Guild Wars 2

This isn’t for everyone. But if you can manage to play a condi AND a shatter build with no DE this is for you:

Link

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW8flknpNtFqxRNcrNSwBZ6A8gIeqIg6WEjKC-TpxCwAVOIAAeAAC3fYbZAEXAAJHBAA

Play it as you would a normal condi build. But don’t forget to shatter because you will get:
- Torment on enemies
- Boons according to the shatter used
- A lot of Vigor (to make up for the loss of minor trait Critical Infusion)

Clones generation shouldn’t be a problem and neither condi removal
It also works with Settler Amulet instead of Rabid (tons of Toughness)
Pros: high survivability, good damage, decent mobility (sigil of speed will surprise you. Stack your condi damage and you will fly)
Cons: lack of De (not for everyone)

Few tweaks.
Changing Vigorous Revelation for MP can work but you need energy sigils
Illusionary Elasticity can be swapped for Illusionary Invigoration
Swappinng Bountifull Disillusionment for PU can still work but will loose the flavour that you get by having 3 traits proccing when shattering.

Thoughts?

So I’ll just assume that you’re taking PU, since BD is simply inferior in every way.

What this build ends up being is precisely the same as a PU conditions 20/20/30 build except worse. This is partly due to your particular trait choices, but also due to the simple fact that Maim is not a good trait.

Firstly, you have less condition removal. You also have less passive pressure from clone deaths. While discussing clone deaths, you happen to lack DE. This means that you will almost never have a proper amount of clones for a good shatter combo. You don’t have mainhand sword either, and this means no good immob for actually landing said shatter combo.

Shatters can be dodged, blocked, evaded, and blinded. Clone-deaths can not. This means that your main condition application is inherently weaker than a clone-death build. I see that you also take debilitating dissipation in this build, which does help. The problem you’ll run into again though is that you simply don’t have clones to be shattering because no DE.

Maim isn’t an effective trait. I love the trait, but it just isn’t good. The problem is that shatters are inherently a massive expenditure of resources. You’re destroying potential defense, potential other offense, potential interrupts, distractions, and potentially burning cooldowns to even create the illusions all for one massive burst. When in a zerker shatter build, landing that one massive burst has a true impact. However, when in a Maim build, landing that combo just….doesn’t do very much. It applies a few stacks of torment and confusion. Sometimes it’ll get cleansed, sometimes it won’t. Either way, it just doesn’t have the oomph to be worth sacrificing all that shatter causes you to sacrifice. Maim isn’t a good trait. It’s a fun trait and it could be a good trait, but it’s not. The bottom line is that anything you can do in a Maim build, I can make you a non-Maim build that does it better and safer.

In reality I wanted to run sword because I completely agree you need a “hook” for landing shatters effectively, apologise on that.

However, as much as I know how important DE is, I wanted a variation because I hate to be dependant on 20 points (sorry, 4 points) in Duelling on a condi build (although sharper images can be good, but not with iWarlock and iMage, hence the reason for dropping the trait line altogether), even if bleeding are procced by all illusions.
Ok, DE is good with debilitating dissipation, but it’s a 4 points wasted in such build, imho.

Again, I kind of agree with you that Main isn’t 100% worth it as GM trait, but it’s the only way for a mesmer to apply torment other than scepter (which I replaced with sword). This in sPVP at least (not sigil torment).

Anyway, I understand BD, Main and VR are sub par talents in their respective slots, but they synergize well, so I tried them and worked fairly decently.

Question. Is there a build that can work without DE, duelling line and PU?
PS: I always avoid PU in favour of CI when possible (or other talents like BI or CD), not because ppl say it’s lame but because I find it boring. One more reason why I chose BD.

trooper.2650:

Question. Is there a build that can work without DE, duelling line and PU?

Yes….but.

Any build that avoids the dueling line entirely is going to have to be very specialized in some non-traditional ways. The dueling line really contains a lot of baseline traits for all power-based builds. You’ve got DE for shatter builds and clone-death builds (these
don’t really work without DE). You’ve got phantasmal fury for phantasm builds (you can run without this, but you suffer significant damage reduction). You’ve also got the cooldown trait for sword here, 1200 range manipulations (which is probably almost as commonly taken as DE), along with even some other less common stuff like mantra cooldowns, which is something taken in a lot of less traditional builds.

The dueling line is just one big mix of all sorts of very useful and/or strong traits that fit into most any type of build, on top of being a strong source of precision and critical damage.

It’s easy to make builds without PU though. I feel like some people come to depend on PU too much in any type of build. It’s an incredibly strong defensive trait, but it’s simply not necessary in all situations. I assumed in my first analysis that you’ll take PU over BD because PU is just superior to BD in almost every way in terms of boon support.

trooper.2650:

Again, I kind of agree with you that Main isn’t 100% worth it as GM trait, but it’s the only way for a mesmer to apply torment other than scepter (which I replaced with sword). This in sPVP at least (not sigil torment).

Yes, it is the only way for mesmer to apply torment other than scepter. This fact doesn’t diminish the problem that it’s just not good.

trooper.2650:

However, as much as I know how important DE is, I wanted a variation because I hate to be dependant on 20 points (sorry, 4 points) in Duelling on a condi build

You’re not reliant on DE just because you’re trying for a condition build, you’re reliant on it because you’re trying to make a shatter build.

Pyroathiest.4168:

You’re not reliant on DE just because you’re trying for a condition build, you’re reliant on it because you’re trying to make a shatter build.

I remember a certain shatterlock which won the contest of the month…

Pyro, don’t come up with “yes, but those shatters are powerful because it’s a power based build” or things like this… the concept is the same. Shattering without DE is difficult for any builds, be it condi or power based. If that one worked I do not see why other experimental builds shouldn’t.

My impression is that since you are very disappointed with ANET (“meh” new traits and not fixing old stuff) you are discarding builds which use those new GM traits and try to make them work, with too much ease. I accept your criticisms and you are probably right, this build is as bad as many others that get posted (probably even worst) and probably will never see the light. But the concept on paper stands and cannot be trashed without being tested. Alas, I haven’t fully tested it either, just had a quick run and thought it could be a nice variation for whoever wanted to try new traits with conditions

This is the maim build I use for spvp, high mobility, tons of fun. Ultimately Pyro is correct the maim trait is weak but don’t give up, I actually prefer this build over power shatter just for the fun factor.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpRttpxMNcrNitBZyOcBUPkfsySGghB-TZRHwAp3fIZZAyHBABXEAAPAAA

trooper.2650:

Pyroathiest.4168:

You’re not reliant on DE just because you’re trying for a condition build, you’re reliant on it because you’re trying to make a shatter build.

I remember a certain shatterlock which won the contest of the month…

Shatterlock was an interrupt build with a sprinkle of shatter on the side.

trooper.2650:

Pyro, don’t come up with “yes, but those shatters are powerful because it’s a power based build” or things like this… the concept is the same. Shattering without DE is difficult for any builds, be it condi or power based. If that one worked I do not see why other experimental builds shouldn’t.

They’re not powerful simply because it’s power based. Zerker shatter, as I said, has oomph. When you successfully pull off a strong shatter combo, it has a solid and massive effect. You can burst someone into the dirt with zerker shatter.

With Maim, you have the exact same expenditure of resources, but nowhere near the same results. This isn’t a matter of power vs condition damage, this is a matter of hefty vs wimpy.

trooper.2650:

My impression is that since you are very disappointed with ANET (“meh” new traits and not fixing old stuff) you are discarding builds which use those new GM traits and try to make them work, with too much ease. I accept your criticisms and you are probably right, this build is as bad as many others that get posted (probably even worst) and probably will never see the light. But the concept on paper stands and cannot be trashed without being tested. Alas, I haven’t fully tested it either, just had a quick run and thought it could be a nice variation for whoever wanted to try new traits with conditions

I’ve actually used Maim quite extensively, mainly because I don’t like the interrupt playstyle (power block), the dueling and inspiration traits are hilariously bad, and the chaos trait is objectively worse than PU in every way…leaving Maim.

I’ve really tried it. I’ve used multiple different variations of multiple different builds. It’s really a fun trait. I honestly enjoy using it, but I also understand that it’s simply not good.

Hi trooper,

I’ve also spent quite a bit of time testing out the new gm traits and try to come up with a build that works. I still believe BD and Maim is a very good combo. However, BD, as others already pointed out to me, almost screams for power-based build, you can’t really go full condition with BD, whereas Maim would favor conditions.
I have tried to go hybrid with celestial or mix between power/condi gear and rely on might stacking to bring up the dmg to the decent level. While not saying its a dead end, I didn’t find much hope in that direction.

Now if u consider a power-based build with same traitspread, using both BD and Maim, how would you make it work?

This is probably a silly idea but since Pyro said, this build is gonna be non-traditional, so its worth looking into. xD

First of all, it goes without saying u can naturally stack might quite easily with this build, (F2 shatter with BD, shattered strength minor trait, staff aa). You also have good access to fury which means you need to something to make use of these boons for burst dmg. While this is a shatter build, the shatter wont be your main burst, because you already use it to buff u up, and you can’t shatter again so soon to make use of those buffs because of low-clone generation rate. So we’re looking at some other forms of burst dmg.

And what could that be? Phantasm? Yeah but which one? Iwarlock
Iwarlock hits harder with more condition types on target which in this case, you can unload a barrage of conditions on target including confusion and torment on shatter, burn, vuln., bleed, weakness, chilled, blind, almost all conditions in this game except Fear. Ofc some of these conditions will be easier to maintain than others, lets just say you can maintain consistently 5 conditions (confusion, torment, bleed, burn, and vulnerability) — thats 50% more dmg with iWarlock. Ofc your conditions wont hit hard, they’re just there as debuffs while with shatter you gain might and fury.

Also, since shatter is now just a mean to buff your dmg up, you dont really need a full 3-clone shatter, but rather more important that your clones can shatter on target to inflict the conditions. So I wouldn’t hesitate to shatter 1 or 2 clones if they’re right on target.

I hope you follow my train of thought this far. I’m a bit sleepy so. But yeah, think about it?

Just a modification of your build based on the idea I just went thru: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW8flknpNtFqxRNcrNSwBZ6A8gIeqPg6WEjKC-TZhFwAAOCAv2fIwDA4wFBYaZAAZhFwAAOCABeAAHuIAr2fYaZAA

@Pyro: you as well Pyro, what do you think? Would it work?

Well, I appreciate the effort to be constructive. And to be honest that, from a power PoW, is a completely different way of looking at it. Will it work? I’ll answer tomorrow, but it’s a start. Thank you Keenlam

@Nazer. I tried that. It was fun but here Pyro is 100% spot on: focus solely on Maim and you realize how weak that GM trait is. Unfortunately, I must say

Ok 1 more thing before I go bed:
maybe try Scepter/Sword for 2nd set, you lose the stealth and immobilize, but you have 1 more way to apply torment, much better clone generation rate for shatter or trigger DD, and while Scepter is popular in condi builds, all of its skills actually scale nicely with power. Scepter #3 can even be used to bait out 1 dodge to up the chance they cannot dodge iWarlock.

Cheers,

well i dont think this trait is that bad
yeah on clone deaths are not that risky but tho either with sword and and lot of dodges kinda offensiv or just realy slow.
torment on shatter rly goes well in hybrid builds
you just get so much off burst and with more dmg conditions( bleed burn and torment ) so even condi isnt that slow in dmg.
i would play it with normal shatter traits ( http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQJAWBlkntUNmphbtRMNIUPmzsUSGgGUySMOA-TZBGwAh2fAwhAwwFA4wTAgZZAA) cause shatters are played offensively and the caos and inspiration trait line are way to defensively.
the tooltip say it just deel like 470 dmg, but thats wrong cause its 4,3/4 duration which is getting rounded up to 5 and its from every clone. with more might youll get like enough condition dmg ( you can mostly keep like 10 stacks)
i think its still weaker then normal shatter gameplay but just fresh to play something new

This purely from a PvP perspective …

OP – I’ve run a very similar trait spread for a few days now after over a week of experimenting with BD builds. I thought about sharing it after getting some good in-game feedback but I’m not 100% confident in it yet (still testing).

I’ve run a boon share, power based and IP based build with BD but I can say that this condition spec here is the strongest BD build I’ve run, BUT I’m running some very key differences from you that I’ll detail here:

• Scepter vs Sword. While iLeap is certainly helpful in landing shatters, it’s definitely not mandatory. Among other key things, scepter helps with your clone generation, which you really need in this build without DE.
• Mender’s Purity vs Vigorous Revelation. If you can find a way to make the build work with VR w/out that condi-removal, by all means. I stay alive MUCH longer with MP. Besides, I’ve tried (really) to make a boon share build work with BD, and it just doesn’t very well. I’ve accepted the fact I’m going to have a largely selfish BD build.
• Illusionary Invigoration vs Illusionary Elasticity. It’s paramount that Ill Inv is taken for more shatters. The only way I’d think about switching to IE would be if Anet fixes IE for our clones.
• Mirror Images, Mantra of Resolve and Decoy (or Blink) for utilities. Mirror Images is probably the most important aspect of this build in order to keep as many illusions up as possible for shattering. Disenchanter just doesn’t work for me in this build, but if you can make it work, by all means.
• Celestial Amulet vs Rabid. It may seem like an odd choice, but it’s not. It works, and decently. Just try it out and you’ll see what I mean.
• Rune of Balthazar vs Undead. You have so much more going for you with this set, more condition output primarily, but the quickness is amazing at 20% and extra burn duration on prestige burn is great.
• Runes of strength/battle and doom. These immensely help your damage and condition output.

Every one of those bullets have been vital to the build working cohesively for me. Most of those choices have a lot of explanation behind them. If there is expressed interest, I will go into more detail on them and skill rotations/strategies/combos I’ve discovered so far. It would literally take a full post.

Yes mobility sux, it just is what it is. In PvP it’s not that big a deal though and you at least have phase retreat blink.

Here’s the build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpTtFpxRNcrNSwBZ6A8gIeqPg6W8jKC-TJRGwAAeCAZ2fgwFBYZZAA

Final disclaimer – I don’t like BD as it is currently – it’s underpowered for a GM trait, BUT I think a build like this could potentially work and has worked decently for me so far (pending further testing).

Yesterday I spent few hours on this. I tried Keenlam approach (berserker+lyssa) but I wasn’t confortable with it. Conditions were there, but did not deal damage and ppl, specially warriors with high regen could just ignore them. Direct damage wasn’t where it was supposed to be either and this said warrior was having fun of me constantly spamming “DD” in chat. How humiliating

Then I tried carrion and rabid and they both worked decently. Conditions were putting pressure and I was fairly happy. I noticed the lack of clone generation (did not take mirror images and this is a mistake from my part) and this is by far the biggest downside. Also, torment from Main do not last long enough and this is ridicolous. It forces you to go domination for longer conditions and this makes me think that if you run shatter, be it power or conditions, you cannot move from standard 4/4/0/0/6, and still do not know if 20% duration is enough to make Main 100% appealing

I did quite like BD though but as someone already said it is more of a power trait than conditions.

Overall the build, even with rabid/conditions amulet doesn’t ramp up well. It’s okeish but limited mainly by the lack of DE, which is imho “the” most important talent we have (and to be honest should be a core feature when creating a mesmer from lvl1 or at least dropped down a tier).

I have not tried skcamow approach yet, but will surely give it a go. For now I am enjoying conditions builds (running 0/4/6/0/4 atm) and I like experimenting from time to time so I will surely not discard the new talents quite yet and try different solutions

skcamow.3527:

This purely from a PvP perspective …

OP – I’ve run a very similar trait spread for a few days now after over a week of experimenting with BD builds. I thought about sharing it after getting some good in-game feedback but I’m not 100% confident in it yet (still testing).

I’ve run a boon share, power based and IP based build with BD but I can say that this condition spec here is the strongest BD build I’ve run, BUT I’m running some very key differences from you that I’ll detail here:

• Scepter vs Sword. While iLeap is certainly helpful in landing shatters, it’s definitely not mandatory. Among other key things, scepter helps with your clone generation, which you really need in this build without DE.
• Mender’s Purity vs Vigorous Revelation. If you can find a way to make the build work with VR w/out that condi-removal, by all means. I stay alive MUCH longer with MP. Besides, I’ve tried (really) to make a boon share build work with BD, and it just doesn’t very well. I’ve accepted the fact I’m going to have a largely selfish BD build.
• Illusionary Invigoration vs Illusionary Elasticity. It’s paramount that Ill Inv is taken for more shatters. The only way I’d think about switching to IE would be if Anet fixes IE for our clones.
• Mirror Images, Mantra of Resolve and Decoy (or Blink) for utilities. Mirror Images is probably the most important aspect of this build in order to keep as many illusions up as possible for shattering. Disenchanter just doesn’t work for me in this build, but if you can make it work, by all means.
• Celestial Amulet vs Rabid. It may seem like an odd choice, but it’s not. It works, and decently. Just try it out and you’ll see what I mean.
• Rune of Balthazar vs Undead. You have so much more going for you with this set, more condition output primarily, but the quickness is amazing at 20% and extra burn duration on prestige burn is great.
• Runes of strength/battle and doom. These immensely help your damage and condition output.

Every one of those bullets have been vital to the build working cohesively for me. Most of those choices have a lot of explanation behind them. If there is expressed interest, I will go into more detail on them and skill rotations/strategies/combos I’ve discovered so far. It would literally take a full post.

Yes mobility sux, it just is what it is. In PvP it’s not that big a deal though and you at least have phase retreat blink.

Here’s the build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpTtFpxRNcrNSwBZ6A8gIeqPg6W8jKC-TJRGwAAeCAZ2fgwFBYZZAA

Final disclaimer – I don’t like BD as it is currently – it’s underpowered for a GM trait, BUT I think a build like this could potentially work and has worked decently for me so far (pending further testing).

For me energy sigils would be mandatory and I would drop the mantra cure in favor of arcane thievery with a cooldown reduction. Since its slow maybe drop MP and go with far reaching manipulations, I can usually get rid of unwanted condis with just thievery(w/cd). I haven’t given BD a chance, however I will today!

@trooper: good to know that you tested my idea, it seems like without any investment in condition duration (no points in Domination traitline), its not going to work. Ah well, we just keep trying other things xD.

Nazer.7301:

skcamow.3527:

This purely from a PvP perspective …

OP – I’ve run a very similar trait spread for a few days now after over a week of experimenting with BD builds. I thought about sharing it after getting some good in-game feedback but I’m not 100% confident in it yet (still testing).

I’ve run a boon share, power based and IP based build with BD but I can say that this condition spec here is the strongest BD build I’ve run, BUT I’m running some very key differences from you that I’ll detail here:

• Scepter vs Sword. While iLeap is certainly helpful in landing shatters, it’s definitely not mandatory. Among other key things, scepter helps with your clone generation, which you really need in this build without DE.
• Mender’s Purity vs Vigorous Revelation. If you can find a way to make the build work with VR w/out that condi-removal, by all means. I stay alive MUCH longer with MP. Besides, I’ve tried (really) to make a boon share build work with BD, and it just doesn’t very well. I’ve accepted the fact I’m going to have a largely selfish BD build.
• Illusionary Invigoration vs Illusionary Elasticity. It’s paramount that Ill Inv is taken for more shatters. The only way I’d think about switching to IE would be if Anet fixes IE for our clones.
• Mirror Images, Mantra of Resolve and Decoy (or Blink) for utilities. Mirror Images is probably the most important aspect of this build in order to keep as many illusions up as possible for shattering. Disenchanter just doesn’t work for me in this build, but if you can make it work, by all means.
• Celestial Amulet vs Rabid. It may seem like an odd choice, but it’s not. It works, and decently. Just try it out and you’ll see what I mean.
• Rune of Balthazar vs Undead. You have so much more going for you with this set, more condition output primarily, but the quickness is amazing at 20% and extra burn duration on prestige burn is great.
• Runes of strength/battle and doom. These immensely help your damage and condition output.

Every one of those bullets have been vital to the build working cohesively for me. Most of those choices have a lot of explanation behind them. If there is expressed interest, I will go into more detail on them and skill rotations/strategies/combos I’ve discovered so far. It would literally take a full post.

Yes mobility sux, it just is what it is. In PvP it’s not that big a deal though and you at least have phase retreat blink.

Here’s the build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpTtFpxRNcrNSwBZ6A8gIeqPg6W8jKC-TJRGwAAeCAZ2fgwFBYZZAA

Final disclaimer – I don’t like BD as it is currently – it’s underpowered for a GM trait, BUT I think a build like this could potentially work and has worked decently for me so far (pending further testing).

For me energy sigils would be mandatory and I would drop the mantra cure in favor of arcane thievery with a cooldown reduction. Since its slow maybe drop MP and go with far reaching manipulations, I can usually get rid of unwanted condis with just thievery(w/cd). I haven’t given BD a chance, however I will today!

Given the low crit rate I’d say the sigil of strenght isn’t the best option and I would go with energy like Nazer says. Alternatively battle on swap or hydromancy which I really love. Ultimately I came to appreciate speed very much. I usually put it on the same weapon with stacking sigil so you get the +condi damage and the so much needed speed which we desperately are craving for.

25% base crit chance means a crit and likely proc of the sigil every 4 attacks. With the sigil’s 1s cooldown, you’re going to proc it just enough to make it worth it. Now, take into consideration the fury from both WoC and diversion and you’re in much better shape. That said, energy ofc is a great alternative. I just personally prefer strength (or battle as I suggested).