Guild Wars 2

everyone knows how brainless bearbow used to be considered, now there’s PU and stealth spamming on mesmer. add perplexity runes to the mix and you have a build that can beat nearly everything, whether or not you’re even the slightest bit talented.

is this ever going to be addressed? it’s really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now and very hard to counter. (fun fact, old PU wasn’t this strong. it still had more cheese than all of wisconsin, but wasn’t as strong as it is now.)

Lightsbane.9012:

everyone knows how brainless bearbow used to be considered, now there’s PU and stealth spamming on mesmer. add perplexity runes to the mix and you have a build that can beat nearly everything, whether or not you’re even the slightest bit talented.

is this ever going to be addressed? it’s really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now and very hard to counter. (fun fact, old PU wasn’t this strong. it still had more cheese than all of wisconsin, but wasn’t as strong as it is now.)

1. Perplexity runes require interrupts to be effective. Interrupts aren’t easy for people who aren’t “the slightest bit talented”, unless facing other people who aren’t “the slightest bit talented”, in which case what’s the problem?

2. It’s not one of the strongest builds in pvp, because stealth spamming in pvp is counterproductive. This has been explained (and ignored) exhaustively.

3. When combined with PU, The Pledge adds more stealth than PU itself does. And since that’s a bug, fixing the bug will have a dramatic impact on your complaint.

4. You’re implying that new PU is cheesy because it’s even stronger than old PU. Old PU wasn’t cheesy because it was strong, it was cheesy because clone death allowed PU builds to run around spamming clone bombs from stealth, which is troll play at its finest. No clone death means combat requires coming out of stealth, now. If power were cheesy, elementalists would be limburger.

5. WvW is a terrible basis for build balance. There are far too many factors in WvW to make it a good indicator of build power.

6. PU mesmer is only powerful in WvW roaming…a play case that is not central to WvW itself. The majority of play in WvW involves the zerg and group play, which PU builds are really not great at. So you are wrong, it’s not “really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now,” it’s one of the strongest builds in “WvW roaming” specifically.

In sum:

• PU builds are only overpowered in WvW roaming.
• WvW roaming is the very least important segment of GW2 game play, balance-wise
• The Pledge is a bigger issue than PU itself.
• PU condi builds using Perplexity runes are not easy mode.

tl;dr: you are right that stealth mesmer is very powerful in WvW roaming, to the point that it may be worth looking at balance of it after dealing with all the spvp and pve balance issues surrounding mesmers.

You’re wrong about pretty much everything else.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Lightsbane.9012:

everyone knows how brainless bearbow used to be considered, now there’s PU and stealth spamming on mesmer. add perplexity runes to the mix and you have a build that can beat nearly everything, whether or not you’re even the slightest bit talented.

is this ever going to be addressed? it’s really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now and very hard to counter. (fun fact, old PU wasn’t this strong. it still had more cheese than all of wisconsin, but wasn’t as strong as it is now.)

1. Perplexity runes require interrupts to be effective. Interrupts aren’t easy for people who aren’t “the slightest bit talented”, unless facing other people who aren’t “the slightest bit talented”, in which case what’s the problem?

2. It’s not one of the strongest builds in pvp, because stealth spamming in pvp is counterproductive. This has been explained (and ignored) exhaustively.

3. When combined with PU, The Pledge adds more stealth than PU itself does. And since that’s a bug, fixing the bug will have a dramatic impact on your complaint.

4. You’re implying that new PU is cheesy because it’s even stronger than old PU. Old PU wasn’t cheesy because it was strong, it was cheesy because clone death allowed PU builds to run around spamming clone bombs from stealth, which is troll play at its finest. No clone death means combat requires coming out of stealth, now. If power were cheesy, elementalists would be limburger.

5. WvW is a terrible basis for build balance. There are far too many factors in WvW to make it a good indicator of build power.

6. PU mesmer is only powerful in WvW roaming…a play case that is not central to WvW itself. The majority of play in WvW involves the zerg and group play, which PU builds are really not great at. So you are wrong, it’s not “really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now,” it’s one of the strongest builds in “WvW roaming” specifically.

In sum:

• PU builds are only overpowered in WvW roaming.
• WvW roaming is the very least important segment of GW2 game play, balance-wise
• The Pledge is a bigger issue than PU itself.
• PU condi builds using Perplexity runes are not easy mode.

tl;dr: you are right that stealth mesmer is very powerful in WvW roaming, to the point that it may be worth looking at balance of it after dealing with all the spvp and pve balance issues surrounding mesmers.

You’re wrong about pretty much everything else.

so PU is NOT a crutch build. okay. That’s why 7/10 mesmers in wvw run it. whether it does anything to the benefit as a whole wasn’t really my point, and I ..kind of thought that was pretty obvious. Though that’s not fully true, when you have a mesmer that can get 40+ seconds of stealth that’s hiding in a keep, it becomes a serious problem when they are that difficult to get rid of simply because of the traits they have taken.

Nah old condi PU was worse(more passive) remember that all clone death traits are gone. PU power is more squishy and to maximalize DMG have to run without condi clear. What is more you can still outrun almost any PU build, just ignore them.

I like the subtle implication that bearbow was ever a good build.

You really need to work on your critical reading/thinking skills. Let’s break this down.

Lightsbane.9012:

so PU is NOT a crutch build. okay.

1. Your assumption that builds with a low skill floor are by default bad is baseless.
2. You cited Runes of Perplexity, which require interrupts, which are very much not a “crutch” tactic, given the difficulty inherent in making good use of them. The build you cited, using Perplexity, is not a “crutch” as you would say.

Lightsbane.9012:

That’s why 7/10 mesmers in wvw run it.

1. And how many wvw builds are there for thief these days? Warriors? Guardians? Necros? One of the great things that happened to mesmer in June was a massive build diversity improvement, the fact that there’s still one “best” build for a particular segment of gameplay is par for the course. Your point is meaningless.
2. WvW ROAMING. If 14/15 players on a wvw map are running with the zerg, and mesmers suck in the zerg (they do), then running into a mesmer in wvw means 95% of the time you’re running into a player who is out roaming. There are maybe 4 builds in the entire game that are decent at solo roaming: stealth mesmer, thief, condi thief, and some build I’m sure I’m forgetting. Marathon warriors maybe. Of course most of the mesmers you see in WvW will have PU. If they didn’t, they couldn’t roam. If they can’t roam, why aren’t they on their elementalist, running with the zerg?

Lightsbane.9012:

whether it does anything to the benefit as a whole wasn’t really my point, and I ..kind of thought that was pretty obvious.

Let’s look at some more choice quotes of yours:

can beat nearly everything
is this ever going to be addressed?
it’s really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now

1. No, it is not even slightly evident that you didn’t think it mattered whether it “does anything to the benefit as a whole”.
My point, and the most common point whenever WvW balance comes up, is that if your tactics don’t inordinately contribute to victory, they are extremely low on Anet’s balance priority. Roaming WvW can be fun with those few builds capable of it, but it’s inevitably a low-impact playstyle, and so it just isn’t very important.
2. You claimed it to be one of the strongest in pvp as well as WvW. Failing to contribute in pvp means being utterly worthless. It seemed “obvious”, then, that you were assuming the power of PU builds was enough to “benefit the whole”. In short, you just lied to me.

Lightsbane.9012:

Though that’s not fully true, when you have a mesmer that can get 40+ seconds of stealth that’s hiding in a keep, it becomes a serious problem when they are that difficult to get rid of simply because of the traits they have taken.

1. That’s The Pledge specifically allowing that. If they fixed it, mesmers would be unable to stealth nearly long enough to pull this off. They definitely should do that.
2. Perma-stealthing in a keep is not very easy (have you tried it? The timing is really touchy, and you’re exploding in flame every 12s, which means you can’t be near any npcs/players, and players can spot the fire burst from across the compound), which means it’s completely irrelevant to your original thesis, that PU mesmer is a “crutch” build.

If PU was left unchanged it would be pretty much in line with other GM traits. Not counting the ones that shouldn’t even be in the GM slot like BD and Malicious Sorcery.

Hold up. Are you actually saying that bearbow was considered strong/op/anything other than awful?

LOL

Bearbow rangers have always been the go-to build when talking about bad players that have no idea what they’re doing, that don’t contribute anything to their parties, and are never a threat. So you’re taking that build and trying to use it as another argument as to why Mesmer should get nerfed?

Honestly, I’ll give you points for creativity on this one. 10/10, would give a sensible chuckle again.

Fay.2357:

Hold up. Are you actually saying that bearbow was considered strong/op/anything other than awful?

LOL

Bearbow rangers have always been the go-to build when talking about bad players that have no idea what they’re doing, that don’t contribute anything to their parties, and are never a threat. So you’re taking that build and trying to use it as another argument as to why Mesmer should get nerfed?

Honestly, I’ll give you points for creativity on this one. 10/10, would give a sensible chuckle again.

Yea… unfortunately the parallel to the old bearbow isn’t quite adequate.

Mesmers are actually useful in 2/3 formats whereas the old bearbow wasn’t useful in any.

PU condi is just a faceroll build and pretty much always has been. It’s just now even stronger and even more facerolly than it was because it’s that much stronger.

Maybe if they just removed dire gear from WvW it’d be a bit more fair, but as it is in dire gear, it’s pretty much invincible. A lot of the PU condi mesmers now are previous P/D condi thieves who did just as much facerolling and played basically the same way. Except PU condi mesmer is just straight up better at everything in every way.

Don’t even get me started on PU Condi Chronomancer. I pray they make some tweaks because that build was absolutely stupid to play against.

The reason most mesmers pick PU in WvW is so they don’t end up dying to the 20,000 blooming thieves rolling their faces across anything that didn’t get blessed with OK amounts of stealth by the ANet gods.

That and to be able to get away from the many many many other classes with better out of combat mobility, which is nearly everything but guard.

Stealth in WvW = Get out of death free card.

As for mesmers stealthing in keeps. Y u no stelf trap???

Lightsbane.9012:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Lightsbane.9012:

everyone knows how brainless bearbow used to be considered, now there’s PU and stealth spamming on mesmer. add perplexity runes to the mix and you have a build that can beat nearly everything, whether or not you’re even the slightest bit talented.

is this ever going to be addressed? it’s really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now and very hard to counter. (fun fact, old PU wasn’t this strong. it still had more cheese than all of wisconsin, but wasn’t as strong as it is now.)

1. Perplexity runes require interrupts to be effective. Interrupts aren’t easy for people who aren’t “the slightest bit talented”, unless facing other people who aren’t “the slightest bit talented”, in which case what’s the problem?

2. It’s not one of the strongest builds in pvp, because stealth spamming in pvp is counterproductive. This has been explained (and ignored) exhaustively.

3. When combined with PU, The Pledge adds more stealth than PU itself does. And since that’s a bug, fixing the bug will have a dramatic impact on your complaint.

4. You’re implying that new PU is cheesy because it’s even stronger than old PU. Old PU wasn’t cheesy because it was strong, it was cheesy because clone death allowed PU builds to run around spamming clone bombs from stealth, which is troll play at its finest. No clone death means combat requires coming out of stealth, now. If power were cheesy, elementalists would be limburger.

5. WvW is a terrible basis for build balance. There are far too many factors in WvW to make it a good indicator of build power.

6. PU mesmer is only powerful in WvW roaming…a play case that is not central to WvW itself. The majority of play in WvW involves the zerg and group play, which PU builds are really not great at. So you are wrong, it’s not “really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now,” it’s one of the strongest builds in “WvW roaming” specifically.

In sum:

• PU builds are only overpowered in WvW roaming.
• WvW roaming is the very least important segment of GW2 game play, balance-wise
• The Pledge is a bigger issue than PU itself.
• PU condi builds using Perplexity runes are not easy mode.

tl;dr: you are right that stealth mesmer is very powerful in WvW roaming, to the point that it may be worth looking at balance of it after dealing with all the spvp and pve balance issues surrounding mesmers.

You’re wrong about pretty much everything else.

so PU is NOT a crutch build. okay. That’s why 7/10 mesmers in wvw run it. whether it does anything to the benefit as a whole wasn’t really my point, and I ..kind of thought that was pretty obvious. Though that’s not fully true, when you have a mesmer that can get 40+ seconds of stealth that’s hiding in a keep, it becomes a serious problem when they are that difficult to get rid of simply because of the traits they have taken.

I run PU for the same reason I always have ran it. Boons with much more flexibility and reliability then signet and chaos armor builds. Specifically the combo of aegis, prot, regen, since I always preferred to play bunker mez, no matter otehr flavorings on it.

before the patch the boon generation got so sub par that I between the utter kittenty boredom of power builds (sword + focus + GS + zerk stats) and that, got me to entirely stop playing my mes. restarted in after condi patch + PU and am having a blast in PvP at least, both WvW and sPVP. If they make condis better in PVE I would love to start playing my mes even more.

i also fully agree with the other guy, its only issue in WvW roaming, in large scale groups, condi / PU is still far sub par, GWEN is still the thing, just more ranged heavy now. if PU was as OP as you claim, that would have changed, but it has not, and it needs to.

so let me ask you then, what changes would you make to mes to be included in the GWEN meta that would not be OP in SPVP or WvW roaming ?

DeceiverX.8361:

Don’t even get me started on PU Condi Chronomancer. I pray they make some tweaks because that build was absolutely stupid to play against.

PU condie chronomancer isn’t a thing. You could do it, theoretically, but it would be an awful build. So please, complain more about builds that nobody ran at all. You’re probably confusing it with simply normal condie chronomancer. Just goes to show how unbelievably ignorant most people who complain about mesmer are.

Fay.2357:

DeceiverX.8361:

Don’t even get me started on PU Condi Chronomancer. I pray they make some tweaks because that build was absolutely stupid to play against.

PU condie chronomancer isn’t a thing. You could do it, theoretically, but it would be an awful build. So please, complain more about builds that nobody ran at all. You’re probably confusing it with simply normal condie chronomancer. Just goes to show how unbelievably ignorant most people who complain about mesmer are.

Well, It’s kinda natural, Thieves used to be the apex roamer or zerker in just about every game mode. So some of them will adapt and some will complain until they get back to the easymode level they used to be in.

It’s like when Rangers got buffed and no one wanted to learn how to dodge RF.
So there were 10 threads a day about how OP the damage was.

This will go on for mes as well.
Since the nerfs to mantra’s,gs, and fire and air, I think Power mes is sitting in a good spot.
But people will still want their free kills.
Thus is life.

so what are the arguments for PU condi being OP? Too much stealth and damage? Well, here than, watch this thief stealth more often, heal up more and potentially better at focusing a target + alot more mobility. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS3wQsF0IqI
Disclaimer: Recorded today for fun, I’m not in a berserker shatter build, nor do I have food buffs.

Eremoo.2785:

Disclaimer: Recorded today for fun, I’m not in a berserker shatter build, nor do I have food buffs.

Nor did you even once attempt to use your GS to knock the Thief out of Shadow Refuge, when he/she reset, but simply ran around pressing 1, 1, 1. You forgot to mention that as well, heh.

No. .
.
.
.
.
.

Eremoo.2785:

so what are the arguments for PU condi being OP? Too much stealth and damage? Well, here than, watch this thief stealth more often, heal up more and potentially better at focusing a target + alot more mobility. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS3wQsF0IqI
Disclaimer: Recorded today for fun, I’m not in a berserker shatter build, nor do I have food buffs.

Yeah, as much as people complain far too much about mesmer things, this is the last video I’d ever want to use to try and demonstrate thieves being too strong. That thief is playing the three of you like a fiddle, they’re playing at a whole different level from your group.

I miss Chorazin

Fay.2357:

That thief is playing the three of you like a fiddle, they’re playing at a whole different level from your group.

The word fiddle can never be the same for me, ever again. Thanks, Kaz; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuK1Yr35Io

Addresing to stealthing in wvw keep issue – use stealth disruptor trap. Before patch I used them often against permastealth thieves at keeps (btw why nobody complaints about them?), now against PU mesmsers too. It is easy and effective. Even at open field I sometimes use trap and kite mesmer to trap. It is not necessarily for finding pu mesmer in inner though. Just sweeps keep, listen sounds (torch), observe visuals, etc. Sometimes ppl just don’t check – in that case I just can recap keep in 3-5 mins solo (thief can do this too).

cripplebomb was pretty awful (not for me as I was mesmer main haha :P),

but yes mesmer skills are abit lackluster, and no it won’t be addressed.

OP, i wouldnt worry much about skillless pu t. mesmers anymore. Let them faceroll people while they can as they dont have much time left in existence.

Mallyx says hi to his food

So weird that only a few weeks ago after the new patch mesmer players wer complaining on how mesmer is to op now & Anet should tone it down a bit. We had 2 metas(PU & Mantra build) & now that they nerf the hole thing down again, we have only PU build for the meta & no more good damage outburst as before. & reading now, ppl are complaining on how bad the mesmer is?

Holly cow folks…make up your mind.

Prismatic Understanding needs to be removed/reworked completely. Condition scaling in general has to be toned done by a very substantial amount. Then up Mass Invisibilitys cast time and make it so you can’t move while casting it (like pistol 5 -> HS thief). Then lower the damage of illusions.

Maybe remove the stealth from torch after that, but I’m not entirely sure about this. Alternatively, up the cast time and reduce the stealth duration.

In short: The problem with PU mesmers is op stealth (too long, too easy/fast to apply) and broken condition damage.

Although PU might be only good in small scale fights, it is way too good for those scenarios. It shall remain a roaming build, but a lot turned down in strength.

Everything else is madness.

Adrenalin.5719:

Prismatic Understanding needs to be removed/reworked completely. Condition scaling in general has to be toned done by a very substantial amount. Then up Mass Invisibilitys cast time and make it so you can’t move while casting it (like pistol 5 -> HS thief). Then lower the damage of illusions.

Maybe remove the stealth from torch after that, but I’m not entirely sure about this. Alternatively, up the cast time and reduce the stealth duration.

In short: The problem with PU mesmers is op stealth (too long, too easy/fast to apply) and broken condition damage.

Although PU might be only good in small scale fights, it is way too good for those scenarios. It shall remain a roaming build, but a lot turned down in strength.

Everything else is madness.

Translation: PU is op, stealth is op, conditions are op. Anet should nerf everything that isn’t standing toe to toe and pressing 1, that way there’s no complex thought necessary to play the game so that I can do better.

Yeah, since spamming conditions and camping stealth by not even comboing fields (like thief 5 → 2) or being stuck in a place (sr) takes skill. Not. Because going full condition damage enables going tanky (since you only need one offensive damage attribute) and being tanky means you need more skill to play. Not.

Choices and different combos etc. etc. is nice and lacks in this game, but there is a distinct difference between something bein op and something being versatile.

PU just gives stupid long stealth and random boons. There are no special fun combos because of this. Longer stealth just makes it easier to combo and more forgiving to play since you can stealth out all the time.

Adrenalin.5719:

Prismatic Understanding needs to be removed/reworked completely. Condition scaling in general has to be toned done by a very substantial amount. Then up Mass Invisibilitys cast time and make it so you can’t move while casting it (like pistol 5 -> HS thief). Then lower the damage of illusions.

Maybe remove the stealth from torch after that, but I’m not entirely sure about this. Alternatively, up the cast time and reduce the stealth duration.

In short: The problem with PU mesmers is op stealth (too long, too easy/fast to apply) and broken condition damage.

Although PU might be only good in small scale fights, it is way too good for those scenarios. It shall remain a roaming build, but a lot turned down in strength.

Everything else is madness.

To sum: “KILL THE MESMER”

Short response: you’re very, very wrong.

Long response:
“Lower the damage of illusions”

• It’s not the illusions that are killing you. This right here shows that you don’t actually understand the mechanics you are complaining about. Any developer reading your recommendation should immediately be suspicious of you.

“Prismatic Understanding needs to be removed”:

• Let’s do a comparison.
• Mesmer:
  Max Stealth: 22s with PU, but not The Pledge
  Investment: 1 weapon skill, 1 utility, 1 elite.
  Side benefits: Some boons while stealthed; 1 Aoe Blind/burn; 1 clone; 10s ally stealth, no catch;
  Uptime: total stealth uptime of mesmer with torch, decoy and MI is 50%, so the mesmer can be stealthed 50% of the time.
• Thief (stealth potential):
  Max Stealth: Effectively unlimited, Shadow Refuge + Smokescreen + Shortbow = infinite stealth.
  Investment: Variable. Unlimited stealth= 2 utilities, 1 weapon choice (which is generally default anyway)
  Side benefits: infinite ally stealth (positional requirement); projectile block
  Uptime: 100%
• Thief (combat):
  Max Stealth: 29s
  Investment: Variable. 9 initiative, 2 utilities, 1 heal gives 29s. Removing heal gives 25s, skipping Heartseeker but using heal gives 26s and use 3 less initiative, etc. More caveats than mesmer, as several stealth tricks can be messed up by accidentally hitting someone after using black powder while stealthed.
  Side benefits: blinds, lots of them; 22s ally stealth; regenerate initiative, heal, cleanse conditions while stealthed; take 25% less damage while stealthed; cure condis with heal; +200 power when revealed; much-damage backstab attacking out of stealth; quickness on successful backstab;
  Uptime: 99% without using steal or multiple HS per BP. Infinite using multiple HS per BP (open roaming).

• Thieves have more stealth uptime, more side benefits to stealth, more continuous stealth potential, the option to invest more heavily in stealth, and the ability to stealth themselves and allies indefinitely. Attacking from stealth gives thieves extra combat bonuses, including extra power and heavier burst from stealth.
• PU mesmers without The Pledge, meanwhile, have a max of 50% stealth uptime, less continuous uptime, fewer side benefits, less ability to stealth allies, with the advantage that their stealth requires fewer positioning tricks to pull off. Condition mesmers have demonstrably lower burst potential than power mesmers and thieves, and power mesmers running PU are so glass they are countered by D/D eles and guardians in addition to their usual thief/necro/condi mes soft counters.

The problem is not PU, the problem is the bugged trait The Pledge, which raises Mesmer potential stealth uptime to 98%, continuous stealth to 40s without Veil, and encourages stealth camping by increasing stealth uptime the more you stay in stealth (a trait that says more stealth = more stealth, and they didn’t think mesmers would start camping stealth?)

“In short: The problem with PU mesmers is op stealth (too long, too easy/fast to apply) and broken condition damage.”
1. And that’s not a problem with Thieves?
2. “Make all the changes!” is a classic mistake of poor critical thinkers. Any one of the suggestions you made would bring the mesmer stealth down dramatically. All of them together kills mesmer stealth as a viable mechanic.
3. No, condition damage is not broken. There’s a reason condi builds don’t have a strong presence in pro tournament play. The issue is that poor critical thinkers like yourself haven’t gotten off their lazy duffs to learn the weakness of condi builds: cleanse. Smart cleansing and/or plentiful cleansing neuters condi builds. The June patch made condis viable where they barely were before, it’s gonna take a while before people get adjusted to the new tactics required.

“Although PU might be only good in small scale fights, it is way too good for those scenarios.”
Your response is to kill the value of mesmer stealth in every scenario for the sake of “small scale fights”, which is Bad Design. Your suggestion as a whole is Bad Design, and you should be ashamed of making it.

“It shall remain a roaming build, but a lot turned down in strength.”
No, it would not be a viable roaming build, taking your suggestions. Mesmers can’t bunker and dps at the same time like ele and guardian, so taking away their stealth would have the same effect as taking it away from thief would: they would no longer be viable in WvW outside the zerg, because they wouldn’t stay alive.

“Everything else is madness”
A nice bit of extreme hyperbole from someone who has demonstrated a very, very poor understanding of design.

Adrenalin.5719:

Yeah, since spamming conditions and camping stealth by not even comboing fields (like thief 5 -> 2) or being stuck in a place (sr) takes skill. Not. Because going full condition damage enables going tanky (since you only need one offensive damage attribute) and being tanky means you need more skill to play. Not.

Choices and different combos etc. etc. is nice and lacks in this game, but there is a distinct difference between something bein op and something being versatile.

PU just gives stupid long stealth and random boons. There are no special fun combos because of this. Longer stealth just makes it easier to combo and more forgiving to play since you can stealth out all the time.

Comboing fields is not a magic indicator of skill.
Black Power+Blinding Powder for 7s of stealth is one of the easiest 2-button combos in the game.
In fact, doing complicated things in general is not a magical indicator of skill. For a better understanding of why this is, I refer you to http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub
Take special note of his story of the scrub who was very, very good at combos, but got his face mopped anyway.
Complexity in games is a way to reward game excellence by gating power behind a skill ceiling, but it is not an objective in and of itself. Condi builds don’t require skill because it’s hard to press the buttons anymore than longbow ranger requires skill because it’s hard to hit rapid shot and quickening zephyr at the same time. They require skill because success requires appropriate timing, positioning and counterplay. Balancing conditions against enemy cleanses is hard when the enemy actually knows to cleanse. Getting illusions up and keeping them up against enemies who know that killing clones weakens mesmer shatters is hard.
What condi mes is best at is punishing people who don’t take the time to learn to counterplay, which makes it a good noob-stomper build. It’s also good at punishing builds that went so heavy glass that they didn’t take any condi cleanse…which is a part of the metagame that Anet has repeatedly gone out of its way to encourage.

Do consider that the reason berzerker is the knee-jerk meta gearset is because the synergy between the physical offensive stats outshines anything else. Your argument that conditions are OP because you can be tanky and damaging at the same time assumes that relying on condition damage as your only offensive stat comes without a meaningful cost. That is unequivocally not true, as any of the Berserker-boosters will tell you in a heartbeat.

Furthermore, I refer to Pyro’s point about 1v1s. You admitted that this is only an issue in small-group WvW, a game segment this is so far down Anet’s list of design priorities that they have done literally nothing to support it since the game released.
Boo hoo, the only builds that can solo roam are PU mesmers, thieves, DD Eles and some Guardians. Anet doesn’t care, because they are balancing WvW around the large-scale conflict, not the few people that love to run around dueling.

A well build mesmer is a god among all other classes that have great builds as well.

Frankly, since thieves can still outstealth us and get their own “while cloaked” effects, I really don’t see PU being all that bad now that clone on death effects are gone.

Lightsbane.9012:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Lightsbane.9012:

everyone knows how brainless bearbow used to be considered, now there’s PU and stealth spamming on mesmer. add perplexity runes to the mix and you have a build that can beat nearly everything, whether or not you’re even the slightest bit talented.

is this ever going to be addressed? it’s really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now and very hard to counter. (fun fact, old PU wasn’t this strong. it still had more cheese than all of wisconsin, but wasn’t as strong as it is now.)

1. Perplexity runes require interrupts to be effective. Interrupts aren’t easy for people who aren’t “the slightest bit talented”, unless facing other people who aren’t “the slightest bit talented”, in which case what’s the problem?

2. It’s not one of the strongest builds in pvp, because stealth spamming in pvp is counterproductive. This has been explained (and ignored) exhaustively.

3. When combined with PU, The Pledge adds more stealth than PU itself does. And since that’s a bug, fixing the bug will have a dramatic impact on your complaint.

4. You’re implying that new PU is cheesy because it’s even stronger than old PU. Old PU wasn’t cheesy because it was strong, it was cheesy because clone death allowed PU builds to run around spamming clone bombs from stealth, which is troll play at its finest. No clone death means combat requires coming out of stealth, now. If power were cheesy, elementalists would be limburger.

5. WvW is a terrible basis for build balance. There are far too many factors in WvW to make it a good indicator of build power.

6. PU mesmer is only powerful in WvW roaming…a play case that is not central to WvW itself. The majority of play in WvW involves the zerg and group play, which PU builds are really not great at. So you are wrong, it’s not “really one of the strongest builds in wvw/pvp right now,” it’s one of the strongest builds in “WvW roaming” specifically.

In sum:

• PU builds are only overpowered in WvW roaming.
• WvW roaming is the very least important segment of GW2 game play, balance-wise
• The Pledge is a bigger issue than PU itself.
• PU condi builds using Perplexity runes are not easy mode.

tl;dr: you are right that stealth mesmer is very powerful in WvW roaming, to the point that it may be worth looking at balance of it after dealing with all the spvp and pve balance issues surrounding mesmers.

You’re wrong about pretty much everything else.

so PU is NOT a crutch build. okay. That’s why 7/10 mesmers in wvw run it. whether it does anything to the benefit as a whole wasn’t really my point, and I ..kind of thought that was pretty obvious. Though that’s not fully true, when you have a mesmer that can get 40+ seconds of stealth that’s hiding in a keep, it becomes a serious problem when they are that difficult to get rid of simply because of the traits they have taken.

it isn’t a crutch at all, if the Mesmer balls up they have a stealth, it makes the situation more forgiving but ur acting as if mesmers have 101 different abilities which give them invisibility, given most run with Moa you only have like what 1 stealth + 1 stealth under 30% health so theres no way once its happened the mesmers turning around after this.

Implying it was a crutch it’d need a good ratio of Actually pulling the player through where realistically it actually doesn’kittens easier then a Mesmer without PU sure it is but it isn’t as big of a crutch as some proffessions seriously have, the profession isn’t accessing anything really else outside of it. we don’t really have survivability coming out from anywhere else but escape.

a Bad Mesmer will still instantly lose points, will still die in the actual fight and still wont kill anyone, just cause they now prance around invisable to escape preventing you actually getting the kill doesn’t make it a crutch at the end of the day nothing was achieved the Mesmer fleeing via stealth.

Kinda been the perk of playing a stealth styled profession since the beginning of MMos and yet only now being viewed as a crutch.

7/10 mesmers use it because its listed in a Meta Build, just like if it was nerfed and suddenly removed no one would use it again, Most competitive players use what works the best, anything less is a handicap therefore will use whatever is considered meta… to use that as reasoning to ur opinon of a ability is just ridiculous.

10/10 thief use D/P, does this make their entire weapon set a crutch they lean on? no it doesn’t just shows its stronger then alternatives. Same goes for PU, people will adapt to whatever is reaching the highest numbers, its how ur ment to play and will prove those who are and arnt good at their profession.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

To sum: “KILL THE MESMER”

Short response: you’re very, very wrong.

ill give you that he basically wanted to gut your class.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

“Prismatic Understanding needs to be removed”:

• Let’s do a comparison.
• Mesmer:
  Max Stealth: 22s with PU, but not The Pledge
  Investment: 1 weapon skill, 1 utility, 1 elite.
  Side benefits: Some boons while stealthed; 1 Aoe Blind/burn; 1 clone; 10s ally stealth, no catch;
  Uptime: total stealth uptime of mesmer with torch, decoy and MI is 50%, so the mesmer can be stealthed 50% of the time.
  ….

• Thieves have more stealth uptime, more side benefits to stealth, more continuous stealth potential, the option to invest more heavily in stealth, and the ability to stealth themselves and allies indefinitely. Attacking from stealth gives thieves extra combat bonuses, including extra power and heavier burst from stealth.

• PU mesmers without The Pledge, meanwhile, have a max of 50% stealth uptime, less continuous uptime, fewer side benefits, less ability to stealth allies, with the advantage that their stealth requires fewer positioning tricks to pull off. Condition mesmers have demonstrably lower burst potential than power mesmers and thieves, and power mesmers running PU are so glass they are countered by D/D eles and guardians in addition to their usual thief/necro/condi mes soft counters.

The problem is not PU, the problem is the bugged trait The Pledge…

On the comparison:
Mesmers are not thieves. What might be OP for one may not necessarily be OP for the other.
On PU:
Double stealth duration is a problem regardless of The Pledge. Its not just about % uptime, its about how it plays. 3-4 second stealth means a player can ride out a stealth-to-shatter by tossing up a block, or a leap, or a well timed dodge, or going stealth himself. With 6 sec stealth per skill, classes have to daisy-chain 2 of their cooldowns together to counter just one stealth skill from the mesmer and avoid the shatter. The only other abilities that give stealth for that long are combo fields (which can at least be countered in a way that often exposes the thief) or Refuge on its 60sec cd (which can also be countered). In gameplay that is play / counterplay, longer stealth from a single move means more counterplay is needed by your opponents and it doesn’t take long to exhaust their cooldowns with 6sec of stealth per skill.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

3. No, condition damage is not broken. There’s a reason condi builds don’t have a strong presence in pro tournament play. The issue is that poor critical thinkers like yourself haven’t gotten off their lazy duffs to learn the weakness of condi builds: cleanse. Smart cleansing and/or plentiful cleansing neuters condi builds. The June patch made condis viable where they barely were before, it’s gonna take a while before people get adjusted to the new tactics required.

Bad example on your end. Dire and perplexity were removed from sPvP and tournament play specifically because they were too strong. Plentiful cleansing can neuter condi builds, but how much cleansing does it actually take to get to that state in a game where cover conditions are so abundant?

For example, I often run this build because the condi cancer wvw meta is just so bad right now: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJATRnUqAtCi1CC+rActgBGh6fiSI17xdDyAOc/2A4kX1oVA-TlCFABt9AAA4IAclSQBuAAOpMKJlOGq+DBHCgi2fINdBkBYZLA-w

That can remove 4 condis per 10sec passively, 1 per 10sec from generosity, it has on-demand 2 condition clear every 20sec from bear, on-demand 1 condition clear on 4 utility skills, and an on-demand full clear from SoR, and uses minus condi duration food. I have been dueling and roaming since beta, and am smart about my cleansing. I still lose fights to good condi eles, necros and mesmers everyday, and I’d put my win % in current meta is around 33% chance to beat a good condi ele, 70% to beat a good condi necro, and 40% on condi mesmers, even bad ones. Why?

Dire and the lack of a need for more than one offensive stat is obviously a big part. Mesmers and eles require immediate, on-demand cleansing of certain bursted conditions (burning/chill and confusion, respectively), and there are only so many on-demand clears. With cover conditions, many little clears just dont cut it. Necros rely more on pressure over time and can be countered better with the passive clearing. While necros have a very long reserve of health to burn through, the ability to the ele to constantly heal and the ability of the mesmer to constantly restealth mean they can outlast their opponent no matter how many clears they bring to the table.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

“Although PU might be only good in small scale fights, it is way too good for those scenarios.”
Your response is to kill the value of mesmer stealth in every scenario for the sake of “small scale fights”, which is Bad Design. Your suggestion as a whole is Bad Design, and you should be ashamed of making it.

“It shall remain a roaming build, but a lot turned down in strength.”
No, it would not be a viable roaming build, taking your suggestions. Mesmers can’t bunker and dps at the same time like ele and guardian, so taking away their stealth would have the same effect as taking it away from thief would: they would no longer be viable in WvW outside the zerg, because they wouldn’t stay alive.

“Everything else is madness”
A nice bit of extreme hyperbole from someone who has demonstrated a very, very poor understanding of design.

There used to be a time when PU stealth didn’t last 6 seconds per skill, and mesmers were still the pinnacle of duelists and roamers. Nerfing PU and fixing The Pledge bug would still leave mesmers as THE apex roaming class, barring some huge HoT specialization upset.

Raven.9603:

On the comparison:
Mesmers are not thieves. What might be OP for one may not necessarily be OP for the other.

The context is specifically the OP, where he equated PU stealth to pre-nerf (?) thief, and said that if thief deserved that nerf, mesmer deserves it now.
The comparison was a specific takedown of his premise, showing that even now thief has more stealth than mesmer.

Raven.9603:

On PU:
Double stealth duration is a problem regardless of The Pledge. Its not just about % uptime, its about how it plays. 3-4 second stealth means a player can ride out a stealth-to-shatter by tossing up a block, or a leap, or a well timed dodge, or going stealth himself. With 6 sec stealth per skill, classes have to daisy-chain 2 of their cooldowns together to counter just one stealth skill from the mesmer and avoid the shatter. The only other abilities that give stealth for that long are combo fields (which can at least be countered in a way that often exposes the thief) or Refuge on its 60sec cd (which can also be countered). In gameplay that is play / counterplay, longer stealth from a single move means more counterplay is needed by your opponents and it doesn’t take long to exhaust their cooldowns with 6sec of stealth per skill.

That’s a very important point, and in fact is the first time I’ve seen anyone make it in the Mesmer forum.
I’m not totally adverse to the idea that PU need’s to be adjusted in some way, I’ve in fact simply been advocating for a fix to The Pledge and then a reevaluation period, so we can examine PU without its nastier little brother.

At one point I suggested that PU be dropped in duration and moved down to master, replaced in the GM tier with a clone-generation trait of some sort, or a solid defensive trait to make up for the loss of stealth time, and duration on Veil/MI be increased directly.
As it seems unlikely, I haven’t pushed it, but if replaced with a good build-defining defensive trait, it seems like it could fill the role PU is so important for, without the issues you are pointing out. What do you think?

Raven.9603:

Bad example on your end. Dire and perplexity were removed from sPvP and tournament play specifically because they were too strong. Plentiful cleansing can neuter condi builds, but how much cleansing does it actually take to get to that state in a game where cover conditions are so abundant?

• That doesn’t change the fact that it’s not taken in tournaments at present.
• Perplexity is in a strange place all its own, tbh. Almost no other runeset provides a benefit as powerful and specific as it does on as low a cooldown as it does. The closest I can think of is Trooper, with all shouts doing a cleanse. Most runesets provide a periodic benefit on a much longer cooldown.
• Dire is indeed in an interesting position in that it provides a lot of tanky to a set of builds that can pump out decent damage with only one stat. I’d be more interested to see how Dire fares after Burning application on engi/ele/guard gets toned down.

Raven.9603:

For example, I often run this build because the condi cancer wvw meta is just so bad right now: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJATRnUqAtCi1CC+rActgBGh6fiSI17xdDyAOc/2A4kX1oVA-TlCFABt9AAA4IAclSQBuAAOpMKJlOGq+DBHCgi2fINdBkBYZLA-w

Meta? Zergs have so much cleanse, I can’t imagine condi being meta in WvW.

Raven.9603:

That can remove 4 condis per 10sec passively, 1 per 10sec from generosity, it has on-demand 2 condition clear every 20sec from bear, on-demand 1 condition clear on 4 utility skills, and an on-demand full clear from SoR, and uses minus condi duration food. I have been dueling and roaming since beta, and am smart about my cleansing. I still lose fights to good condi eles, necros and mesmers everyday, and I’d put my win % in current meta is around 33% chance to beat a good condi ele, 70% to beat a good condi necro, and 40% on condi mesmers, even bad ones. Why?

Ah, I gotcha. You’re falling into the same trap as the OP. Dueling and roaming are not parts of Anet’s supported play types. WvW success is designed around large scale success, and roaming, however successful, is very low-impact in that regard. Even in sPvP, group sizes are large enough that staunch condi-mes players like messiah are confident in saying that condi mes has to carve out a side niche, spending most of the time staying away from the biggest fights.
I don’t mean this to say I don’t think dueling power should be completely ignored by Anet, but it’s so clearly at the bottom of their priorities that it’s one of the last things to be concerned about.
Indeed, there are only a handful of builds that are even viable roaming, not because of the “cancer meta” or because of stealth, but because the nature of roaming is you either play a build that can take on a group in some way, or you get stomped by said group every time you find one. Small group roaming > solo roaming.

Raven.9603:

There used to be a time when PU stealth didn’t last 6 seconds per skill, and mesmers were still the pinnacle of duelists and roamers. Nerfing PU and fixing The Pledge bug would still leave mesmers as THE apex roaming class, barring some huge HoT specialization upset.

Given the really bad place mesmers in general were in back when they were “the pinnacle of duelists and roamers”, this points directly at my previous point: dueling and roaming is not on Anet’s radar, no amount of success in dueling and roaming makes up for failure in group pvp and pve, and no amount of success in dueling and roaming justifies a nerf in group pvp or pve, unless you can nerf the one without nerfing the other.

Raven.9603:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

To sum: “KILL THE MESMER”

Short response: you’re very, very wrong.

ill give you that he basically wanted to gut your class.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

“Prismatic Understanding needs to be removed”:

• Let’s do a comparison.
• Mesmer:
  Max Stealth: 22s with PU, but not The Pledge
  Investment: 1 weapon skill, 1 utility, 1 elite.
  Side benefits: Some boons while stealthed; 1 Aoe Blind/burn; 1 clone; 10s ally stealth, no catch;
  Uptime: total stealth uptime of mesmer with torch, decoy and MI is 50%, so the mesmer can be stealthed 50% of the time.
  ….

• Thieves have more stealth uptime, more side benefits to stealth, more continuous stealth potential, the option to invest more heavily in stealth, and the ability to stealth themselves and allies indefinitely. Attacking from stealth gives thieves extra combat bonuses, including extra power and heavier burst from stealth.

• PU mesmers without The Pledge, meanwhile, have a max of 50% stealth uptime, less continuous uptime, fewer side benefits, less ability to stealth allies, with the advantage that their stealth requires fewer positioning tricks to pull off. Condition mesmers have demonstrably lower burst potential than power mesmers and thieves, and power mesmers running PU are so glass they are countered by D/D eles and guardians in addition to their usual thief/necro/condi mes soft counters.

The problem is not PU, the problem is the bugged trait The Pledge…

On the comparison:
Mesmers are not thieves. What might be OP for one may not necessarily be OP for the other.
On PU:
Double stealth duration is a problem regardless of The Pledge. Its not just about % uptime, its about how it plays. 3-4 second stealth means a player can ride out a stealth-to-shatter by tossing up a block, or a leap, or a well timed dodge, or going stealth himself. With 6 sec stealth per skill, classes have to daisy-chain 2 of their cooldowns together to counter just one stealth skill from the mesmer and avoid the shatter. The only other abilities that give stealth for that long are combo fields (which can at least be countered in a way that often exposes the thief) or Refuge on its 60sec cd (which can also be countered). In gameplay that is play / counterplay, longer stealth from a single move means more counterplay is needed by your opponents and it doesn’t take long to exhaust their cooldowns with 6sec of stealth per skill.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

3. No, condition damage is not broken. There’s a reason condi builds don’t have a strong presence in pro tournament play. The issue is that poor critical thinkers like yourself haven’t gotten off their lazy duffs to learn the weakness of condi builds: cleanse. Smart cleansing and/or plentiful cleansing neuters condi builds. The June patch made condis viable where they barely were before, it’s gonna take a while before people get adjusted to the new tactics required.

Bad example on your end. Dire and perplexity were removed from sPvP and tournament play specifically because they were too strong. Plentiful cleansing can neuter condi builds, but how much cleansing does it actually take to get to that state in a game where cover conditions are so abundant?

For example, I often run this build because the condi cancer wvw meta is just so bad right now: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJATRnUqAtCi1CC+rActgBGh6fiSI17xdDyAOc/2A4kX1oVA-TlCFABt9AAA4IAclSQBuAAOpMKJlOGq+DBHCgi2fINdBkBYZLA-w

That can remove 4 condis per 10sec passively, 1 per 10sec from generosity, it has on-demand 2 condition clear every 20sec from bear, on-demand 1 condition clear on 4 utility skills, and an on-demand full clear from SoR, and uses minus condi duration food. I have been dueling and roaming since beta, and am smart about my cleansing. I still lose fights to good condi eles, necros and mesmers everyday, and I’d put my win % in current meta is around 33% chance to beat a good condi ele, 70% to beat a good condi necro, and 40% on condi mesmers, even bad ones. Why?

Dire and the lack of a need for more than one offensive stat is obviously a big part. Mesmers and eles require immediate, on-demand cleansing of certain bursted conditions (burning/chill and confusion, respectively), and there are only so many on-demand clears. With cover conditions, many little clears just dont cut it. Necros rely more on pressure over time and can be countered better with the passive clearing. While necros have a very long reserve of health to burn through, the ability to the ele to constantly heal and the ability of the mesmer to constantly restealth mean they can outlast their opponent no matter how many clears they bring to the table.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

“Although PU might be only good in small scale fights, it is way too good for those scenarios.”
Your response is to kill the value of mesmer stealth in every scenario for the sake of “small scale fights”, which is Bad Design. Your suggestion as a whole is Bad Design, and you should be ashamed of making it.

“It shall remain a roaming build, but a lot turned down in strength.”
No, it would not be a viable roaming build, taking your suggestions. Mesmers can’t bunker and dps at the same time like ele and guardian, so taking away their stealth would have the same effect as taking it away from thief would: they would no longer be viable in WvW outside the zerg, because they wouldn’t stay alive.

“Everything else is madness”
A nice bit of extreme hyperbole from someone who has demonstrated a very, very poor understanding of design.

There used to be a time when PU stealth didn’t last 6 seconds per skill, and mesmers were still the pinnacle of duelists and roamers. Nerfing PU and fixing The Pledge bug would still leave mesmers as THE apex roaming class, barring some huge HoT specialization upset.

Are you saying mesmers are superior to thieves in roaming?

Raven.9603:

There used to be a time when PU stealth didn’t last 6 seconds per skill, and mesmers were still the pinnacle of duelists and roamers. Nerfing PU and fixing The Pledge bug would still leave mesmers as THE apex roaming class, barring some huge HoT specialization upset.

When was that? Last I remember the apex roamers were thieves during that time. You saw condi mesmers sure but most people could outrun them to either escape or beat them to wherever they were going. Thieves though, only a nike warrior could out run them and now no-one can outrun a thief except another thief.

As a mesmer who used to roam without traveler runes (and still do post specs) I can honestly say that speed and stealth are the keys to roaming. You can make up for a lack of one with the other but if you’re against a class that matches you on one and exceeds you on the other you will likely lose. Mesmer pre specs had low stealth even with PU (which was a big cost to power builds) and low speed which meant they were pretty poor solo roamers. Groups they were better as they could get speed and stealth from others.

Nerfing PU will result in thieves becoming the apex roamers again, not that they aren’t still, just that they have stiff competition from mesmers now.

I’m not going to argue semantics with the statements of the OP.

However

1. WvW since beta was NEVER categorized as balanced. Expecting so and wanting it to be so is silly.

2. Perplexity runes are not available in PvP.

3. A ton of the PU (especially PU/Insp) builds are a reaction to the meta. I think there would be a lot less of this if the risk of not running PU was not “Oh I got burned /gg if cleanse priority is bad”

Also if we are comparing stealth → Reveal hurts mesmer more than any other class that has access to stealth, because of the time between cast and effective damage/pressure it is easier to capitalize on and gain momentum.