Guild Wars 2

My old Staff + Scepter/Focus, glamour, confusion build had little problem with thieves. I would just phase retreat, chaos armor, block, pull, and stack confusion on them until they killed thierself or ran away. I’ve since switched to a GS + Sword/Focus phantasm build and find I’ve an exceedingly tough time with melee thieves. In spvp I’ve 1700 toughness and in wvw I’ve 1800. I also typically run with decoy and defender, yet it seems to make little difference.

My question is mainly, is there a way to beat thieves without using a staff? Would swapping out my sword for a scepter help (to gain the block)? I recently dropped DE for more phantasmal power. Should I pick it back up again for a hybrid build? What about adding some daze and intterupt?

I tried running with a GS + Staff build in WvW. It was terrible and slow, so I’d rather not do that. I don’t feel I can do without the GS in WvW though, so I have to have that.

iDuelist would probably be the best to beat thieves, though iZerk could do the job also. Just stick with your clones, dodge/blurred frenzy when he’s in stealth and keep up your phantasm as much as possible.

If you have blind, just use #1 of sword once to remove it and spam your phantasm after.

I personally have not really any problem with thieves in 1v1’s as phantasm mesmer and I’m running with 1400 vit/thoughness.

There are some things that can help, but in the end I think it come down to what you specialist in. If you want to be fast and do speed roaming focus and or/ speed runes are needed, for this you give something up, dmg runes and pistol/torch/sword oh. You get stronger in speed but lack in some other area.

If you want to do superb range dmg in instances or wvwvw you specialize in this but give up defense versus fast moving melee.

I think that If you want to run a GS build in wvwvw you will have to accept that you have some weaknesses, even if you ofc get stronger in some areas. One weakness is that thief’s and even shatter memsers will focus on you as they benefit by stay close on you and go for you early in a group fight.

To counter this best way is accualy to play with other ppl, team up with some ppl and stay close to a guardian, if you get down have somone who can res you, tis while you kill ppl at range.

In 1 vs 1 ofc GS as phantasm is strong, but phatasm spec is faar from optimal in wvwvw and lack in many areas.

/Osicat

I run GS and Staff in WvW with Centaur Runes and Mirror (for heal). The build is 0/20/20/0/30 with shatters, +dmg/illusion, etc.

This is my favorite so far in WvW. The GS is great for the ranged battles and dolyak tagging. The Staff is great for melee battles and shatters.

The Centaur Runes are a must for this build and once you get over the loss of your favorite rune, you’ll be happy for the change. It’s nearly perma-swiftness, especially with some +boon food.

Mirror is really really fun in WvW. You can spam it and reflect those pesky riffle warrior adrenal skills, pistol thieves, longbow rapid fire rangers, etc.

EDIT: “Mirror” sorry not “Mirror Images”

What?

It’s very hard to best a good thief without a staff. With your setup you have to be very good at timing your blurred frenzy , dodge and stealth to counter thief’s backstab and shadow step. It’s hard to do because your timing have to be near perfect .
Edit. Have you tried using a pistol instead of focus? The duelist is great thief counter because he hit the thief as soon as he comes visible .

Offhand Sword and Pistol are both great vs thieves as they put pressure on them as soon as they become visible. The sword also offers a block while the pistol can negate a BP+HS stealth combo.

I really like the staff’s mobility and defense too much to give up on it but sword/sword as a second set offers a good amount of defense vs thieves with Blurred Frenzy and Illusionary Riposte.

I would suggest using air/centaur runes in WvW, though, as otherwise you will never be able to run from an incoming zerg.

Thanks for all the insight and suggestions so far. It sounds like Runes of the Centaur are something I should look into. I was hoping I could go with Melandru Runes. I’ll play round with it from that point in spvp to test these suggestions out. I mainly play wvw, so I playtest my builds in spvp before investing in them. I’ll start with GS + Staff and stick with a pure phantasm build rather than a hybrid. If that doesn’t work well I’ll probably try GS + Sword/Pistol.

I must say, it’ll be tough to lose all the reflection and utility I get with the focus. Therefore, I may initially try tweaking my current build first by swapping sword for scepter and changing up my utility spells a bit.

Other sources of reflection that don’t require focus (nor the focus “reflection” trait):

• Feedback (yeah I know, duh)
• Mirror (15s c/d heal with 2s reflect)

If you roll with Centaur then Mirror is almost mandatory given the cooldown. I thought I’d hate it but I love it. Just spam in a fight if you are not at 100% and taking range damage. It’s on such a short c/d you can use it a lot.

I prefer running Sw/P+Sc/Sw and that helps a lot against thieves thanks to blind and blocks (prevents them from C&D).

For D/P thieves you should have an easy time: when they stealth dodge randomly after a couple of seconds or activate blurred frenzy or decoy. Keep in mind that many thieves won’t wait the last second of their stealth to attack fearing the target will dodge. Time your dodge instead calculating the time it would take for the thief to get at your back/side. Phantasms should have an easy time against them since during every second they spend in stealth our phantasms are recharging their attacks. If you run shatter, when you dodge you should drop a clone, the thief will hit it with your attack gaining revealed and a 3 seconds window (since you’re playing wvw) to pop up the clone you lost and land your shatter. Some thieves use dodges to move faster towards the target so if you’re lucky they’ll be one dodge short. It could survive though since P/D usually have some decent defences. Watch out for blinds when you summon a phantasm.

Instagib builds are a bit more problematic since they jump at your back from nowhere and nuke you in a couple of seconds. Pop the stun breaker of choice as soon as you get petrified. I suggest not using blink since they can down you very fast, but something faster like decoy. The good news is, they won’t survive a shatter or few phantasm hits.

Also keep in mind that limiting thieves’ mobility makes their life a lot worse, so go with iZerker.

If you want to know how to kill thieves, you should go to our forums and ask. I am pretty sure we will be more than happy to come up with some methods with you.

Please do this for the thief community.

This build is what I eventually came up with. It has worked nicely in spvp and wvw so far. It stands up to thieves well, is mobile, durable, and does a ton of damage both for single target and aoe when needed.

Osicat.4139:

There are some things that can help, but in the end I think it come down to what you specialist in. If you want to be fast and do speed roaming focus and or/ speed runes are needed, for this you give something up, dmg runes and pistol/torch/sword oh. You get stronger in speed but lack in some other area.

If you want to do superb range dmg in instances or wvwvw you specialize in this but give up defense versus fast moving melee.

I think that If you want to run a GS build in wvwvw you will have to accept that you have some weaknesses, even if you ofc get stronger in some areas. One weakness is that thief’s and even shatter memsers will focus on you as they benefit by stay close on you and go for you early in a group fight.

To counter this best way is accualy to play with other ppl, team up with some ppl and stay close to a guardian, if you get down have somone who can res you, tis while you kill ppl at range.

In 1 vs 1 ofc GS as phantasm is strong, but phatasm spec is faar from optimal in wvwvw and lack in many areas.

/Osicat

yeah i agree osicat :P but youre missing a vital,

people sword pistol is best for thieves, keep up that invulnerability and stack iduelist, albeit a smart thief will terminate your stacks give them retaliation so he will take damage no matter what, try to outstealth him while your stacking your phantasms, when he’s weak he’ll refuge, switch to greatsword and 5# knockback and watch them flee, the GS 1200 range will make mincemeat of them xD i deep down honestly have no trouble with thieves but i did have to roll one to 80 to understand them :C

RedCobra.7693:

Osicat.4139:

There are some things that can help, but in the end I think it come down to what you specialist in. If you want to be fast and do speed roaming focus and or/ speed runes are needed, for this you give something up, dmg runes and pistol/torch/sword oh. You get stronger in speed but lack in some other area.

If you want to do superb range dmg in instances or wvwvw you specialize in this but give up defense versus fast moving melee.

I think that If you want to run a GS build in wvwvw you will have to accept that you have some weaknesses, even if you ofc get stronger in some areas. One weakness is that thief’s and even shatter memsers will focus on you as they benefit by stay close on you and go for you early in a group fight.

To counter this best way is accualy to play with other ppl, team up with some ppl and stay close to a guardian, if you get down have somone who can res you, tis while you kill ppl at range.

In 1 vs 1 ofc GS as phantasm is strong, but phatasm spec is faar from optimal in wvwvw and lack in many areas.

/Osicat

yeah i agree osicat :P but youre missing a vital,

people sword pistol is best for thieves, keep up that invulnerability and stack iduelist, albeit a smart thief will terminate your stacks give them retaliation so he will take damage no matter what, try to outstealth him while your stacking your phantasms, when he’s weak he’ll refuge, switch to greatsword and 5# knockback and watch them flee, the GS 1200 range will make mincemeat of them xD i deep down honestly have no trouble with thieves but i did have to roll one to 80 to understand them :C

Yeah, this is true, to a sertan lvl. In a 1 vs 1 planned duel, random open world or spvp duel its true. Problem is when it come to wvwvw roaming, you mabye in a smal team facing another team, or get into a 1 vs x or 2 vs x. Now the duelists/phantasm wont al be standing wating for the thief to unstealth tehy will attack clones ppl pets etc when he stealthed. The pistol stun will be harder to land and your GS will be a liability as the theif and probobly everyone else will focus you.

In this situation a staff with chaos storm, chaos armour, phase retreat and bouncing balls of boon/conditions will not only keep you alive but make a theif alot less interested in target you and he more likely go for some easier target in a x vs x situation. Add focus who pull him out of shadow refuge, Iwarden who clear conditions and stop bullets plus ofc 6 sec cripple and you be a nightmare for alot of players.

Still not saying GS is unviable, far from. Just taht you need to accept in a bigger scale than planned 1 vs 1 duels you will be a target and have problem keep mele from you. You cant se the phantasm as a reliable defense or dmg towards a single target, especialy if enemy team have stealth who go on and off plus AOE more often will take them down. Never seen a player have 3 phantasm up for a serious amount of time in a 5 vs 5 fightin wvwvw. I have thu seen theifs 2 theifs or 2 shatter mesmers in a 5 vs 5 pick the GS mesmer, staff ele or longbow ranger and focus burst him time after time untill hes down.

/Osicat

Osicat.4139:

In 1 vs 1 ofc GS as phantasm is strong, but phatasm spec is faar from optimal in wvwvw and lack in many areas.

/Osicat

I’m curious what you mean by saying they’re far from optimal in wvwvw?

I’ve been running a phantasm build as a roamer (very often solo, but not always) with a tremendous amount of success. I often run into various types of 1vX and do just fine, I’ve even won 1v6’s before (although the players were bad, this is very rare).

What do you see phantasm lacking in WvW?

What do you see phantasm lacking in WvW?

Mostly mobility. You can substitute for not using staff/focus by slotting centaur/air runes but your phantasms will stay slow. If your opponent decides to stay and fight: You most likely will win. If he runs: You don’t lose, but it’s not really satisfying either.

Also, it’s much harder to run from an incoming zerg, something that happens all the time tin WvW.

Yep. GS is a major liability in a 1vThief. I was roaming our borderlands and came across a high skilled, 25 stack thief. It was a fantastic battle that I lost. I got him down to 20%, post heal, but the GS held me back. The build worked well with every other engagement I’ve had that was remotely fair. I ’ve used it a lot in spvp and tpvp (solo join). It works nicely in both.

I simply can’t run wvw without a GS due to the awesome performance of the Berserker Phantasm and range. I know it’s bugged, but a buffed Berserker can do sooo much carnage to a zerg. I hit a group of 15 to 20 or so trying to get up to the third level of SM with the berserker doing roughly 60k+ damage with one spell.

I miss my Focus though… The Staff is such a one-trick-pony without condition damage whereas the Focus has amazing anti-zerg potential as well as other utility. Hmmm… I wonder if a GS + Scepter/Focus build could ever work in wvw and still do okay verse thieves. Perhaps something like this build possibly swapping to Runes of Air.

Iavra.8510:

What do you see phantasm lacking in WvW?

Mostly mobility. You can substitute for not using staff/focus by slotting centaur/air runes but your phantasms will stay slow. If your opponent decides to stay and fight: You most likely will win. If he runs: You don’t lose, but it’s not really satisfying either.

Also, it’s much harder to run from an incoming zerg, something that happens all the time tin WvW.

I can see how there might be less mobility than a build with the focus, but it never seems to be an issue for me. Between blink, phantasmal retreat, sword three, and the occasional portal I never really have a problem chasing down runners. There are exceptions of course, but in general I don’t have much of an issue.

As for running from a zerg, this is something I never have a problem with. We have so many tools to get away from zergs, and they’re certainly not exclusive to focus. Blink/Phase Retreat up terrain, portal, along with 2 stealths and 2 invulns, zergs are rarely a problem for me.

I’ve ran plenty with a focus, and the only thing I truly miss is the ability to pull people off cliffs/walls

Zumi,

Do you mind posting your build for us?

I really wanted to love the GS, I like the weapon both in skills and aesthetics. However, I stopped using it actually because of thieves.

It’s just really hard to stop a good thief with a GS. They’ll close the gap instantly and then you’re blowing long CD’s just to stay alive it seems. You have the knockback on number 5, but once that’s gone it’s really hard to kite them or protect yourself unlike staff.

It’s a shame because it has such fast clone generation, and the berserker can hit like a truck when it actually works. It’s just that the staff is so awesome at holding off any sort of melee class and is just too flexible for me to give up.

Jossa.8301:

Zumi,

Do you mind posting your build for us?

Not at all. I just threw it into an editor: http://tinyurl.com/lnkyrx4

Depending on the situation I sometimes switch out portal for another utility and/or the Inspiration trait for 20% Phantasm health.

Other than that I sometimes swap in a focus for swiftness when out of combat, and put the sword back on right away. I’ve gotten very good at it, so it doesn’t bother me as much as it used to

Thanks for your timely response.

I was looking to invest my traits in a build very similiar to this one.
How suitable would this be for pve/leveling?

Staff is just too good for me to give Up. Shatter/phantasm/hybrids of both. Doesn’t matter.

I can change armor/runes to make up for it, but I lose too much punch to make it really hurt.

Been really liking triple bounce condition damage build for roaming recently. 100% different play style but I am enjoying it.

Jericho.4521:

I really wanted to love the GS, I like the weapon both in skills and aesthetics. However, I stopped using it actually because of thieves.

It’s just really hard to stop a good thief with a GS. They’ll close the gap instantly and then you’re blowing long CD’s just to stay alive it seems. You have the knockback on number 5, but once that’s gone it’s really hard to kite them or protect yourself unlike staff.

It’s a shame because it has such fast clone generation, and the berserker can hit like a truck when it actually works. It’s just that the staff is so awesome at holding off any sort of melee class and is just too flexible for me to give up.

Yeah I agree. No matter how fun the GS is to use – and I find it a lot of fun – it just cannot compare defensively with the staff in cqc.
I prefer not to use it outside of pve tbh.

Jericho.4521:

I really wanted to love the GS, I like the weapon both in skills and aesthetics. However, I stopped using it actually because of thieves.

It’s just really hard to stop a good thief with a GS. They’ll close the gap instantly and then you’re blowing long CD’s just to stay alive it seems. You have the knockback on number 5, but once that’s gone it’s really hard to kite them or protect yourself unlike staff.

It’s a shame because it has such fast clone generation, and the berserker can hit like a truck when it actually works. It’s just that the staff is so awesome at holding off any sort of melee class and is just too flexible for me to give up.

I don’t get this.

You use greatsword to open pressure, summon the phantasm before they stealth/steal.

The moment they try to get in your grill with melee you switch to mainhand sword and punish them with a swap?blurred frenzy while your phantasmal berserker and swords man spike him.

If he tries to pull a burst combo on you you use on of your peels.

I run Full berserker, 30 in Inspiration, 20 duelist, 20 illusions. I run greatsword sword/sword.

You’ve got an 8 sec cd 2 sec distortion, vigor on crit, a knockback, and a 12 sec cd 3 second channel block. That means most of the time they stealth if you’re not dodging you are either blocking or immune. And in an emergency you can just decoy and heal safely.

I run mantra heal with harmonious mantras. That means I got a 10 sec cd heal, and I can recharge it twice safely with decoy or mass invisibility. With harmonious mantra I get a 3k heal on top of recharging my mantra, and because I remove conditions on healing I got 2 condi removals per heal.

I run Blink/Decoy and signet of Illusions. People will say you have no condi removal but you’ve got 2 every 10 seconds from your heal, and the only class that can engage you with conditions at 1200 range is a staff necromancer. With a greatsword you can just kite engineers and scepter necros and BM rangter without issue as all their weapons are 900 range.

Just keep an eye to dodge pulls like magnetic shield or dark path and you’ll be fine.

The fact is on berserker phantasm my berserker is hitting people for 5-6k, my blurred frenzy does 4-5k damage, and my swordsman is doing another 5-6k damage, and the swordsman hits every 3.5 seconds.

I can stall with my stealths and have enough phantasms so that if a thief unstealths he will immediately eat around 10k damage, and if they run gib builds they’re around 12-15k health with little toughness, so my phantasms will be removing 2/3 his health and if he tries to rush me I’ll just swap/blurred frenzy while my phantasms strike him again and he explodes.

I really don’t get people that complain about people getting in melee and killing them with the greatsword. Duh, don’t use the greatsword in melee unless it’s to use the knockback. Switch to sword/sword and you will hurt them just as badly as they hurt you.

juno.1840:

Other sources of reflection that don’t require focus (nor the focus “reflection” trait):

• Feedback (yeah I know, duh)
• Mirror (15s c/d heal with 2s reflect)

If you roll with Centaur then Mirror is almost mandatory given the cooldown. I thought I’d hate it but I love it. Just spam in a fight if you are not at 100% and taking range damage. It’s on such a short c/d you can use it a lot.

You forgot Mimic (blocks ALL attacks, and reflects ranged attacks after you get hit/reflect one projectile), and the trait that makes your diversion reflect skills.

Pistol is great in 1v1 situations against thieves but focus offers a lot of things too. You can pull them out of their stealth, you can put it on ground and run circles in it and when the thief comes to backstab, you just pull him aside, you can use it in combination with leap and get retal and other boons with combos etc. etc.

GS against thieves is not that good of an option to use because thieves can reach you fast.

I use Centaur runes and Staff/sword focus build with 0-20-20-0-30 and around 1250 toughness, 1000 vitality, 50% crit chance 87% crit damage. So far I have outrun every thief and every enemy group that tried to chase me, both on land and underwater (7/6 centaur + spear 4). With this build I have so far killed -if not all- most of the thieves I have encountered in 1v1 or even in some 1v2 situations.

The mobility you get from centaur runes is simply amazing, it is an important area to be considered as a potential investment.

When I fight thieves I usually have:

Decoy, Mirror Images, Blink skills accompanied by Sylvari elite skill Take Root, which spawns 5 seed turrets, I stay within the range of turrets, they shoot at thief right when he comes out of stealth.

I can even disengage pretty easily if I want to, by using decoy, blink, distortion (for invul).

I got mirror heal proccing speed buff every 15 seconds, got 95% swiftness uptime without even having to use focus for swiftness.

You also have to be careful in terms of timing the shatter of your clones. Mirror images skill helps with this as you can instantly create two clones right by your side and shatter them in an instant with a dodge. You can create and shatter 9-10 clones in a matter of few seconds this way, you just have to time it right.

I must say, it’ll be tough to lose all the reflection and utility I get with the focus. Therefore, I may initially try tweaking my current build first by swapping sword for scepter and changing up my utility spells a bit.

Mesmer has:
Masterful reflection Distortion gives reflection trait
Mirror Heal
Mimic
Feedback
Focus 4
Focus 5

as reflection skills, you can use mimic, feedback, mirror heal or distortion to reflect.

I use mirror heal and sometimes when in ranged heavy situations feedback and distortion reflection as means of reflecting projectiles. You are not bound to Warden’s Feedback for reflection by any means.

You may also try:

Sword/focus + Scepter/Pistol build with 0-20-20-20-5.

You get block-scepter 2, pistol 5 daze, pistol 4 phantasms in place, focus utilities, blurred frenzy.

I go decoy and use scepter 3 for conf. Scepter 2 when expecting a backstab, pistol 5 when thief comes out of stealth and I get away from him with a dodge, pistol 4 right after that. It is also a good build.

I don’t get this.

You use greatsword to open pressure, summon the phantasm before they stealth/steal.

The moment they try to get in your grill with melee you switch to mainhand sword and punish them with a swap?blurred frenzy while your phantasmal berserker and swords man spike him.

If he tries to pull a burst combo on you you use on of your peels.

I run Full berserker, 30 in Inspiration, 20 duelist, 20 illusions. I run greatsword sword/sword.

You’ve got an 8 sec cd 2 sec distortion, vigor on crit, a knockback, and a 12 sec cd 3 second channel block. That means most of the time they stealth if you’re not dodging you are either blocking or immune. And in an emergency you can just decoy and heal safely.

I run mantra heal with harmonious mantras. That means I got a 10 sec cd heal, and I can recharge it twice safely with decoy or mass invisibility. With harmonious mantra I get a 3k heal on top of recharging my mantra, and because I remove conditions on healing I got 2 condi removals per heal.

I run Blink/Decoy and signet of Illusions. People will say you have no condi removal but you’ve got 2 every 10 seconds from your heal, and the only class that can engage you with conditions at 1200 range is a staff necromancer. With a greatsword you can just kite engineers and scepter necros and BM rangter without issue as all their weapons are 900 range.

Just keep an eye to dodge pulls like magnetic shield or dark path and you’ll be fine.

The fact is on berserker phantasm my berserker is hitting people for 5-6k, my blurred frenzy does 4-5k damage, and my swordsman is doing another 5-6k damage, and the swordsman hits every 3.5 seconds.

I can stall with my stealths and have enough phantasms so that if a thief unstealths he will immediately eat around 10k damage, and if they run gib builds they’re around 12-15k health with little toughness, so my phantasms will be removing 2/3 his health and if he tries to rush me I’ll just swap/blurred frenzy while my phantasms strike him again and he explodes.

I really don’t get people that complain about people getting in melee and killing them with the greatsword. Duh, don’t use the greatsword in melee unless it’s to use the knockback. Switch to sword/sword and you will hurt them just as badly as they hurt you.

I have to agree on this.
I also run GS and Sw/Sw, just a different trait setup, and I’m having no problems with most Theives.
One block and blurred frenzy is almost enough to kill them at times.

I’m having no problems with most Theives.

I don’t think any of us are having problems with most thieves. It’s the pro thieves where all of the suggestions in this thread fall apart. I am also gs/staff and it will not work, you will just delay the stomp slightly. Best I can get is using scepter/sword sword/torch. as much block and stealth you can get and it will still be a nasty fight.

anyone who has fought bluehair on ebay knows what i am talking about.

GS is just fine for thieves. Using GS 5 on a Shadow Refuge will get you lots of kills (use blink to get into position).