Guild Wars 2

so what our problems to have some build diversity

for what i read in those forums

1. power build need more power dmg to be par with thieves, rev etc…
2. more condition cleanse abilities to handle condi bombs

solution

1. power build – give gs more AA dmg – easy isnt it. test it and adjust later more skills dmg if needed
2. conditions – this is the main issue with build diversity as for now we stuck in inspiration line so

domination line – dazzling – dazing also cleanse 1 condition. not so op as you can daze for offensive and defensive. and when daze 5 enemies good for you if you manage to do so. so can counter necros with rise or mm and condimesmer with clones.

dueling line – critical infusion also cleanse 1 condition . 10 sec cd. good buff for dueling line as minor trait and with 10 sec cd so no op.

chaos line – chaotic persistence – for every 4 new boons on you you get 2 sec resistance. great for support mesmer which needs to apply many boons on himself or play with shout ele.

chornomancer – AWtEW – should also cleanse 1 condition from allies standing in it. as alacrity nerfed hard to hardly being used and same for wells atm.

now lets see if the combinations of those trait line can make OP build.

lockdown
use domination and can choose from dueling, chrono, chaos and not must go with inspiration. so 3 trait lines will give them 1 cleanse on daze assuming 5 sec cd. 1 cleanse on crit 10 sec cd. 1 cleanse when using well 20-40 cd. today it has no cleanse at all.

condimes
use illusion and can choose from chrono, chaos and dueling . they need crit so need to use crit chance amulet like viper or wanderer so more vulnerability with low hp. so without inspiration the trait line wont be so op. and can have 2 condimes builds with blind from dueling.

powermes
use dueling and can choose from domination, chaos, chrono. again not so much condi cleanse/resistance like other power class have.

supportmes
use chaos and inspiration mainly and need to proc boons to have the resistance. so the 2 sec resistance will enable him to take other utilities like more wells or glamour field etc… might be too good with cleanse

you can start with small changes for 1 trait line or 2 like dueling and domination. and than check what needed more is at all

• solution to low damage: rebalance mesmer damage, away from phantasm and in weapon skills instead (see my signature)

• solution to condi cleanse: rebalance conditions completely, separating debuffs (vuln, immob, blind, chill etc…) and damaging conditions (burning, bleeding, confusion etc…). Then rebalance hybrid damage to be on par with power damage (same overall DPS per number of stat) and reduce the amount of debuffs, with the idea that some classes excel in boons (ele, guardian, engi) some with debuffs (thief, necro) and some with a mix (mesmer, druid, warrior). Finally allow cleanse to only affect debuff (and reduce their amount and make many of them debuff-specific).This would overall reduce the need for condi cleanse (they will be used only to remove debuffs), and give them the same preponderance as boon corruption. Mobile builds or classes (thief, mesmer) would have easy access to self- immob/chill/cripple cleanse. Guardian would excel at AOE condition cleanse. Chill’s cooldown slowing would be reduced (like alacrity). We would live in a happy world!

I know it won’t happen, but I like unrealistic ideas.

Silverkey.2078:

• solution to low damage: rebalance mesmer damage, away from phantasm and in weapon skills instead (see my signature)

• solution to condi cleanse: rebalance conditions completely, separating debuffs (vuln, immob, blind, chill etc…) and damaging conditions (burning, bleeding, confusion etc…). Then rebalance hybrid damage to be on par with power damage (same overall DPS per number of stat) and reduce the amount of debuffs, with the idea that some classes excel in boons (ele, guardian, engi) some with debuffs (thief, necro) and some with a mix (mesmer, druid, warrior). Finally allow cleanse to only affect debuff (and reduce their amount and make many of them debuff-specific).This would overall reduce the need for condi cleanse (they will be used only to remove debuffs), and give them the same preponderance as boon corruption. Mobile builds or classes (thief, mesmer) would have easy access to self- immob/chill/cripple cleanse. Guardian would excel at AOE condition cleanse. Chill’s cooldown slowing would be reduced (like alacrity). We would live in a happy world!

I know it won’t happen, but I like unrealistic ideas.

i tried to go on more easy implementation

i agree with anet that enter the condi meta. you used to see only power meta which shifted to more balance once with both condi and power

in average you see 2 condi class, 1 support and 2 power class. while we used to see 1-2 support and 3 dmg and 1 condi.
so atm group trying to think for counter which is good .

but still we need build diversity and than you will see more complex intresting amusing fight. as team will need to master 2 classes so to be able to counter many builds and not just 1 build. and they group build will be more interesting and not so dull

While I’m all for introducing more cleanse into core trait lines, power creep becomes a concern the moment you buff elite specs. Elite specs need a unique nitch, and need to stick to that nitch. If you choose an elite spec (lol) then you can round your build out with core lines (choosing damage, utility, cleanse, support, whatever).

As for adding more damage to GS AA… SNORE. Please, it might be “simple” but it’s lame. The game doesnt need more AA 1 spam. (Back in the days of WvW, my guild on it’s raids would charge into a fight and everyone would say “oneoneoneoneoneoneoneoneoneone”). We have a ton of sustained damage in our phantasms. The thing it that people favor the sustain weapons over the ones with high damage phants (and for good reason). That and there are some shortcomings to various phants given the nature of the game (scrapper hammer aoe spam damage is redic). That said, things like chronophantasma have gone a long way to make phantasms presence more potent since a single shatter won’t instantly wipe them off the board. Phant’s lifespan go way down in team fights, but in smaller encounters they do a lot better. This is good for the old mesmer duelist motif that still exists in this game. Excelling at 1v1.

The last thing I want to see is another Rev, dishing out insane DPS by spamming his 1. And if you didnt notice, you only suggested it on the GS. Great, so our other weapons will continue to suck XD

the problem with elite spec is a must at the moment while it doesnt have to be unless you wanna have a unique ability like cs and alacrity (which got nerfed)
the diversity comes for more option related to the main problem we have which is condi cleanse.
regarding dmg – anet said she wants mesmer to shatter more. so to buff the shatter ability with more dmg will buff more the condi mesmer . buff the phantasm will hindered the goal anet wants us to shatter. thus dilemma.
sword also need buff to its dmg mainly AA.
and yes its more AA spamming. look at the thief, engi and rev. i dont say buffing it with 50% rather to be more par with others but not better.
our phantasm will work only in duel or maybe in 2v2 out of point. unless they buff the health of the phantasm.

i only want to see more diversity so more mind games and tactics over same comp versus same comp which ended in rotation game mainly.

So maybe good idea will be giving our phantasm AA.
So they will be doing some more sustain damage between they designe attacks.

The reason our pve damage has to be low is in part because of pve utility with null field – quickness etc, but mostly because of pvp utility and how difficult a Mesmer is to kill. If you increase the damage you have to rework our utility for avoiding incoming damage – that includes blink, decoy, moa, F3 shatter, F4 shatter, F5 (chrono) shatter, entire mechanic behind clones and confusing the enemy.

If I had to choose I’d rather keep the class as a core how it currently is rather than breaking it and rebuilding it to accommodate more damage. Power could use a small buff to its damage but it wouldn’t take much to send it over the top.

The problem is that our low damage is a burden in all game modes, despite our utilities.

• In organized PvE, alacrity/quickness makes up for our low damage, but in solo play, our low sustained damage can be a burden, especially in HoT. For example, I find pocket raptors super difficult to deal with compare to my necro or guardian (haven’t tried other classes yet).
• In PvP, we have high burst, but no follow up damage in power builds. This is one of the reason we don’t see much power mesmer anymore. In the same way, mesmer cannot build for bruiser-y playstyle, because our damage as a bruiser is close to 0
• In WvW GvG, we have basically no damage since our phantasms die instantly in a zerg (or after 1s if traited… yeah!).

So we have to get more sustained damage if we want balance and diversity. Of course it needs to be made so that we don’t get overpowered, meaning that:

• building for alacrity/quickness should reduce your overall damage. This is already the case because we need to use shield phantasm instead of sword. This kind of compromise has to be kept if we want to increase our damage.
• our burst may need reduction to adjust for increased sustained damage, though I don’t think by much (if at all)
• in WvW GvG, there is really no need for compensation, we are currently VERY underpowered

On the other hand, I think the GS is not the main priority for sustained damage. I would basically reduce the gap between short range and long range damage, since I don’t see the point of it, but GS is a good burst weapon and has decent DPS at full range. One thing which I would really like is to change the staff to a more AOE weapon. We really need some better AOE capabilities and staff feels to me like the best place to have it. So instead of a single target phantasm, I would like to see some AOE damage on skill 3 (and also more damage on skill 5). And maybe the AA changed to a less “bouncy” and more “small AOE impact”.

I’m in agreement with Silverkey about the need for buffing our sustained damage however I don’t entirely agree with buffing GS auto. GS auto should be on par with say ranger longbow for damage and leave it at that. However buffing the sword auto, as others have said in other threads, in a similar way to what was done with thieves sword would really help.

I would also envisage phantasms being removed and you simply have clone generating attacks. Give the clones a little HP buff and add a simple AI where they copy your animation and move when you do. They go in a different direction to you 50% of the time and jump when they come to elevation differences. There we go, something that might actually be confusing.

Then clone generating attacks be buffed to be on par with other classes and be similar to what the phantasms did themselves.

So for example the pwarden would be replaced with a summoned AoE whirlwind attack with a total of 12 hits every 0.5s that lasts 6s and a coefficient of 0.5 per hit. Clone is generated at the end of the attack and it blocks projectiles, can be traited to reflect and reduced to 12s CD via numerous traits.

Yes it would be a lot of work but it could lead to mesmers having a place in large scale WvW, viable DPS builds in PvE that compete with guards in utility and damage and lead to power builds in PvP being able to keep pressure on people long enough actually kill them with shatters instead of burst and run if it didn’t work.

guys try to keep it simple. giving your dream might need to reshape this whole game concept

The thing is the problem isn’t simple and not just with mesmers, there are deep rooted mechanical issues with all classes and you can’t simply solve them. If they were simple to solve ANet should have done it by now with number tweaks, however they haven’t because it’s not simple.

Messiah, I absolutely love some of your suggestions. In fact, the same thing should be done with other classes as well. Many of them have a specfic trait thats really powerful in condi removal when the ability to remove condies should be spread out more. Personally, I think all trait lines for all classes should have at least one trait that removes a condition except for the elite specialization trait lines. This will at least help pull the elites closer to the base while at the same time making it so specific trait lines that specialize in condi removal are not necessary, therefore increasing build diversity.

I would also like to see a bounce added to gs 2
A very slight power damage buff to phantasms across the board (don’t think toning down burst is necessary)
Shattered Concentration changed to remove two boons on shatter instead of just one
I think the gs AA is fine the way it is IMO.

However, perhaps I am out in my little own world dreaming about many of these changes.

He has a good point, compare the AA damage of sword to that of a Revenant. It’s pathetic. Can we at least do half their dmg?

Xstein.2187:

Messiah, I absolutely love some of your suggestions. In fact, the same thing should be done with other classes as well. Many of them have a specfic trait thats really powerful in condi removal when the ability to remove condies should be spread out more. Personally, I think all trait lines for all classes should have at least one trait that removes a condition except for the elite specialization trait lines. This will at least help pull the elites closer to the base while at the same time making it so specific trait lines that specialize in condi removal are not necessary, therefore increasing build diversity.

I would also like to see a bounce added to gs 2
A very slight power damage buff to phantasms across the board (don’t think toning down burst is necessary)
Shattered Concentration changed to remove two boons on shatter instead of just one
I think the gs AA is fine the way it is IMO.

However, perhaps I am out in my little own world dreaming about many of these changes.

if you check clossly other classes they have some condi cleanse trait spread which not related to weapon set.

thief – SA, ACRO, DD with great dodging ,evades frame
ele – fire, earth, water, tempest with good regen and healing abilities.
warrior – defense, tactic, discipline, berserker
ranger – nature, druid, ws. with shouts and rune
necro – dm, curses, spite. with good second health bar managing.
guard – valor, dh, virtues, honor
engi – alchemy, invention. but got great regen and healing uptime traits.
rev – corruption, salvation, invocation

mesmer – insp only!

see the problem!!!!

While some ideas are interesting, I got to agree with Ross. It’s too much.

A start would be buffing our condition removal utilities (e.g. Nullfield, Arcane Thievery, iDisenchanter). We can’t expect to get condition removal served on a silver platter.

If its still enough, I’d like to see some options in Chaos. Domination doesn’t fit and already got Signets (and the Idea with Dazzling is waaaaay to powerful). Duelling is more about avoidance. So if it got something anti-condi it shouldn’t be removal.

Xaylin.1860:

While some ideas are interesting, I got to agree with Ross. It’s too much.

A start would be buffing our condition removal utilities (e.g. Nullfield, Arcane Thievery, iDisenchanter). We can’t expect to get condition removal served on a silver platter.

If its still enough, I’d like to see some options in Chaos. Domination doesn’t fit and already got Signets (and the Idea with Dazzling is waaaaay to powerful). Duelling is more about avoidance. So if it got something anti-condi it shouldn’t be removal.

too much????

check what other class have atm 4 trait line with passive condi cleanse while we have 1!
i am not talking about trait weapon/utility cleanse like signet torch as other class got those like warrior , thief, etc…

The initial design of a-net was that not all classes can deal with conditions as easily. Mesmer was designed as a condi-vulnerable class, so was engineer or revenant. In the current situation, conditions are just too prevalent. To some extent, I would argue it’s not even the damage but the debuff which is really the most dangerous. I feel that chill or immobilize have killed me much more than burning, confusion or torment.

The main problem is that now classes can stack 5 different conditions on you in 1 or 2s, and if you are focused in a game, you will very fast have all 13.

For example, a reaper with staff 5 apply fear. Fear applies chill. Chill applies bleeds and vulnerability. So in one skill, you already have 4 conditions. Staff 3 does the same (with poison instead of fear). Skull grinder on berserker applies 4 condition and a daze.

Many of the cleanse were designed for 1 conditions (signet and torch for mesmer for example). 1 condition is currently absolutely nothing. And because the way it is designed, if you want to remove the chill, you may have to remove all the cover conditions (no priority).

So yes, conditions are currently out of balance, and the devs need to gather and try to think of what they want to achieve with them. So do we need to change the pledge or blurred inscriptions to 5 cleanse per skill (basically how much we need to make it work) or should we instead rebalance conditions completely.

They aren’t going to completely change our class mechanics. Some of these suggestions are reasonable, but most are basically asking for a class or condition redesign. That’s not likely to happen.

Silverkey.2078:

The initial design of a-net was that not all classes can deal with conditions as easily. Mesmer was designed as a condi-vulnerable class, so was engineer or revenant. In the current situation, conditions are just too prevalent. To some extent, I would argue it’s not even the damage but the debuff which is really the most dangerous. I feel that chill or immobilize have killed me much more than burning, confusion or torment.

The main problem is that now classes can stack 5 different conditions on you in 1 or 2s, and if you are focused in a game, you will very fast have all 13.

For example, a reaper with staff 5 apply fear. Fear applies chill. Chill applies bleeds and vulnerability. So in one skill, you already have 4 conditions. Staff 3 does the same (with poison instead of fear). Skull grinder on berserker applies 4 condition and a daze.

Many of the cleanse were designed for 1 conditions (signet and torch for mesmer for example). 1 condition is currently absolutely nothing. And because the way it is designed, if you want to remove the chill, you may have to remove all the cover conditions (no priority).

So yes, conditions are currently out of balance, and the devs need to gather and try to think of what they want to achieve with them. So do we need to change the pledge or blurred inscriptions to 5 cleanse per skill (basically how much we need to make it work) or should we instead rebalance conditions completely.

rev got more dmg and engi more cc and sustain this they have less condi cleanse ability while having better sustain/healing and regen abilities.

as you said giving 1 condi cleanse in each trait line wont make op much as you still need to dodge the fear mark and play smartly. but it opens up more ways for mesmer to sustain the fight a bit. like dueling can take generosity so every crit will cleanse 2 condition every 10 sec which is reasonable

domination dazzling might seem strong so you can force it to cleanse only once even if you daze 5 enemies. and it opens up strategic game of defense and offense

chrono had the 1 cleanse in the wells and they took it away. while meantime they buff more class with conditions abilities.

with diversity it will open up so many class composition so it will leas for less need in balance as one build can counter the other and without knowing which build the enemy is using is the element of surprise. so fight will be more entertainable.

Um…mesmer isn’t lacking cleanses, you have phantasmal disenchanter, mantra of resolve, null field, arcane thievery, well of eternity in chrono.

Trait wise we have as much as others, cleanse on signet use, cleanse 2 on heal which pairs really well with mantra of recovery, the single cleanse on torch skills and insp line.

The problem is Mesmer felt like it needed portal, blink and decoy so we didn’t have room for the utility cleanses and some of them absolutely suck at hitting or do not work 99% of the time which is a mechanic issue, yes, you, disenchanter.

apharma.3741:

Um…mesmer isn’t lacking cleanses, you have phantasmal disenchanter, mantra of resolve, null field, arcane thievery, well of eternity in chrono.

Mes has tons of cleansing options, but fitting them into a viable build is often impossible. Power shatter in PvP, for example, requires decoy and blink, then portal is the competative option. Mantra of Distraction is another vital pick to make things like Mental Anguish function. As a last option you could take something like the mantra cleanse, but then you’re dishing out of your role (+1 bursting) or utility/strength in a team (portal).

Also, not that it needs saying, but Disenchanter = fail, null field = to weak, AT = CD to high and hard to land, and rofl at well of eternity. XD. Mantra cleanse is dope though.

messiah.1908:

too much????

check what other class have atm 4 trait line with passive condi cleanse while we have 1!
i am not talking about trait weapon/utility cleanse like signet torch as other class got those like warrior , thief, etc…

I’m sorry but how is this an argument? Do you want every class to have passive and free condition removal? What’s the point? We might as well just play pong at that point.

Xaylin.1860:

messiah.1908:

too much????

check what other class have atm 4 trait line with passive condi cleanse while we have 1!
i am not talking about trait weapon/utility cleanse like signet torch as other class got those like warrior , thief, etc…

I’m sorry but how is this an argument? Do you want every class to have passive and free condition removal? What’s the point? We might as well just play pong at that point.

Passive is silly for any class (look at old Diamond Skin in particular). What I’d like to see is removal on effect. Inspiration is a MAJOR source of condition cleanse (and sustain in general) so keep that as is. But in other trait lines, more options for lesser degrees of condition cleansing for doing X. And have those traits compete with other popular picks that offer other benefits (more damage, more utility, whatever).

apharma.3741:

Um…mesmer isn’t lacking cleanses, you have phantasmal disenchanter, mantra of resolve, null field, arcane thievery, well of eternity in chrono.

Trait wise we have as much as others, cleanse on signet use, cleanse 2 on heal which pairs really well with mantra of recovery, the single cleanse on torch skills and insp line.

The problem is Mesmer felt like it needed portal, blink and decoy so we didn’t have room for the utility cleanses and some of them absolutely suck at hitting or do not work 99% of the time which is a mechanic issue, yes, you, disenchanter.

read carefully what i wrote . cleanse trait that not attached to weapon/utilities.
i did the comparison for you with other classes. mesmer got only inspiration line while other have 3-4 trait lines

Xaylin.1860:

messiah.1908:

too much????

check what other class have atm 4 trait line with passive condi cleanse while we have 1!
i am not talking about trait weapon/utility cleanse like signet torch as other class got those like warrior , thief, etc…

I’m sorry but how is this an argument? Do you want every class to have passive and free condition removal? What’s the point? We might as well just play pong at that point.

it is an argument while other classes have those and we dont. you may not like it but its valid point
thus open up more trait with cleanse option will make more trait diversity and build diversity

Ross Biddle.2367:

Xaylin.1860:

messiah.1908:

too much????

check what other class have atm 4 trait line with passive condi cleanse while we have 1!
i am not talking about trait weapon/utility cleanse like signet torch as other class got those like warrior , thief, etc…

I’m sorry but how is this an argument? Do you want every class to have passive and free condition removal? What’s the point? We might as well just play pong at that point.

Passive is silly for any class (look at old Diamond Skin in particular). What I’d like to see is removal on effect. Inspiration is a MAJOR source of condition cleanse (and sustain in general) so keep that as is. But in other trait lines, more options for lesser degrees of condition cleansing for doing X. And have those traits compete with other popular picks that offer other benefits (more damage, more utility, whatever).

thus we agree as my suggestions i think answer that.
having 4 boons to get resistance while make the mesmer build for boons build with chaos line which master in boons
having a crit cleanse in dueling will make you to attack and play aggressive and be ware from weakness which goes along with dueling line
doing daze again goes along with domination line
using well to cleanse 1 condition …
its so far from passive game play

its not much of cleanse as its only 1 while the game design atm push for having condi bomb on you if you not aware and not have support class with you

messiah.1908:

apharma.3741:

Um…mesmer isn’t lacking cleanses, you have phantasmal disenchanter, mantra of resolve, null field, arcane thievery, well of eternity in chrono.

Trait wise we have as much as others, cleanse on signet use, cleanse 2 on heal which pairs really well with mantra of recovery, the single cleanse on torch skills and insp line.

The problem is Mesmer felt like it needed portal, blink and decoy so we didn’t have room for the utility cleanses and some of them absolutely suck at hitting or do not work 99% of the time which is a mechanic issue, yes, you, disenchanter.

read carefully what i wrote . cleanse trait that not attached to weapon/utilities.
i did the comparison for you with other classes. mesmer got only inspiration line while other have 3-4 trait lines

Yes but those other classes have less utilities that are cleanses. You can’t straight up compare them because they are different.

Example is ele. The number of utilities they have that actually cleanse conditions are 2 and both are for self only (cleansing fire and signet of water). However through traits they can get much stronger cleansing to self and allies however the majority of that is still in one line, water.

Mesmer on the other hand has much more cleanses in utilities, not only for self but allies. The problem in PvP as both I and Ross Biddle mentioned is that your utility bar is pretty much set to the same few skills. In PvE the problem was mesmer did so little DPS it just didn’t compete with guards except for speed running portals. Post HoT and chrono mesmer can free up a single utility slot which can be used for a cleanse but mostly you can get other classes to do that while you focus on quickness/alacrity.

This is why I said earlier that there isn’t a simple solution because things are not simple and you cannot straight up compare some classes. Simple number tweaking and simple solutions won’t fix the core issues, it’s just putting a band aid on the problem.

Also your comparison is biased, it doesn’t show number of condi cleanse trait and you miss out other Mesmer ones.

Mesmer – domination, inspiration, illusions. If you count adding an extra charge to mantra of resolve you can even say duelling too.

apharma.3741:

Also your comparison is biased, it doesn’t show number of condi cleanse trait and you miss out other Mesmer ones.

Mesmer – domination, inspiration, illusions. If you count adding an extra charge to mantra of resolve you can even say duelling too.

how biased

name one trait which is not weapon related and out of inspiration line?

ele also have shouts and rune to use with shout so he have more utilities which cleanse also getting regen with trait which assign to utilities so utilities also cleanse combine with trait. so i think you wrong

you are right mesmer are stuck with portal, blink and maybe 1 utility spot

thus again i think adding more trait cleanse diversity will solve this issue

messiah.1908:

apharma.3741:

Also your comparison is biased, it doesn’t show number of condi cleanse trait and you miss out other Mesmer ones.

Mesmer – domination, inspiration, illusions. If you count adding an extra charge to mantra of resolve you can even say duelling too.

how biased

name one trait which is not weapon related and out of inspiration line?

Blurred inscription.

Seeing as we’re putting arbitrary limitations on what we allow people to complain about I say to you, name the ele traits that cleanse conditions not related to weapon skills or the water line.

I’ll spare you the trouble, Burning fire, evasive arcana in water and diamond skin. However the latter require you to be hit and has limitations.

messiah.1908:

ele also have shouts and rune to use with shout so he have more utilities which cleanse also getting regen with trait which assign to utilities so utilities also cleanse combine with trait. so i think you wrong

you are right mesmer are stuck with portal, blink and maybe 1 utility spot

thus again i think adding more trait cleanse diversity will solve this issue

You’re missing what I’m saying. Ele doesn’t have shouts cleansing conditions by default, they must trait into water and pick invigorating torrents in tempest. They don’t have utilities that cleanse in an AoE by default, they have to trait, usually in water, for this. Eles really don’t have a lot of cleanses just in utilities, they have some cleansing as default on some weapons though but it’s not a huge amount for personal cleanse.

Mesmer in comparison requires 0 trait investment to get decent condition clearing with null field, well of eternity, mantra of resolve, phantasmal miss-enchanter and arcane thievery. As I was saying, that mesmers can’t pick them because of utility slot restrictions we both agree on.

It’s like the saying that I don’t like but people use on these forums a lot. You can’t compare Apples and Oranges, one class is heavily trait dependent for cleansing power and the other is utility dependent.

Edit:

A better comparison is guard and mesmer as both are to some extent utility dependent for cleansing with some additional cleansing through traits.

Total guard traits for cleansing: 4 in 4 lines (I don’t count both smiters boon and strength of the fallen as you have one or the other not both)

Total mesmer traits for cleansing: 4 in 3 lines (I didn’t count extra mantra charge or glamour master resistance but they are worth noting)

messiah.1908:

too much????

check what other class have atm 4 trait line with passive condi cleanse while we have 1!
i am not talking about trait weapon/utility cleanse like signet torch as other class got those like warrior , thief, etc…

It’s a ‘He got sweets so I want some, too.’ argument. Of course, you can make it an argument but it’s a bad one. Because it’s ultimatively bad for the game.

messiah.1908:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Xaylin.1860:

messiah.1908:

too much????

check what other class have atm 4 trait line with passive condi cleanse while we have 1!
i am not talking about trait weapon/utility cleanse like signet torch as other class got those like warrior , thief, etc…

I’m sorry but how is this an argument? Do you want every class to have passive and free condition removal? What’s the point? We might as well just play pong at that point.

Passive is silly for any class (look at old Diamond Skin in particular). What I’d like to see is removal on effect. Inspiration is a MAJOR source of condition cleanse (and sustain in general) so keep that as is. But in other trait lines, more options for lesser degrees of condition cleansing for doing X. And have those traits compete with other popular picks that offer other benefits (more damage, more utility, whatever).

thus we agree as my suggestions i think answer that.
having 4 boons to get resistance while make the mesmer build for boons build with chaos line which master in boons
having a crit cleanse in dueling will make you to attack and play aggressive and be ware from weakness which goes along with dueling line
doing daze again goes along with domination line
using well to cleanse 1 condition …
its so far from passive game play

its not much of cleanse as its only 1 while the game design atm push for having condi bomb on you if you not aware and not have support class with you

I’m all for more diversity when it comes to condition removal. But I’d start with utilities or even the heals (e.g. Ether Feast removing conditions instead of granting additional health).

And no, messiah. Those suggestions might sound interesting at first. But they are no way close to being better or more active than the dumb stuff other classes have.

• Condition removal on Daze is way too easy to achieve on Mesmers. It also creates other issues. For example, it basically does the same like Restorative Illusions with F3. Plus, mechanical diffculties. How would you make it work with area dazes (e.g. Mantra)? Put an ICD on it? Great, now it’s useless. Leave it without an ICD and make it OP in large scale fights?

• The only active thing of removing a condition on crit is occasionally swinging your weapon – which you do always unless stealthed or running around like a headless chicken. There is no skill or timing involved. The most important criteria here is having a high crit chance – not doing anything active.

• Gaining Resistance when having four boons looks very interesting conceptually. But ultimatively there isn’t much skill involved either. When running Chaos you will get that Resistance eventually. Your passives make up for at least 2 boons. It’s very easy to get the last 2 boons. Additionally, ANet just nerfed our Resistance through shatters and you poop on Temporal Enchanter with this trait. Not. Gonna. Happen.

• Wells already got condition removal through the heal.

Again: I do agree that the situation Mesmers are in regarding condition removal is bad. But I really disapprove of the way some people want to fix it. The suggestions above are pseudo active at best. You might as well just introduce more ‘Cast Power cleanse when x.’ traits.

Do you remember the time when all traitlines were viable? We had many very viable variants, like dom+duel + chaos (PU power shatter or interrupt), dom + duel + insp (mantra power shatter), dom+duel+illusion (another power shatter variant), duel + chaos + illusion (PU condi shatter), duel + insp + illusion (mantra condi shatter). At this time, our main diversity problem was our reliance on Dueling, this line you now consider “our weak line” , and inspiration was actually one of the least used one? We were even complaining on the forum that the line is weak (which I still think it is, mostly because I feel that it is too focused on survivability and not enough on support while being our main support line). Fun how things change!

Apparently, running with no cleanse or with only a utility cleanse was enough.

Since you like to compare us with elementalist, let me remind you how mesmer has much stronger damage avoidance and that we often build with the idea to simply avoid all damage and simply disengage in stealth if things turn bad.

So what does that say about the balance of our different lines? Well I believe it means our core traitline balance is fairly good and that currently, the only problem we have is power creep. I know I sound repetitive and I complain about this over and over again, but this is a fact. Conditions have now become more prevalent than before, not one condi like burn guard, but a whole pile of them. And the main problem in our build diversity is not inspiration but chronomancer. We run inspiration because we are facing a condi-heavy meta. This is not a build diversity problem, this is reactivity to the meta which is a healthy thing in the game. If you are facing a team with low condi pressure (which definitely happens in solo q) you can remove inspiration and play with other things. On the other hand, REGARDLESS of the enemy team, chronomancy is the best line to slot, and THIS is an unhealthy thing.

Silverkey.2078:

Do you remember the time when all traitlines were viable? We had many very viable variants, like dom+duel + chaos (PU power shatter or interrupt), dom + duel + insp (mantra power shatter), dom+duel+illusion (another power shatter variant), duel + chaos + illusion (PU condi shatter), duel + insp + illusion (mantra condi shatter). At this time, our main diversity problem was our reliance on Dueling, this line you now consider “our weak line” , and inspiration was actually one of the least used one? We were even complaining on the forum that the line is weak (which I still think it is, mostly because I feel that it is too focused on survivability and not enough on support while being our main support line). Fun how things change!

Apparently, running with no cleanse or with only a utility cleanse was enough.

Since you like to compare us with elementalist, let me remind you how mesmer has much stronger damage avoidance and that we often build with the idea to simply avoid all damage and simply disengage in stealth if things turn bad.

So what does that say about the balance of our different lines? Well I believe it means our core traitline balance is fairly good and that currently, the only problem we have is power creep. I know I sound repetitive and I complain about this over and over again, but this is a fact. Conditions have now become more prevalent than before, not one condi like burn guard, but a whole pile of them. And the main problem in our build diversity is not inspiration but chronomancer. We run inspiration because we are facing a condi-heavy meta. This is not a build diversity problem, this is reactivity to the meta which is a healthy thing in the game. If you are facing a team with low condi pressure (which definitely happens in solo q) you can remove inspiration and play with other things. On the other hand, REGARDLESS of the enemy team, chronomancy is the best line to slot, and THIS is an unhealthy thing.

This is just a curiosity thing. Do you think build diversity would be fine if all current elite spec lines remained the same, but we got 2 other potential elites specs to choose from instead of just the one line? Do you think people will still tend take the inspiration trait line? I know this is really theoretical. The only reason I say this is because I don’t necessarily think this is just “the meta”. I think condis are pretty much here to stay with the new amulets, condi rework, and new ways that you can apply condis. I don’t necessarily think the prevalence of condis will ever go back to the way it was pre HoT. I am also not saying messiah is necessarily right. I just think it might be nice to say, reduce power cleans from 2 to 1 conditions and give another trait line (besides chronomancer or illusions) a weak way to remove condis, not necessarily messiah’s ideas, just something.

i will try to explain myself bit more

first i agree with anet method to put back some condi build into the game. so now we have both power and condi diversity abilities. this is good thing
but doing so they need also to address the issue for counter play.

counter play comes from build diversity

like with bunkermes almost no counter to this build so anet instead of creating counter they remove amulets and nerf some traits.
same with condimes instead to create counter play they remove amulet and nerf bit more some trait

also take into consideration there is no much ppl who theory craft for couple of reason
1. no build diversity
2. too strong meta builds

now i saw immediately how warrior can counter condimes but the amount of QQ puts anet in the same way of thinking to nerf instead to address the problem

now the same problem with diversity is with every class not just mesmer
ele for example play for ling time only one build (holy trinity healer…)
same for all classes.
meser as some of you said in the past got stuck in dueling because the need in DE
with chrono and now condi builds the need in inspiration line came
also the unique part with mesmer as portal/ moa /blink is like shackles into our feet. with out them we not unique any more and with them we cant play different build (i do agree we have good utilities to address condi builds)

examine thief – unique part is stealth which can be achieve with utilities and weapon skills
ele – unique part is healing – has lost of regen, protection, vigor abilities both with trait combined with utilities and weapon (aura etc…)
and so on
mesmer design was imo to be supporter. support with dmg, control, and aoe. thus i think our utilities should also been achieved via weapon skills
condition isnt

also compare all profession trait line . i do believe we in worst case regarding conditions handling . not just ele.

thus there are several options. redesign utilities – much harder to do, redesign weapon skills (might be the way but wont open up much build diversity, redesign trait line

also in theory if we have more elite spec assuming we can choose one. if this elite wont address condition handling still inspiration will be chosen. so why to create more trait line while its easier to change some old traits

Blurred inscription – is design with signet. sry i meant any trait which not build with weapon/utilities. ele has 3 trait line as you wrote. correct. we have 1 . check all other classes you will see they have 3 at least . we have 1!
also shout with ele remove condition not related to trait rather rune of soldier. imagine mesmer got rune with well remove condition when being used. what do you think ppl will try out…. i think more wells utilities. maybe but its a possibility

i know its hard to compare apple to orange. but both grow on a tree. so while ele/guard got low health they have better regen/ healing scale/ remove conditions.

conclusion:
i am talking about diversity not wanting what others have.

i think the mesmer problem is in his uniqueness (portal/moa/blink) combine the bad abilitiy to handle conditions (not in 1v1)
thus opening abilities to handle conditions with trait line which are not passive rather make you play active might open up build diversity

i know i hate chrono line. its boring the unique got nerfed and slow is hardly viable. and ppl used it just cause of the shield. i think we might used to DE if we had a shield without chrono line.

Xstein.2187:

This is just a curiosity thing. Do you think build diversity would be fine if all current elite spec lines remained the same, but we got 2 other potential elites specs to choose from instead of just the one line? Do you think people will still tend take the inspiration trait line? I know this is really theoretical. The only reason I say this is because I don’t necessarily think this is just “the meta”. I think condis are pretty much here to stay with the new amulets, condi rework, and new ways that you can apply condis. I don’t necessarily think the prevalence of condis will ever go back to the way it was pre HoT. I am also not saying messiah is necessarily right. I just think it might be nice to say, reduce power cleans from 2 to 1 conditions and give another trait line (besides chronomancer or illusions) a weak way to remove condis, not necessarily messiah’s ideas, just something.

Sadly, I think your question is more relevant than my point. While I am not happy about it, I do feel that condi will just remain as they are and the elite specs too and diversity will come from additional elite spec (hoping they don’t power creep those even more).

And in this case the answer is not necessarily. Assuming no further power creep, the new spec will bring additional diversity. But they may have their own tools to deal with condi. For example, Chronomancer has tools to replace dueling, which is why this previously mandatory traitline has almost become the least useful traitline. Also, inspiration synergize well with chronomancer, since our main insp-cleanse come from shatters and chronomancer allows shatter spam. The new specs may have better synergy with other lines but bring their own cleanse to make inspiration less relevant.

One thing I would like to add about the mesmer cleanse: we do have a decent number of cleanse, but they are just clumsy. Null field takes its time to cleanse everything (I usually use it only with temporal enchanter, the initial resistance helping to survive while waiting for the cleanse), the mantra is… a mantra (typically the one I use though), disenchanter is… a phantasm (arguably worse than a mantra when it comes to clunkiness), arcane thievery has a long CD and fail more often than not, well heal is great, but insufficient.

And let us not forget about one we usually forget: the focus weapon! Many classes have cleanse in at least one weapon set. The focus in our only weapon with a cleanse. But this cleanse is not that reliable (it relies on our phantasm combo-ing in our light field, but we know how reliable and squishy our phantasms are) not to mention that focus is a particularly weak weapon to start with. In my phantasm rework suggestion (see signature), the combo finisher (as well as the phantasm) is now ground targeted (no need for AI nor target) and thus more reliable. Also the phantasm provides some healing, making the focus more useful and less situational.

so before adding new cleanse, why not improving the reliability of the ones we have.

Xaylin.1860:

Leave it without an ICD and make it OP in large scale fights?

It’d be the only thing Mesmer is good at in large scale fights.

Torches are great at removing conditions if you spec the pledege

Greasy.7609:

Torches are great at removing conditions if you spec the pledege

and pu and removing only 2 conditions wow tell it to mesmer and necro and warrior who will target you

Greasy.7609:

Torches are great at removing conditions if you spec the pledege

Yeah but The Pledge is also in Illusions which along with Inspiration and Chrono is “meta” anyway.

If Domination, Duelling and Chaos had even tiny condi cleanse/tramsmutation/transfer options, it would help spread out build options.

Curunen.8729:

Greasy.7609:

Torches are great at removing conditions if you spec the pledege

Yeah but The Pledge is also in Illusions which along with Inspiration and Chrono is “meta” anyway.

If Domination, Duelling and Chaos had even tiny condi cleanse/tramsmutation/transfer options, it would help spread out build options.

i would love to see dom, deul chaos build

Levetty.1279:

Xaylin.1860:

Leave it without an ICD and make it OP in large scale fights?

It’d be the only thing Mesmer is good at in large scale fights.

Delightful as ever.

Curunen.8729:

Greasy.7609:

Torches are great at removing conditions if you spec the pledege

Yeah but The Pledge is also in Illusions which along with Inspiration and Chrono is “meta” anyway.

If Domination, Duelling and Chaos had even tiny condi cleanse/tramsmutation/transfer options, it would help spread out build options.

I still think that skills and utilities should be the focus when it comes to buffing condition removal on Mesmers. Yes, we do need trait alternatives to Inspiration but buffing underused skills could help without shifting the power between the traitlines.

Since people have been talking about weapons:

• Torch could cleanse by default and gain something condition related when traited instead. There wouldn’t be a need to go for Illusions but traiting it could still be beneficial.
• Focus could also work for adding condition removal. For example, 2s of Resistance when placing a Temporal Curtain. We do know it could work (see Temporal Enchanter).

When talking about utilities:

• Nullfield needs a stronger frontloaded effect. I would love it if all boons and conditions where removed when the field is cast like it once did. Or the effect was doubled. Even if it meant a higher cooldown. 1 tick each second is way too slow even for PvE.
• Arcane Thievery desperately needs a way lower cooldown. Seriously. I’m talking about 15-20s here.
• Mantra of Resolve is worse than Mantra of Recovery + Menders Purity. I don’t want to see Menders Purity nerfed. But this doesn’t make any sense. I don’t see much that could be done here without ruining Menders Purity but a slightly lower cooldown could help.
• iDisenchanter could do with more health an being unblockable. Actually, so could the Defender.

Some ideas for traits, although – as already said – those should be last priority imho:

• Domination is fine as it is. It isn’t really about anything defensive and while Blurred Inscriptions isn’t too great as sole condition removal it already does enough. If anything could be buffed in this regard, ANet could consider changing up the passive effects of the Signets. E.g., Signet of Domination gets the increased condition duration and Signet of Midnight gets something defensive (e.g. decreased condition duration or even a ticking condi removal).

• Duelling could get condition removal related to Evasion or Blurr like Escapist Absolution. Actually, we could just copy that trait. Bonus: Synergizes with Blurred Inscriptions if it was on Evade rather than on Dodge. I already explained why I don’t like the idea of something ‘on crit’ related, especially since we already got a more suitable theme going on in this traitline.

• Chaos could get a condition removal related replacement for Illusionary Defense (I have never made a secret out of how much I hate those traits) or even Chaotic Transference which is okay-ish but underwhelming. If we want something active rather than passive, what about: Remove 1 condition when applying an Aura to yourself. Remove 1 additional condition if it is a Chaos Armor.