Guild Wars 2

anet is just telling us :
we kittened balance patch again as usual .
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Balance-Changes-Upcoming

To help compensate for these general reductions, we’ll be increasing both damage and a few different baseline boon durations.

so Signet of inspiration now will do 100 damage to something .or scepter speed buff 5% on skill 2 .enjoy .

btw anet basically killed inspiration line GMs for wvw purpose while rev and guard are the main issue there.(melee train was meta for 4 years and only grew stronger . yet anet is going to nerf other classes coz people started using them .

im going to take a break anyway .

Note : mes position in raid is not the main problem i have with this so called balance patch . So either mirror double mes will be a thing , i will not feel different.

I cant say im surprised, it was horribly busted in WvW once you hit 20-25+ people and have a few boonshares operating. Everyone in the zerg has 1min of quickness, 15 seconds of resistance, and 12 stacks of stab for 15 seconds.

It’s another reason Anet should shift to balancing by game mode. PvE, PvP, WvW, they are not alike, no matter how much Anet wants them to be.

I’ll wait for the actual changes to develop an official position on this. As with most things, this could be implemented in a fashion that is healthy for the game.

As with most things, it probably won’t be.

Still, a broken clock is right twice per day. We’ll see.

Seems like they are going after boon share. I’m not surprised nor concerned.

The druid nerf Inc is nice to see tbh

Azukas.1426:

Seems like they are going after boon share. I’m not surprised nor concerned.

The druid nerf Inc is nice to see tbh

Boonshare is broken beyond belief in WvW. However, nerfing SoI in PvE will lead to either revenants being removed from the meta or revenants and mesmers being removed from the meta.

If ever there was a time to split balance the modes, this is it.

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

Seems like they are going after boon share. I’m not surprised nor concerned.

The druid nerf Inc is nice to see tbh

Boonshare is broken beyond belief in WvW. However, nerfing SoI in PvE will lead to either revenants being removed from the meta or revenants and mesmers being removed from the meta.

If ever there was a time to split balance the modes, this is it.

Objectively speaking the ability to share upto every boon in the game and keep it at close to permanent uptime on not just 4 people but 10 is completely overpowered no matter which game mode you’re in. The only thing is Gorseval (for the most part) and every other raid boss doesn’t complain about it.

However the problem I have is that as you say a change like this will force a mirror comp with 2 mesmers and 100% quickness and alacrity uptime. This leads to the forcing out and changing of many builds. PS war might (get it?) become condi PS and pretty much ele will dominate the DPS spots with you only switching to necros for easy condi management.

I think this patch is going to either be a great patch to bring many people back or it’s going to destroy the raid scene…you know the one full of bored people who log in once a week only.

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

Seems like they are going after boon share. I’m not surprised nor concerned.

The druid nerf Inc is nice to see tbh

Boonshare is broken beyond belief in WvW. However, nerfing SoI in PvE will lead to either revenants being removed from the meta or revenants and mesmers being removed from the meta.

If ever there was a time to split balance the modes, this is it.

I disagree. Its not balanced, it is very strong, but I don’t believe it is broken beyond belief. What is broken is the ridiculously easy access to boon duration after HoT (even without facet of nature, the new sigils/runes and commanders gear make it almost trivial to get 100% boon duration by yourself anyway) and the boon generation spam going on.

The core problem here, in my eyes, is that HoT classes are farting out boons left and right, and most of them are being farted out passively. Of course boon share looks broken beyond belief when you consider how brokenly easy it is for classes to access relatively high durations of the most powerful boons in the game now. Unless the boon generation is addressed as well this balance patch will at best sidestep the issue without actually addressing it, and at worse it will just destroy mesmers and Revs (because if SoI is nerfed I have a hard time believing it will be the only thing nerfed for us).

Fay.2357:

I’ll wait for the actual changes to develop an official position on this. As with most things, this could be implemented in a fashion that is healthy for the game.

And this is all we can and should say about the topic for now. If the shared base Quickness is 10s, it’ll be 20s with boon duration (“now” that it’s a fixed duration it will be affected by it) wich wouldn’t change anything at all.

I’m also curious how they will buff our dps. Traits? Basic mechanics? Or just another flat +5% dmg buff that won’t change nothing at all :|

We don’t know, we’ll have to wait and we will see on Tuesday. But what we now know for sure: ANet truly knows how to introduce a spooky Halloween :’D

Just look at Ranger for inspiration.
don't hate on my pun

For some reason I’m really enjoying the thought of Signet of inspiration doing 100 damage to the Mesmer.

Anyway if they are putting a limit on the duration of SoI then they should also have it affect the Mesmer as well. Not much else to say until we know the actual changes except my gut says it will fix 0 of the Mesmers problems.

Xyonon.3987:

Fay.2357:

I’ll wait for the actual changes to develop an official position on this. As with most things, this could be implemented in a fashion that is healthy for the game.

And this is all we can and should say about the topic for now. If the shared base Quickness is 10s, it’ll be 20s with boon duration (“now” that it’s a fixed duration it will be affected by it) wich wouldn’t change anything at all.

I’m also curious how they will buff our dps. Traits? Basic mechanics? Or just another flat +5% dmg buff that won’t change nothing at all :|

We don’t know, we’ll have to wait and we will see on Tuesday. But what we now know for sure: ANet truly knows how to introduce a spooky Halloween :’D

I thought signet of inspiration just copied your boons and didn’t benefit directly from boon duration. For example, If you used well of action you would get 6 seconds of quickness instead of 3 with 100% boon duration. You could then use SoI to copy that 6 seconds to allies, not 12. However, if this is the case, and the rumor of a 6 sec quickness cap on SoI is true, then if you had chrono runes, placed well of action, and then used SoI, you would still only copy 6 sec of quickness to allies when you used SoI.

Azukas.1426:

Seems like they are going after boon share. I’m not surprised nor concerned.

The druid nerf Inc is nice to see tbh

About mesmer itself and depending on numbers/calculations/rest of the changes it can either:

-Change nothing and afterall 1 mesmer can still mantain quickness on 10 ppl in raids (cause ppl still thinks signet is a copy/paste or doubling times but they are not giving as much quickness as they think because of effect stacking limits)

-Make 2 mesmer mandatory making alacrity a more consistent and realistic thing narrowing dps classes and pushing rev out( thief out, hammer guard less appealing, ele/necro the only dpsers)

-Or push mesmer out cause after all calcs made, dps increase from mesmer boons for 4 other players + mesmer dps doesnt payoff and simply bringing another dps class (or dps+support like guard or rev) would be better dps overall.
(currently a mesmer pays off cause it buffs 9 ppl,…. but buffing 4 is quite less than half effectivness).

About druid, to extent of the other classes i mentioned, im worried the most. I really think right now that ranger/druid is the most healthy/balanced class at pve (yes gotl is a tad op but w/e). It have build diversity, power/healing/condi, several variants, a good amount of wep choices, a nice skill cap, a good balance between dps and support, dropping support makes it a appealing dps choice (for condi variant only, sadly), dropping dps brings enhanced support etc…
The only way for druid to get out of this trouble is for Anet to introduce new stats combinations, for example Condi/condi dura/healingpower or even a 4stat with same 3 as before + power or precision for druid to mantain its condi variant, because for now seems zealot will be the way to go.

And this druid nerf will only affect it in pve.. Cause in pvp its meta build (mender amulet) will get buffed. And its in pvp where druid might be considered problematic not pve.

Anet did great with guardian last patch (for pve). Opening new and viable/similarly effective builds (less dps but prot with hammer, or more dps but less support with sword/scepter torch, making it a matter of taste or party/content demandings.
They are doing the opposite with druid, god knows why…

To anet yes means no

I’m always impressed by how much people will cling to broken mechanics that impede the the future development of a class they love.

Obtena.7952:

I’m always impressed by how much people will cling to broken mechanics that impede the the future development of a class they love.

You seem to have missed the fact that the number of mesmers used in all raid groups is going to double as a result of these changes. We’re not getting removed from the meta, it’s thieves and revenants that are really getting shafted here.

Obtena.7952:

I’m always impressed by how much people will cling to broken mechanics that impede the the future development of a class they love.

I cannot speak for everyone, but don’t jump to conclusions here. If ANet “fixes” boon spam problem by nerfing Facet of Nature and SoI then they haven’t fixed anything at all (since its the generation that is the biggest problem. Boon duration, while still powerful, isn’t nearly as powerful if classes weren’t spitting out the most powerful boons every other step), and we have good reason to be kittened off about it.

SoI was strong, but not broken. It was a bit overtuned and a small nerf could not be horrible. But all it did was highlight what was really broken, the constant boon generation from rev and elite specs. If that isn’t addressed and the only “fix” is nerfing SoI and facet of nature then this patch will be nothing but an undeserved nerf for mesmers

Obtena.7952:

I’m always impressed by how much people will cling to broken mechanics that impede the the future development of a class they love.

Very funny 10/10 joke

I bet they change SoI to function similar to Sand squall-

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Squall

Be something like “increase the duration of all boons currently existing on you and your allies by 5 seconds”.

Xstein.2187:

I thought signet of inspiration just copied your boons and didn’t benefit directly from boon duration. For example, If you used well of action you would get 6 seconds of quickness instead of 3 with 100% boon duration. You could then use SoI to copy that 6 seconds to allies, not 12. However, if this is the case, and the rumor of a 6 sec quickness cap on SoI is true, then if you had chrono runes, placed well of action, and then used SoI, you would still only copy 6 sec of quickness to allies when you used SoI.

It won’t be “copying” the duration anymore with the future patch. If it’s a fixed duration let’s say 6s Quickness if the target has Quickness, it’ll definitly be affected by boonduration. However …

Mikkel.8427:

I bet they change SoI to function similar to Sand squall-

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Squall

Be something like “increase the duration of all boons currently existing on you and your allies by 5 seconds”.

… if this is the case, then boonduration won’t be doing anything to it. :| And it’s quite likely that it will work like this.

I have a feeling it will be much easier for them to simply copy the functionalty of “We Heal As One!” since that functions much more closely to SoI than sand squall.

If that’s the case then boon duration will likely still have an effect.

OriOri.8724:

…

I partly agree with you. But I think that there is more to it.

3 things happend with HoT and the trait rework before that.

• They reintroduced boon duration through stats on armor instead of runes
• Facet of Nature happened
• Illusionary Inspiration was added.

Before that, even with classes pooping out boons like crazy, SoI never really was an issue. Therefore, I’m pretty sad to see a unique skill being nerfed in its functionality.

Instead…

• Boon duration on food and armor has to be standardized
• FoN was stupid to begin with and deserves a nerf or rework (e.g. self-only)
• Before nerfing SoI itself ANet should consider reworking Illusionary Inspiration

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

I’m always impressed by how much people will cling to broken mechanics that impede the the future development of a class they love.

I cannot speak for everyone, but don’t jump to conclusions here. If ANet “fixes” boon spam problem by nerfing Facet of Nature and SoI then they haven’t fixed anything at all (since its the generation that is the biggest problem. Boon duration, while still powerful, isn’t nearly as powerful if classes weren’t spitting out the most powerful boons every other step), and we have good reason to be kittened off about it.

SoI was strong, but not broken. It was a bit overtuned and a small nerf could not be horrible. But all it did was highlight what was really broken, the constant boon generation from rev and elite specs. If that isn’t addressed and the only “fix” is nerfing SoI and facet of nature then this patch will be nothing but an undeserved nerf for mesmers

I’m not suggesting it’s THE fix, but there is no way your going to have a reasonable report with Anet to discuss making the class better when there are obviously stupid tricks that a class can do. That’s not just a statement based on this change … it occurs all the time in this game and in others. You’re not going to get the good stuff the class needs while these kinds of things exist.

I mean, complain when the class isn’t good … but then complain when the obviously broken stuff is to be fixed? That’s silly. No one should defend that kind of thinking.

Obtena.7952:

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

I’m always impressed by how much people will cling to broken mechanics that impede the the future development of a class they love.

I cannot speak for everyone, but don’t jump to conclusions here. If ANet “fixes” boon spam problem by nerfing Facet of Nature and SoI then they haven’t fixed anything at all (since its the generation that is the biggest problem. Boon duration, while still powerful, isn’t nearly as powerful if classes weren’t spitting out the most powerful boons every other step), and we have good reason to be kittened off about it.

SoI was strong, but not broken. It was a bit overtuned and a small nerf could not be horrible. But all it did was highlight what was really broken, the constant boon generation from rev and elite specs. If that isn’t addressed and the only “fix” is nerfing SoI and facet of nature then this patch will be nothing but an undeserved nerf for mesmers

I’m not suggesting it’s THE fix, but there is no way your going to have a reasonable report with Anet to discuss making the class better when there are obviously stupid tricks that a class can do. That’s not just a statement based on this change … it occurs all the time in this game and in others. You’re not going to get the good stuff the class needs while these kinds of things exist.

I mean, complain when the class isn’t good … but then complain when the obviously broken stuff is to be fixed? That’s silly. No one should defend that kind of thinking.

I don’t think SoI is broken though. It only seems broken because of the ridiculously high durations you can get on boons before sharing them through facet of nature and all of the new ways to access boon duration in HoT. Illusionary inspiration is probably broken, but the signet is not. The signet just highlights what is really broken, and that is that access to high amounts of boon duration and access to the most powerful boons in the game is stupidly broken right now.

OriOri.8724:

I don’t think SoI is broken though. It only seems broken because of the ridiculously high durations you can get on boons before sharing them through facet of nature and all of the new ways to access boon duration in HoT.

… and you don’t think that synergy between giving boons on Mes and making them ridiculously duration on Rev is part of the reason Anet was specifically talking Rev and Mesmer changes in that communication?

I don’t care about whatever label you want to give it, but clearly, Anet thinks getting tons of boons and having them last excessive amounts of time is unintended, hence they fix they are going to make. What ever you want to label that as, it still makes no sense to want to hold on tools that relate to unintended effects in the game, then on the other hand cry that the class is hard done by because of ‘no damage’ or ‘too hard to play.’ I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen the cycle where a class gets the fixes on broken tools before any dev would consider building it back up. Stacking good fixes on broken tools simply isn’t an option.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t care about whatever label you want to give it, but clearly, Anet thinks getting tons of boons and having them last excessive amounts of time is unintended, hence they fix they are going to make.

This is true. The question is how to actually solve the issue in a reasonable way.

Obtena.7952:

What ever you want to label that as, it still makes no sense to want to hold on tools that relate to unintended effects in the game, then on the other hand cry that the class is hard done by because of ‘no damage’ or ‘too hard to play.’ I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen the cycle where a class gets the fixes on broken tools before any dev would consider building it back up. Stacking good fixes on broken tools simply isn’t an option.

It might indeed be a moot point to discuss why SoI should stay the way it is and Facet of Nature has to go just because SoI has been there first. This doesn’t change the fact, though, that SoI is worthless if there are no long duration boons. Changing SoI is an easy fix for WvW. But it doesn’t change the integral underlying issue. SoI isn’t broken. Boon generation is.

The reason why many Mesmers are so annoyed is because we can’t apply boons too well to begin with. SoI gave us a niche and a unique mechanic to provide boons. And it will be taken away.

So far we don’t know if the damage compensation which is being advertised might make up for it. Maybe it will, which would be a nice change for Mesmers which objectively have been at the bottom of the food change in most game modes longer than most other classes during the lifetime of GW2 so far. But it doesn’t change the fact that we will lose something unique to us. And personally, I’m not too optimistic taking the last few class balance patches and the current – I’ll use this term losely – class balance ‘speed’ into consideration.

At least someone gets it, I was starting to wonder if I was going crazy or not……

SoI illustrates the problem, that doesn’t make SoI broken. I will grant that illusionary inspiration is probably broken, but SoI itself is not. It only appears broken due to the excessive boon generation of long lasting boons (which is a two fold problem, coming both from ridiculously easy access to boon duration and also from elite specs and rev/herald spitting out boons like they are nothing).

Xaylin.1860:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t care about whatever label you want to give it, but clearly, Anet thinks getting tons of boons and having them last excessive amounts of time is unintended, hence they fix they are going to make.

This is true. The question is how to actually solve the issue in a reasonable way.

Obtena.7952:

What ever you want to label that as, it still makes no sense to want to hold on tools that relate to unintended effects in the game, then on the other hand cry that the class is hard done by because of ‘no damage’ or ‘too hard to play.’ I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen the cycle where a class gets the fixes on broken tools before any dev would consider building it back up. Stacking good fixes on broken tools simply isn’t an option.

It might indeed be a moot point to discuss why SoI should stay the way it is and Facet of Nature has to go just because SoI has been there first. This doesn’t change the fact, though, that SoI is worthless if there are no long duration boons. Changing SoI is an easy fix for WvW. But it doesn’t change the integral underlying issue. SoI isn’t broken. Boon generation is.

The reason why many Mesmers are so annoyed is because we can’t apply boons too well to begin with. SoI gave us a niche and a unique mechanic to provide boons. And it will be taken away.

So far we don’t know if the damage compensation which is being advertised might make up for it. Maybe it will, which would be a nice change for Mesmers which objectively have been at the bottom of the food change in most game modes longer than most other classes during the lifetime of GW2 so far. But it doesn’t change the fact that we will lose something unique to us. And personally, I’m not too optimistic taking the last few class balance patches and the current – I’ll use this term losely – class balance ‘speed’ into consideration.

I think that’s exactly what makes SoI a good target … it’s a niche tool for a class that isn’t particularly well supported for boon distribution in the first place. I’m not sure why it would annoy people to have a nerf on a tool with a poorly supported game mechanic. It’s junk like this that make the tool and not the class, the desirable feature. That’s not a healthy approach for a class to have.

Obtena.7952:

Xaylin.1860:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t care about whatever label you want to give it, but clearly, Anet thinks getting tons of boons and having them last excessive amounts of time is unintended, hence they fix they are going to make.

This is true. The question is how to actually solve the issue in a reasonable way.

Obtena.7952:

What ever you want to label that as, it still makes no sense to want to hold on tools that relate to unintended effects in the game, then on the other hand cry that the class is hard done by because of ‘no damage’ or ‘too hard to play.’ I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen the cycle where a class gets the fixes on broken tools before any dev would consider building it back up. Stacking good fixes on broken tools simply isn’t an option.

It might indeed be a moot point to discuss why SoI should stay the way it is and Facet of Nature has to go just because SoI has been there first. This doesn’t change the fact, though, that SoI is worthless if there are no long duration boons. Changing SoI is an easy fix for WvW. But it doesn’t change the integral underlying issue. SoI isn’t broken. Boon generation is.

The reason why many Mesmers are so annoyed is because we can’t apply boons too well to begin with. SoI gave us a niche and a unique mechanic to provide boons. And it will be taken away.

So far we don’t know if the damage compensation which is being advertised might make up for it. Maybe it will, which would be a nice change for Mesmers which objectively have been at the bottom of the food change in most game modes longer than most other classes during the lifetime of GW2 so far. But it doesn’t change the fact that we will lose something unique to us. And personally, I’m not too optimistic taking the last few class balance patches and the current – I’ll use this term losely – class balance ‘speed’ into consideration.

I think that’s exactly what makes SoI a good target … it’s a niche tool for a class that isn’t particularly well supported for boon distribution in the first place. I’m not sure why it would annoy people to have a nerf on a tool with a poorly supported game mechanic. It’s junk like this that make the tool and not the class, the desirable feature. That’s not a healthy approach for a class to have.

Primarily because it won’t actually fix the problem.

For example, the WvW group I raid with is responding to this change by planning to boost our personal boon duration on gear, along with some small build and rotation changes. As a result we will still have permanent or almost permanent uptime on:

• Quickness
• Swiftness
• Vigor
• Protection
• Retaliation
• Regeneration
• Fury
• Might

We will still be able to burst up to about 15-20 seconds of resistance as well. The only thing that actually gets hit by this nerf is stability stacks, and you can play around that anyway.

So basically, this nerf doesn’t fix the problem at all. Since the massive boon production itself isn’t being impacted, this simply requires us to adjust how we’re playing with those boons to achieve the same result.

No it’s not the whole fix to the problem, but that’s not really what we are talking about here anyways. We only can go by what we have been told so there isn’t any point to assume Anet is attempting to fix the whole problem of boon distribution and duration by just changing only two skills in the game. That would be silly.

I think we can anticipate a number of changes that give access to easy boons and durations over a significant number of players, based on the information we got from this communication. Saying that this single change won’t fix the whole problem, so it shouldn’t happen is tunnel vision.

Obtena.7952:

No it’s not the whole fix to the problem, but that’s not really what we are talking about here anyways. We only can go by what we have been told so there isn’t any point to assume Anet is attempting to fix the whole problem of boon distribution and duration by just changing only two skills in the game. That would be silly.

That is such backwards thinking. What we are talking about here is a stated nerf to a boon sharing skill, without any statement that the actual problem will be addressed. That is why we are upset. Nerfing SoI will not fix the problem, because it was never the problem, it just highlighted it.

And if ANet isn’t trying to fix the boon duration and boon generation problems, then why on earth would they be nerfing SoI in the first place? Fact is we were told previously that this balance patch would focus heavily on WvW balance, and the perma boon meta in WvW is beyond broken and is not balanced, which means that this balance patch will try to address that. But based on what we have been told so far, the changes that we have heard about are not going to even address the problem ( nerfing Facet of Nature is at least something to address boon duration).

There is ample cause to be upset over what we were told to expect. Also, if ANet was indeed planning on nerfing boon generation as well, then why wouldn’t they have said that, or responded in the balance thread yet? Its looking an awful lot like the biggest change will be them nerfing SoI and hoping that it “fixes” the problem.

This is the point where I remind you that players aren’t some group that Anet needs to consult with to change the game to make sure they ‘get it right’. They don’t need to state the actual problem that needs to be addressed because they have their approach and they are following it; it’s not a requirement that players agree and understand it. Their really wouldn’t be any point to giving us a problem statement because they aren’t looking for our feedback on how it should be fixed anyways. It’s a typical consumer relationship.

Putting that aside, I don’t think this is as complex as you are trying to make it. You don’t actually need some problem statement to see what’s going on here. What reason would Anet have to nerf boon duration and sharing? Answer: because they think there is too much boon duration and sharing. People always want to make up some complex reason so they can argue Anet’s solution is wrong. Reality is that it really isn’t that hard to infer what’s going on here.

Obtena.7952:

I think that’s exactly what makes SoI a good target … it’s a niche tool for a class that isn’t particularly well supported for boon distribution in the first place. I’m not sure why it would annoy people to have a nerf on a tool with a poorly supported game mechanic. It’s junk like this that make the tool and not the class, the desirable feature. That’s not a healthy approach for a class to have.

SoI isn’t a good target and it’s not the right target. It’s an easy and convenient target.

Being niche or unique doesn’t mean it is a poorly supported game mechanic. It’s just unique. That’s all to it. And again: Nerfing SoI doesn’t solve the problem. It just lessens the symptons. If that makes Mesmers one trick ponies – which we always have been – is a totally different topic.

Obtena.7952:

No it’s not the whole fix to the problem, but that’s not really what we are talking about here anyways. […] Saying that this single change won’t fix the whole problem, so it shouldn’t happen is tunnel vision.

Actually, that’s exactly the point. SoI just is a pawn being sacrificed. Why would we want to lose an interesting mechanic even though it doesn’t solve the issue?

If you argued that ANet currently doesn’t have the resources to rework all the gear and food and needs a fast ‘solution’, sure. I get that argument. But let’s not be delusional and assume that SoI will ever be reinstated if all the mess with boon duration is sorted out in a more reasonable manner later on.

Obtena.7952:

This is the point where I remind you that players aren’t some group that Anet needs to consult with to change the game to make sure they ‘get it right’. They don’t need to state the actual problem that needs to be addressed because they have their approach and they are following it; it’s not a requirement that players agree and understand it.

No, they don’t. But that doesn’t make them right. And it doesn’t make you right.

I think it’s perfectly legitimate to discuss the teased changes and (dis)approve.

What Anet need to do is look at how boon spreading (and condition spreading!), can be used to create compounding effects, and think of a clever way to curb it without destroying it. Because it is interesting and I don’t want it to go completely.

Xaylin.1860:

Obtena.7952:

I think that’s exactly what makes SoI a good target … it’s a niche tool for a class that isn’t particularly well supported for boon distribution in the first place. I’m not sure why it would annoy people to have a nerf on a tool with a poorly supported game mechanic. It’s junk like this that make the tool and not the class, the desirable feature. That’s not a healthy approach for a class to have.

SoI isn’t a good target and it’s not the right target. It’s an easy and convenient target.

Being niche or unique doesn’t mean it is a poorly supported game mechanic.

Easy and Convenient might be what Anet are after. and no, I didn’t say boon sharing was a poorly supported game mechanic, I was agreeing with the poster I was replying to that Mesmers don’t apply boons well in the first place. Perhaps that wasn’t clear, but that’s what my meaning was.

Xaylin.1860:

Obtena.7952:

No it’s not the whole fix to the problem, but that’s not really what we are talking about here anyways. […] Saying that this single change won’t fix the whole problem, so it shouldn’t happen is tunnel vision.

Actually, that’s exactly the point. SoI just is a pawn being sacrificed. Why would we want to lose an interesting mechanic even though it doesn’t solve the issue?

Solve what issue though… can you definitely tell us why it doesn’t solve the issue if we don’t know what it is? Let me take this a step further … if we can assume from the communication that Anet doesn’t like the amount of sharing and duration for boons currently in the game, how can anyone logically argue that changing SoI doesn’t make sense? How does reducing its active effect not address some of the ‘Mesmers share’ of the entire boon sharing problem? It absolutely does.

Xaylin.1860:

Obtena.7952:

This is the point where I remind you that players aren’t some group that Anet needs to consult with to change the game to make sure they ‘get it right’. They don’t need to state the actual problem that needs to be addressed because they have their approach and they are following it; it’s not a requirement that players agree and understand it.

No, they don’t. But that doesn’t make them right. And it doesn’t make you right.

I think it’s perfectly legitimate to discuss the teased changes and (dis)approve.

That’s amusing to say the least … What is so ‘right’ about possessing tools with unintended effects? I can assure you that right or wrong, the second any dev in any game sees something they don’t want happening, it’s getting fixed. If right or wrong is based on the dev’s idea of what is intended or not … I would say this is a pretty ‘right’ thing to do.

You play thief don’t you? Why are you even in here arguing about a class you don’t play since you clearly don’t understand the issue.

I don’t know if we could put it any clearer. Nerfing SoI without nerfing boon generation will not solve the actual problem, meaning that its just another undeserved nerf for mesmers. Its like if the stealth uptime on all of Thief’s skills got halved (or even cut in 3) because PU mesmer was deemed too powerful in WvW. Yes, technically thief could give mesmer a lot of stealth with Shadow Refuge, but nerfing thief wouldn’t address the problem because it stemmed from the PU mesmer build.

That’s the same thing targeting SoI for the perma boon meta is doing. Its avoiding the real issue, and in the end won’t solve anything. Why do you refuse to see that?

It’s not like people are banned from playing multiple professions. I claim to be a Guardian main, but really I just play whichever of my 24 characters tickles my fancy.

All we know about SoI is that it will share finite durations of boons. Honestly this is a good change. It’s not terribly difficult to reach some extremes in edge cases and that is what the change is going to address. Boon Share isn’t an issue, it’s the extremity at which is can occur. Heralds trivialized boon duration by granting 50% for basically free. SoI exacerbated the issue with uncapped sharing.

These changes aren’t going to make the sky fall. SoI is being changed for the same reasons Ranger’s WHaO was changed.

Obtena.7952:

That’s amusing to say the least … What is so ‘right’ about possessing tools with unintended effects? I can assure you that right or wrong, the second any dev in any game sees something they don’t want happening, it’s getting fixed. If right or wrong is based on the dev’s idea of what is intended or not … I would say this is a pretty ‘right’ thing to do.

They did not say SoI got an unintended effect nor that it had an unintended mechanic. That’s something you have been bringing up. They simply stated that they are adjusting boon duration and application for certain classes.

They didn’t write out why they are going to do so but most people are aware of why. The thing is – as has been pointed out exensively in this thread now – that changing SoI is very likely not fixing what they are supposedly trying to fix. It’s just one of the easier levers to pull. It’s a band-aid.

On top of that, as it stands now, it looks like they are actually keeping the mechanic. They are just nerfing it in group scenarios – where the skill is supposed to be good – by standardizing the boon duration. Granted, we don’t know the numbers yet. But unless they aren’t nerfed significantly it won’t make a difference in WvW. If I’m wrong about that… well… yey Mesmers!

Regarding being right or not you are mixing two things, though. A dev has the right to do something. But it doesn’t make it the right thing. I’m not saying players know better. I’m not saying that I know better. But I’m pointing out that there might actually be better ways to solve the actual issue without screwing over Mesmers.

I think it’s clear that we have different points of view regarding SoI. We won’t come to an agreement here. That’s fine. I guess I’m just less dev-obedient and a bit stubborn.

Ghotistyx.6942:

All we know about SoI is that it will share finite durations of boons. Honestly this is a good change. It’s not terribly difficult to reach some extremes in edge cases and that is what the change is going to address. […]

These changes aren’t going to make the sky fall. SoI is being changed for the same reasons Ranger’s WHaO was changed.

Yes, standardizing is a good thing for balance (even though it doesn’t necessarily make a game exciting to play). The issue is, that this one utility is the backbone of Mesmer boon sharing builds. They sky won’t fall. But this teased change has the potential to destroy a whole playstyle for this class without actually impacting the game meta because you still will be able to get your boons elsewhere.

WHAO was a totally different beast because you could bounce your boons back and forth on your own. That’s impossible with one Mesmer alone. It’s true though that SoI clearly has a bigger impact in larger scale fights while WHAO was more of a small scale issue.

Xaylin.1860:

Obtena.7952:

That’s amusing to say the least … What is so ‘right’ about possessing tools with unintended effects? I can assure you that right or wrong, the second any dev in any game sees something they don’t want happening, it’s getting fixed. If right or wrong is based on the dev’s idea of what is intended or not … I would say this is a pretty ‘right’ thing to do.

They did not say SoI got an unintended effect nor that it had an unintended mechanic. That’s something you have been bringing up. They simply stated that they are adjusting boon duration and application for certain classes.

Right … they are just nerfing excessive boon sharing and duration because they LOVE those features being in the game … gotcha!

We were taking about the mechanic which you called unintended. If this were the case they might as well just remove the mechanic itself. But they don’t want to. I guess you are just not willing to make any distinctions in how the boons are provided.

As I said, we obviously got different points of view here. Not going to argue any further.

OriOri.8724:

…Boon duration, while still powerful, isn’t nearly as powerful if classes weren’t spitting out the most powerful boons every other step..

You mean Mesmers that are spitting out most powerful boons, namely Quickness? Its a joke that perma Quickness has became the norm. Perma Fury and 25 might were always there, even before spec patch – but not Quickness. Yes, Quickness wasn’t a boon before, but the moment it was made into a boon should have been the moment SoI was looked at.

OriOri.8724:

SoI was strong, but not broken. It was a bit overtuned and a small nerf could not be horrible. But all it did was highlight what was really broken, the constant boon generation from rev and elite specs. If that isn’t addressed and the only “fix” is nerfing SoI and facet of nature then this patch will be nothing but an undeserved nerf for mesmers.

Boon generation from elite specs is the problem but the fact that you can cast SoI 4 or more times in a row and effectively send 4x of duration/stacks of those boons to everyone is just a symptom? Its the other way around. You are effectively saying SoI is fine and rest of the game is broken, like what?

SoI is an utility skill just like any other, and it should act like it. At the moment its better than most elite skills in the game and is easily the best ‘utility’ skill in the game.

Pregnantman.8259:

OriOri.8724:

…Boon duration, while still powerful, isn’t nearly as powerful if classes weren’t spitting out the most powerful boons every other step..

You mean Mesmers that are spitting out most powerful boons, namely Quickness? Its a joke that perma Quickness has became the norm. Perma Fury and 25 might were always there, even before spec patch – but not Quickness. Yes, Quickness wasn’t a boon before, but the moment it was made into a boon should have been the moment SoI was looked at.

OriOri.8724:

SoI was strong, but not broken. It was a bit overtuned and a small nerf could not be horrible. But all it did was highlight what was really broken, the constant boon generation from rev and elite specs. If that isn’t addressed and the only “fix” is nerfing SoI and facet of nature then this patch will be nothing but an undeserved nerf for mesmers.

Boon generation from elite specs is the problem but the fact that you can cast SoI 4 or more times in a row and effectively send 4x of duration/stacks of those boons to everyone is just a symptom? Its the other way around. You are effectively saying SoI is fine and rest of the game is broken, like what?

SoI is an utility skill just like any other, and it should act like it. At the moment its better than most elite skills in the game and is easily the best ‘utility’ skill in the game.

Again, you are so focused on SoI that you are missing the real problem.

1 – Perma stab, perma protection, perma resistance are much more powerful than perma quickness is. And those are not possible with just SoI because mesmer just does not generate enough of those boons to do it.

2 – SoI is fine. Illusionary inspiration is overtuned, especially considering its just a trait, but that doesn’t make SoI overpowered.

3 – This still wouldn’t be a problem if elite specs weren’t farting out the most powerful boons every other step. Like it or not, chrono can generate a lot of quickness, and I didn’t exclude them. But quickness is hardly as powerful as perma protection, stability, and resistance.

Making Quickness only 50% was weird to begin with, way before they broke it by making it a boon.

But then, boons in general are weird. Why isn’t Might a simple non-stacking “You do 35% more damage flat” and in turn rather rare to acquire? You could notice the graphics effect on someone, and react to that, you’d know that if handled it won’t come back that quickly. Better than those random “Do 20% more damage to enemies under 50% HP”, instead make it proc 15s of Might when you attack a low health target with a single target attack, if target dies the might is instantly removed. Bam, counterplay, easier to notice, concise effects.

imo the changes to soi will focus the mesmer on more power gear as the durarion wont be effected. so this will be the changes anet state to to “more power”
for druid it will mean buff in pvp as the healing power gonna get buffed with mnder being used

so my support mesmer in pvp will be ruine completly – thanks anet (i was the first and gonna be the last who use it)

so once again so build diversity in pvp

so what chorno line gave us (in pvp)
the alacrity support – not that much
quickness share gonna be nerfed
well support build never used

so only shield and healing skill – wow great anet

messiah.1908:

so what chorno line gave us (in pvp)
the alacrity support – not that much
quickness share gonna be nerfed
well support build never used

so only shield and healing skill – wow great anet

Chrono still has clone/phantasm maintenance for shatter spam, passive 25% movement speed and movement condition reduction and don’t forget the epic fail of a balancing point continuum split.

I say it’s an epic fail of a balancing point because it throws out the window balancing by cool down which is one of the main ways of GW2 balance.

I do agree that boon spam is completely out of control with other classes but SoI makes it all worse as well. Looking at it objectively the ability to share every single boon in the game to up to 5 allies for the duration stacking as it is on a 30s base cool down is extremely strong. Only about 5 hours to go before we find out how it is though.

Yeah, Continuum Split in the way they implemented it is rather meh. And needlessly clunky to use.

Just make it “Your elite ability now has two charges”. There, captured the essence of it, and it’d be worlds easier to use.

Or you know, make it an actually cool ability instead of what it is right now. Make it record changes and up to X seconds later I can opt to return to the other timeline which erases everything which happened to me but also everything I’ve done. As far as that is possible ofc.

Carighan.6758:

Yeah, Continuum Split in the way they implemented it is rather meh. And needlessly clunky to use.

Just make it “Your elite ability now has two charges”. There, captured the essence of it, and it’d be worlds easier to use.

Or you know, make it an actually cool ability instead of what it is right now. Make it record changes and up to X seconds later I can opt to return to the other timeline which erases everything which happened to me but also everything I’ve done. As far as that is possible ofc.

It’s more that it’s value in PvP is to double up on whatever powerful elite you have most of the time, same for WvW as well. With PvE it’s use is to spam every utility you have and essentially double up on their effects as much as possible.

I have seen it used in more interesting ways, juking people off cliffs in WvW only to teleport back a second later while they all die. Seen it used to double burst people or burn enemy cool downs in CS for an opening when it ends to deliver the killing blow, seen juking again against high movement targets to teleport to multiple locations and burn they’re movement skills to allow for an escape etc.

There’s lots of interesting things you can use it for just they are usually harder to pull of than cast X, hit F5 during after cast and then burst. I would love to see it go though because we’ve all seen what happened to Moa, it’s balanced around chrono, not around the skills strength, cool down and opportunity/cost and it’s only a matter of time before other powerful things get the same treatment.

Oh wait signet of inspiration….

OriOri.8724:

Again, you are so focused on SoI that you are missing the real problem.

1 – Perma stab, perma protection, perma resistance are much more powerful than perma quickness is. And those are not possible with just SoI because mesmer just does not generate enough of those boons to do it.

2 – SoI is fine. Illusionary inspiration is overtuned, especially considering its just a trait, but that doesn’t make SoI overpowered.

3 – This still wouldn’t be a problem if elite specs weren’t farting out the most powerful boons every other step. Like it or not, chrono can generate a lot of quickness, and I didn’t exclude them. But quickness is hardly as powerful as perma protection, stability, and resistance.

1- Perma Quickness > Perma Prot no contest. You not only have a solid %50 increase to dps, but can also cast any long channeled skill (heals, strong skills balanced by long channel) in the blink of an eye. As for permanent Resistance, you again have SoI to thank for that.

2- SoI cannot be seperated from traits and class itself. So long as Illusionary Inspiration exists, its a part of your usage of SoI, and the fact that it lets you spam the skill is overpowered. Looking at the other end, nerfing Illusionary Inspiration would still nerf SoI, and it would have been perhaps for the better instead of this change – but we will never know.

3- Without SoI we no longer have perma Quickness and Resistance. With Rev also being tuned, major contenders of the boon spam are being brought in line, except for Druid which I admit I don’t know much about. Anyone else is already bound to either mostly stationary targets and attacking (PS warr and hammer DH) or blasting fields (ele) – not to say it wouldn’t be justifiable to nerf them as well, but they are simply outclassed in their boon spamming by Mesmer and Rev.

Xaylin.1860:

We were taking about the mechanic which you called unintended. If this were the case they might as well just remove the mechanic itself. But they don’t want to. I guess you are just not willing to make any distinctions in how the boons are provided.

As I said, we obviously got different points of view here. Not going to argue any further.

There is no reason to remove Boon sharing and Duration increasing mechanics just because of a few skills that boost them beyond what Anet thinks is inappropriate … so no, even in the case where some combinations of mechanics give unintended effects, they don’t need to remove any mechanics to fix that. Simply reducing the skills effects themselves will be enough to remedy this.