Guild Wars 2

first of all please read all of changes i listed here before screaming

1. make f5 not work on elite

2. reduce moa cd to 90s or 120s depends ,reduce time wrap cd to 120s or 150s depends, add superspeed to MI

3. when moa form ends ,it will remove 3 conditions on whom gets moaed ,also add 1 stack of stability and resistance for 2 s duration .

4.make f5 reward better setup rather than spamming ,active f5 without illusion , mes gets 1s duration ,with one illusion 2s duration,two illusion 5s duration three illusion 10s duration

also another way to balance f5 :
make it not reset mes hp and position
but work like this : active f5 ,you get a period of time you can use any skills that will be saved
so when the duration ends ,you can press f5 again to reset any skills you used during that period . this ability also has a timer limitation .
tho i dont know if anet could do it .
sorry for bad english

Ah yes, the classic “Lets bend PvE builds over a log and give them a good reaming for the purposes of PvP balance” suggestion.

Edit: With a side dish of making moa closer to rampage than moa? Yeah, no thanks.

Question what class do you use ????

Just fix stunbreak utility spells and make them affect breaking moa form. Exploit solved and balanced.

Better yet how about we crazy buff pu and Stealth On memser and total nuff moa into ground problem solved right???!

No, stealth mesmer is just as cancerous as release thief (who got deleted bc of that). In other words, stealth mesmer needs to suck aswell.

Ok then zip it with the nuff moa crap and take your double moa like good boy and or girl and be quiet.

Nope, this class must end just as thief. This class is even more cancerous than thief ever was.

Adrenalin.5719:

Nope, this class must end just as thief. This class is even more cancerous than thief ever was.

Have you tried dodging? I’ve heard that’s a pretty good way to counter moa.

musu.9205:

first of all please read all of changes i listed here before screaming

1. make f5 not work on elite

What many were hoping, and some feared, would happen to Continuum Shift, but didn’t.

2. reduce moa cd to 90s or 120s depends ,reduce time wrap cd to 120s or 150s depends, add superspeed to MI

Moa is on a 180 second cool down, as is Time Warp for good reason; people are already complaing over an approximate 75 second cool down with Continuum Shift but casting them naturally every 90 seconds or better (alacrity possibility without Continuum Shift), people’s head will explode. So then, should not buff Mesmers, they are already way, over the top, entirely Godlike OP.

3. when moa form ends ,it will remove 3 conditions on whom gets moaed ,also add 1 stack of stability and resistance for 2 s duration .

Reward the Moa’d enemy with condi cleansing and boons? I thought the object was to kill the enemy, not help him. Probably reducing the Moa form to 7 seconds or so (5 if you reduce the cool down on Signet), might be a better option.

4. make f5 reward better setup rather than spamming ,active f5 without illusion , mes gets 1s duration ,with one illusion 2s duration,two illusion 5s duration three illusion 10s duration

No Mesmer that I know of spams F5; first, for its cool down (approximately 75 seconds with various levels of alacrity), second for its importance to reset elite util cool down – you have to be judicious with it or elite is on a 180 second cool down.

also another way to balance f5 :
make it not reset mes hp and position
but work like this : active f5 ,you get a period of time you can use any skills that will be saved
so when the duration ends ,you can press f5 again to reset any skills you used during that period . this ability also has a timer limitation .

If I understand correctly, it currently does that automatically, F5 rift begins, 1.5 seconds later it ends resetting whatever you used. You can override the 1.5 second rift by hitting F5 and destroying the rift, but I don’t see why you would. Essentially, you penalize the Mesmer for using his elite spec, fist by taking away the reset, and then by making him manually use the skill 2 times.

tho i dont know if anet could do it .
sorry for bad english

No worries on the English. Mesmer has only condi/shatter of limited various types in current meta. People are complaining over Continuum Shift and double Moa, it’s understandable, Moa = 10 seconds of near uselessness. Moa doesn’t equal an auto kill, and it certainly is not a guarantee to even hit (it has a 1 second cast time, and it can be dodged, blocked, evaded, or you can interrupt caster, etc.). I get Moa’d too (as a Mesmer), annoying, but, depending on context, it is not the end of the fight neither of the match. I get that 10 seconds is a long time, but its been that way since the beginning, and only now are people upset like the sky is falling.

Soothsayer.9206:

No worries on the English. Mesmer has only condi/shatter of limited various types in current meta. People are complaining over Continuum Shift and double Moa, it’s understandable, Moa = 10 seconds of near uselessness. Moa doesn’t equal an auto kill, and it certainly is not a guarantee to even hit (it has a 1 second cast time, and it can be dodged, blocked, evaded, or you can interrupt caster, etc.). I get Moa’d too (as a Mesmer), annoying, but, depending on context, it is not the end of the fight neither of the match. I get that 10 seconds is a long time, but its been that way since the beginning, and only now are people upset like the sky is falling.

because the removal of them tankier amulets makes people run more damaging builds which results in people dying fast if they got hit with moa compared to before

also because it makes necro fail and there r a lot of necros

lets look at 1 on one scenarios
also 10 sec of being in moa for anyone with half a brain is death in pvp even if u dont die then u basically spent 10 seconds not capturing holding or killing
10 seconds on a point = 5 points
if u hold points in moa ur dead which grant 5 points to enemy team (not counting decap)
if u run then ur point is decapped and thus putting ur team at massive disadvantage

anywho this may or may not apply for team fight on a point but its still pretty much like 1 man short

look at this way a necro using lich form/ plague form which has similarish cool-down does not almost gurenteed their opponent will do the following if successfully executed in 1v1.
A. run and yield point to the caster
B. die and yield the point to the caster
C. unable to stun break or condi cleanse
D. unable to use profession mechanic
E. unable to utilities
F. survive (wow must be pro but still lead to point A in most case)and be massively out of sustain

in a team fight it just makes the enemy team suddenly short a player for 10 seconds, and in some cases they have to res said player if they re downed which may or may not result in wipe

sure its 180 sec and its gotta hit, but there are may ways to make sure it hits and as chrono u get more than1 chance

So I need to ask again – where was the mass outcry on SoH at the start of HoT/S1?

Moa is not the problem.

its CS.

You wanna nerf Moa and kitten core mesmer even more?

Okay.

StickerHappy.8052:

Moa is not the problem.

its CS.

You wanna nerf Moa or kitten core mesmer even more?

Okay.

+1 +1 +1

How about no until anet do something about mesmer abysmal DPS?
Right now I’ve seen that mesmer are compensated by their lag of DPS by their utilities and why would you want to nerf mesmer utilities too? Peer preasure?

link to DPS that mesmer trying to testing out
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/So-what-s-your-DPS-on-the-new-golems
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4fnnfo/dps_comparison/

BTW how does the staff score so high?

edit;spelling

“sure its 180 sec and its gotta hit, but there are many ways to make sure it hits and as chrono u get more than1 chance”[/quote]

Always a caveat. No, it doesn’t have to hit, in fact either it hits or its dodged, blocked, evaded, caster is interrupted, blinded, etc. Most Mesmers don’t use SoH 2 times in a row because of the 3 min. cd, and just because you miss the 1st time, doesn’t mean you can’t miss the 2nd time too.

As I have stated previously, I get Moa’d too as a Mesmer, is it annoying, absolutely. I don’t run it on my condi/shatter because I take other utils for a more supportive type of role, more team oriented; plus it has a long cast time. I don’t let getting moa’d get my ire up; just don’t. It’s a part of the Mesmer mechanic, I get over it when it happens to me. Could it use some tweaking, probably, but not going to lose sleep over it and I am as competitive as they come.

Hlord.5940:

How about no until anet do something about mesmer abysmal DPS?
Right now I’ve seen that mesmer are compensated by their lag of DPS by their utilities and why would you want to nerf mesmer utilities too? Peer preasure?

link to DPS that mesmer trying to testing out
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/So-what-s-your-DPS-on-the-new-golems
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4fnnfo/dps_comparison/

BTW how does the staff score so high?

edit;spelling

Staff scores so high because it’s cute to put all conditions on the golem and watch the warlocks pump out 23k crits since they scale per condition.

I won´t nerft mesmer. I woul buff the moa form….

I think the best fix to Moa Morph might actually be to introduce a training area in the PvP lobby where people can practice fighting as a moa.

Far from being an ‘I win’ move, I’ve seen people get morphed and then turn around and wreck face. For something that is imposed on you by someone using an elite skill with a chance of failure, the moa skills aren’t actually that bad, and in some situations getting moa’d could actually make you stronger (if you don’t have a pressing need to use your heal or other utility skills, you could unload offensive moa skills and then add regular cooldown skills to a spike after it wears off). It’s generally at its strongest when used to deny a specific action – to stop someone from stomping, say, or on a low-health target to stop them from being able to heal and/or use active defences to recover.

The biggest problem is, I think, is that there’s a big difference between the minority who have familiarised themselves with those skills, and the majority (including myself) who just don’t know what they’re doing with them and as a result, a successful morphing puts them into a flailing panic mode rather than being something they can make intelligent decisions with using the tools they’ve got, and it’s this that makes SoH far more powerful in practise than it is on paper.

It’s a similar problem to why most transformation elites were unpopular for several months after the game’s release: as something that could only be used for 20-30 seconds at a time, it’s hard to build a proficiency with the skills that allow the player to use them to their full potential, particularly when these are skills that are expected to be used in clutch situations where every little bit counts. However, self-transformation elites are things that players can enter by their own choice, and thus build proficiency with by using as often as possible in practice-scenarios, while in the case of SoH you’re only likely to experience it during critical moments in PvP (even if you do the moa battle event in Caledon, I think there are different skills). If people had an opportunity to practise with the skills you get after being turned into a moa, then I expect it would start becoming something that people can generally respond to on a similar level to responding to other elites rather than being a battlewinner on its own.

This. Add Moa training to HotM.
Let the moa jump and dodgeroll.
I did already peck someone dead ^^.
Problem is most people die to focus very fast without their escape utilities. Moa, stun dead.
Maybe moa skills shoud be reworked.

1. A hard hitting single target strike with 150 range that bleeds.
2. A clawing attack like Whirling Axe on 5s CD.
3. a leap with a 1s knockdown on 1/2 cast and 10s recharge
4. A 600 rad 5s weakening scream that dazes for 1s. 1s cast and 10s CD.
5. Evade like now with superspeed and a stunbreaker added.

Wolfric.9380:

This. Add Moa training to HotM.
Let the moa jump and dodgeroll.
I did already peck someone dead ^^.
Problem is most people die to focus very fast without their escape utilities. Moa, stun dead.
Maybe moa skills shoud be reworked.

1. A hard hitting single target strike with 150 range that bleeds.
2. A clawing attack like Whirling Axe on 5s CD.
3. a leap with a 1s knockdown on 1/2 cast and 10s recharge
4. A 600 rad 5s weakening scream that dazes for 1s. 1s cast and 10s CD.
5. Evade like now with superspeed and a stunbreaker added.

You can already dodge in Moa so how is that a problem?
And the 5 skill is an escape already as well so there’s basically 3 evades, I don’t understand what more you could want.

The problem is no one takes the time to familiarize themselves with the skills and in a team setting that’s a no no. You’re already doing it for other classes why not Mesmer too? Would make things so much easier.

sorry but its one evade. countig normal dodges makes no sense. Often you have used your endurance, maybe just dodged moa 1 and could´t doge moa 2 …
Shure you can fight as moa but basically you are shut down and an easy target. I either scream or run if moad but you should know moa in a teamfight is critical. Moa, CC and focus. Basically people dislike being killed mostly helpless due to one skill.
One of the main issues is that you loose your utilities and thus stunbreak or other focus defence options. I like such funny things but would enjoy a buffed moa even more. Giving 5 a stunbreak and superspeed would already help much.

So you’re saying we should reward players for having their dodges baited? Thanks but no thanks. This is PvP, it’s supposed to be about having a team help and support you while you fight against other thinking players. If I wanted to press 1 to win I’d play PvE or zerg EotM. But I don’t, I pvp and small scale roam were my actions dictate how a fight goes.

The problem isn’t necessarily Moa, we’ve always had Moa. You’ve always had a group of people complain about being Moa’ed too. But their problem was and always will be the fact they refused to learn the skills. That’s not my fault, it’s thiers and for no reason should my class be punished for that. And then Anet get the bright idea to introduce CS. Which is great, it’s an interesting concept, extremely useful, but hard as hell to balance. And there in lies the problem. It’s not Moa, that’s nothing new and not ground breaking, it’s l2p all over again. If you get your dodges baited and aren’t paying attention to the Mesmer to block or interupt an obvious casting oh well you deserved. No, the problem is now we have CS which gives us the opportunity to have multiple of everything. I mean, have you ever dropped Gravity Well at Mid twice after making sure everyone used their stun breaks? The results are hilarious. But it’s not GW’s fault, CS allowed the second use.
So why in the hell should we nerf or change Moa because of CS? It makes no sense.

I have a improvement for Moa’s! , simple allow Utiltiy skills , lower the damage from Moa skills

this way if you have a Transfermation skill on your Utility bar shroud/signet of the wild/CA form ect or a Elite skill that is a Transformation you can Transform to remove the MoA effect!.

from this it will also allow Anet to reduce the cooldowns on MoA skills to match those transformation skills so it can be a huge drop from 120seconds to like 75seconds or even lower (60seconds+cooldown reduction 48seconds to counter to amount of transformations then MoA for becomes a interruption type skills being low cooldown much more useful in its application too.

to balance things out even more things already in a Transformation state making them immune to MoA effects, like warroirs Ramage ect.

i’d prefer to see MoA have increased uses and a much lower cooldown so it can be used as a lockdown skill more often could even bring Powerblock mesmer into a meta team having consistant interruptions.

So what would actually happen if moa skill 5 gets a stunbreaker and superspeed added?

Soothsayer.9206:

“sure its 180 sec and its gotta hit, but there are many ways to make sure it hits and as chrono u get more than1 chance”

Always a caveat. No, it doesn’t have to hit, in fact either it hits or its dodged, blocked, evaded, caster is interrupted, blinded, etc. Most Mesmers don’t use SoH 2 times in a row because of the 3 min. cd, and just because you miss the 1st time, doesn’t mean you can’t miss the 2nd time too.

As I have stated previously, I get Moa’d too as a Mesmer, is it annoying, absolutely. I don’t run it on my condi/shatter because I take other utils for a more supportive type of role, more team oriented; plus it has a long cast time. I don’t let getting moa’d get my ire up; just don’t. It’s a part of the Mesmer mechanic, I get over it when it happens to me. Could it use some tweaking, probably, but not going to lose sleep over it and I am as competitive as they come.

who ever said i lose my sleep over it?
it being part of Mesmer mechanic i don think i need you to tell em that
get use to being moa – i already did

i don understand what you are tying to pull against my previous comment

“sure its 180 sec and its gotta hit, but there are many ways to make sure it hits and as chrono u get more than1 chance”

ur argument:

Soothsayer.9206:

No, it doesn’t have to hit, in fact either it hits or its dodged, blocked, evaded, caster is interrupted, blinded, etc.

n o____s h i e t____w o w____i____d i d n t____k n o w

if CS a chrono get 2 chance
a mesmer have ways to make sure it hit, using it from stealth, bait dodges, chain it with cc – if you are just casting it on a guard with aegis at the start of the fight then i really cant comment on ur sanity

The biggest complaint about moa is that it lasts too long. Why not give a chance to moa’d players to reduce the time spent in moa form? Add a half second skill that will reduce the time spent in moa by half. When activated a bar fills up and you need the active focus of at least 2 players for the bar not to fill up. Other solution: why not scale the time spent in moa up to the number of illusion the mesmer had at the end of the cast?

StickerHappy.8052:

Moa is not the problem.

its CS.

You wanna nerf Moa and kitten core mesmer even more?

Okay.

I personally disagree very heavily with this.

I can see your reasoning; Moa was hardly ever used before Chronomancer arrived, and now most Mesmers worth their salt take it in PvP. Clearly it looks as though Continuum Split’s the problem, as Moa was never problematic before Chronomancer’s release.

However, I would argue that Moa was always a problem, and Continuum Split just showed how big of a problem it is. The only reason it wasn’t used before was because the 180-second cooldown didn’t justify an ability that’s extremely unreliable because any random blind/aegis/block/evade/invulnerability/stability will waste it. Now that we can basically cast it every 90 seconds (down to 72 with the Illusions line and down even further with alacrity), it’s finally being taken.

Why is it a problem? It’s a one-dimensional and extremely oppressive skill. When the enemy Mesmer casts Decoy, places a big red target reticle on my head for his team, casts Moa on me, and then I get burst down by everyone and their mother, I don’t feel like I got outplayed. I’m locked out of everything that makes my class what it is… I can’t heal, I can’t dash away, I can’t enter stealth, I can’t stunbreak, I can’t remove conditions… and all for what? Because I’m not psychic and couldn’t read the enemy Mesmer’s mind to know that I had to dodge? Even if the Mesmer doesn’t cast it in stealth, with all the particle effects flying around and classes like Asura that make even the supposed obvious animation difficult to see, it really doesn’t feel like I’m to blame for getting Moa’d.

Frankly, I’d like to see the skill reworked into something entirely different. It’s the most unhealthy elite that Mesmer has in its kit when combined with CS. Sure, double Gravity Well isn’t particularly weak either, but at least you’re not locked out of your whole class when in the well, and frankly, with all the stunbreaks and instant-cast abilities that classes have access to, it’s a definite rarity that you have absolutely NOTHING available to get out of or at least mitigate the effects of Gravity Well.

What I like about Moa is that it promotes “play-making”, and can be a real game changer if it lands, which is certainly a healthy aspect to have in a PvP game if balanced correctly. In that light, I would absolutely not be against a rework of the skill that still maintains those aspects while still promoting fair, non-cheap tactics. That, or it gets nerfed so that other weak aspects of Mesmer can finally get properly buffed.

Zantmar.5406:

Soothsayer.9206:

“sure its 180 sec and its gotta hit, but there are many ways to make sure it hits and as chrono u get more than1 chance”

Always a caveat. No, it doesn’t have to hit, in fact either it hits or its dodged, blocked, evaded, caster is interrupted, blinded, etc. Most Mesmers don’t use SoH 2 times in a row because of the 3 min. cd, and just because you miss the 1st time, doesn’t mean you can’t miss the 2nd time too.

As I have stated previously, I get Moa’d too as a Mesmer, is it annoying, absolutely. I don’t run it on my condi/shatter because I take other utils for a more supportive type of role, more team oriented; plus it has a long cast time. I don’t let getting moa’d get my ire up; just don’t. It’s a part of the Mesmer mechanic, I get over it when it happens to me. Could it use some tweaking, probably, but not going to lose sleep over it and I am as competitive as they come.

who ever said i lose my sleep over it?
it being part of Mesmer mechanic i don think i need you to tell em that
get use to being moa – i already did

i don understand what you are tying to pull against my previous comment

“sure its 180 sec and its gotta hit, but there are many ways to make sure it hits and as chrono u get more than1 chance”

ur argument:

Soothsayer.9206:

No, it doesn’t have to hit, in fact either it hits or its dodged, blocked, evaded, caster is interrupted, blinded, etc.

n o____s h i e t____w o w____i____d i d n t____k n o w

if CS a chrono get 2 chance
a mesmer have ways to make sure it hit, using it from stealth, bait dodges, chain it with cc – if you are just casting it on a guard with aegis at the start of the fight then i really cant comment on ur sanity

True, Mesmers have ways to increase the odds of them landing SoH, no arguments there. Its not an automatic, stating it any other way is an overstatement. Current Meta doesn’t use stealth, neither does it use Deceptive Evasion (clone on dodge – possibly Helseth??). Chaos Storm (staff 5 – 1 second daze – 35 second cd), and Diversion (clones have to hit for 1 second daze, on a 32 second cd) not much of a cc train. Furthermore, even if you use Signet of Illusions to recharge your shatters, it has a 1.25 second cast time – one of the longest in game – an enemy can’t do anything in 1.25 seconds? None of these things make SoH as automatic as most are complaing about. Good players, who know what Mesmers are capable of doing, know how to counter and survive. Equally, good Mesmers know their opponents and look for the best opportunity to use SoH that’s what it makes it a dance. Mesmers hardly believe it’s as mindlessly easy or as excruciatingly hard as some are making it out to be.

For the sake of argument, lets assume that Mesmer uses SoH twice, back to back. The 1st instance missed, the 2nd didn’t. Moa for 10 seconds and no elite util for 3 mins. Worst case scenario, 2 Moas, still 3 mins. of cool down. Don’t like it myself (don’t run SoH on my Mesmer, I opt for a more supportive role on my condi/shatter), but I know for 3 mins. enemy Mesmer is nearly toothless and his 1v1 value has been dramatically reduced for 3 mins. This is why Mesmer’s don’t like to use CS and elite twice in a row. Does CS need a nerf, that’s debatable, could SoH be changed to bring more balance sure, but its overstating the case that I am trying to quell.

I don’t remember mentioning Guardian though, and even my wife questions my sanity sometimes.

this QQ thread pretty much starts and end with one sentence

its a team game, you have 4 other people to cover your moa’d form on top of personal skills.

don’t forget you can tell IF a mesmer can even MOA you as you see the signet.
certain classes with % damage buffs deal heavy damage in moa, you have 75% uptime of cripple to 3 targets, 75% uptime of weakness to 4 targets, and an evade.

peck is moa high damage to 3 targets. 4 hits of 381 + power + 0.99. lets say 2200 power
4x (381 + (0.99))
4x (381 +2178)
4x (2559)
= 10236

10236 damage that can hit 3 targets before armor reduction on a 4 second cooldown.

then add classes with % based damage bonuses and it can hit crazy, all while keeping cripple(-50% speed), weakness (-50% endurance regen, 50% chance to do half damage and cant crit) up for 3/4 seconds.

yes moa can be annoying but it is no death sentence. dying to moa in a team fight is due to lack of assistance from your team.

I said it before & say it again..L2p Moa

-posting in both threads

Signet of Humility will NOT reset if it lands during CS – Reduced cooldown to 120
(must actually polymorph the target, blocking the skill will allow it to be reset)

Option 1 and 3 are terrible. 1 for the most part being that “Moa” is the only culprit and subject to pvp based balance issues.

if anything half it duration and half its cooldown.

you get no 20s moa, i get to use cs on far more painful salt generating combos that will make more hate threads by people who should l2p instead of run in circles spamming 1 at clones with 10 confusion and torment then cry op