Guild Wars 2

I was reading up on some older Glamour builds and wanted to try to re-create a similar playstyle to that of Kylia’s “Triforce” build that was around for a while before the Confusion Nerf. I think I’ve come up with something that could prove to be a pretty formidable force in WvW Zerg fights (which is the aim of the build). It’s got incredible tanky-ness, amazing AOE/Tagging potential, and really messes up large groups if they don’t pay attention to what’s happening… or even if they do.

It has the added bonus of being somewhat of a “Condition Shatter” playstyle of a build if you are solo/small group roaming. The 1vX potential is there, but I definitely see it shining better in large fights obviously.

I call it: The Tormential Downpour

I know that Maim isn’t that great of a trait, but with the added Condition Duration the build/gear has, and nothing else really helping the way the build plays as a Grandmaster trait, it certainly doesn’t hurt the build. The idea is to tear apart the rushing zerg with the obvious Glamour (Null/Feedback), and Reflect their projectile push with your 20s Curtain. Add on top of that some Clone Shatters if you get the chance in the middle of it all, and you’ve got some nice AoE Torment/Confusion raining down on a large group.

Now granted, creating clones isn’t as easy because of no Deceptive Evasion. But this isn’t really meant to be a Shatter build, but more of a Zerg Bunker, that has the ability to perform in smaller scale fights with some Condition Shattering. I also use Traveler runes because I can’t stand getting left behind in WvW, so could be swapped for something more suitable if you run with a guild that’s good at Swiftness sharing.

Anyone got thoughts / criticism / feedback?

If you think it’s awful you won’t hurt my feelings by saying so, just explain why so I can learn something from it.

Good idea, but far from being optimal.

1- IP is better than MtD even for roaming, and is zergs there’s no reason to bring a shatter build if you don’t take IP. All AI die in less than a second in a ZvZ, so you need to makes shatters 100% reliable. Less than that means lowering the effectiveness of the build.

2- Without IP, don’t know why you also prefer not having DE. How will you create illusions to shatter?
Scepter autoattack is way to slow to be your main source of clones to shatter. And Staff creates even less clones.

3- In zergs, Direct damage>>>>>>>>Conditions, unless you’re a necro that can spam tons and tons of conditions and being immortal with the healing through them.

Also, people misunderstand an optimal zerg build with a build that tags a lot. Unless you go with a pug blob, where skill and personal performance doesn’t matter, a build with high DPS or high support will be way more useful than a build that just tags.

The main playstyle of the build was intended to be a Reflect/Confusion mass applier through Glamours and Focus. Much like older Glamour builds succeeded incredibly at, until the confusion nerf.

The shatter aspect was more just there for added AOE potential in a big teamfight after the zergs have clashed. A glass power shatter build dies in about 2 seconds in these scenarios, so I want something Tanky that can survive, but still do some damage, hence Confusion shatter/torment.

I suppose I could drop the Shatter traits altogether and spec into something like on clone death traits, but really then the only difference is that I lose the control of WHEN I want them to take damage.

Everytime I post something on this forum that isn’t PU or Power Shatter, everyone assumes that’s what I’m trying to aim towards, and makes comments to make the build become either a Power Shatter, or a bunker PU build. I promise you, there are other ways to play a Mesmer than that… I really do appreciate the reply and feedback, but all 3 of your responses basically say “This won’t work because it isn’t power shatter” to me…

Don’t you think I haven’t tried to play non-meta builds in every game mode?
In zergs, I’ve tested power shatter, condition shatter, PU, clone death, mantra support, power phantasm, reflection, zergmower…
And it’s not like power shatter is better than others, but more that those others end up being just veilbots with minimal impact during the fights.
Only zergmower has a place against pug zergs, but even there, you still rely too much on RNG and sometimes it fails to do it best.

Meta builds are not playe cause they’re the fanciest, but cause they’re the most effective. Unluckily for us, this game is more a Build Wars 2 than a Skill Wars 2. There’re few top builds than melt any other form of meta, even if they’re played by really skilled players.

I guess I just find Power Shatter less effective because I run with somewhat organized zergs, but often pugs, so the reliance on people doing good things is limited, and I end up dying too fast.

I was looking for a good “Bunker” Zerg build that has the ability to effect the entire enemy zerg somehow (confusion via glamours, feedback, reflect focus). I do agree that while the Meta Shatter build probably performs better in ideal circumstances, I think clones just die way too fast to rely on them that much.

With this build I feel like Shatters are a support damage to the Glamour/Feedback/Reflect. If I run into a 1v1, or less than 5v5 basically, I have no doubts I’d be tanky enough to be a PITA to kill, while also really keeping some pressure on with Staff Clones, Scepter torment, and confusion/torment shatters.

Maybe it’s just my playstyle that makes me think it would work well. :S

Confusion is in general pretty disappointing as a source of damage unless you’re running Perplexity which allows you to apply it more consistently. Ever since they halved its damage, Confusion from shatters simply doesn’t do enough to warrant making a build around it.

You’d probably get more bang for your buck with Reflects if you were running more Precision and Ferocity.

While I like the idea of a Condition Shatter build, it’s going to be difficult to get the damage you’re probably hoping for with such limited clone generation. Having Illusionist’s Celerity from the Illusions line helps a little, but probably not enough to have consistent damage output.

If you really want to go tanky and want to hang onto your Dire gear, I would suggest trying 0/0/5/3/6. (Grab V and X from Chaos) You still won’t have Deceptive Evasion, (or Sharper Images for that matter) but at least the conditions you do apply will pack more of a punch with Chaotic Transference. Reduced cooldowns on your Staff skills will help out a little with making clones, (Bringing Phase Retreat to every six seconds) and Debilitating Dissipation will provide extra conditions even if your clones don’t make it to their targets when you shatter them.

Confusion from Glamours is nice for tagging, but not that useful in small group scenarios for actually killing anything. You’ll lose some of your extended duration by dropping the points from Domination, but you’ll become even harder to kill and your conditions will do more per tick rather than lasting longer. You’d also lose your traited Focus with my trait setup, but I would consider switching to another offhand anyway since your focus can’t apply conditions other than Cripple since your phantasm doesn’t have Sharper Images (or much Critical Chance, for the matter)

One last thing – Condition builds in zergs are in general not that useful since condition clearing is relatively common and widespread. This build looks like it could be effective for smaller-scale fights, but as others have said I wouldn’t say that it’s exactly optimal.

I’m interested to see how it plays for you though. Great to see some fresh ideas!

Hmm… some good suggestions Sinaya. I’ve noticed that while Confusion is not really that great from shattering, the Glamour/Confusion in zerg fights really helps me feel useful at the start of a big push, or in tight areas where I can drop Feedback/Null Field and watch people explode. I agree conditions aren’t great in huge zergs, but because confusion doesn’t work in the same general manner as other conditions, and it’s very short term, and people are always spamming things in zergs, I find it pretty useful.

If I were to change the build drastically, I think I’d still want to hold on to that Confusion on Glamour. I’d be willing to negotiate the Torment Shatter maybe, but then it’s just another basic Condition Bunker build, really.

I actually am wearing full exotic Rabid with the build right now, Dire is just something I’d like to work towards.

While the Focus isn’t really all that useful, I agree, the reflect is really nice to have for zergs and on walls.

I wonder if there’s a way to shift my builds Confusion focus, to a more Reflect/Retaliation + generic condition focus? Since Confusion is lacking so much.

Any ideas on how to do that? Love discussing this with other people, as I can’t always see the bigger picture.

I think what’s tricky here is that the build described might be trying to do too many things at once. Emphasizing Retaliation, Reflection, and Condition Damage all at once is pretty MAD, (Multiple Ability Dependent,) and would leave your stats spread pretty thin.

Retaliation worked a lot better for Mesmers when our Phantasms would pulse it indefinitely and you could essentially double its damage output by having a Phantasmal Defender out, but now it’s just sort of an add-on rather than a primary damage source. (Pyroathiest had a pretty good build that relied on Retalion back on the day, but it’s an out-of-date concept now post nerf.) Retaliation damage is based on your Power, so if wanted to focus on that you’d also probably want to change out of Condition Damage gear.

The build would have to change pretty drastically to improve your Reflection damage since Reflection is based on your personal Precision / Ferocity (and your opponent’s power – more on this in maxinion’s guide here)

If you still really want to swing that way though, this is my rough idea for how to build a supportive reflection setup:

Quickie Reflection Experiment

Unfortunately, needing Power, Precision and Ferocity to be effective leaves a Mesmer pretty vulnerable, so if you’re used to playing with a tankier setup I wouldn’t really recommend a PvP build with full Assassin’s gear, which would probably be optimal for this kind of build. I’ve neglected Condition Damage for this particular build since it doesn’t mix too well with a Retaliation / Reflection damage focus.

Dueling III and Chaos III combined with Mimic can potentially stack a lot of Retaliation for you, but requires a lot of people to hit you in succession, would generally wouldn’t be recommended for a glassy build. (These traits could easily be replaced for something else if Retaliation became less important to you.)

This is sort of a Power-based Support build, offering its support through Reflects, (Feedback, Traited Focus, Mirror Heal) AoE Blind via Feedback / Null Field, Interrupts via Into the Void / Chaos Storm, and a pinch of AoE Regeneration from your Phantasms. A Greatsword could replace the Staff if you’re feeling like you’d benefit from more Offense.

It damage output aside from Reflects is a bit sub-par, but different Food / Sigils can be used to adjust this. Bountiful Interruption has the potential to provide a lot of Might for you too combined with your AoE Interrupts.

To get a good amount of Critical Chance while still maintaining some toughness, I’ve selected some unconventional gear. You’ll see what I mean in the link. Individual pieces can be adjusted for more Power / Ferocity accordingly as desired. (The setup I linked has a whopping 84% Crit Chance with food, 73% without)

You might also consider trying out the Phantasmal Disenchanter in place of Null Field, or if a Support Role feels really good somehow, playing with some Mantras and Restorative Mantras could be interesting too.

Two more quick things:

For the original build you posted, I would suggest trying out Doom or Geomancy Sigils. Both are pretty nice condition damage options, especially if you haven’t already bought Malice, (which is overpriced in my opinion).

Regarding the Reflection suggestions I made before, there’s probably other options available for Runes that might further improve your Precision / Ferocity, (or durability for the matter,) but I went with Traveler because I understand wanting to maintain mobility.

I’m definitely open to a lot of build ideas right now. Just came back from a year break and am trying to find my niche as a Mesmer again. To be honest I like the Staff because of it’s survivability, and because I find Power classes to be somewhat boring to play. I want to see numbers flying off the mobs.

However, a Retaliation/Reflection focused Power build would be a bit different, and a lot more fun. I don’t like the idea of being super squishy, that’s why I’m avoiding just rolling the meta Power Shatter. I find it boring, and die too often in zergs.

Will have a look at your posted suggestions/build and reply back in a bit! At work haha.

Edit: I think I’d be more inclined to go with something like a Never-Shatter Condition build like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhEQNAW7flknpUtlpxVNcrNSpxY2cOikBcQZHpcA-T1yCABOcBAgQJIAPAgjPIA7t/QTK9uU9nCM9JxRAILlB6pbQUQaE-w

But I guess I just feel like it doesn’t have enough damage potential. Maybe I’m under estimating Bleed/Burn stacks from Staff clones. It’s still quite Tanky I imagine… and has the added bonus of “tagging” potential in huge WvW fights. Definitely a much more reliable Solo/Small group roaming build as well.