Guild Wars 2

i highly doubt it.

I main a thief, but alt on a mesmer.

the thing i find most comforting is that the amount of bad thieves that will come out of this is going to be too darn high and will be a nice, easy… obvious kill.

in theory, we should have nothing to worry about. at all.

Good thieves however…

Even a Thief will have to worry about other thieves, mesmers can still deal mega damage and like i said on another post.

the mes+thief pain train is gonna be a thing again.

And that makes me happy.

I think people underestimate the current mesmer. I am a thief main since 3 years and fought many great mesmers, some of them were playing in a few esl tournaments.
With the elite spec of mesmer, I think the thief buffs aren’t as ‘OP’ as people say.
You still have alicrity to reduce your cooldowns of your offensive/defensive skills, we have a rng based reset ;p

I mean it was about time thief saw some light again, but people were obviosuly going to cry about it, because this meta made people really lazy to think.

I’m just in general happy that the game picks up a faster meta again. Everything is better than the current meta.

alicatrawz.9567:

i highly doubt it.

I main a thief, but alt on a mesmer.

the thing i find most comforting is that the amount of bad thieves that will come out of this is going to be too darn high and will be a nice, easy… obvious kill.

in theory, we should have nothing to worry about. at all.

Good thieves however…

Even a Thief will have to worry about other thieves, mesmers can still deal mega damage and like i said on another post.

the mes+thief pain train is gonna be a thing again.

And that makes me happy.

A thief that loses to a shatter mesmer is terrible. Period. Sorry.

Quadox.7834:

alicatrawz.9567:

i highly doubt it.

I main a thief, but alt on a mesmer.

the thing i find most comforting is that the amount of bad thieves that will come out of this is going to be too darn high and will be a nice, easy… obvious kill.

in theory, we should have nothing to worry about. at all.

Good thieves however…

Even a Thief will have to worry about other thieves, mesmers can still deal mega damage and like i said on another post.

the mes+thief pain train is gonna be a thing again.

And that makes me happy.

A thief that loses to a shatter mesmer is terrible. Period. Sorry.

Thief’s defense is just capable of neutralizing half of our damage output simply because we either require a target or it makes our clones stand as still as frozen statue, while his stealth outlast ours.
I’m not saying we will be necessarily fodder, but claiming that thief dying to shatter is terrible while they are our natural counter… well I can’t agree.

+1 for Yanim!

Mesmers are getting nerfed rather hard, while at the same time Thieves are getting significant boosts.

This sort of “balancing” is what has Mesmers correctly worried about going back to the days where for MONTHS a thief wedging his #2 key with a coin and going AFK will once again enjoy a 75% victory rate over a Mesmers.

This is not intended as a cry about the fact that Thieves are getting much needed boosts, but rather as a wholly justified complaint that we’re getting severely nerfed at the very same time. This is bound to end very poorly for Mesmers, and has a strong stench of us returning back to the days of being Thief fodder. (And that among 2-3 other professions that we’re already mostly fodder too, if we didn’t have all that bunkering they’re deliberately trying to destroy right now.)

Mesmer is still good, only a bad player who doesn’t understand them would think they are gonna be terrible once that patch hits. And what Lythoc says is spot on.

Pepsi.8907:

Quadox.7834:

alicatrawz.9567:

i highly doubt it.

I main a thief, but alt on a mesmer.

the thing i find most comforting is that the amount of bad thieves that will come out of this is going to be too darn high and will be a nice, easy… obvious kill.

in theory, we should have nothing to worry about. at all.

Good thieves however…

Even a Thief will have to worry about other thieves, mesmers can still deal mega damage and like i said on another post.

the mes+thief pain train is gonna be a thing again.

And that makes me happy.

A thief that loses to a shatter mesmer is terrible. Period. Sorry.

Thief’s defense is just capable of neutralizing half of our damage output simply because we either require a target or it makes our clones stand as still as frozen statue, while his stealth outlast ours.
I’m not saying we will be necessarily fodder, but claiming that thief dying to shatter is terrible while they are our natural counter… well I can’t agree.

pepsi… you do realize that a thief’s stealth is SUPPOSED TO OUTLAST A MESMERS STEALTH!! stealthing is a big part of thief you aren’t supposed to outstealth them! All this QQing coming for mesmers complaining about thief are people who obviously don’t understand mesmer and/or thief

Seems like Chaos Armor procced some blindness on you, cause you kinda missed Pepsis point. Good thing they’ll nerf that too.

I’m not sure if we can proclaim differences just yet.

sPvP is moving glassier which is amazing for mesmers as a whole. Squishier targets = shatter is better overall = mesmer does better against more classes. If the thief counters the mesmer, it’s fine, so long as the mesmer can do well for itself. The DH aggressively counters the thief (though I am a bit worried about BV changes potentially countering DH a little bit too much due to their low health pool and dependency on Aegis), and the signet necro countered the d/d celestial ele. I think it’s safe to say signet necro and DH are not blatantly overpowered as much as say the current tank mesmer and d/d celestial ele. If the thief counters the mesmer in a similar fashion, we’ll see some tweaking into the future to maybe level the playing field a little, but overall, the concept of counters is fair so long as the class being countered has a definitive place and reasonable level of power.

The mesmer also has gotten buffed in its core traits substantially since the period where thief did aggressively counter the mesmer, and the Chronomancer has lots of nice tools to help out with this as well in the hands of a good player. Self-shatter is huge; even if the thief is stealthed and you can’t generate substantial clones or target and shatter him 100-0, baseline self-shatter allows a mesmer to slip in for a few thousand damage, and overall trait and weapon improvements since might allow the mesmer a much better fighting chance than before. The thief really hasn’t been buffed in its core since, either, so it’s not like the bonuses are trading off of each other.

We’ll have to see what else comes in the notes. I don’t think it’s really going to be that bad or as bad as people are freaking out about. The thief is getting a big boost (imho the damage increases are overkill as to what they really needed to be, and the problems with the thief lie in much different places than where they are addressing them). It’ll definitely be a different game, but I don’t think it’s fair to proclaim the mesmer is just going to be made useless as a consequence. It’s too early for that from the changes we know about, and the meta hasn’t gotten time to adjust.

Isn’t it enough that theives constantly get Anet to listen to their whining and destroy any and all unique or fun builds/metas in this game across all modes just so they can run around hot join spamming 2, do they really have to infest our forums with their kitten as well?

So to summarise:

Mesmer is going to be running decoy, blink, portal again. MoD is what you really need to deal with a thief, but portal is the requirement for serious entry into pvp XD

So we have been here before! :D

Again we don’t have the full of it but the thief counter to mesmer died on June 23rd.

We are honestly going to have to see how this meta pans out because harder hitting auto’s aren’t causing me to kitten a brick.

As someone who plays both Thief and Mesmer regularly now, the buffs to Thief are particularly good against Chrono. Fleet Shadows pretty much protects you from succumbing to an initial burst from the Chrono, as Chrono burst damage is very multi-part, so it’s guaranteed that the trait will proc in most scenarios – will anyone actually take Acrobatics though still? With the Black Powder after-cast reduction a Mesmer will have a tougher time reactively interrupting HS+BP combo and probably won’t be able to prevent Bounding Dodge combo at all now. Basilisk Venom is pretty much going to be a free interrupt + back stab + Impacting Disruption on a shield Mesmer (I shall enjoy playing around with this). Chrono already has a rough time against dagger cleave – going to be hell for them with that buff.

I don’t think it’s the end of the world and it will be nice to have my Daredevil empowered in all game modes. But yes, it will be quite a bit easier to kill Chrono now. I think we might see some s+d Thief return too with that dps increase to sword, which is still a difficult thing for dps Mes to deal with.

Simonoly.4352:

As someone who plays both Thief and Mesmer regularly now, the buffs to Thief are particularly good against Chrono. Fleet Shadows pretty much protects you from succumbing to an initial burst from the Chrono, as Chrono burst damage is very multi-part, so it’s guaranteed that the trait will proc in most scenarios – will anyone actually take Acrobatics though still? With the Black Powder after-cast reduction a Mesmer will have a tougher time reactively interrupting HS+BP combo and probably won’t be able to prevent Bounding Dodge combo at all now. Basilisk Venom is pretty much going to be a free interrupt + back stab + Impacting Disruption on a shield Mesmer (I shall enjoy playing around with this). Chrono already has a rough time against dagger cleave – going to be hell for them with that buff.

I don’t think it’s the end of the world and it will be nice to have my Daredevil empowered in all game modes. But yes, it will be quite a bit easier to kill Chrono now. I think we might see some s+d Thief return too with that dps increase to sword, which is still a difficult thing for dps Mes to deal with.

At least one thief player knows the real deal, and not try to sugar-coat this nerf incoming to Mesmer.

I don’t recall any threads on the thief boards asking for buffs to BP’s casting animations or huge increases to AA damage, though. Frankly, most thieves just want to get meaningful hits in on non-dominant weapons or be able to sustain better in what was a bunker-heavy meta. The changes really don’t do anything to address these issues. I feel as though the changes to BV and the passive invuln in Acro were half-baked attempts to resolve this, although again, these implementations doesn’t solve as many problems as they needs to.

A lot of the changes seem completely arbitrary for PvP and seem mostly PvE/Raid-driven, with PvP as a backdrop excuse to blanket the blame for changing PvE metas.

This is same for dh vs thief, dh counters thieves.

This game is about counters, thieves always countered mes from the very beginning of the game.

While I agree with deceiver x on a few of his points I don’t think they needed to nerf mesmer this hard to get rid of bunker Mesmer. WoP was nerfed because creatively bypassing the green circles in vale guardian is something ANet don’t want. Alacrity I could kinda see coming too.

The guardian players I spoke to were very worried about BV being unblockable and thus the attack. We will have to see how it plays out but if thief proves to be able to handle DH well enough and it can eat mesmer and other zerker enemies for breakfast then we’re going to have as bad a meta as this as no-one likes being a liability.

Additionally I already worked out the average damage for a dagger full auto to be around 6k with fury, 5k without with a bit of variance (if last 2 don’t crit it’s nearer 3-4K) and that shadow shot can do some pretty nice damage. I really think the thief changes are not in the right direction removing some counter play to black powder, buffing autos and now an invuln on CC. If they announce old FG is coming back I won’t bother with anything but PvE on any class.

We’ll have to see after the full notes are released. Too early to say we’ll be RIP, irrelevant, whatever. Very possible we don’t get anything of real substance, but should wait for the verdict until then.

Again, whether or not they over-nerfed the mesmer, I don’t know, and I honestly think it’s too early to tell. Even small changes to big skills can have profound impacts, and ANet hasn’t given us the full list of changes yet, and we really don’t know where the meta is headed until people start winning with specific builds or classes to a consistent degree. Remember when D/D thief was “the big scare”? It really hasn’t changed much, and the numbers tweaks haven’t been substantial enough to cause it to phase out; it’s the design of the class within the confines of how people are playing that has.

My mesmer play is rather infrequent and very far from the apex of my own personal skill and knowledge compared to other classes. I know the class and its skills and combos, but can’t play it to magnificent skill levels. I’m going by what I foresee happening from analysis of game design.

Dagger autos already had very high damage coefficients. Actually, the MH sword on the thief was already quite amazing, and only wasn’t used in speed clears because of backstab for > 50% and HS spam for < 50%. Autos alone, the sword is extremely devastating; I’ve personally crit 10k on the final hit in WvW. My AA in WvW with MH dagger depending on might already gets to 6k+ usually. Frankly, it’s not the AA damage but the skills that needed genuine improvement, particularly on other weapon sets. Dancing Dagger does half the damage of thief MH dagger’s slowest AA. Death Blossom is pitiful for anything but condi 3spam thief. Body Shot is pretty much the worst skill in the game. CnD has reliability problems. Pistol Whip’s pre-cast is horribly long, and even Larcenous Strike has a pretty awful casting animation.

It’s for this reason I think they buffed/nerfed for PvE and not PvP at all. Rev sword AA is pretty much the same strength as thief’s is now. It’s just the permanent quickness that got out of control. Since the thief brings no utility to PvE, they realized it needed to deal better damage, so they nerfed Rev sword and buffed thief AA to keep it in line. Of course, this has very big effects on PvP and didn’t resolve the fundamental issues with the class causing it to have problems to begin with.

skcamow.3527:

We’ll have to see after the full notes are released. Too early to say we’ll be RIP, irrelevant, whatever. Very possible we don’t get anything of real substance, but should wait for the verdict until then.

When the developers first leaked about scepter rework as a buff to Mesmer and it turns out to be a 5% speed increase on an already bad weapon, you know the developers hates the class and it is doomed.

I’ve said it before but the fact that the info they released to get people hyped for the next patch is a complete gutting of the Chrono, with only a buff so small it might as well not exist to a bad trait for a bad weapon, it tell you everything you need to know about their attitude to the class.

Their won’t be any major buffs to Mesmer in the final patch.

spartan.9421:

Mesmer is still good, only a bad player who doesn’t understand them would think they are gonna be terrible once that patch hits. And what Lythoc says is spot on.

Pepsi.8907:

Quadox.7834:

alicatrawz.9567:

i highly doubt it.

I main a thief, but alt on a mesmer.

the thing i find most comforting is that the amount of bad thieves that will come out of this is going to be too darn high and will be a nice, easy… obvious kill.

in theory, we should have nothing to worry about. at all.

Good thieves however…

Even a Thief will have to worry about other thieves, mesmers can still deal mega damage and like i said on another post.

the mes+thief pain train is gonna be a thing again.

And that makes me happy.

A thief that loses to a shatter mesmer is terrible. Period. Sorry.

Thief’s defense is just capable of neutralizing half of our damage output simply because we either require a target or it makes our clones stand as still as frozen statue, while his stealth outlast ours.
I’m not saying we will be necessarily fodder, but claiming that thief dying to shatter is terrible while they are our natural counter… well I can’t agree.

pepsi… you do realize that a thief’s stealth is SUPPOSED TO OUTLAST A MESMERS STEALTH!! stealthing is a big part of thief you aren’t supposed to outstealth them! All this QQing coming for mesmers complaining about thief are people who obviously don’t understand mesmer and/or thief

Spartan… you do realize you failed to COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND MY POST??
See, I can use the same writing format, how nice

Tell me one thing? Where did you feel like I QQed? Because my QQ doesn’t look like this.
You can even go back to my post history, I QQed about burning, Anet’s balancing and the league system, most of all (maybe a few more other thing).
My QQ is emotional whining that I usually do moments after being wiped by what I QQed about and left with a strong feeling of unfairness and the need to vent my anger, which I do on the forums…

This isn’t QQ, this is personal observation that I’ll be so kind as to put in other words just for you.
I also realizes that I simply reinforced “thief shouldn’t die to shatter”.
Well, while I can agree that thief is the A+ predator of mesmer, I should also add that a thief taken by surprise will die equally fast by a mesmer than a mesmer taken by surprise by a thief.
The first to spot the other is the first to kill. A shatter in the face really doesn’t feel good, despite MB’s nerf.

Anyway, Spartan, let me clarify everything for you since you missed my point on every possible angle:
I never said that thief’s stealth wasn’t supposed to outlast mesmer’s. I simply pointed out that thief is a natural predator to mesmer because his ability to stealth for longer than us (his main defense ability) neutralized most of our offensive abilities, whereas ours own def didn’t cancel his at the same point because it’s not nearly as reliable on targeting and visible target, while our own stealth is not as efficient as theirs, which means that we can’t outplay them on the same field.
Moreover, thief and mesmer grossly fill the same role : +1 fighter/roamer.
Yet, despite our own portal, thief can do this job better and more efficiently than mesmer can, primarily because his mobility excess that of mesmer, just like his capability to engage/disengage fight at will is equal or greater than that of mesmer despite the latter own stealth, teleports and C.C skills.

So yeah, I’d appreciate you not falling into personal retaliation simply because you feel the need to jump at anyone’s throat who dare imply any single form of Thief vs. Mesmer while not even bothering to actually comprehend or even read said post properly.
The only thing you probably saw during your sifting was: “while his stealth outlast ours.” and immediately came to a conclusion that I was a miserable keyboard warrior who doesn’t know jack kitten about both class she complained about
Sorry, I just have 3k hours on my mesmer and while my own knowledge of thief is slightly lacking on a balance level, I know enough to know basic things such as “he’s the annoying bugger who use stealth as both offense and defense. He’s also the annoying class that dare outpe rform mesmer on its roaming class while being its natural predator due to his defense canceling our own offense and making us incredibly vulnerable all the while to his attack.”
I’ll also put /s just to make sure you don’t take my last 4 lines literally and only focus on this to lash at me again on my miscomprehension of two classes and apparent QQing.
Have a nice day, I hope I made my lol QQ clear enough

Gonna have to slightly correct you Deceiver X, Rev auto does more damage because of the rift explosion. On 3 targets it creates a rift on all 3 and the rift damages all three of the targets per rift. Put simply you can count it as a 0.9 coefficient tbh on 3 targets and 0.6 on 2 targets.

I don’t understand what ANet is doing, they don’t seem to understand that no-one brings a thief in PvE not because of the damage but because it brings 0 utility outside of stealth that others can’t do better.

Who knows, maybe to “fix” it they will make thief a classic paladin to tank and take aggro and the first minor gives it 10k HP like they did to make rangers healers lol.

The thief has more baseline damage modifiers than the revenant, apharma. Devastation and Critical Strikes offset each other. DA and Trickery favors the thief’s damage substantially, or even more extreme, DA and DD as additional trait lines. I think the only real advantage is the Revenant’s consistency with the innate 100% crit rate which the thief simply can’t achieve.

Again, since the thief only has damage, ANet’s philosophy, mentioned in the live stream is that they want that damage to be very potent and what the class can excel at. Is this poor design? Yes. But so was pigeon-holing the thief, and so was extending ridiculous utility to classes and builds that frankly didn’t need it otherwise and giving no similar alternatives to other classes, and then balancing the new content around such design. PvE will always have a meta leaving out a class or group of classes. Mesmer was out before, and thief is out now. It’s either optimal or it isn’t, and nothing except excluding more classes is going to change that.

As a side-note, they’re also buffing the staff for the thief in terms of its damage, which is also already the thief’s best DPS tool. Again, the ideology behind these changes seems to stem entirely from PvE balance.

Why they’re bringing these balance decisions into the game under the declaration of PvP balance makes no sense.

spartan.9421:

Mesmer is still good, only a bad player who doesn’t understand them would think they are gonna be terrible once that patch hits. And what Lythoc says is spot on.

Pepsi.8907:

Quadox.7834:

alicatrawz.9567:

i highly doubt it.

I main a thief, but alt on a mesmer.

the thing i find most comforting is that the amount of bad thieves that will come out of this is going to be too darn high and will be a nice, easy… obvious kill.

in theory, we should have nothing to worry about. at all.

Good thieves however…

Even a Thief will have to worry about other thieves, mesmers can still deal mega damage and like i said on another post.

the mes+thief pain train is gonna be a thing again.

And that makes me happy.

A thief that loses to a shatter mesmer is terrible. Period. Sorry.

Thief’s defense is just capable of neutralizing half of our damage output simply because we either require a target or it makes our clones stand as still as frozen statue, while his stealth outlast ours.
I’m not saying we will be necessarily fodder, but claiming that thief dying to shatter is terrible while they are our natural counter… well I can’t agree.

pepsi… you do realize that a thief’s stealth is SUPPOSED TO OUTLAST A MESMERS STEALTH!! stealthing is a big part of thief you aren’t supposed to outstealth them! All this QQing coming for mesmers complaining about thief are people who obviously don’t understand mesmer and/or thief

Top mesmers are apparently “bad players who don’t understand them [Mesmers]”

IchigoHatake.5098:

This is same for dh vs thief, dh counters thieves.

This game is about counters, thieves always countered mes from the very beginning of the game.

Maybe you didn’t play before June 23rd, but what you need to realize is that there is a difference between a dpsguard countering a thief and a theif countering a mesmer. Namely, the daredevil can very easily run from the dragonhunter, and if the dragonhunter chooses to chase the thief, the dragonhunter’s team will fall behind due to him being slower. Pre 23rd june mesmer was in such a position that is got opened on basically anywhere by thief with no chance to run away- except for using portal. Therfore, the thief forced portal or a dead mesmer very easily. So whilst a dpsguard might counter a daredevil in a 1v1 scenario, it works differently in practice.

Quadox.7834:

spartan.9421:

Mesmer is still good, only a bad player who doesn’t understand them would think they are gonna be terrible once that patch hits. And what Lythoc says is spot on.

Pepsi.8907:

Quadox.7834:

alicatrawz.9567:

i highly doubt it.

I main a thief, but alt on a mesmer.

the thing i find most comforting is that the amount of bad thieves that will come out of this is going to be too darn high and will be a nice, easy… obvious kill.

in theory, we should have nothing to worry about. at all.

Good thieves however…

Even a Thief will have to worry about other thieves, mesmers can still deal mega damage and like i said on another post.

the mes+thief pain train is gonna be a thing again.

And that makes me happy.

A thief that loses to a shatter mesmer is terrible. Period. Sorry.

Thief’s defense is just capable of neutralizing half of our damage output simply because we either require a target or it makes our clones stand as still as frozen statue, while his stealth outlast ours.
I’m not saying we will be necessarily fodder, but claiming that thief dying to shatter is terrible while they are our natural counter… well I can’t agree.

pepsi… you do realize that a thief’s stealth is SUPPOSED TO OUTLAST A MESMERS STEALTH!! stealthing is a big part of thief you aren’t supposed to outstealth them! All this QQing coming for mesmers complaining about thief are people who obviously don’t understand mesmer and/or thief

Top mesmers are apparently “bad players who don’t understand them [Mesmers]”

I dont understand Spartan’s comment, clearly he doesnt play Mesmers nor pay attention to what happened in the meta before HOT release. Supcutie and few other top mesmers have pointed out how thief’s mechanics hard counter the Mesmer’s mechanics, both class of same skill level in an encounter, thief have significant win probability simply due to that advantage.

Calling us bad players based on given info with past history between to two classes is simply being ignorant.