Guild Wars 2

My two biggest issues with mesmer;
- When not killed, illusions self-destruct when their target dies.
This becomes an issue when fighting a group of more foes, or more foes short after each other. High chance u have to wait for illusion summoning skills to recharge.
- When leveling my mesmer, i depended deeply on illusions. Therefore i never used or understood the Shatter mechanism. I simply could not afford to purposely destroy my illusions.

A few ideas, wich involve separation of Clones and Phantasms;

Idea 1:
Phantasm, when not killed, self-destruct when Combat Mode ends.
Clones, when not killed, will still self-destruct when their target dies.

Idea2:
Remove Phantasms from the Shatter mechanism.
Using a Shatter skill only Shatters Clones.
Traits related to Shattering only effects Clones.
In the UI, the 3 circles left of the Shatter skills (icons) is only for Clones.
This means max 3 Clones plus Phantasms from how many Phantasm skills can be equipped.

Some other changes due to idea 1 and 2:
I think this already is, but when having max amount of illusions, creating a new clone can only replace another clone, not a phantasm.

When having a certain Phantasm active, creating a new same one will replace the active one.
This means only 1 of each specific Phantasm can be active (at the same time).

Also, consider these base ideas. Fine tuning (rebalancing other details) may be required).
I have no idea how this effects WvW or PvP, i only play PvE.
So, feedback in regards to WvW or PvP is welcome.

A simple fix:

Clones and Phantoms die when they are either killed due to damage, replaced due to having 2-3 and using Mirror Images or another clone/phantom creator (like Scepter #1) or they are shattered.

Done, nothing else needs to be done. No balance changes or anything because 90% of the time after combat the clones and phantoms are nearly dead already this mans you can go right into combat and open up with a shatter if you like.

Phantasm and clones are only created by targeting a foe. Therefore there is no reason for them to stay on the field after your foe does. To suggest otherwise is pointless. If you are seriously having trouble keeping illusions on the field because they poof after your foe dies, you simply need to learn to play the class better. With AoE illusions (i.e. iBeserker), you can cast one and then target another foe to cast your second one. Clones are a dime a dozen and are constantly on the field (especially if you are using the Deceptive Evasion trait.

When I am PvEing, I never have any cool down problems with keeping my illusions going. Are you utilizing both weapon sets?

Leave it as is it currently. Clones can be spammed and most phantasms got decent cds, too. Just don’t shatter when you don’t want your phantasms to die.

Nordic Natedog.4360:

Phantasm and clones are only created by targeting a foe. Therefore there is no reason for them to stay on the field after your foe does. To suggest otherwise is pointless. If you are seriously having trouble keeping illusions on the field because they poof after your foe dies, you simply need to learn to play the class better. With AoE illusions (i.e. iBeserker), you can cast one and then target another foe to cast your second one. Clones are a dime a dozen and are constantly on the field (especially if you are using the Deceptive Evasion trait.

When I am PvEing, I never have any cool down problems with keeping my illusions going. Are you utilizing both weapon sets?

That is part of the issue with the class, its like out downstate its USELESS against ANY class that has access to stealth as they all know we cant do ANYTHING if we have no one to target

To do pretty much anything we need a target, i think some of them would be better if they were Ground target-able

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Nordic Natedog.4360:

Phantasm and clones are only created by targeting a foe. Therefore there is no reason for them to stay on the field after your foe does. To suggest otherwise is pointless. If you are seriously having trouble keeping illusions on the field because they poof after your foe dies, you simply need to learn to play the class better. With AoE illusions (i.e. iBeserker), you can cast one and then target another foe to cast your second one. Clones are a dime a dozen and are constantly on the field (especially if you are using the Deceptive Evasion trait.

When I am PvEing, I never have any cool down problems with keeping my illusions going. Are you utilizing both weapon sets?

That is part of the issue with the class, its like out downstate its USELESS against ANY class that has access to stealth as they all know we cant do ANYTHING if we have no one to target

To do pretty much anything we need a target, i think some of them would be better if they were Ground target-able

Actually our class is VERY strong against ANY stealth class. This is because our illusions won’t lose aggro on stealthed opponents. In fact, phantasm builds are the best 1v1 builds there is and it’s not even a debate.

I hardly ever lose to thieves (the stealthiest of all classes). At worst it will be a situation where I or he walks away from the fight in a stalemate (if he’s a perma-stealth build). It is so easy to cast a clone while he’s not stealthed. Simply target and press a skill. You can also use stuns and dazes to further lock him down. Bait him into attacking you just to use a block like scepter #2 (which I am loving) or sword #4. You don’t even have to target him if you have deceptive evasion traited. Just do a dodge roll and a clone will spawn aggroed to him (provided there aren’t other targets nearby).

There is very few things you can do in the game on any profession that doesn’t require targeting your foe.

Nordic Natedog.4360:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Nordic Natedog.4360:

Phantasm and clones are only created by targeting a foe. Therefore there is no reason for them to stay on the field after your foe does. To suggest otherwise is pointless. If you are seriously having trouble keeping illusions on the field because they poof after your foe dies, you simply need to learn to play the class better. With AoE illusions (i.e. iBeserker), you can cast one and then target another foe to cast your second one. Clones are a dime a dozen and are constantly on the field (especially if you are using the Deceptive Evasion trait.

When I am PvEing, I never have any cool down problems with keeping my illusions going. Are you utilizing both weapon sets?

That is part of the issue with the class, its like out downstate its USELESS against ANY class that has access to stealth as they all know we cant do ANYTHING if we have no one to target

To do pretty much anything we need a target, i think some of them would be better if they were Ground target-able

Actually our class is VERY strong against ANY stealth class. This is because our illusions won’t lose aggro on stealthed opponents. In fact, phantasm builds are the best 1v1 builds there is and it’s not even a debate.

I hardly ever lose to thieves (the stealthiest of all classes). At worst it will be a situation where I or he walks away from the fight in a stalemate (if he’s a perma-stealth build). It is so easy to cast a clone while he’s not stealthed. Simply target and press a skill. You can also use stuns and dazes to further lock him down. Bait him into attacking you just to use a block like scepter #2 (which I am loving) or sword #4. You don’t even have to target him if you have deceptive evasion traited. Just do a dodge roll and a clone will spawn aggroed to him (provided there aren’t other targets nearby).

There is very few things you can do in the game on any profession that doesn’t require targeting your foe.

The problem being that they can target us without having to worry about our clones thanks to “Target” function. So even if we get clones out they have nothing to fear. I have watched a Thief 1 Vs 2 a duo of Mesmers

Then you get to the fact that not everyone wants to run a Phantasm build. A thief can steay stealth and just come in for the kill with pretty much ease due to the problems that come with the stealth they have.

Then you get the ones who have insane boons as well as all the damage and stealth which was the one that killed the 2 mesmers, he had like 6 different boons up EVERY time he came out of stealth (every 3 seconds) they either refreshed or were replaced with others.

Clones and Phantasms are physical manifestations created from their target’s thoughts. If said target dies they die too.

As our skills summon these with little cost (No added recharge in particular) it may not seem like it but it’s exactly the same as other professions having to wait to use their skills.

Until Mesmers start summoning these illusions from their own minds (which would be amazingly OP) you’re just going to have to wait to re-use skills like every other person.

Castaliea.3156:

Clones and Phantasms are physical manifestations created from their target’s thoughts. If said target dies they die too.

Considering we can summon clones and phantasms to attack inanimate objects such as gates and arrow carts and golems, I honestly can’t agree to this way of thinking anymore, haha.

IceBlink.4317:

Castaliea.3156:

Clones and Phantasms are physical manifestations created from their target’s thoughts. If said target dies they die too.

Considering we can summon clones and phantasms to attack inanimate objects such as gates and arrow carts and golems, I honestly can’t agree to this way of thinking anymore, haha.

THIS lol

but then there’s no way to get rid of half useless phantasms such as iwarden/image if needed? lol no thanks i prefer what we currently have… One thing i agree tho, phantasms shouldn’t die after your target dies but only disappear when you’re out of combat or you die.

Any change in this direction would most likely include a cd increase for all phantasm skills. I rather keep our current, actually quite short cds instead, thanks.

To the first 2 responders, i meant situations with a large group of foes at the same time or alot foes short after each other.

One or two foes is not an issue

A minor correction.
I mentioned a max amount of 3 Clones and as much Phantasms as u can equip skills for. That may be to much.
Two weapon sets, and max 2 Utility skills with a Phantasm is 4 Phantasm max.
So, limiting max Phantasms is prolly needed.
Say max 3 clones and max 2 Phantams.

I was mainly inspired by Necro minions currently.
They all heal out of combat (except the traited one), so necro has often to nearly always a small minions army at disposal.

Nuka Cola.8520:

but then there’s no way to get rid of half useless phantasms such as iwarden/image if needed? lol no thanks i prefer what we currently have… One thing i agree tho, phantasms shouldn’t die after your target dies but only disappear when you’re out of combat or you die.

Ok, u want to be able get rid of Phantasms before Combat Mode ends.
So, removing Phantams from Shatter mechanism not then.
At least someone agrees that then Phantasms should stay a bit longer

Necro minions also:
- got way longer cds than clones.
- can only be summoned one at a time by each skill.
- are totally stupid (clones just auto-attack, but at least they are actually DOING something)

I much prefer our illusion system over necro minions. If you want to play something like necro, maybe try that class ^^

Sometimes in wvw your phantasms do stay and attack the next person that you attack or that attacks you. When i have 3 phants out as a phant build, the burst instant drops people. So for phantasms to stay as long as your in combat, there damage would be massively decreased.

Iavra.8510:

Necro minions also:
- got way longer cds than clones.
- can only be summoned one at a time by each skill.
- are totally stupid (clones just auto-attack, but at least they are actually DOING something)

I much prefer our illusion system over necro minions. If you want to play something like necro, maybe try that class ^^

They have more health, do more damage. I would say both Necro minions and our clones have benefits, but both also have weaknesses.

Then that’s a good thing. There needs to be some diversity in this game, after all.

The way I look at mesmer’s illusions:
They’re not pets, they’re resources. So it’s more fitting to compare our illusions to thief’s initiative or warrior’s adrenaline, rather than necro’s minions or ranger’s pets.

You generate resources during to combat, then use it for either:
1) shatter – main class mechanic (every mesmer should learn this the first thing in their mesmer life)
2) on-death effects for conditions
3) burst dmg from phantasms (pretty much like warrior’s burst move) since all phantasms deal great dmg (except iMage ofc)

The class mechanic is perfectly unique as it is, please don’t dumb it down to like any other class’s. Although some number tweaking/balancing would be nice (like make iMage more powerful, clone skill CDs, etc.)

keenlam.4753:

You generate resources during to combat, then use it for either:
1) shatter – main class mechanic (every mesmer should learn this the first thing in their mesmer life)
2) on-death effects for conditions
3) burst dmg from phantasms (pretty much like warrior’s burst move) since all phantasms deal great dmg (except iMage ofc)

1) Disagree – I find the whole shatter system very meh. The Shatter i use the most is Distortion. The rest arent to great. Unless you are BUILT for a Shatter build then its more effective most of the time to not shatter them

2) Disagree – If not built for them then that doesnt even come into it, sure everyone SHOULD be taking the traits as they are low in the trees, doesnt mean everyone will. So again a Build thing.

3) Agree – even without the traits for Phantoms some of them iZerker and iDuelist for example can do very good damage, even more so when actually built for them.

@ArmageddonAsh:

Lol, i think you misunderstand me somehow.
I listed 3 ways you can utilise the resources – our illusions. Of course you want to choose one (or two) of those and optimise the effectiveness by building traits/gearing up around it. One doesn’t necessarily need to make use of all those 3 ways, you can but then you’re a jack of all trades.
Still don’t know why you disagreed to my bullet points which are pretty much universal truth.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I find the whole shatter system very meh. The Shatter i use the most is Distortion. The rest arent to great. Unless you are BUILT for a Shatter build then its more effective most of the time to not shatter them

I don’t shatter much tbh, maybe it’s my relaxing playstyle or I’m just too lazy to bother pressing F keys. Too many keys =p.

keenlam.4753:

@ArmageddonAsh:

Lol, i think you misunderstand me somehow.
I listed 3 ways you can utilise the resources – our illusions. Of course you want to choose one (or two) of those and optimise the effectiveness by building traits/gearing up around it. One doesn’t necessarily need to make use of all those 3 ways, you can but then you’re a jack of all trades.
Still don’t know why you disagreed to my bullet points which are pretty much universal truth.

What other classes “special Mechanic” needs to be TRAITED for to make it actually worth using (Shatters) even with traits they are still meh (again shatters) The conditions are decent but necros do (and Engis i have seen) can do Conditions far better,. You dont build around them they should be used to supplement your build.

The point being to make any of them worthwhile (or even usable) is that they need to be traited for to make them worth using (depending on opinion, i still think when traited they suck)

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

What other classes “special Mechanic” needs to be TRAITED for to make it actually worth using

Just so you know:
Thief’s Steal only deals dmg when traited.
Guardian’s Virtues needs to be traited if you want to use/abuse them, otherwise best just leave it on passive.
Ranger’s Pets, if don’t put points in Beast Mastery, they’re pretty much useless especially with the dmg nerf recently.
That should be enough examples for you since you love comparing our class to other classes.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

You dont build around them they should be used to supplement your build.
The point being to make any of them worthwhile (or even usable) is that they need to be traited for to make them worth using (depending on opinion, i still think when traited they suck)

Really biased, totally agree on ‘depending on opinion’ part though.
Also I repeat, shatter is one of the class core mechanics, if you use it for your build, you have to build around it, because it’s CORE. You had it the other way round (supplement your build, really?)

PS: I give up, won’t post any further. Sounds like you have trouble understanding my English.

Iavra.8510:

Leave it as is it currently. Clones can be spammed and most phantasms got decent cds, too. Just don’t shatter when you don’t want your phantasms to die.

This. Rather they work on our many bugs than changing core mechanics which aren’t broken. If Phantasms didn’t die when their target died they’d have to adjust their CD’s accordingly. I like things how they are. The replacement logic is fine. The choice between keeping phants and shattering is fine.