Lady Novae – 80 Human Ele – Blackgate
(edited by Alasteir.7031)
WvW Mesmer Build Critique
This is pretty much the glamour build of yore. It’s not really run anymore for a pretty good reason: it does close to nothing.
The confusion doesn’t hurt much (yes, even with your 1500 condition damage, which, btw, is really low. Back when I ran glamour builds, I’d have 2100 before might.). It just gets cleansed off immediately or just ignored. Once you’ve put down your glamours and chaos storm, you’re basically left with almost nothing. You can try to sorta strafe a group with confusing images, but that’s of limited effectiveness. Clone explosions do a little bit, but they often won’t hit many people unless you’re right in the middle of things (dangerous place to be with no stunbreaks or stability).
Ultimately, using this build will get you some tags, but that’s about it. You’re not going to be actually contributing much to your group in a meaningful way.
This is pretty much the glamour build of yore. It’s not really run anymore for a pretty good reason: it does close to nothing.
The confusion doesn’t hurt much (yes, even with your 1500 condition damage, which, btw, is really low. Back when I ran glamour builds, I’d have 2100 before might.). It just gets cleansed off immediately or just ignored. Once you’ve put down your glamours and chaos storm, you’re basically left with almost nothing. You can try to sorta strafe a group with confusing images, but that’s of limited effectiveness. Clone explosions do a little bit, but they often won’t hit many people unless you’re right in the middle of things (dangerous place to be with no stunbreaks or stability).
Ultimately, using this build will get you some tags, but that’s about it. You’re not going to be actually contributing much to your group in a meaningful way.
Several things, what setup did you use to reach 2100 condition damage without might? I’m getting everything I possibly can through the build editor, and reaching 1800 is already rough. The only thing missing is condition damage modifiers based on toughness. With those modifiers it reaches close to 1900. So I’d like to know how you did that, so I can replicate it.
Secondly, besides going into your vague generalities, confusion by itself wouldn’t be enough of course. Wouldn’t the combination of torment, the bleeds from the clones, and reflect damage add up to rival, or surpass a shatter, or phantasm build in this same setting? Especially on a fast attacking target like a Longbow Ranger? 1800 condition damage with just 5 stacks of Confusion could be quite threatening to a longbow ranger casting Rapid Fire.
Third, depending on the scenario, from experience, organized zergs tend to ignore mesmer clones in favor of higher priority targets. The exception of course being clones being in the proximity of aoe that is meant for an actual player.
Lastly, in zerg scenarios, I often find that permanent condi cleanse isn’t an actual thing, and that regularly there are periods of time where it does damage, especially in groups that scatter, like in the midst of an actual clash. Otherwise, the glamour build of yore wouldn’t have been nerfed, as the confusion that it originally applied would’ve been just easily cleansed no? It also contradicts the popularity of perplexity runes.
Lady Novae – 80 Human Ele – Blackgate
(edited by Alasteir.7031)
Several things, what setup did you use to reach 2100 condition damage without might? I’m getting everything I possibly can through the build editor, and reaching 1800 is already rough. The only thing missing is condition damage modifiers based on toughness. With those modifiers it reaches close to 1900. So I’d like to know how you did that, so I can replicate it.
2160 no might. Stacking sigils matter.
Secondly, besides going into your vague generalities, confusion by itself wouldn’t be enough of course. Wouldn’t the combination of torment, the bleeds from the clones, and reflect damage add up to rival, or surpass a shatter, or phantasm build in this same setting?
You have no access to good aoe torment. Tormenting sigil is just a tiny bit here and there, it’s not really significant. Bleeds, same problem. 33% of the time a clone will pop for a couple bleeds that will tick for a couple seconds and do minimal damage. Reflect damage is potentially non-trivial, but you can’t rely on it. Zerg metas rely on gtAoE and cleave damage, not ranged. Now and then you’ll get great stuff from feedback, but it’s highly inconsistent.
Third, depending on the scenario, from experience, organized zergs tend to ignore mesmer clones in favor of higher priority targets. The exception of course being clones being in the proximity of aoe that is meant for an actual player.
Your clones aren’t gonna survive for more than a quarter of a second. If they do survive for more than a quarter of a second, it means they’re not near the enemy group, and so when they pop the clone death traits won’t hit anyone.
Lastly, in zerg scenarios, I often find that permanent condi cleanse isn’t an actual thing, and that regularly there are periods of time where it does damage, especially in groups that scatter, like in the midst of an actual clash. Otherwise, the glamour build of yore wouldn’t have been nerfed, as the confusion that it originally applied would’ve been just easily cleansed no? It also contradicts the popularity of perplexity runes.
Perplexity runes are not popular in zerg builds, so that’s besides the point.
The meta back then didn’t run with a lot of condition removal. Really the only condition threat for the most part was the glamour mesmer. Now, zergs constantly do aoe condition removal from shouts, ele fields, and other assorted utilities. You’re right that it’s not always going to remove your confusion immediately, but it will a good amount of the time.
Another thing to keep in mind is that glamour confusions only work if they actually walk through your glamours. This means that situations where they’re spread out or not moving much leave you more or less unable to do damage. Glamour builds are most effective on a dense group moving through a choke or some other movement-restricting area, because that forces them all to walk through your glamours. This, unfortunately, is also the period of time that aoe condition is both most potent and most often used. It’s not a good combination for your damage.
Ultimately, yeah…you’ll tag people. You’ll do a bit of damage if you use the glamours right. You’re just not going to do very much. Remember that on top of this all, your damage is 50% that of an old glamour build, before taking into account any of the meta changes like condition removal. Imagine if suddenly shatter builds were just nerfed to 50% of what they used to do. Do you think they’d be useful or in any way decent? Glamour builds are no different.
2160 no might. Stacking sigils matter.
You have no access to good aoe torment. Tormenting sigil is just a tiny bit here and there, it’s not really significant. Bleeds, same problem. 33% of the time a clone will pop for a couple bleeds that will tick for a couple seconds and do minimal damage. Reflect damage is potentially non-trivial, but you can’t rely on it. Zerg metas rely on gtAoE and cleave damage, not ranged. Now and then you’ll get great stuff from feedback, but it’s highly inconsistent.
Fair enough.
Your clones aren’t gonna survive for more than a quarter of a second. If they do survive for more than a quarter of a second, it means they’re not near the enemy group, and so when they pop the clone death traits won’t hit anyone.
This point I struggle to take in, as in my experience, generally mesmer clones in heavy zerg clashes tend to be up a lot of time. Specifically clones, not phantasms; I always attributed it to the fact that clone behavior was obvious, and it was pointless to therefore attack them, since clones are useless. Especially the commonly spawned clones from gs mesmers. So this, ehh. Anecdotes, versus personal experience, which isn’t really much better, but theoretically I’ll accept the rebuke.
Perplexity runes are not popular in zerg builds, so that’s besides the point.
The meta back then didn’t run with a lot of condition removal. Really the only condition threat for the most part was the glamour mesmer. Now, zergs constantly do aoe condition removal from shouts, ele fields, and other assorted utilities. You’re right that it’s not always going to remove your confusion immediately, but it will a good amount of the time.
I actually wasn’t aware of this. I do know that perplexity runes were popular, unfortunately a lot of the popularity that I found didn’t talk in specifics. Not that most people even talk in specifics, but hey! Back then, I didn’t run in large organized zergs running meta builds, so there was enough build variety, both useful and useless that I honestly wasn’t aware that the existing meta lacked condition removal.
Another thing to keep in mind is that glamour confusions only work if they actually walk through your glamours. This means that situations where they’re spread out or not moving much leave you more or less unable to do damage. Glamour builds are most effective on a dense group moving through a choke or some other movement-restricting area, because that forces them all to walk through your glamours. This, unfortunately, is also the period of time that aoe condition is both most potent and most often used. It’s not a good combination for your damage.
I’ll contest part of this in the differing situations in which stacking occurs. A zerg running through the pseudo-gate to one of the camps in the borderlands, is generally already finished with stacking. At least with the zergs I’ve observed, and depending on their reactions, either rush through using the usual fields such as the Guardian’s Symbol of Swiftness. At that point they’ll just run through the glamours for MASSIVE DAMAGE! No, I kid. I will admit that the glamour trait was to simply get more use out of the required utilities of the Mesmers, if they exist in the zerg. Nullfield never hurts, portals are their main staple. I figured, hey! Why not. Wasn’t exactly the basis of the build, but rather creating a more reliable way of dealing damage, since phantasms/shatters are arguably worse.
Ultimately, yeah…you’ll tag people. You’ll do a bit of damage if you use the glamours right. You’re just not going to do very much. Remember that on top of this all, your damage is 50% that of an old glamour build, before taking into account any of the meta changes like condition removal. Imagine if suddenly shatter builds were just nerfed to 50% of what they used to do. Do you think they’d be useful or in any way decent? Glamour builds are no different.
In my defense, 1800 condition damage, with just 5 stacks of Confusion on someone auto-attacking, would do roughly 1000 damage per hit, per action, and that’s nothing to sneeze at, but on a serious note, as stated in an earlier paragraph, this isn’t a glamour build, as it is a general condition build, simply attempting to make the most of the “required” utilities that Mesmers bring in a zerg, while trying to get more damage out on top of regular portal/veil botting, than what a phantasm/shatter build would do. I wasn’t exactly expecting it to be the meta. Certainly not with HoT on the horizon.
Lady Novae – 80 Human Ele – Blackgate
The only way to improve this build is to move to a power damage one. Sorry, but AoE condi builds don’t have a place in zergs cause the massive AoE condi cleanse.
And it will get worse with the implementation of specializations. Builds will have much more condi cleansing and the core traits of your build (Confusing Enchantments and clone death traits) are going to dissapear.
Here is my footage testing a similar build. The numbers are pretty much the maximum cap you can get (I calculate 2600 condi damage and +93% confusion duration). If you watch the rest of the video you can see me doing 4-6k with power shatter…
https://youtu.be/it_nzabmk_Y?t=427
Ansau – Sylvari Mesmer – Exiled Warriors [wE] – Gandara
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
The only way to improve this build is to move to a power damage one. Sorry, but AoE condi builds don’t have a place in zergs cause the massive AoE condi cleanse.
And it will get worse with the implementation of specializations. Builds will have much more condi cleansing and the core traits of your build (Confusing Enchantments and clone death traits) are going to dissapear.
Here is my footage testing a similar build. The numbers are pretty much the maximum cap you can get (I calculate 2600 condi damage and +93% confusion duration). If you watch the rest of the video you can see me doing 4-6k with power shatter…
https://youtu.be/it_nzabmk_Y?t=427
The basis of my build was largely on the hypothetical assumption that clones or illusions utilized in Shatter builds would be killed before they reach their target. Fay’s argument suggests this, because the clones need to run within range of the zerg without dying in order for the shatter to work, and this is the main weakness of the on death condition build. The clones dying before they reached their target. However, I find it interesting to note all the times Confusion damage is ticking in your video, despite supposed constant condition cleanse.
Of course, this still doesn’t change the flaws in the build that I was considering. Of course theoretically, it seems sound to me, and most experiences that I have with zergs, are like the ones in your video. People are human and with all that’s going on aren’t going to immediately cleanse every threatening condition put on them. This still leaves the issue of the damage it does, and in the video it seems low. Hence where my build’s premise has its main flaw. Shatter is as unreliable as the build that I proposed, theoretically, assuming the zerg has perfect human beings who have perfect cleansing timing, and they manage to kill all incoming clones.
Unfortunately, it seems that Shatter is better simply because its damage doesn’t have a ramp up time. Put another way, if you somehow managed to shatter your clones successfully, as most criticisms of Mesmer would have you believe that this is impossible, because of the perfect awareness of the enemy zerg, you’ll do all of your damage upfront, while condition damage needs to be built up to rival the shatter damage, and this can be cleansed.
Still, I suppose I could defend my build by saying that Aegis or blind is to Shatter builds (or other direct damage mitigating factors), what condi cleanse is to condition builds. I’ve even thought about replacing the scepter with greatsword, primarily due to how its clone on the #2 works, but that doesn’t change much. Other than provide more direct damage thanks to the range of spacial surge. Ultimately, all I can hope for is that HoT changes the Mesmer enough to be more of a presence in WvW, besides being a portal/veil bot.
Lady Novae – 80 Human Ele – Blackgate
(edited by Alasteir.7031)
Ultimately, all I can hope for is that HoT changes the Mesmer enough to be more of a presence in WvW, besides being a portal/veil bot.
Oh, it will. Stay tuned…
All fine but shatter build being as unreliable as this one.
Triumphant Distortion makes melee shatter the best build for zerguing, yet it has a really high skill floor so only very experienced mesmers in zerg fights are able to be effective dealing damage without dying, specially with the new pirateship meta.
Ansau – Sylvari Mesmer – Exiled Warriors [wE] – Gandara
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
i7 5775c @ 4.1GHz – 12GB RAM @ 2400MHz – RX 480 @ 1390/2140MHz
(edited by Ansau.7326)
You get 100+ more condi dmg by going for dire stats instead of rabid due to the % gained from vitality by the nourishment consumable.
80 Everything except Ranger & Guardian.
Theorycrafter & trickster.
Friend, father & lover!
Theorycrafter & trickster.
Friend, father & lover!
Really, I would think the most viable build for mesmer in a zerg is a CI/BI harass build. Picking off eles and necros would seem to be more valuable than trying to zerg dive on a light armor class. If you are crafty enough you could combine the two, trading utility for glamours.
This really rough build seems fun enough to try a few times:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7dlsnpRttqxUNcrNSphY6cz2dynRJZgDA-TFyCABAcQAO+BAAouBkvCALv/gnq/koSwsU+FAABwRP6RP6RPazcmHdmHdmFCYxaA-w
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