Guild Wars 2

I have played some PvP with Necromancer lately. And I felt the pain over and over again, when Lich Form got canceled into Moa by Mesmer. I find that counter actually too hard.

So my suggestion is that Moa only cancels a transform. So if you were transformed, like Tornado, Lich Form or the like, Moa will transform you only back into normal form.

If the target isn’t transformed though and Moa hits, it could work as it does today.

What are your thoughts on that?

I think you should stop thinking. Moa is already hard countered by blocks, blinds, and dodges.

Yeah, and necro has so many of those (blinds and blocks), especially when transformed… way to encourage constructive discussions btw.

Ah, no, I’d rather my moa still moa. Not speaking of necro itself, but Lich and the other transformations don’t have much of a counter to begin with. Mesmer’s all about turning the tables. Plus, moa itself isn’t that bad. At worst, it reverses the situation between you and your opponents while you were in lich form: instead of them being forced to run away, you are. Simply put, it’s not that bad. What I think you’re caught up on is the difference in power that moa makes you travel. For instance, if a player is normally Power Level 2, their transformation is Power Level 3, and Moa is Power Level 1, being Moa’d from transformation means you’re traveling down 2 Power Levels instead of 1, but that doesn’t make Moa and more powerful from when you’re in Lich form than it does from when you’re not.

Therefore, I believe Moa’s current effect to be fair play.

TyPin.9860:

Yeah, and necro has so many of those (blinds and blocks), especially when transformed… way to encourage constructive discussions btw.

There’s nothing to constructively discuss about a skill that can be very easily countered with one dodge – which all classes have access to. And Necro’s have on-demand access to blind with off-hand dagger, Signet of Spite and Well of Darkness, to name a few.

Uhmm guys can you keep it constructive? All these replies here are mesmer centric, any of you guys played necro?

First of all Lich has a lot of counters, REFLECTS, CC when you rip Stab, LoS, blinds, blocks.

So yea..Saying that transformations have no counters are…..

Moa is what I consider to be an anti-elite.
Especially with the state of both Rampage, Tornado and Lich with the recent elite changes.

Moa is one of the few elites that has a high risk, high reward factor to it. If you manage to get it off, you deserve it. Especially since even if a foe is Moa’d they still have plenty of chances to survive or fight back.

You miss/blocked/evaded/blinded/reflect/LoS with Moa, it goes on full cooldown. There is no second chances. 3 minutes before you can use it again.

Lich on the other hand, you activate it and most of the time a foe has to either waste alot of their valuable utilities to prevent getting nuked from Lich’s simple auto attack or run away/LoS. Which still leaves the Necro free to hammer on someone else nearby for its full duration.

The only time a Necro elite is ever put on full cooldown without being completed in duration is the Necro cancelling it manually or Moa.

I agree with StickerHappy here.

And @phokus:
When you are in Lich form, there is no counter to Moa but dodge. But dodge counters everything, so that doesn’t really count. I do not advocate that Moa changes as a whole, only when you Moa a transformed target, such as Necro in Lich form, you don’t turn the Lich into Moa, but back into a normal necro.

Even plague, which is a transfrom with blinds, can be easily Moad by going beyond the the PAoE range of plague.

Dodge counts, it counts a lot. It’s the one thing that every class has that counters Moa. People need to stop needlessly using Dodge but save one for when it’s needed. Field and situational awareness will determine when to use Dodge. You should know full well that if you’re up against a Mesmer and you pop Lich Form that you should be expecting Moa.

phokus.8934:

Dodge counts, it counts a lot. It’s the one thing that every class has that counters Moa. People need to stop needlessly using Dodge but save one for when it’s needed. Field and situational awareness will determine when to use Dodge. You should know full well that if you’re up against a Mesmer and you pop Lich Form that you should be expecting Moa.

You could say Dodges counter ALL skills.

Talonblaze.3175:

Moa is what I consider to be an anti-elite.
Especially with the state of both Rampage, Tornado and Lich with the recent elite changes.

Moa is one of the few elites that has a high risk, high reward factor to it. If you manage to get it off, you deserve it. Especially since even if a foe is Moa’d they still have plenty of chances to survive or fight back.

You miss/blocked/evaded/blinded/reflect/LoS with Moa, it goes on full cooldown. There is no second chances. 3 minutes before you can use it again.

Lich on the other hand, you activate it and most of the time a foe has to either waste alot of their valuable utilities to prevent getting nuked from Lich’s simple auto attack or run away/LoS. Which still leaves the Necro free to hammer on someone else nearby for its full duration.

The only time a Necro elite is ever put on full cooldown without being completed in duration is the Necro cancelling it manually or Moa.

And Moa will still cancel the the transform and bring the Elite on a full cool down. From my experience, it is not hard at all to get a Moa off. Most securely you can do it from stealth.

And it should be hard to fight against Lich form… it is an Elite, which makes the Necro also extremely vulnerable, visually and in form of utility, which is all offensive oriented. Lich is high risk high reward too and certain professions, like guardian for instance, have no issues at all when a necro goes Lich form… they simply melee it with CCs and blinds. Same goes for thieves for instance.

What moa now does, it not only cancels the transform, it also leaves the necromancer with the risk only. The necromancer is the most vulnerable profession to CC there is. And Moa just makes that worse.

A lock down Mesmer for instance can already completely cancel out the necro, and when he is in lich form, the Mesmer even can punish the necro ultimately with Moa form after Lich. The only thing I advocate to soften this ultra hard counter a bit.

Nope. It should definitely turn you into a Moa.

One turns you into an engine of destruction for 30s on a 180s cooldown, complete with near-immunity to control that would slow down your awesome pew-pew power.

The other is a glorified extra-long daze on a 180s cooldown. One of the main reasons you’d take it at all is to be able to deal with Lich Form.

The other most common counters to Lich? “Focus fire” and “run away.” It’s a powerful skill.

Is it annoying when Moa breaks your Lich Form? Oh, I’m sure. But the game’s full of annoying things. If a mesmer’s just saving Moa to counter Lich Form, you have the advantage: not activating Lich during that particular basically means her elite’s wasted as well. And you can easily save Lich and pop it later when the mesmer’s elsewhere or out of commission.

With your proposed changes, there’s nearly no downside to just popping Lich whenever you want. Either your opponent doesn’t have Moa and you get to rampage unhindered, or she does and you… burn your elite to force out hers, with no detriment to yourself.

@TyPin

As a mesmer myself, I will dare say you won’t get any good feedback against MoA here. LOL.

But I have to say tho, All those arguments that say “Oh you can dodge, blind, block, w/e Moa”

People are forgetting you can Cast Moa From stealth with no tells. LOL. I love the skill, but I am just spewing facts here.

ASP.8093:

[…]

The other most common counters to Lich? “Focus fire” and “run away.” It’s a powerful skill.

[…]

With your proposed changes, there’s nearly no downside to just popping Lich whenever you want. Either your opponent doesn’t have Moa and you get to rampage unhindered, or she does and you… burn your elite to force out hers, with no detriment to yourself.

That is simply wrong. Lich form can be countered in multiple ways across all the different professions. I myself let Necros sometimes kill themselves with F4 shatter. Also a simply F3 with shattered concentration still likely dazes a Lich. Other than that you can turn around the Lich. I myself have locked down Lichs in PvP and have been locked down by Mesmers under Lich form both IP Power Shatter and Lockdown alike without the use of Moa.

When I run Mesmer in PvP I never take Moa form. And it is really not needed against Lichs. Other professions, as I have already explained, have it even easier to counter Lich form. If your team leaves the Necromancer alone, then Lich form is devastating. But just one properly pressuring the necro is enough in most cases.

I see many Necromancer wasting Lich form in the most inappropriate and predictable situations, leaving non necros with the impression it is a skill that can be used lightly. I personally had whole matches, even with no mesmer around, where I didn’t pop lich form and focused on using dagger/warhorn and DS, because of the 2 guardians who would only melee blind me 24/7 if I turned into a lich. Being predictable is anyway the worst thing a necro can do in PvP.

Ok Typin, I see what you mean. Yes, if the mesmer still has moa ready, chances are he will moa your lich.

The thing is, moa is on a very, very long CD. So you should never use your lich when the mesmer is around with the moa ready. Let him use his moa elsewhere. Put a target on his head and get him killed first. Ask your team to control him while you do your lich. Moa is a serious counter to these big elites, that is true, so play smart and don’t waste your lich.

Alternatively, don’t play lich form when there is a mesmer in the other team.

You want my Polymorph Moa not to…moa? So I want your Lich Form, well, not to lich. Fair? Fair.

TyPin.9860:

I agree with StickerHappy here.

And @phokus:
When you are in Lich form, there is no counter to Moa but dodge. But dodge counters everything, so that doesn’t really count. I do not advocate that Moa changes as a whole, only when you Moa a transformed target, such as Necro in Lich form, you don’t turn the Lich into Moa, but back into a normal necro.

Even plague, which is a transfrom with blinds, can be easily Moad by going beyond the the PAoE range of plague.

sure, if they lower the CD of Moa to 45 sec… Heck, 30 sec, then I will agree.

I’d be more than happy to swap elites your lich for my moa.

@OP

Told you, you won’t get any constructive replies… haha..

They just HAVE TO change that Lich-cancelling with the new AoE Moa elixier the Engineer gets (on a lower CD). Just as a sidenote.

StickerHappy.8052:

@OP

Told you, you won’t get any constructive replies… haha..

^^What he said. I have too much of a bias to give constructive criticism on this topic, honestly. I might be right, or not. I probably won’t ever know.

Personal opinion: Moa is fine since most mesmers will be Mass Invis’ing it in PvP, but when we do take it, it is with the intention of countering Lich. It’s also, as someone said, an anti-elite skill and befitting the theme of mesmer’s manipulation skills meant to turn a disadvantageous situation into an advantageous one.

Most of what I say is probably bias, thus you should see how the PvP forum views your suggestion instead.

The thing is, that almost all of the criticism doesn’t really apply to my suggestion. All what you wanna do with Moa, you still can with my suggestion implemented. But it seems to be true what StickerHappy said.

Up until now I had a feeling that the Mesmer community had a more unbiased view of things. It seems I was wrong. Especially the amount of nonconstructive trolling in this thread somewhat surprised me.

Mogar.9216:

I’d be more than happy to swap elites your lich for my moa.

Funny, my Lich form. Since I main Mesmer, this statement is the most hilarious of the troll posts.

Ok, I will try to be constructive and as fair as possible.

TyPin.9860:

I have played some PvP with Necromancer lately. And I felt the pain over and over again, when Lich Form got canceled into Moa by Mesmer. I find that counter actually too hard.

This is coming from a necro perspective yes? If so, this is already biased. What about other classes dont have access to any transformation elites? Transformation elites are meant to be justifiably strong and thus why you felt the pain being stripped off all that power. But your suggestion is biased to improve necro gameplay instead of giving a fair go to all classes being hit by Polymorph Moa.

TyPin.9860:

So my suggestion is that Moa only cancels a transform. So if you were transformed, like Tornado, Lich Form or the like, Moa will transform you only back into normal form.

As someone above me said it and I want to reiterate in a more polished way. You’re basically asking to change the elite skill not to work as its intended purpose (polymorph moa), even though certain conditions need to be met. If we go with your suggestion, suddenly mesmers have yet another thing that doesn’t do the thing per original design (cough.. Power Block against thieves… cough).

So, not entirely bashing your whole argument about Polymorph Moa though so please hear me out.

My suggestion is that, since transformation elites usually last longer than 10s of Moa.
When you get Moa’d, you will still go back to your transformation after 10s instead of going all back to normal form.
For example, to clarify, u go Lich form, a mesmer moas you when you’re already 3s in your elite form, you become a moa for 10s, then after that, you get back to your Lich Form for the remaining 17s.

I think it would be a fair change. Not sure if Anet has the code sorted out to do it or not yet though.
To compensate for this change though, Polymorph Moa cooldown has to reduce to match the lowest transformation cooldown currently in the game, that is, 105s to make it more effective to “temporarily” counter enemy transformation for 10s.

@keenlam:
That actually sounds like an interesting idea… I could very well see that work.

To the topic of PoV: Playing both Mesmer and Necro (and maining Mesmer) I believe that I have a fair understanding of both professions. Does that make me less subjective? Well… maybe… maybe not. It gives me insight though in both professions.

MOAMORPH is the great Equalizer. So don’t ya touch my Moa baby..

Hopefully you understand that the mind blowing power of the transforms are allowed to exist in their current state mostly because there is a hard counter to them in the game: Moa.

As someone who has watched a transform (Lich with a 9k AA or tornado or rampage) completely turn the tide of a battle and in the end a gmae.. I would like to know what you think should be traded out from these transforms in order to make Polymorph Moa a more balanced skill.

TyPin.9860:

Up until now I had a feeling that the Mesmer community had a more unbiased view of things. It seems I was wrong. Especially the amount of nonconstructive trolling in this thread somewhat surprised me.

You haven’t really offered much of an argument. Just “It sucks when you go Lich and get Moa’d.” Most of your other posts here are about how people are overstating the “counters” to Moa, which is true, but that’s arguing down in the weeds while you haven’t really established your thesis very strongly.

I don’t think anyone’s really disputing that losing sweet, sweet Lich Form is a feel-bad moment. But, like, so what? The game is full of feel-bad moments.

I don’t see how this is a “Moa is overpowered” problem. Sounds more like a “Necros are underpowered” problem to me.

Moa always work if it connects with the target irrespective of form. I really like this and makes the skill powerful as an Elite. However, I think it might be cool if it didn’t cancel the original transformation state of the target.

Moa Morph would return you to your original transformed state for the duration of the skill. So Moa Morph is always a 10 second window to remove a transformed player and not necessarily just a way to cancel that player transformation.

ASP.8093:

TyPin.9860:

Up until now I had a feeling that the Mesmer community had a more unbiased view of things. It seems I was wrong. Especially the amount of nonconstructive trolling in this thread somewhat surprised me.

You haven’t really offered much of an argument. Just “It sucks when you go Lich and get Moa’d.” Most of your other posts here are about how people are overstating the “counters” to Moa, which is true, but that’s arguing down in the weeds while you haven’t really established your thesis very strongly.

I don’t think anyone’s really disputing that losing sweet, sweet Lich Form is a feel-bad moment. But, like, so what? The game is full of feel-bad moments.

The question is: Which other elite offers the risk of Lich? Lich is in my opinion the Elite with the highest risk, but also offers very very high rewards. Even if Moa did not exist, the risk of Lich Form would be incredibly high. You are immediately a high priority target and an easy target in addition with almost no defensive abilities except the stat increase and the offensive pressure. It is already possible as Mesmer to pressure the Lich in a way that he is canceled out… with Moa, the Mesmer can take the Lich out and simple further even ignore the necro. It is the all or nothing character of Moa I always disliked, but takes it imo over the top with canceling other transforms as it does now. Now mind you, I do not want the transfrom cancel removed. Moa would still fulfill that purpose.

Now with the initial suggestion from keenlam, which is significantly different to my suggestion, it would be possible to turn the Lich into Moa for the duration of Moa, but after it would return to Lich (if still Lich duration remains). Personally I find that a nice idea.

However, my comment about the bias of the Mesmers in that thread is not about the fact, that ppl disagree with me (it would mean I believe myself unbiased). But the arguments brought forward for the disagreement were often over exaggeration or simply falsehoods. That is my issue.

As someone already said, the state of certain elites at the moment with pulsing stability is just stupid. Stripping and trying to CC is of limited effectiveness and is very build centric.

Fix the way RaO, Tornado, Lich, Swarm and Rampage make you immune to CC and then we can talk about Mao messing up transforms.

One thing I do think needs adding is a transformer golem in HotM which gives you an hour of each transform to play around with the skills for including moa. Knowing is half the battle and all.

Edit: It’s also worth remembering that lich is a 100% positive elite, it cannot be blocked or stopped happening except by interrupt afaik. You may say you’re “defenceless” but in reality you can exit it at any point and it gives you immense direct damage pressure which rapidly overwhelms people.

Moa has a very long cooldown like Lich but can be dodged, blocked, blinded etc like others have said. Which means it needs setting up to be used right and carries a big risk as if you miss, that’s quite a big loss. Remember this is a team game and gives the prevelance of guards, thieves and engineers there is no shortage of those going around.

Yes, moa hard counters lich.
But you should never look at balance by looking at two skills only.

Exciton.8942:

Yes, moa hard counters lich.
But you should never look at balance by looking at two skills only.

That’s not what I am doing. Is it not, that the most common Mesmer build u find in PvP simply wrecks power necro (which is the only kind of necro that uses Lich, as far as my experience goes)? I do with my shatter and I have been wrecked many times over as power necro by shatters. Not even taking the Lich-Moa interaction under consideration. So how does Moa now contribute to this balance?

@pulsing stability:
To say that makes Lich immune to CC is simply wrong. Again, I have repeatedly interrupted/dazed Lichs on a double ranged shatter build alone both in PvP and WvW.

I gathered so far that the majority of Mesmers here would not support my idea. That is totally okay (although u are all wrong and you all will suffer the wrath of grenth^^). But what throws me off is that the same falsehoods about Mesmer Lich interactions are always repeated.

TyPin.9860:

Exciton.8942:

Yes, moa hard counters lich.
But you should never look at balance by looking at two skills only.

That’s not what I am doing. Is it not, that the most common Mesmer build u find in PvP simply wrecks power necro (which is the only kind of necro that uses Lich, as far as my experience goes)? I do with my shatter and I have been wrecked many times over as power necro by shatters. Not even taking the Lich-Moa interaction under consideration. So how does Moa now contribute to this balance?

@pulsing stability:
To say that makes Lich immune to CC is simply wrong. Again, I have repeatedly interrupted/dazed Lichs on a double ranged shatter build alone both in PvP and WvW.

I gathered so far that the majority of Mesmers here would not support my idea. That is totally okay (although u are all wrong and you all will suffer the wrath of grenth^^). But what throws me off is that the same falsehoods about Mesmer Lich interactions are always repeated.

One of the balances to this is that they have identical CD. Mesmer loses access to Mass Invisibility so they can have a skill that only works occasionally. And the comparison of class vs class is as fallacious as skill vs skill. Remember the classes are balanced against the whole of each other. Lich is not the only transform in the game. There is also Plague, Rampage, Tornado, Whirlpool, Polymorph Tuna, all Norn Racial Elite, Avatar of Melandru. It also counters most elites. And the only non racial elite with a higher cooldown, Moa cannot counter. Looking at you Battle Standard. I think it should remain as it is.

Daniel Handler.4816:

And the only non racial elite with a higher cooldown, Moa cannot counter. Looking at you Battle Standard. I think it should remain as it is.

It can actually. In a clutch team fight, if the warrior has stability and I am not sure I can strip it, I sometimes moa him while his team mate his downed. Granted, he still has his banner, but both him and his team mate are dead at this point.

edit: and you forgot the almighty Mortar.

It seems like a lot of players see transforms as god modes, where they can just spam offensive skills for x seconds while ignoring enemy casts. Moa keeps that in check.

TyPin.9860:

Exciton.8942:

Yes, moa hard counters lich.
But you should never look at balance by looking at two skills only.

That’s not what I am doing. Is it not, that the most common Mesmer build u find in PvP simply wrecks power necro (which is the only kind of necro that uses Lich, as far as my experience goes)? I do with my shatter and I have been wrecked many times over as power necro by shatters. Not even taking the Lich-Moa interaction under consideration. So how does Moa now contribute to this balance?

@pulsing stability:
To say that makes Lich immune to CC is simply wrong. Again, I have repeatedly interrupted/dazed Lichs on a double ranged shatter build alone both in PvP and WvW.

I gathered so far that the majority of Mesmers here would not support my idea. That is totally okay (although u are all wrong and you all will suffer the wrath of grenth^^). But what throws me off is that the same falsehoods about Mesmer Lich interactions are always repeated.

mesmers high counter necros, thieves high counter mesmers, etc etc
Do you want change either only 1 chain link or all system?

Sorel.4870:

Daniel Handler.4816:

And the only non racial elite with a higher cooldown, Moa cannot counter. Looking at you Battle Standard. I think it should remain as it is.

It can actually. In a clutch team fight, if the warrior has stability and I am not sure I can strip it, I sometimes moa him while his team mate his downed. Granted, he still has his banner, but both him and his team mate are dead at this point.

edit: and you forgot the almighty Mortar.

I am referring to countering the actual skill, as in putting it on full cooldown and removing the effect. Mortar is not a true Transform, although the game can sometimes process it as a transformation.

I can’t really take this thread seriously, considering the two abilities we’re looking at. The Mesmer Elite in question is actually rather rarely taken due to the huge failure rate it suffers, while the Necro Elite in question is arguably one of the most powerful Elites in the game and is quite popular. As others have said, it has nearly no counter and absolute cheese damage.

Moa not only has all those counters, but it has a built-in getaway function for the transformed player! How stupid is that? In at least 75% of cases where you do manage to land it past it’s easily 33% general failure rate, the “victim” simply presses a button and speeds away laughing. (Or worse, if you’re below 50% health yourself, the Moa loves to turn on you and peck away with quite respectable damage. How embarrassing is it to die to your own 180s CD Elite? Only Mesmers know the answer to that!)

Please! This thread is silly. Moa is overall a very mediocre Elite at best, but it happens to be a nice counter to one of the most OPd and cheesy Elites in the game.

Rather then calling for nerfs against Moa, I’d argue that Necros ought to duck & cover and pray that the Lich doesn’t get a huge DPS nerf now that its Stab is basically not strippable.

@Windwalker:
Lol, did you contradict yourself on purpose? Well, before I address your contradiction:

Windwalker.7421:

[…] As others have said, it has nearly no counter and absolute cheese damage.

Do not come back at me with falsehoods. You might disagree with me, but do not so based on falsehoods. Lich form can be countered in many many ways. And Mesmers are naturally equipped with several tools that can counter Lich (without Moa). I have addressed this issue already several times throughout this thread. And Mesmers aren’t the only ones who can counter Lich quite handy. Medi guradians and D/P thieves are quite good at it too.

Now to the contradiction (paraphrasing):
I say: “Moa Morph shouldn’t turn a Lich to Moa, but only back to being necro.”
You say: “No, don’t do that. Lich is too strong and Moa should counter Lich” (what it still does with my suggestion). “Also, Moa can easily run away or even kill me.” (Moa wouldn’t be there in my suggestion^^)

So Moa is actually buffing the Necromancer? But you said it should be a counter? With Lich I am unlikely to kill a Mesmer (that is aware of me, lol). But to your account, as Moa, I am? So how is my suggestion bad? Or are you on the necromancers’ side in this discussion.

Okay, I’ll stop trolling now (the falsehood argument but still stands).

EDIT:
Btw, all Mesmers I know personally, who don’t use Moa, do so based not on the “low” success rate of Moa (seriously, lol) but because they consider Moa itself a cheese skill… But well, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal^^

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Windwalker.7421:

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Moa is more effective than lich, how? cast it from stealth you get an unavoidable moa, no tells, no counterplay. Unless they get a lucky dodge or block.

Lich on the other hand? Reflects eat lich alive, (which we have a lot), lich can be stripped on stab (making him susceptible to CC for a short period of time), You can just runaway from lich, you can LOS lich, you can immob lich then runaway, I mean this should be a no brainer, Lich is very squishy as kitten.

I mean come on, I am not defending necro by any chance, I would rather be constructive and fair on arguments If I were you. I do not want to sound like the thieves forum.

You are saying Lich is better than Moa? how? Do you see a condimancer run lich?
Moa can be ran by any mesmer build and still produce very effective results.

Windwalker.7421:

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Why do you take my trolling so serious, when I even say I trolled? Rofl. Someone feels to overly justify himself. Afraid your point isn’t valid enough so you have to even respond to troll posts?

Nonetheless. Since you feed me: My original suggestion completely counters Lich. And it helps the Mesmer, being protected from the ultra strong Moa, which for some reason turns at 50% Mesmer health into a killer machine. Or if the Mesmer is, for some impossible reason after casting Moa from stealth, still over 50% health, the lack of Moa helps the Mesmer kill the Necro. Cuz without Moa he cannot simply charge in unspeakable distances with #5.

I only wanna help the poor Mesmers and protect them from the repercussions of Moa. When infact they have no other means to counter the total OPness of unbeatable Lich.

StickerHappy.8052:

Windwalker.7421:

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Moa is more effective than lich, how? cast it from stealth you get an unavoidable moa, no tells, no counterplay. Unless they get a lucky dodge or block.

Lich on the other hand? Reflects eat lich alive, (which we have a lot), lich can be stripped on stab (making him susceptible to CC for a short period of time), You can just runaway from lich, you can LOS lich, you can immob lich then runaway, I mean this should be a no brainer, Lich is very squishy as kitten.

I mean come on, I am not defending necro by any chance, I would rather be constructive and fair on arguments If I were you. I do not want to sound like the thieves forum.

You are saying Lich is better than Moa? how? Do you see a condimancer run lich?
Moa can be ran by any mesmer build and still produce very effective results.

Necros have elites that synergize with their builds. Condimancers don’t run Lich because Plague exists. It’s weird that you’re using that as an argument for mesmer elites being more effective. I’m sure condi mesmers would love to run an elite that spammed conditions instead of Moa Morph.

Also, stealth casting Moa Morph is not a guarantee. Even if it was, that means it takes an extra CD just to land the skill.

cyyrix.6105:

StickerHappy.8052:

Windwalker.7421:

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Moa is more effective than lich, how? cast it from stealth you get an unavoidable moa, no tells, no counterplay. Unless they get a lucky dodge or block.

Lich on the other hand? Reflects eat lich alive, (which we have a lot), lich can be stripped on stab (making him susceptible to CC for a short period of time), You can just runaway from lich, you can LOS lich, you can immob lich then runaway, I mean this should be a no brainer, Lich is very squishy as kitten.

I mean come on, I am not defending necro by any chance, I would rather be constructive and fair on arguments If I were you. I do not want to sound like the thieves forum.

You are saying Lich is better than Moa? how? Do you see a condimancer run lich?
Moa can be ran by any mesmer build and still produce very effective results.

Necros have elites that synergize with their builds. Condimancers don’t run Lich because Plague exists. It’s weird that you’re using that as an argument for mesmer elites being more effective. I’m sure condi mesmers would love to run an elite that spammed conditions instead of Moa Morph.

Also, stealth casting Moa Morph is not a guarantee. Even if it was, that means it takes an extra CD just to land the skill.

Not a guarantee because of lucky dodges? lol. So what if it takes an extra cd to land it? locking someone down from his original skillset for 10 secs is worth it.

Builds you say? Dude, MoA is useful in any situation or build in pvp, Why would condi mesmers take an elite that spams condis with all the condi cleanses going around? IF YOU DISAGREE, why is that condi mesmer is not meta?

“Necros have elites that synergize with their builds. Condimancers don’t run Lich because Plague exists. It’s weird that you’re using that as an argument for mesmer elites being more effective.” <————Your argument is the one which is weird, if CondiNecros had MoA, I bet you they would take it over plague.. The main point is that Necros don’t have that Elite that is useful regardless of the build like MoA. Don’t use the Flesh Golem rebuttal, for all we know AI is in a bad state in this game.

10 seconds where the whole team can gang up on that target? Yes please. Also Mesmers in general have the best elites in the game if not the best.

I would say that plague is a really crappy elite, when a necro pops it, he is a floating “HIT ME” sign like lich, blinds and the stomps are the meaningful pros of it (out of desperation only or need since why would you risk a safe stomp in normal circumstances for 180 secs). Plague is a joke.

StickerHappy.8052:

cyyrix.6105:

StickerHappy.8052:

Windwalker.7421:

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Moa is more effective than lich, how? cast it from stealth you get an unavoidable moa, no tells, no counterplay. Unless they get a lucky dodge or block.

Lich on the other hand? Reflects eat lich alive, (which we have a lot), lich can be stripped on stab (making him susceptible to CC for a short period of time), You can just runaway from lich, you can LOS lich, you can immob lich then runaway, I mean this should be a no brainer, Lich is very squishy as kitten.

I mean come on, I am not defending necro by any chance, I would rather be constructive and fair on arguments If I were you. I do not want to sound like the thieves forum.

You are saying Lich is better than Moa? how? Do you see a condimancer run lich?
Moa can be ran by any mesmer build and still produce very effective results.

Necros have elites that synergize with their builds. Condimancers don’t run Lich because Plague exists. It’s weird that you’re using that as an argument for mesmer elites being more effective. I’m sure condi mesmers would love to run an elite that spammed conditions instead of Moa Morph.

Also, stealth casting Moa Morph is not a guarantee. Even if it was, that means it takes an extra CD just to land the skill.

Not a guarantee because of lucky dodges? lol. So what if it takes an extra cd to land it? locking someone down from his original skillset for 10 secs is worth it.

Builds you say? Dude, MoA is useful in any situation or build in pvp, Why would condi mesmers take an elite that spams condis with all the condi cleanses going around? IF YOU DISAGREE, why is that condi mesmer is not meta?

“Necros have elites that synergize with their builds. Condimancers don’t run Lich because Plague exists. It’s weird that you’re using that as an argument for mesmer elites being more effective.” <————Your argument is the one which is weird, if CondiNecros had MoA, I bet you they would take it over plague.. The main point is that Necros don’t have that Elite that is useful regardless of the build like MoA. Don’t use the Flesh Golem rebuttal, for all we know AI is in a bad state in this game.

10 seconds where the whole team can gang up on that target? Yes please. Also Mesmers in general have the best elites in the game if not the best.

I would say that plague is a really crappy elite, when a necro pops it, he is a floating “HIT ME” sign like lich, blinds and the stomps are the meaningful pros of it (out of desperation only or need since why would you risk a safe stomp in normal circumstances for 180 secs). Plague is a joke.

Couple of problems with this post. First you and TyPin are remarking on the unreasonable attitudes found in this thread, yet you frequently respond to that variety of post. There are a number of reasonable posts you somehow overlook in your quest to move the conversation forward.

Second in your attempt to move the conversation forward you use fun words like crappy and kitten. I call it the Pyro affect/effect and it makes the thread about responding to perceived character attacks or lousy attitudes. If I wanted to read people writing LOL in response to a post I would look for a teenager. I wouldn’t be searching for it in the posts of a newly appointed OMFG officer. Someone who should be socializing with community, not getting into silly arguments.

Third, your hyped up arguing over how bad something like Plague is makes me sad. It allows someone to survive a three vs one assault on a point until hopefully assistance can arrive. Moa only fully locksdown one target. Lich has the potential to wipe a full team, Moa does not.

You need to decide for yourself whether this is a debate or a discussion or an argument. And whether you want it to be what it is right now.

Daniel Handler.4816:

StickerHappy.8052:

cyyrix.6105:

StickerHappy.8052:

Windwalker.7421:

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Moa is more effective than lich, how? cast it from stealth you get an unavoidable moa, no tells, no counterplay. Unless they get a lucky dodge or block.

Lich on the other hand? Reflects eat lich alive, (which we have a lot), lich can be stripped on stab (making him susceptible to CC for a short period of time), You can just runaway from lich, you can LOS lich, you can immob lich then runaway, I mean this should be a no brainer, Lich is very squishy as kitten.

I mean come on, I am not defending necro by any chance, I would rather be constructive and fair on arguments If I were you. I do not want to sound like the thieves forum.

You are saying Lich is better than Moa? how? Do you see a condimancer run lich?
Moa can be ran by any mesmer build and still produce very effective results.

Necros have elites that synergize with their builds. Condimancers don’t run Lich because Plague exists. It’s weird that you’re using that as an argument for mesmer elites being more effective. I’m sure condi mesmers would love to run an elite that spammed conditions instead of Moa Morph.

Also, stealth casting Moa Morph is not a guarantee. Even if it was, that means it takes an extra CD just to land the skill.

Not a guarantee because of lucky dodges? lol. So what if it takes an extra cd to land it? locking someone down from his original skillset for 10 secs is worth it.

Builds you say? Dude, MoA is useful in any situation or build in pvp, Why would condi mesmers take an elite that spams condis with all the condi cleanses going around? IF YOU DISAGREE, why is that condi mesmer is not meta?

“Necros have elites that synergize with their builds. Condimancers don’t run Lich because Plague exists. It’s weird that you’re using that as an argument for mesmer elites being more effective.” <————Your argument is the one which is weird, if CondiNecros had MoA, I bet you they would take it over plague.. The main point is that Necros don’t have that Elite that is useful regardless of the build like MoA. Don’t use the Flesh Golem rebuttal, for all we know AI is in a bad state in this game.

10 seconds where the whole team can gang up on that target? Yes please. Also Mesmers in general have the best elites in the game if not the best.

I would say that plague is a really crappy elite, when a necro pops it, he is a floating “HIT ME” sign like lich, blinds and the stomps are the meaningful pros of it (out of desperation only or need since why would you risk a safe stomp in normal circumstances for 180 secs). Plague is a joke.

Couple of problems with this post. First you and TyPin are remarking on the unreasonable attitudes found in this thread, yet you frequently respond to that variety of post. There are a number of reasonable posts you somehow overlook in your quest to move the conversation forward.

Second in your attempt to move the conversation forward you use fun words like crappy and kitten. I call it the Pyro affect/effect and it makes the thread about responding to perceived character attacks or lousy attitudes. If I wanted to read people writing LOL in response to a post I would look for a teenager. I wouldn’t be searching for it in the posts of a newly appointed OMFG officer. Someone who should be socializing with community, not getting into silly arguments.

Third, your hyped up arguing over how bad something like Plague is makes me sad. It allows someone to survive a three vs one assault on a point until hopefully assistance can arrive. Moa only fully locksdown one target. Lich has the potential to wipe a full team, Moa does not.

You need to decide for yourself whether this is a debate or a discussion or an argument. And whether you want it to be what it is right now.

Perhaps you can instruct the community to have a non biased approach then. Clearly all these arguments are all mesmer biased. I am a mesmer too, but wouldn’t it be better to have a non biased approach?

Also the argument the one I quoted was saying that necro elites synergizes with the build so making it kinda build based, so I said that MoA is not build centric, which serves it purpose regardless of the build, is that wrong?

Perhaps you can instruct the community to have a non biased approach then. Clearly all these arguments are all mesmer biased. I am a mesmer too, but wouldn’t it be better to have a non biased approach?

Also the argument the one I quoted was saying that necro elites synergizes with the build so making it kinda build based, so I said that MoA is not build centric, which serves it purpose regardless of the build, is that wrong?

Some of these arguments have mesmer bias some do not.
And your approach has never approached non bias in reasoning. Reminder that including a true statement in your argument does not make the whole argument correct. Mesmer elites are not build centric, but Moa is not better than Lich. All of the transformations, except for Moa have aoe benefit. Mass invisibility has aoe benefit. Why would I want a skill that only kills one opponent at the expense of losing mass invisibilty. Supcutie has stated that for the most part MI is preferable to Moa for the res benefit. If I have a skill on 180 CD I want it to be game changing. I place Moa in the same space as the elite Thieves Guild for thieves, it’s a good skill but there are SO many better options that aren’t as niche. Lich is nice and when executed perfectly can kill 2-5 people. I’ll be speaking to Chaos about whether such an appointment was justified, clearly you have the communities interests at heart. I’ll also instruct the community at large that they need to “have a non biased approach”.

TyPin.9860:

WARNING
There is sarcasm hidden in this post
Finder deserves a cooky

Windwalker.7421:

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Why do you take my trolling so serious, when I even say I trolled? Rofl. Someone feels to overly justify himself. Afraid your point isn’t valid enough so you have to even respond to troll posts?

Nonetheless. Since you feed me: My original suggestion completely counters Lich. And it helps the Mesmer, being protected from the ultra strong Moa, which for some reason turns at 50% Mesmer health into a killer machine. Or if the Mesmer is, for some impossible reason after casting Moa from stealth, still over 50% health, the lack of Moa helps the Mesmer kill the Necro. Cuz without Moa he cannot simply charge in unspeakable distances with #5.

I only wanna help the poor Mesmers and protect them from the repercussions of Moa. When infact they have no other means to counter the total OPness of unbeatable Lich.

This post makes me sad and annoyed. If you want to broadcast your opinions perhaps a bulletin board will be more useful, it will talk back to you less and doesn’t mind any vitriol. I understand that this is the Internet and you think this is fun, but what does it do for all the people who just want to have casual conversations without crap like this.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Couple of problems with this post. First you and TyPin are remarking on the unreasonable attitudes found in this thread, yet you frequently respond to that variety of post. There are a number of reasonable posts you somehow overlook in your quest to move the conversation forward.

Is there a moving forward? There were some suggestions about when Moa wears off you might turn back into Lich. But there was no further reaction to it. I did in fact respond to the reasonable posts. And I accepted the opposing positions, which weren’t based on falsehoods. However, there was no further reaction to that other than funny baseless remarks, like the one from Windwalker.

Daniel Handler.4816:

This post makes me sad and annoyed. If you want to broadcast your opinions perhaps a bulletin board will be more useful, it will talk back to you less and doesn’t mind any vitriol. I understand that this is the Internet and you think this is fun, but what does it do for all the people who just want to have casual conversations without crap like this.

The reason why I respond the way I respond is easy to understand. I am getting annoyed with ppl that base their arguments on falsehoods and even don’t really read my posts, but still respond to them inadequately. Even after I have focused my attention on those calmly, those fallacies come up again. Why should I invest in the conversation, when widely there is no interest in it. The constructive posts don’t get deeper discussed and instead more and more people, who base their positions on falsehoods and fallacies, come into this thread.

I personally don’t think it is fun. It is actually quite sad. If ppl wanted a casual discussion, they can have it. Casual but does not mean to shut down one’s opinion by promoting falsehoods and contributing to logical fallacies… repeatedly.