Guild Wars 2

PvE Condition Damage

NO

hendo.1940:

PvE Condition Damage

NO

What colesy said.

You claim targets melt. I say you’re wrong. I’ve done this math once, I’ll do it again. Assuming 2100 condition damage, 100% burning and 25 stacks of bleed on a target (which you won’t ever possibly have ever ever), you’ll do 4540 damage per second.

You’ll do roughly 4500 damage per second in a standard power build autoattacking with 2 swordsmen up.

It’s literally not possible for whatever wacky condition damage build you come up with to outdamage power build. Not possible. This isn’t opinion, this is fact. Arguing with numbers is generally futile.

Edit: Just looked at your build. You only have 1771 condition damage, nowhere even close to the 2100 that I assumed you’d have…since that’s what you should have in a full conditions pve/wvw build. No chance of even coming close with that sort of stat setup.

Edit 2: Traveler’s runes in PvE. /facepalm

Skoteinos.4213:

Pyroathiest.4168:

/facepalm

..thanks for being polite.

Rune of the Traveler gives a faster gameplay plus bonus to all stats and condition duration.

Care to address the part of my post that math happened in?

Skoteinos.4213:

We’ll have to assume that your Swordmen wont die on cast or a while after,
for your math to work.
My conditions wont be removed in PvE..

You’re forgetting the fact that you also won’t have permanent burning (any burning at all actually in your build), and you’ll never have 25 stacks of bleed. My calculations were insanely biased in favor of the condition build.

Skoteinos.4213:

However, its a Fact that this game should be renamed to ZerkerWars 2..

Yes, this is true. I don’t personally think it’s a good thing, but it is a fact.

Skoteinos.4213:

I just made an effort to the opposite direction and I got a /facepalm, even though theorycrafting math does not always work in the field like on Paper. The same build played by different ppl may give odd results, especialy when we talk about Mesmers..

Math doesn’t lie. You made an effort, but unfortunately the game mechanics simply don’t support it. Can you kill things in PvE with this build? Sure, you can kill things in PvE with any build. Will you be even close to as effective as with a meta phantasm build? No, you won’t.

Skoteinos.4213:

This is an all around Great Mesmer Build, but go on..
tell me how much crap it is and how stupid I am to post this.
_______________
OMG that attitude of the elitist polymaths

You’re making claims that it’s a “great” build and that “targets melt” when using this, but the simple fact is that it’s not a great pve build. Targets won’t melt when using this as compared to normal builds. There’s nothing inherently wrong with trying to make condition builds work in PvE…but it’s not going to work, and you’re making claims that simply aren’t true and that you can’t back up.

You can complain all you want, but as I said before, arguing with math is generally a futile endeavor.

No one said the build is crap or that you’re stupid. People just insist on using condition builds in pve runs when it’s by far the inferior build. At least that’s all Pyro is trying to get across. Also people post pve condition builds here quite a bit and after a while you get tired of telling them that it’s not very good.

In WvW I think this build is fine. Actually a bit of a change from the regular PU condition build, to which I ask how well you survive without it since you seem to run full rabid instead of some dire.

Also, since you have traveler runes + the condi duration food having the condi duration maintenance oil is redundant and doesn’t do much for you after 50%. You’re better off with the tuning crystal imo.

Edit: I just noticed that this is a pve only build :X

I really need to pay more attention in the morning….but tuning crystal is still better btw.

I was about to type up a really long post rebutting OP’s “logic”, but I realized that trying to debate with someone who is so convinced of their own argument that they disregard all logic proposed to them is about as futile as debating against mathematics.

Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Sorry but condition dmg for pve is not good ofc it can work but power builds are much more effective and efficient esp in group play.

Skoteinos, your build would suit better in just wvw, leave the pve dungeon related content out.
As for arguing with pyro, don’t bother he’s just a egotistical toxic part of this community who is going to make you feel stupid regardless. You want to play what you want? Go right ahead, no one here is stopping you.

Far too much focus on DPS is being spread all over the place on these forums. Faster doesn’t always mean better, or even more fun.

You’ve been proven wrong by Pyro. The numbers never lie. This, as some people said, does work but there are far better things to use out there. Don’t be so hardheaded and accept that fact. Now I’m not saying that your build isn’t more fun to play than the meta phantasm s/s+s/f build (which I, personally, coming from condition builds enjoy a lot more), it is maybe, to you. That doesn’t have to be the case for other people.

RIBTL: It’s all subjective, use what you find fun.

SaintSnow.6593:

Skoteinos, your build would suit better in just wvw, leave the pve dungeon related content out.
As for arguing with pyro, don’t bother he’s just a egotistical toxic part of this community who is going to make you feel stupid regardless. You want to play what you want? Go right ahead, no one here is stopping you.

Toxic? Dude, he made some of the best and most popular mesmer builds, he’s a genius when it comes to mesmer in GW2. He’s helped the community out A LOT. That is the opposite from toxic..

Egotistical? He asked for an opinion, he got a very, very objective, honest one. Pyro has great logic and does the math on every problem. The math never lies!

I’m tired of honest people who are debating properly (argument to argument) being attached to bad traits. Honesty is a very important trait which a lot of people in this world lack, sadly. I think people who are like that should be respected immensely.
I’d rather have someone let me know know when I’m being annoying or stupid than for him to talk behind my back. I immensely respect people who tell me things they don’t like to my face instead of being kitty cats and keeping quiet ‘not to hurt my feelings’.

If anyone here is egotistical it’s the OP (no offense). He got a clear answer with a bullet proof argument and he keeps ignoring it and saying that everyone is wrong but him.

Have a wonderful day, happy gaming!

~Monns

Nobody is saying that you’re playing incorrectly or that you should change your build. You touched on this build being fun; if it’s fun for you, then you should absolutely play it.

However, there are many veteran mesmers on this forum. Many of us, including myself, have played since launch. We have all tried countless builds and we know what works and what doesn’t. Every few weeks or so, someone comes along claiming to have a revolutionary new build (which yours seems to suggest based on its title). I assure you that many of us have considered builds like yours, only to arrive at the conclusion that they are not superior from a numbers perspective. It is very off-putting to us when we see someone claiming to have a revolutionary new build and act like the idea has never dawned on us, when in fact we’ve considered and reject the same or similar builds.

Of course, as I stated above, you are entitled to play as you want. If you enjoy this build and find success with it, then please continue to use and enjoy it. I don’t think anyone here is saying otherwise. However, don’t try to tell us that this build is somehow vastly superior to the tried-and-true builds which have been tested both mathematically and “in situ,” so to speak.

I don’t complain nor arguing. Just cherish a great build which your math will never let you enjoy. Mesmer is more FUN played like this and not as a meta….

And what if people enjoy playing meta? What if I actually enjoy being able to deal damage? And not just spend a year against a normal trash mob because my condis take forever to kill it?

Most importantly, who are you to define what is fun?

Your build is not great. Conditions don’t work in PvE besides fringe exceptions (like … fotm 79 pre-fractured where glancing blows were so rampant a condi build was actually legit from what I’ve heard).

How wise is to isolate my Bleeding damage only vs a whole power meta build?
.. every time your Phantasms die much sooner than expected and you just wait for their recharge time to make yourself useful again, my Condition stacks Run on the target…

You use sharper images and greatsword, so you’re clearly going for a lot of bleeding damage. You’re not going to get burning, and the only confusion you get will be from you or your phantasms interacting with ethereal fields.

Far too much focus on DPS is being spread all over the place on these forums. Faster doesn’t always mean better, or even more fun.

If you argue your build is good for PvE and it deals low DPS, expect to be beaten down. A good build in PvE is one that maximises DPS and group support, even if you have to lose damage modifiers in favour of more group support (exhibit #1 – phalanx strength warrior build for fractals).

Secondly, don’t try defining fun for people. Fun for me is running strong builds, fun for Skoteinos is running bad builds.

Toxic? Dude, he made some of the best and most popular mesmer builds, he’s a genius when it comes to mesmer in GW2. He’s helped the community out A LOT. That is the opposite from toxic..
Egotistical? He asked for an opinion, he got a very, very objective, honest one. Pyro has great logic and does the math on every problem. The math never lies!

Such a genius that he used to try defending greatsword for PvE.

I can’t decide whether the Pyroatheist worship is either funny or sad.

hendo.1940:

Such a genius that he used to try defending greatsword for PvE.

Used to. I haven’t done that in a very long time.

Also out of curiosity, is phalanx warrior not a thing in normal dungeons? I was under the impression that upkeep of 25 party might easily was worth losing a couple damage modifiers regardless of the situation.

SaintSnow.6593:

Skoteinos, your build would suit better in just wvw, leave the pve dungeon related content out.
As for arguing with pyro, don’t bother he’s just a egotistical toxic part of this community who is going to make you feel stupid regardless. You want to play what you want? Go right ahead, no one here is stopping you.

So uh, in your first sentence you basically say that I’m right, and in your second sentence you say not to bother arguing with me because….I make you feel stupid? I’m a little curious of your thought process there.

oh boy another unique snowflake that thinks his garbage build is good even though it has been proven to be bad

Skoteinos.4213:

Pyroathiest.4168:

…but it’s not going to work, and you’re making claims that simply aren’t true and that you can’t back up.

You can complain all you want, but as I said before, arguing with math is generally a futile endeavor.

I don’t lie.
I don’t complain nor arguing. Just cherish a great build which your math will never let you enjoy. Mesmer is more FUN played like this and not as a meta….

How wise is to isolate my Bleeding damage only vs a whole power meta build?
.. every time your Phantasms die much sooner than expected and you just wait for their recharge time to make yourself useful again, my Condition stacks Run on the target…

..Is that the point? That I back up?.. ok
I back up. Case is closed for me.

If you play it because it’s fun, then that’s ok, no problem with that. I do agree ofc it’s inferior to power builds, but if you want fun and you like this cond build better then go ahead, play it. But I wouldn’t go and argue about how condition build can melt.
There are tons of videos proving what power builds can do and how fast they get the job done. However there are no such videos for condition builds, at least i haven’t seen any. If you want to prove how cond melts enemies, record a video where you melt veteran risen giant. Last time I checked record was about 12 seconds for mesmer (dps build obviously). If you’ll melt him down in 20sec I applaud you.

I don’t see anything great about mesmer condition OR power builds. If we cared about having the best dps we’d play another class.

Skoteinos.4213:

I see many thoughful, contemplative, genius, ruminative.. names, like there is only One man behind all that names, to conclude on ONE and same dead end MAX DPS cold blood killer Warrior-Mesmer meta Math build..
That’s not fun..

As we ALL told you. It’s not fun to you you can not define what is fun to other people as you =/= other people

Skoteinos.4213:

To be the only one, (with many names) saying THE truth about builds, when any other good attempt gets a /facepalm.

Are you so ignorant you can not see that it is a very good facepalm. A guy that never played GW2 would react that way. Traveler runes are USELESS for PvE, and you don’t need to be a genius to figure that out..

Skoteinos.4213:

You got to let your mind flow in the game…. and use the Fun like is meant to be. May be it’s all about technocracy and fantasy after all.
Your Warrior-Mesmer works numbers.

Again, not everyone will find fun what you find fun. Again, as you =/= other people

Skoteinos.4213:

I also have a great Healer Guard but, oh I forgot! All classes here are Zerker DPS ..or BAD.

Again, you’re such an ignorant.. I think every poster in this thread told you your build isn’t bad it just isn’t the most effective one.

Stop ignoring everyones posts and accept the fact that you are wrong about this build doing more damage than zerker build. It may be more fun, but that doesn’t make it a good build. For example, I enjoy the torment on shatter trait a lot, I find it fun, but other builds are more effective. fun =/= effectiveness
God people like you frustrate me so much sometimes!

Condis are bad for PvE on every class, thats all, they stack very poorly with other players(they hit cap quick on bosses etc). What is more travelers runes for PvE are underwhelmed by others it is simply bad choice. Sad thing is that for PvE zerk is the best option and without any changes from Anet, taking other stats is like, Don Quixote fighting with windmill, pointless.

So the videos is just to show you can reach +2000 with bleedings and confusion. Cause it’s what all it shows. Don’t know how you reflect all the fun you have (I have more fun keeping 3 phantasms alive and paying attention to reflections). Also, no show of how fast you can kill things.

Face it, you may have fun with conditions in PvE, but no way they’re better than direct damage builds in any case.

PD: Meta is meta not cause some jerks have said it, but cause it’s the best way to maximize your goal, regardless of how fun it is.

Ansau.7326:

So the videos is just to show you can reach +2000 with bleedings and confusion. Cause it’s what all it shows. Don’t know how you reflect all the fun you have (I have more fun keeping 3 phantasms alive and paying attention to reflections). Also, no show of how fast you can kill things.

Face it, you may have fun with conditions in PvE, but no way they’re better than direct damage builds in any case.

PD: Meta is meta not cause some jerks have said it, but cause it’s the best way to maximize your goal, regardless of how fun it is.

His build may not be meta but he seemed to do a better job than his party members in that video. Meta doesn’t mean anything if you’re laying dead on the floor.

Clownmug.8357:

Ansau.7326:

So the videos is just to show you can reach +2000 with bleedings and confusion. Cause it’s what all it shows. Don’t know how you reflect all the fun you have (I have more fun keeping 3 phantasms alive and paying attention to reflections). Also, no show of how fast you can kill things.

Face it, you may have fun with conditions in PvE, but no way they’re better than direct damage builds in any case.

PD: Meta is meta not cause some jerks have said it, but cause it’s the best way to maximize your goal, regardless of how fun it is.

His build may not be meta but he seemed to do a better job than his party members in that video. Meta doesn’t mean anything if you’re laying dead on the floor.

In PvE, everyone with 2660 armor and a ranged playstyle seems to do a better job than those who do all the nasty job meeling with zerker builds.

Ansau.7326:

In PvE, everyone with 2660 armor and a ranged playstyle seems to do a better job than those who do all the nasty job meeling with zerker builds.

Yes it’s very difficult to stack in one spot and push buttons, but if that’s their playstyle people should try to stay alive better unlike those in the video.

Anyways, I hope to see your WvW video soon Skoteinos.

Skoteinos.4213:

I also have a great Healer Guard but, oh I forgot! All classes here are Zerker DPS ..or BAD.

Full Celestial D/D Ele says hello!

Wranglerist.5489:

Skoteinos.4213:

I also have a great Healer Guard but, oh I forgot! All classes here are Zerker DPS ..or BAD.

Full Celestial D/D Ele says hello!

Keep in mind we’re discussing this in the context of PvE. You wouldn’t run a full celestial d/d ele in pve. You’d tend more towards staff or sc/d and always zerker.

I mostly play Open PvE and there are several situations where a condi build feels superior to a dps/phantasm build:

• Mesmer alone fighting a group of mobs
• Mesmer alone fighting a Vet/Champ/+adds
• Mesmer alone exploring a not-so-used-to area

A condi build is slower but much more secure regarding mobility and survivability. Killing things fast requires things being killable fast, but in GW2 the path to success primarily results from avoiding damage by dodging, kiting, and so on, especially in the situations mentioned above. The dps Mesmer has to rely on phants, but when his phants only live three seconds and because of their high cd, a dps Mesmer could easily face his limits soon. It’s like a dps Ele who can shine as long as he doesn’t get focused by mobs, but without an elemental or other player he’s busy with avoiding damage instead of dealing it.

A dps/phantasm build on the other side is superior when one can be sure to not get the aggro or the chance for it is very low – so everytime there are one or more players joining the fight.

In general when I eg. kite a champ down, for about 90% of the time I have the aggro, being chased by the champ, who ignores my clones. I usually use the staff when strafing and staff clones, from time to time mixed with a warlock (who usually gets killed within seconds). If I summon only phants instead it’s more likely that I lose the aggro and that they will be destroyed as fast as possible. But as soon as another player joins the battle and lands one hit on the champ in 9 of 10 cases I lose the aggro instantly and the other player gets it, no matter whether champ HP is at 90% or 10% and I’m able to summon two or three warlocks that stay alive until the fight ends.

So regarding aggro it seems that mobs behave like this:

• Mesmer + Clones: attack the Mesmer
• Mesmer + Phants: attack the Phants
• Mesmer + Clones/Phants: attack the Phants, then the Mesmer
• Mesmer + Clones/Phants + other player: attack the other player

The last Mesmer I leveled I tried a hybrid build with, which seemed to work in most zones, but when I went into the higher level zones like Orr it felt weaker compaired to a pure one, so I rebuilt for condi again.

Although we have the Megaserver now, there are maps and situations where one easily could be alone and no other player in range. Eg. last saturday night somehow the queensdale train disappeared, but the map was still active, with two players left, a Thief and me. We continued the “train” for a while until we left the map too, but we killed all the champs in two, it was fun and my condi build allowed to both doing some dps with phants as long as the Thief had the aggro or kite them with clones.

But I wished that there was an easy and fast way to save and swap builds by just one click. Currently it takes quite some time to swap from condi to dps and back including equipment and weapon setup, meanwhile I keep the condi build most of the time.