balance overall health, but that timewarp could mean you get to stomp 5 people faster than they could heal – ie you already won the fight. The point isnt that you can replace the Mesmer with any class – of course you can – its that these skills are desirable. A group need to be flexible.

Dawdler.8521:

Of course it depends on the entire guild composition. All classes have a place in combat (yes, even urk Rangers blargh and Thieves) To take an extreme example, what would you rather have:

20 Guardians

or

19 Guardians and 1 Mesmer with timewarp, feedback bubble and null field/blinding glamour etc.

I think the answer is fairly obvious which group has the biggest combat potential. Sure that extra guardian could have held a healing book or something to balance overall health, but that timewarp could mean you get to stomp 5 people faster than they could heal – ie you already won the fight. The point isnt that you can replace the Mesmer with any class – of course you can – its that these skills are desirable. A group need to be flexible.

Of course i am not discussion with there should ve no mesmer in groups whereas not other class have tw, portal, veil.. so traditionaly as this meta all groups have minimum 1 to 2 mesmers.. so why would u take any mesmer 3rd 4th… in groups instead of those unique skills? than other classes?

Melee train is totally dominant, so you take mesmer to support melee train – veil essential, timewarp if placed well is useful and to lesser extent nullfield for additional stripping and even feedback (if trait blind on glamour to try to disrupt enemy melee burst).

1 mesmer is enough, although some take 2 (in 20 vs 20) for extra veil to try and gain advantage in intial duking.

No point at all in 3rd/4th mesmer, don’t need any more veils and other classes i.e. necro, ele bring more to large heavy melee group fight.

You dont really need more Mesmers than that, no… But you must admit, it would pure awesome to watch a 20 Mesmer vs 20 Guardian fight. I am actually very curious who would win, assuming equal skill. Sure the Guardians got heavy melee, condition removal, healing and CC potential, but on the other hand Mesmers could just blink away and lay down some iBerserker smackdown without even turning around. Perma stealth fields, complete buff and ranged combat denial, not to mention timewarps everywhere. Lets not even begin to discuss clone generation and cripples/voulnerabilities…

so in conculusion.. we dont take mesmers in our team oriented competitive groups instead of 1 or 2 for their veils, portals, and tw.. so it means that mesmers are not effective as other classes in team groups who has 15 to 25players to fight the same numbers in deathmatch style..

@Dawdler it would be fantastic.. full mesmers vs guardians.. but it wont prove that mesmer will be useful more than 2 :P it would be easy to counter with balanced groups more spec to anti mesmer.. exp.. with their izerker is easy to counter with just random swing #1 attack.. on mes vs gua how u make theory craft scenario sould be done as for guardians..

I know that, but it would still be fun :p

Simple,

Best
Harassment
Class
Ever

One class to take down all their backline.

Dawdler.8521:

You dont really need more Mesmers than that, no… But you must admit, it would pure awesome to watch a 20 Mesmer vs 20 Guardian fight. I am actually very curious who would win, assuming equal skill. Sure the Guardians got heavy melee, condition removal, healing and CC potential, but on the other hand Mesmers could just blink away and lay down some iBerserker smackdown without even turning around. Perma stealth fields, complete buff and ranged combat denial, not to mention timewarps everywhere. Lets not even begin to discuss clone generation and cripples/voulnerabilities…

mass clone death condi builds would ruin guardians. mesmers lack stability, but staff 2 and blink should be enough to escape ring/wall spam

wads.5730:

Dawdler.8521:

You dont really need more Mesmers than that, no… But you must admit, it would pure awesome to watch a 20 Mesmer vs 20 Guardian fight. I am actually very curious who would win, assuming equal skill. Sure the Guardians got heavy melee, condition removal, healing and CC potential, but on the other hand Mesmers could just blink away and lay down some iBerserker smackdown without even turning around. Perma stealth fields, complete buff and ranged combat denial, not to mention timewarps everywhere. Lets not even begin to discuss clone generation and cripples/voulnerabilities…

mass clone death condi builds would ruin guardians. mesmers lack stability, but staff 2 and blink should be enough to escape ring/wall spam

Sorry, but…no…guardians got a ton of condition removal. Shatter builds would die instantly from retaliation when even trying to bring on 1 shatter combo (yes, i got myself killed from 18k-0 just yesterday in 1 shatter combo from retal alone) and illusions are useless in a fight that big.

Mesmer is a solo/smallscale class by design, in bigger fights we get totally outclassed by about everything else (well…maybe, except rangers…thiefs have daggerstorm and near infinite blast finishers speaking for them).

Iavra.8510:

wads.5730:

Dawdler.8521:

You dont really need more Mesmers than that, no… But you must admit, it would pure awesome to watch a 20 Mesmer vs 20 Guardian fight. I am actually very curious who would win, assuming equal skill. Sure the Guardians got heavy melee, condition removal, healing and CC potential, but on the other hand Mesmers could just blink away and lay down some iBerserker smackdown without even turning around. Perma stealth fields, complete buff and ranged combat denial, not to mention timewarps everywhere. Lets not even begin to discuss clone generation and cripples/voulnerabilities…

mass clone death condi builds would ruin guardians. mesmers lack stability, but staff 2 and blink should be enough to escape ring/wall spam

Sorry, but…no…guardians got a ton of condition removal. Shatter builds would die instantly from retaliation when even trying to bring on 1 shatter combo (yes, i got myself killed from 18k-0 just yesterday in 1 shatter combo from retal alone) and illusions are useless in a fight that big.

Mesmer is a solo/smallscale class by design, in bigger fights we get totally outclassed by about everything else (well…maybe, except rangers…thiefs have daggerstorm and near infinite blast finishers speaking for them).

Still hard to say since all guards will be running around with 0 boons due the boon removal on shatter and null field. Also I would think mesmer has a really big advantage due the fact that they can stealth ( if well coordinated every push would be stealthed) and good immunity during the fight.

Only thing that gives guards an advantage is the extreme healing they will get most likely

Yeah, the most utility I’ve found for group/zerg play is the old-school 20/20/0/0/30, but with rampagers gear (and, yes, runes of perlexity), mostly so confusion packs some punch. Works ok with focus and greatsword and imbued diversion for for mass interrupts, and then boon strip on shatter as well.

You do need to stay on the edges as you are very very glassy, and yes, retaliation can do some serious harm as well.

In short, I think there is a place for mesmers in large group fights, even if our role isn’t the most important.

Yeah but take away veil as the OP suggests, and none of these abilities are reason to take a mesmer into organised gvg. They’re what you use after veil and inbetween timewarp to try and add some use, but still well short of what other classes can bring.

I’ve yet to see a single class vs single class GvG, would be entertaining though

Ross Biddle.2367:

Simple,

Best
Harassment
Class
Ever

One class to take down all their backline.

u mean BHCE ? :P i didnt get any 1 point what u mean..

@lavra yes thats true.. example of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecRyBzCbW0
not just retal pwn u, from chaos armors and others will enough to pwn u.. with just BL and noncloned ipersone F1 shatter.. it let me from 13.750HP to 4.637 + 13 stack confusion..

• with BL and NoClone, ipersone shatterMW gave : ~9113 Damage + 13 stacks of confusion..
• Risk / reward sux.. if i should use my shatters to single, 2 foes i would better roll for thief.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoiI_32ywY this just a roll a dice reward guardian pulled me with binding Blade while i am in stance of BLURRED FRENZY? everyday learning some thing.. :P

• guess that they ve 250damage from retal with their retal
  - full shatter combo exp what i use.. readied clones Sword swap F1 [4hits aeo] F3 [1hit],
  Mirror Images F2[3hits] BL [8x] and Fire sigil [1hit] total: 17Hits x 250Retal x AoE(example use 5mans) = 21250 Direct damage (4250 each) enaogh to die u can this solution confuison stacks, or conditions that blinds, frozen armors etc etc… :P

@Doiid, i understand what u mean but imo in practical it wont work cuz of nerfed BL, before nerfed i know as well how it was fun and effective to play example as your Ultimate Mesmer movie, Guards will not be dummy or npc :P nullfields ok.. anyway how there can have 20 nullfields on battle with 40sec cd there can be have 20guardians spamable boons, (mean pleanty boons) i s a big topic that we cant stop discussions..

@Bunda but the question is not that have mesmers place in large scale group fights? i know this mechanic is differ from traditional mmos where self sufficient is more needed however i mean gvg where there is a rank and primarly goal is to win.. so comparision/calculations of effectiveness overall.. there u can roll mesmer to another class.. where mesmers have not specific role rather than slot bot.. other classes have better/ more effective.. who play gvg can understand better.. where we see the prove that this meta doesnt have more than 2 mesmers in gvg matches..

• why i open this topic.. where as we should accept that gw2 has some unoffical/sanbox competitive/challenging/team oriented guild vs guild.. in some fair atmosphere with unoffical ranks.. and where mesmers cant take role, in that groups with out veils portals.. where it is exactly what anet said/say.. or is easy to see Mesmer needs some changes/orientations for 15 to 25 scaled groups for can fight fairly with same amount in challenging..

Iavra.8510:

wads.5730:

Dawdler.8521:

You dont really need more Mesmers than that, no… But you must admit, it would pure awesome to watch a 20 Mesmer vs 20 Guardian fight. I am actually very curious who would win, assuming equal skill. Sure the Guardians got heavy melee, condition removal, healing and CC potential, but on the other hand Mesmers could just blink away and lay down some iBerserker smackdown without even turning around. Perma stealth fields, complete buff and ranged combat denial, not to mention timewarps everywhere. Lets not even begin to discuss clone generation and cripples/voulnerabilities…

mass clone death condi builds would ruin guardians. mesmers lack stability, but staff 2 and blink should be enough to escape ring/wall spam

Sorry, but…no…guardians got a ton of condition removal. Shatter builds would die instantly from retaliation when even trying to bring on 1 shatter combo (yes, i got myself killed from 18k-0 just yesterday in 1 shatter combo from retal alone) and illusions are useless in a fight that big.

.

either you didnt read what i said, or you dont know mesmers well. i never once said anything about shatter builds. plus its not shatter builds that suffer from heavy retal damage, its blurred frenzy, since it hits 8 times, and especially if you hit more than 1 person 8 times.

the only purpose illusions would serve in a clone death build is to get aoed and die. im almost positive that you can generate more clones faster than guardians can clear the condis. you also dont take any retal damage.

I am positive you can create more clones than guardians can clear. in WvW last night I had a 2v1 vs 2 guardians. Most definitely created more clone fodder then they were clearing. Just wanted to point that out <3

plus its not shatter builds that suffer from heavy retal damage, its blurred frenzy, since it hits 8 times

A full shatter hits 4 times, that’s still something ^^ I’m playing my mesmer for about half a year now and i know for a fact that my build (gs + sword/torch shatter) gets hardcountered by retal.

/edit: While mesmers might be able to produce (and let die) enough clones to overwhelm the condi remove of the guardians, the sheer amount of heals flying around would most likely be enough to ignore every condition besides confusion, which (at least for me) always gets cleansed first.

Iavra.8510:

plus its not shatter builds that suffer from heavy retal damage, its blurred frenzy, since it hits 8 times

A full shatter hits 4 times, that’s still something ^^ I’m playing my mesmer for about half a year now and i know for a fact that my build (gs + sword/torch shatter) gets hardcountered by retal.

/edit: While mesmers might be able to produce (and let die) enough clones to overwhelm the condi remove of the guardians, the sheer amount of heals flying around would most likely be enough to ignore every condition besides confusion, which (at least for me) always gets cleansed first.

go run a condi staff scepter/pistol or torch shatter mesmer and tell me you’re hard countered by retal.

its not shatters, its blurred frenzy on multiple targets that you get destroyed by.

I’ve run these builds a long time ago. Sadly, they are quite useless against anyone who doesn’t want to stay and fight that’s why i switched to GS.

— its not shatters, its blurred frenzy on multiple targets that you get destroyed by.
yes with its low co-efficent spike..

• but is not BF that get u destroyed by.. its developers unlogical/not enough fair patches that cant balance skills for/with in various environments/styles.. and by time as these comptetive groups for balanced teams/fair fights it gets destroy mesmers.. where it shouldnt be have done with anet saying.. dont experiance with rangers as well but it seems they too or enginer.. anyway for as being slot bot mesmer win :P
• sux risk/reward factor
• sux role getting in team oriented groups yessss……. again again except with veil, portal and tw(which is i dont see tw more OverPowered than example of war elite banner)
• u can say so dont use BF shatetters on multiple targets.. SO Why should i choose mesmer.. rather than other classes (not experienced with rangers and engineers[just ignore them :P])
  -Have better crowd control(support)? NO…
  -have Better DPS? NO.. maybe had better burst before patch while had still risk/reward factor…
  -have Better Support? NO..
  -have Better Tank? NO..
  -have Unique Skill? YES.. Portal and veil.. [elites all classes are close unique]
  so mesmers are not overall effective to balanced fair group fights..

Mesmers are taken because guilds want us to not be left out and feel bad for us

Because 4kx4 AoE shatters + cleaving sword invuln is good damage.

K U T M.4539:

Because 4kx4 AoE shatters + cleaving sword invuln is good damage.

U mean 4clones shatter.. means ~3.2 coefficent + 2.37 co-efficientwith BF(sword #2)
total 5.57 Co-efficient
so example assume that if your target has 2900 armor
and u ve 2100Power 40cchance 70cdamage u ll do

5686 Direct damage.. with no contions effected..
with MW trait 6340 Direct damage
if target has Protection damage it ll be 4766(with MW trait)

if target has retal boon.. and if he has 2000 Power
u wll get 4182 x (how many ppl u hit exp make it +4 )
so u get 20.910 Retal Damage …………. do u understand now?

basicly what u can sacrife/risk?

• 4182 to………. 20.910 Health lost from u to give 4766 DirectDamage(where enemy has like full retal and protections on them)
• 0.30(1/2) sec before u start BF where u can get CC and int your combo.. let u disconnect from combat be useless..
• u can be pulled by Guardians BindingBlade while in evading stance :S
• your clones can reach to target? where has pleanty fields..
• after combo requries blink Distortations where dodge has still more risk to can retreat from in side the train..
• other than Retal… Chaos armors, Frost armors, Shocking armor, fire shields…
• Doesnt reaching swap cuz of land shapes Sword #3
• u can sacrifece F4 distortation for anti retal fair?
• u ll lack mobility to can lost tracking guilds regroups where combo need time with its prepation..
• ok dont be dumb and do not use shatter burrst to multiple so why choose mesmer i would rather go for thief..

OR do i miss that is there any role that Mesmer can do better/more effective from other classes in gvg?
Mesmers are Dead except their veil portal…

wads.5730:

plus its not shatter builds that suffer from heavy retal damage, its blurred frenzy, since it hits 8 times, and especially if you hit more than 1 person 8 times.

Blurred frenzy hits 4 times bro.

Scizzor.8137:

wads.5730:

plus its not shatter builds that suffer from heavy retal damage, its blurred frenzy, since it hits 8 times, and especially if you hit more than 1 person 8 times.

Blurred frenzy hits 4 times bro.

No.. it seems as visually looks 4 times hit..
mechanicly it uses 8 times 0.2970 skill co-efficients..

You don’t see many mesmers (or rangers, engineers, thieves) in GvG teams because the current meta favors melee trains and ground targeted aoe damage (necros, eles) and requires a lot of condition removal

Menaka.5092:

You don’t see many mesmers (or rangers, engineers, thieves) in GvG teams because the current meta favors melee trains and ground targeted aoe damage (necros, eles) and requires a lot of condition removal

i would not put thiefs in the list.. they get one the best efficient role.. they are valuable as war guard or nec ele,
aoe dmgs blasts, weakness, mobile, destroyer, chaser taking down low healths, high dps, blinds… and they are good as these rather than others..
melee train is just not the current meta, it hasnt changed.. however u can see succesful not melee train oriented guilds.. VII exp ? as with more experiance games can see for anti melee trains.. however if there ll be another meta mesmer ll still cant be primary class.. so its not about meta.. its cuz of game mechanic.. unsuccesfull balances and there is not ve offical gvg.. suxs small fight area.. example..