Guild Wars 2

Please, no more argumentative replies. More thoughts on Moa vs Lich, of course, are welcome as well as feedback.

Personally, I like keenlam’s idea, however I’d want a duration increase of Moa to 15 seconds as well as a partial cool down decrease, maybe to 120 seconds, since we added time to the Moa duration.

Calliope.8675:

Please, no more argumentative replies. More thoughts on Moa vs Lich, of course, are welcome as well as feedback.

Personally, I like keenlam’s idea, however I’d want a duration increase of Moa to 15 seconds as well as a partial cool down decrease, maybe to 120 seconds, since we added time to the Moa duration.

Remember that with Chronomancer Moa can have a double decrease in CD and you end up with two Moa every 90 seconds. If we lowered the base to 120 and increased duration to 15, you could Moa someone two times every 60 second. This would make it possible to have someone Moaed for 50% of any fight. I think necro would like that even less.

On the topic of other counters existing for lich…this is more of a half-truth than anything else.

How about reflects?

Yes, reflects do a nice job of countering lich. No, nobody usually has any reasonable access to reflects in PvP, especially not the mesmer.

The vast majority of mesmers don’t run with a focus (the majority of our reflects when traited). The vast majority of mesmers that run with a focus don’t trait it, so that source of reflects is gone.

The vast majority of mesmers don’t run with mirror, because now and then reflecting something isn’t worth the massive healing boost that ether feast enjoys over it (might change once it’s a manip and has a lower cd).

This leaves feedback (a utility skill that fits somewhere between blink, decoy, and a condie removal somehow?) and masterful reflection, which only works for the mesmer themselves, and for a maximum of 4 seconds. If the necro spams into that, they’re really bad.

How about other classes? Well, of the other classes you find in PvP, the only one with access to reflects would be the guardian, through wall of reflection. Now and then you’ll see this taken, but it’s comparatively rare. In addition, the necro can just walk around it, or choose targets that are on the same side of the wall.

How about CC?

Ok, ccing a necro in lich isn’t actually a thing. Yes, I know some people have given lovely anecdotes about ‘that one time they interrupted a necro in lich form’. This requires you to unload 4 hard ccs in 3 seconds onto the lich. That’s higher than a cc per second, on average. While this is possible to do for a second or two perhaps (the cc from a single burst of shatters and such), it’s not a counter unless you can reliably keep them locked down.

If you want to argue that you can actually lock down a lich, you’re going to have to show me skills that are able to provide a cc rate of 4 hard ccs per 3 seconds (and no, rampage is NOT an acceptable answer).

The other alternative, of course, is continual boon stripping. However, due to the high re-application rate of the boons, not even a pDisenchanter can keep up with it. That’s not even counting various other boons they’ll be getting from their party. Since mesmer boon stripping doesn’t prioritize stab (if anything, it’s low priority based on my testing) it’s nearly impossible to strip that stab in any situation other than by pure dumb luck.

So….what does that leave us with? Well, the answer is that it leaves us with moa. An elite skill on an even longer cooldown that has close to no use other than to counter other transformation elites. An elite skill that by taking it forces us to lose either massive offensive utility or massive defensive utility. A skill that does literally nothing in an entire match other than counter someone else’s slightly shorter cd but far more dangerous elite is, if anything, underpowered, not overpowered.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Calliope.8675:

Please, no more argumentative replies. More thoughts on Moa vs Lich, of course, are welcome as well as feedback.

Personally, I like keenlam’s idea, however I’d want a duration increase of Moa to 15 seconds as well as a partial cool down decrease, maybe to 120 seconds, since we added time to the Moa duration.

Remember that with Chronomancer Moa can have a double decrease in CD and you end up with two Moa every 90 seconds. If we lowered the base to 120 and increased duration to 15, you could Moa someone two times every 60 second. This would make it possible to have someone Moaed for 50% of any fight. I think necro would like that even less.

Keenlam’s idea was for a 105s cd and maintaining the 10s duration. So I think we’d break even here, almost. shrug =) I don’t use moa very much in pvp unless I just want to have fun and troll as mes. Mass Invis is much more useful to me nine times out of ten.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Remember that with Chronomancer Moa can have a double decrease in CD and you end up with two Moa every 90 seconds.

…. Are you sure that chrono can stack even remotely close to this much CD reduction?

@Fay
The common IP power shatter for instance has a 4s (or so) reflect. Also CCing a lich is a thing. With just F3 (again talking IP power shatter) you will likely daze him. Abusing LoS is the most common counter or just meleeing the lich and moving through him to force him to turn also puts the Lich in a tough spot. Those are all no hard counters of course. And nobody actually claimed you could effectively lock a Lich down (well except with Moa of course). Also non-Mesmer counters to Lich are available to other classes. Most commonly I as a Lich am countered by Guardians (blocks/blinds) and D/P theives (Black Poweder: blinds). It ain’t half truths, those are things I experience all the time when I use that Elite.

I was playing yesterday and today PvP matches as Mesmer again. I used IP power shatter GS and Sword/Focus and as Elite Moa. I did this to test the claims of Lich being borderline impossible to counter without Moa and how hard it actually is to land Moa.

And as I remembered from before: Lich, when unattended, just destroys everything. But when even just one capable player focuses the Lich, the party for him is mostly over. I do not know where the ideas of unconquerable Lich come from, but in my experience that isn’t so hard.

@Moa Morph Effectiveness:
But more importantly: How easy/hard is it to use/hit Moa. I remember 2 times, where Moa failed. One was on a ranger, who just avoided it with a random dodge. The other one was on a necromancer, when a guardian had blinded me. Other than that, if the enemy team had a necro, I focused him right away and always made that Lich go away. Of course this is only after 2 days of testing and the result might be different after more testing. But I felt like cheating using Moa^^

Especially when the foe is Moa’d and you lock him down with Focus and sword, you can just snipe a target. Which I did repeatedly.

@Topic:
I also like keenlams idea. I like it even better than my own Here again, what he wrote:

keenlam.4753:

My suggestion is that, since transformation elites usually last longer than 10s of Moa.
When you get Moa’d, you will still go back to your transformation after 10s instead of going all back to normal form.
For example, to clarify, u go Lich form, a mesmer moas you when you’re already 3s in your elite form, you become a moa for 10s, then after that, you get back to your Lich Form for the remaining 17s.

I think it would be a fair change. Not sure if Anet has the code sorted out to do it or not yet though.
To compensate for this change though, Polymorph Moa cooldown has to reduce to match the lowest transformation cooldown currently in the game, that is, 105s to make it more effective to “temporarily” counter enemy transformation for 10s.

The thing is, if the Mesmer is competent, this change might be even a buff to Moa. Because if you are good, you can kill the necromancer after you moa’d him and still can use it more often.

TyPin.9860:

@Fay
The common IP power shatter for instance has a 4s (or so) reflect.

So, as I said, the lich autoattacks somebody else for 4 seconds.

TyPin.9860:

Also CCing a lich is a thing. With just F3 (again talking IP power shatter) you will likely daze him.

Yes, you dazed him. For 1 second. Out of the 20 seconds he’s in lich form. This is why I stated that CC is not a counter to lich form. CCing the lich for a second is in no way, shape, or form anything even resembling a counter or lockdown.

TyPin.9860:

Abusing LoS is the most common counter

This is more commonly known as ‘running away’. It works fine, but it guarantees you to lose whatever fight you were previously in.

TyPin.9860:

or just meleeing the lich and moving through him to force him to turn also puts the Lich in a tough spot.

If ‘forcing the lich to turn’ is your idea of countering them…I’ve got some bad news for you.

TyPin.9860:

And nobody actually claimed you could effectively lock a Lich down (well except with Moa of course).

Really? Lets see…

TyPin.9860:

I myself have locked down Lichs in PvP and have been locked down by Mesmers under Lich form both IP Power Shatter and Lockdown alike without the use of Moa.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you literally said exactly that. I’m just saying that you’re wrong.

TyPin.9860:

Most commonly I as a Lich am countered by Guardians (blocks/blinds)

Aegis and single blinds do not counter autoattacks. What you’re confusing are the terms ‘counter’ and ‘damage control’. Aegis and blinds can do damage control on the incredible amount of power a lich has, they don’t counter it.

TyPin.9860:

and D/P theives (Black Poweder: blinds). It ain’t half truths, those are things I experience all the time when I use that Elite.

If you stay still and stand in a black powder, then you’re not playing well. Thief blinds outside of you literally just standing still in a black powder are similar to guards in that they’ll block one attack here and there, but the bulk of the damage will still get through.

TyPin.9860:

And as I remembered from before: Lich, when unattended, just destroys everything. But when even just one capable player focuses the Lich, the party for him is mostly over. I do not know where the ideas of unconquerable Lich come from, but in my experience that isn’t so hard.

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

Ultimately, again, this all adds up to moa being the only actual effective and realistic counter to lich form. Everything else either doesn’t actually work if you apply just a bit of critical thinking to it, or involves losing the fight one way or another.

TyPin.9860:

But more importantly: How easy/hard is it to use/hit Moa. I remember 2 times, where Moa failed. One was on a ranger, who just avoided it with a random dodge. The other one was on a necromancer, when a guardian had blinded me. Other than that, if the enemy team had a necro, I focused him right away and always made that Lich go away. Of course this is only after 2 days of testing and the result might be different after more testing. But I felt like cheating using Moa^^

Two days really isn’t much time. Also, you’re not the first to complain about Moa. It’s gone through both nerfs and re-buffs. It sure feels like cheating when you’re on the receiving end, but it’s easy to forget about all of the times you dodged it or were able to flee/LoS until it expired.

The fact remains that Moa didn’t see much high level play until the last 8 months or so (around when Lich started to become popular). That’s because it isn’t as strong as you think, not because there’s some unwritten honor code about overpowered elites.

@Fay:
Okay, the lock down comment was really wrong wording from me. What I meant was, to have the Lich so occupied, that he basically is rendered useless. But yes, it is beyond ridiculous to say (and mean^^) you can lock down a Lich as Mesmer in the traditional sense.

But why are you now using semantics concerning counters? What constitutes a “counter” to your definition? If my damage is nullified, I understand this as a counter. Because dmg (the only “utility” Lich Form has) is nullified.

And the low attack frequency of Lich allows for reapplying blindness or X amount of blocks to be very effective. And yes, standing in blinding powder is stupid. Moving out of it is a no-brainer. But it is often enough to stop one or two projectiles. And it’s not like it can’t be reapplied or is the only source of blindness. If we keep observing D/P thieves, they can imob you with short bow from stealth and then blinding powder you. Don’t let me now explain every single strategy that can be used to deal with Lich.

Also have you fought competent guardians with Lich? Multiple blind applications (GS#3, Focus #4 + bounces, traited F1) and have reliable blocks/invulns (focus #5, Renewed Focus) and Aegis.

Both btw. Thief and Guardian, have good chances to kill you, while your damage is nullified. You can try to still do damage to someone else during this, but likely chances are, you might not even hit something and go down…

F3 shatter has basically the same effectiveness on Lich than on any other foe with Shattered Concentration. With F4 already one reflected Lich attack can screw things over for the Necromancer. Also you can still stand in the line of the projectile, even if the Lich targets someone else (not easy though).

On many maps there are obstacles that can easily be used to LoS Lich without “running away”. In 1v1 situation forcing the Lich to turn actually is a valid and effective strategy.

Fay.2357:

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

Ultimately, again, this all adds up to moa being the only actual effective and realistic counter to lich form. Everything else either doesn’t actually work if you apply just a bit of critical thinking to it, or involves losing the fight one way or another.

No. Meditation Guardians are actually quite capable of countering Lich. They are mobile, meaning they can charge the Lich even if he positions himself advantageously and have a high dmg output while in the same time they can deny Lich damage. Same goes for thieves. Neither are Mesmers without Moa defenseless against Lich form, nor is it the case that Moa is the only counter to Lich. As I explained, Guardians and thieves can quite handy counter a Lich without even having to go out of their way.

Are you telling me that as Mesmer you actually commonly lose against Lich when he focuses you back?

Again, it is fine if ppl disagree with me on the need to nerf Moa. But claiming Lich cannot be countered is wrong or all my PvP experiences as Necro and Mesmer stand in contrast to the rest of the PvP community.

EDIT:
I must admit btw that it is fun to cancel lich with moa and then actually lock down the Necor and slaughter him^^

When you’re losing 4-5k hp a hit you don’t have a lot of options as a mesmer except to go on the defensive or peel and run for it (all the while hoping you don’t get smacked by any of the necro’s teammates). I have successfully negated Lich form once, but it required burning all of my defenses. It’s not easy for a mesmer to headbutt a necro in Lich and come out on top.

1. Blind spam is fairly good against Liches.
2. …
3. Therefore, Moa shouldn’t be good against Liches.

I fail to see the significance of people complaining about Lich being a giant attack me sign.

It’s not that I don’t see the giant green dps machine, it’s that there’s never a moment in a fight I do not make a conscious effort to hard CC and kill the necro….except in plague form and with over 50% health. Why that last bit? Coz you’re wasting your time trying to DPS/kill a necro in plague if you have other targets around.

@Calliope:
I agree it isn’t easy. Depending on build and situation, it can be a challenge for Mesmers. But nonetheless, Lich has counters and Moa isn’t by far the only thing keeping Lich in check, as some would claim.

@ASP:
That is not my argument. And I think you know that.

There are two issues here. The one is about the state of Lich, the other is about the state of Moa. While many here claim there are nearly no counters to Lich Form except Moa, I say there are counters. And I have tried to explain that. The proclaimed (but imo false claim) existence of no counters is brought forward as one argument against a possible Moa change/nerf.

The other issue here is about Moa itself and how it can be countered. Also this is partly brought forward as a reason that Moa should not be nerfed. I agree that I can not that easily refute this, for I have not much personal experience using Moa.

Then there is another issue. People claim that Moa should counter Lich. And my suggestion actually does not change that. Mesmer already counters Necros in most instances. What I ask in my suggestion is to give Necros a bit of a chance to actually do something after their Elite was denied. As Necro, not as Moa, the Necromancer might stand at least a little chance. Other than that a successful Moa in the current state is in most cases a dead Necromancer. This is too strong of a contrast imo.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Fay was saying not that counters don’t exist, it’s that builds don’t have the room for them due to needing other utilities instead.

Naturally a high uptime on reflects or projectile blocks would neuter a lich, however what classes can actually afford to slot that against what is currently meta and thus usually more useful? The only class I can think of is ele by choosing offhand focus.

Most other classes would be making very radical changes to traits or gimping their utility to simply provide that counter. Which leads to non reflect counter, which is as far as I can tell moa, again, looking at what you’d have to give up etc. It’s also worth asking, if it wasn’t for this effect would anyone even use moa? I know I only ever use it for comedy value and even rate racials (in WvW) higher than moa.

I agree for the case of Mesmer. Mesmer could 24/7 counter Lich if they build for it. But as Fay says, that is unlikely… cuz you would be kinda useless otherwise. I had for a long time a Phantasm build, that included the focus reflection trait. But yeah, I grew out of it^^

Is it hard for a Mesmer to fight a Lich without Moa? Yes most certainly. But that doesn’t mean there are no other counters to Lich than Moa (see my previous post, especially guardian and thieves).

I honestly had no idea how Mesmers feel about Lich up until this thread. I met Lichs many times in WvW and in PvP and always felt I can keep them under control, if I am careful. And usually I don’t use Moa. But apparently Lich is seen as an unstoppable machine of destruction that only Moa can keep in check…

ASP.8093:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Remember that with Chronomancer Moa can have a double decrease in CD and you end up with two Moa every 90 seconds.

…. Are you sure that chrono can stack even remotely close to this much CD reduction?

Very. 20 percent traited reduction from whatever category it becomes, and then permanent alacrity. Means that maintaining a good rhythm for a fight lasting two minutes leads to two Moa at start and two Moa 1min30 in.

Also really important is what the difference between counter and damage control is.

With a counter:

• no part of the desired effect of the skill occurs
• ex. with feedback from the instance the skill is cast I own the projectile and all its effects and the caster does not benefit in any way.

With damage control

• parts of the skill occur but damage is prevented
• ex. with black powder/whatever I perma blind a Mesmer as they are shattering. I am not harmed but the mesmer still gets the benefits of having shattered.

What this means is that reflects are not counters for Lich. They can still do other stuff.

TyPin.9860:

And the low attack frequency of Lich allows for reapplying blindness or X amount of blocks to be very effective.

What? The lich auto fires every 1.1 seconds (according to the wiki). That’s not a low attack frequency by any stretch of the imagination. I’d like to see you apply a block or blind every 1.1 seconds.

TyPin.9860:

If we keep observing D/P thieves, they can imob you with short bow from stealth and then blinding powder you. Don’t let me now explain every single strategy that can be used to deal with Lich.

This isn’t exactly safe or easy for the thief to do you realize. The immob has to hit, then they have to get close enough to drop the blinding powder without the lich instakilling them (yes, this is possible on a thief. A single attack will do 5.5k to a thief, and any other damage drops them into range of chill of death to finish them off), and then the lich has to not use any condition removal, which they do have access to. On top of all that, the immob only lasts 2 seconds. Hardly a good counter.

TyPin.9860:

Also have you fought competent guardians with Lich? Multiple blind applications (GS#3, Focus #4 + bounces, traited F1) and have reliable blocks/invulns (focus #5, Renewed Focus) and Aegis.

Again, none of these can stop an autoattack. Imagine a warrior standing in front of you with an axe. He is autoattacking. You’re not allowed to move out of range, but you’re allowed to use blinds and blocks to drop and stop the attacks. How much do you think you could stop?

The answer is: not a lot. You could stop a couple, for a little bit, but the vast majority of damage would come through.

TyPin.9860:

Both btw. Thief and Guardian, have good chances to kill you, while your damage is nullified. You can try to still do damage to someone else during this, but likely chances are, you might not even hit something and go down…

While your damage is nullified? You’re saying this like anything you’ve mentioned stops more than a single autoattack from the lich. A thief (as I explained above) can very potentially be instakilled by a lich autoattack. A medi-guard would take maybe 3 hits.

TyPin.9860:

On many maps there are obstacles that can easily be used to LoS Lich without “running away”. In 1v1 situation forcing the Lich to turn actually is a valid and effective strategy.

There’s only one point in the game that has the ability to LoS without leaving the point. Leaving the point is effectively running away as far as PvP is concerned.

TyPin.9860:

Are you telling me that as Mesmer you actually commonly lose against Lich when he focuses you back?

When I have the occurrence of fighting a lich, I’m generally in a build with 3000 armor, a block, and double energy sigils. If it’s just me and the lich from the start, there’s absolutely no way I’ll be able to go toe go toe with them. If you’d like to dispute that, feel free to produce a video of you doing so.

On top of all of this, you’re completely ignoring something huge.

If I boil down all your suggestions for countering lich, they basically come to ‘if the thief, guard, and mesmer on your team all throw literally everything they have at the lich, they can be controlled.’ So…what is the rest of the lich’s team doing in this fight? Do you think they’re standing on the sidelines twiddling their thumbs and waiting for you guys to finish killing their necromancer?

Of course they’re not. While you guys are unloading literally every single damage avoidance utility that you have on the lich, they’ll be going to town on you. The potential ability to keep a lich from decimating your team is completely meaningless if it requires your team to have a 100% concerted effort to keep them from doing so.

Again, I’m sure you’re going to reply with something along the lines of ‘oh, but it doesn’t take 100% team effort to do that, just a single good guardian or mesmer can go toe to toe with a lich no problem.’ Before you say that, prove it. Common knowledge says that a massive cooldown, incredibly powerful elite isn’t going to be countered by just a single glassy person spamming a couple blinds. If you really want to make the claim that you can duel a lich one on one as a guard or mesmer, go do it, record it, and show it to us. Until you manage that, I’m going to just label any claims of that feat as pure fantasy.

All theory asside: I asked in the Thief and the Guardian sub forum about how they fair against Lichs. What came up so far:

Thief
Depends on the surprise factor. If the thief sees the Lich coming, they say it isn’t much of an issue to deal with. But if the Lich surprises the Thief it is likely that the thief will be one or two shot. One guy even wrote this:

Vornollo.5182:

Stealths and Blinds from D/P make Liches almost a cakewalk though.

Guardian
Their responses were actually more differentiated. Some said you cannot 1v1 a Lich, others said it is easy to los and kite Lich and others said, if you have sword and focus you can melee 1v1 a Lich all day. Not sure yet what to think of it.

Fay.2357:

Again, I’m sure you’re going to reply with something along the lines of ‘oh, but it doesn’t take 100% team effort to do that, just a single good guardian or mesmer can go toe to toe with a lich no problem.’ Before you say that, prove it.

I am working on it. I have no practice at guardian and suck at being thief, so I will stick with Mesmer. But so far I had no real encounters with Lich worthy of showing (cuz the outcome wasn’t really depended on me) and one huge fail, where I ran in every AA of the Lich^^

However, the opposite claim, that Lich just defeats everything 1v1 when not Moa’d is also a claim I have seen no prove of yet.

Btw: I still prefer to fight a Lich on point than a medi guardian or a warrio^^

Excuse me… raises hand I would like to reiterate that I have successfully survived a Lich attack once. I did have three clones up to pop for distortion. I did have decoy off cool down. I had mass invis off cool down for use as well. I had chaos storm ready for use and blurred frenzy… Everything was ready for me to use to save myself and I burnt practically all of them to do it. I can’t say fighting a Lich will go in the mesmer’s favor every time. It won’t. I’m pretty sure at the point that the necro popped Lich I was at 75% HP. I popped my heals to make sure I was at full HP after the first hit and I was kiting on point. Granted, if the necro’s team had been there and I wasn’t 1v1’ing the necro, I probably would have had to peel or just die. In matches, everything is situational. Yeah, if I’m caught at 25% hp (with no defenses) and the necro pops Lich with the intent to focus me down first I am probably going to die.

So, in ideal circumstances, I think a mesmer could hold their own in a 1v1 with a Lich’d necro. With the same sentiment as the thieves, if I don’t see you coming and you get the drop on me…

Calliope.8675:

Excuse me… raises hand I would like to reiterate that I have successfully survived a Lich attack once. I did have three clones up to pop for distortion. I did have decoy off cool down. I had mass invis off cool down for use as well. I had chaos storm ready for use and blurred frenzy… Everything was ready for me to use to save myself and I burnt practically all of them to do it. I can’t say fighting a Lich will go in the mesmer’s favor every time. It won’t. I’m pretty sure at the point that the necro popped Lich I was at 75% HP. I popped my heals to make sure I was at full HP after the first hit and I was kiting on point. Granted, if the necro’s team had been there and I wasn’t 1v1’ing the necro, I probably would have had to peel or just die. In matches, everything is situational. Yeah, if I’m caught at 25% hp (with no defenses) and the necro pops Lich with the intent to focus me down first I am probably going to die.

So, in ideal circumstances, I think a mesmer could hold their own in a 1v1 with a Lich’d necro. With the same sentiment as the thieves, if I don’t see you coming and you get the drop on me…

That sounds absolutely awful. I wouldn’t call it surviving if you have to cut off your leg to escape the bear trap. This is a perfect example of why damage mitigation is not as good as countering. It expends far more resources and only makes you safer in the short term.

TyPin.9860:

However, the opposite claim, that Lich just defeats everything 1v1 when not Moa’d is also a claim I have seen no prove of yet.

I am casually interested how you document something fighting “everything” 1v1.

Haven’t you guys tried blinking away from the lich and waiting for the elite to wear off?

StickerHappy.8052:

Haven’t you guys tried blinking away from the lich and waiting for the elite to wear off?

This counts as running away. Last time I checked, running away from a fight is a good way to lose it and the point you were fighting over.

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

The thing with Lich is that you’re likely not popping it cold at the start of a fight. You’re probably popping it when everyone’s been at this for a while and burned a lot of resources: dodges, hp, cooldowns. So talking about how totally-fresh players (who aren’t even mesmers) can contain a Lich is kind of asking the wrong question.

(Moa, in turn, is less of a killer spell when you and your team aren’t ready to capitalize on it with lots of immob and burst.)

Daniel Handler.4816:

Calliope.8675:

Excuse me… raises hand I would like to reiterate that I have successfully survived a Lich attack once. I did have three clones up to pop for distortion. I did have decoy off cool down. I had mass invis off cool down for use as well. I had chaos storm ready for use and blurred frenzy… Everything was ready for me to use to save myself and I burnt practically all of them to do it. I can’t say fighting a Lich will go in the mesmer’s favor every time. It won’t. I’m pretty sure at the point that the necro popped Lich I was at 75% HP. I popped my heals to make sure I was at full HP after the first hit and I was kiting on point. Granted, if the necro’s team had been there and I wasn’t 1v1’ing the necro, I probably would have had to peel or just die. In matches, everything is situational. Yeah, if I’m caught at 25% hp (with no defenses) and the necro pops Lich with the intent to focus me down first I am probably going to die.

So, in ideal circumstances, I think a mesmer could hold their own in a 1v1 with a Lich’d necro. With the same sentiment as the thieves, if I don’t see you coming and you get the drop on me…

That sounds absolutely awful. I wouldn’t call it surviving if you have to cut off your leg to escape the bear trap. This is a perfect example of why damage mitigation is not as good as countering. It expends far more resources and only makes you safer in the short term.

TyPin.9860:

However, the opposite claim, that Lich just defeats everything 1v1 when not Moa’d is also a claim I have seen no prove of yet.

I am casually interested how you document something fighting “everything” 1v1.

Yeah, and I don’t really remember how the fight went after all of that. I think my team came and saved my bacon on point. I just remember being impressed that I survived at all, because Lich makes it near impossible.

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

EDIT:
I am not home over the weekend. So I will try, if I manage, to get some footage together during next week. I will try to be fair and not only select successful fights to show. I can admit when I am wrong. And if that will be the case, I will apologize for some of my rather rude posts.

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

Except that isn’t comparable proof. One is objective and mathematical and uses the coefficients of the skill, it requires no video. The other is subjective. You can’t always dodge the AA, but a Lich blast will always inflict damage in a high mathematical range if it hits. If you respond “but it doesn’t always hit”, you need to show me the probabilities of how often it hits. Again requiring a video.

Daniel Handler.4816:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

Except that isn’t comparable proof. One is objective and mathematical and uses the coefficients of the skill, it requires no video. The other is subjective. You can’t always dodge the AA, but a Lich blast will always inflict damage in a high mathematical range if it hits. If you respond “but it doesn’t always hit”, you need to show me the probabilities of how often it hits. Again requiring a video.

To expand on that idea:

Based on the math of the skill, I can say with absolute certainty that if you get hit ~5 times (absolute maximum, probably closer to 3 times) with the lich autoattack, you will die.

You’ve countered by saying ‘but you can block and dodge and blind all the attacks, so that’s not going to happen’.

I already proved my case, it’s on you to prove your statement.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

Except that isn’t comparable proof. One is objective and mathematical and uses the coefficients of the skill, it requires no video. The other is subjective. You can’t always dodge the AA, but a Lich blast will always inflict damage in a high mathematical range if it hits. If you respond “but it doesn’t always hit”, you need to show me the probabilities of how often it hits. Again requiring a video.

To expand on that idea:

Based on the math of the skill, I can say with absolute certainty that if you get hit ~5 times (absolute maximum, probably closer to 3 times) with the lich autoattack, you will die.

You’ve countered by saying ‘but you can block and dodge and blind all the attacks, so that’s not going to happen’.

I already proved my case, it’s on you to prove your statement.

If a mesmer takes mirror and has sword skills they can easily 1v1 a lich, its not even a problem for me as a 266 lockdown build with no stab strip on shatters. That said this argument is not about 1v1ing a lich its about if moa should cancel lich and still transform your foe. I believe the best solution is to have the necro return to lich after the duration of moa is over but others may chose differently if they believe differently or have different experiences.

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

Except that isn’t comparable proof. One is objective and mathematical and uses the coefficients of the skill, it requires no video. The other is subjective. You can’t always dodge the AA, but a Lich blast will always inflict damage in a high mathematical range if it hits. If you respond “but it doesn’t always hit”, you need to show me the probabilities of how often it hits. Again requiring a video.

To expand on that idea:

Based on the math of the skill, I can say with absolute certainty that if you get hit ~5 times (absolute maximum, probably closer to 3 times) with the lich autoattack, you will die.

You’ve countered by saying ‘but you can block and dodge and blind all the attacks, so that’s not going to happen’.

I already proved my case, it’s on you to prove your statement.

If a mesmer takes mirror and has sword skills they can easily 1v1 a lich, its not even a problem for me as a 266 lockdown build with no stab strip on shatters. That said this argument is not about 1v1ing a lich its about if moa should cancel lich and still transform your foe. I believe the best solution is to have the necro return to lich after the duration of moa is over but others may chose differently if they believe differently or have different experiences.

That’s easy to say, but significantly harder to do.

I’m assuming that you’re going to be very glassy, so you’ll have around 18.5k hp and 2100 armor. With those stats, every autoattack from the lich will hit you for ~5k damage, conservatively. This means that you get 3.7 hits before you’re dead. Tack on a bit of healing and I’ll give you 5…but then add in fire/air sigils and chill of death brings us back down to 3 at the most.

So, roughly speaking, you can get hit by 3 hits before you’re dead. Explain to me how a 2 second reflection and a 2.5 second evade are going to let you live through an autoattack roughly every second for 20 seconds.

As per usual, if you really feel you can do that, feel free to take a video of it happening. Until then, I’m going to call it nothing but fantasy.

The argument about 1v1 arose because people are using how weak Lich is or isn’t for why it does or does not deserve a hard counter. Those in favour of full counters generally find it to be formidable, and those against find it weak. I am generally in the line of thinking that equality in skills is based on their base CD (initiative and energy are not comparable to CD at the moment). Therefore Moa and Lich being equal in CD are equal in effect.

@Fay and Daniel:
You both are still missing my point. While you make a strong argument, it is no proof. You can stand here all day destroying my arguments. One could conclude you had better arguments then. However, argument =/= proof. From your point of view it would be more likely to prove your position, not mine. However, it is not the proof itself.

Or in other words:
First, assuming no one is lying here, everyone has more or less provided evidence. May it be anecdotal or not. Then there are the arguments. Your argument may seem valid, but that does not guarantee that the argument and its conclusion is actually true. Neither is a valid argument a proof of its premisses nor of its conclusion. To find out, if the argument is true, it requires experimentation. It requires an actual proof. You have demanded proof from me. Just because your point of view seems more logical/likely to you doesn’t mean that it replaces the need of proof.

Fay.2357:

Sadrien.3470:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

Except that isn’t comparable proof. One is objective and mathematical and uses the coefficients of the skill, it requires no video. The other is subjective. You can’t always dodge the AA, but a Lich blast will always inflict damage in a high mathematical range if it hits. If you respond “but it doesn’t always hit”, you need to show me the probabilities of how often it hits. Again requiring a video.

To expand on that idea:

Based on the math of the skill, I can say with absolute certainty that if you get hit ~5 times (absolute maximum, probably closer to 3 times) with the lich autoattack, you will die.

You’ve countered by saying ‘but you can block and dodge and blind all the attacks, so that’s not going to happen’.

I already proved my case, it’s on you to prove your statement.

If a mesmer takes mirror and has sword skills they can easily 1v1 a lich, its not even a problem for me as a 266 lockdown build with no stab strip on shatters. That said this argument is not about 1v1ing a lich its about if moa should cancel lich and still transform your foe. I believe the best solution is to have the necro return to lich after the duration of moa is over but others may chose differently if they believe differently or have different experiences.

That’s easy to say, but significantly harder to do.

I’m assuming that you’re going to be very glassy, so you’ll have around 18.5k hp and 2100 armor. With those stats, every autoattack from the lich will hit you for ~5k damage, conservatively. This means that you get 3.7 hits before you’re dead. Tack on a bit of healing and I’ll give you 5…but then add in fire/air sigils and chill of death brings us back down to 3 at the most.

So, roughly speaking, you can get hit by 3 hits before you’re dead. Explain to me how a 2 second reflection and a 2.5 second evade are going to let you live through an autoattack roughly every second for 20 seconds.

As per usual, if you really feel you can do that, feel free to take a video of it happening. Until then, I’m going to call it nothing but fantasy.

I’m counting LoS into a factor of my survival. And if I get in another 1v1 vs a lich necromancer I will get a recording program and show you it lol. It’s not a very hard fight if you know they are gonna lich. If your caught by surprise the first lich auto can take you to 50% hp and the second can kill you. ( assuming some sigil procs and the necromancer critting) if you plan on standing in front of a lich you need feedback.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The argument about 1v1 arose because people are using how weak Lich is or isn’t for why it does or does not deserve a hard counter. Those in favour of full counters generally find it to be formidable, and those against find it weak. I am generally in the line of thinking that equality in skills is based on their base CD (initiative and energy are not comparable to CD at the moment). Therefore Moa and Lich being equal in CD are equal in effect.

Uh well, with my suggestion Moa still would hard counter Lich itself. The suggestion of keenlam wouldn’t counter Lich completely. Yet it got more sympathizers.

My actual argument why Moa Morph should not transform a Lich to a Moa but only back to being Necromancer is neither based on the strengths of nor on other counter measures to Lich. When the Mesmer/ the Mesmer’s team is capable, the Moa’d Lich (as any Moa’d target) would basically be dead. This not only counters Lich Form, it also renders the Necromancer, if he uses his elite, a liability to his team. But the only useful elites of Necros are transforms.

I do not actually base my argument on the premise that Lich could be countered by other means. It was an argument that came up against my suggestion: Because Lich could not be countered by other means, Moa should remain the same. Although the effect to Lich would not even be change by my suggestion. It would only effect what happens, after Lich was already countered.

TyPin.9860:

Daniel Handler.4816:

The argument about 1v1 arose because people are using how weak Lich is or isn’t for why it does or does not deserve a hard counter. Those in favour of full counters generally find it to be formidable, and those against find it weak. I am generally in the line of thinking that equality in skills is based on their base CD (initiative and energy are not comparable to CD at the moment). Therefore Moa and Lich being equal in CD are equal in effect.

Uh well, with my suggestion Moa still would hard counter Lich itself. The suggestion of keenlam wouldn’t counter Lich completely. Yet it got more sympathizers.

My actual argument why Moa Morph should not transform a Lich to a Moa but only back to being Necromancer is neither based on the strengths of nor on other counter measures to Lich. When the Mesmer/ the Mesmer’s team is capable, the Moa’d Lich (as any Moa’d target) would basically be dead. This not only counters Lich Form, it also renders the Necromancer, if he uses his elite, a liability to his team. But the only useful elites of Necros are transforms.

I do not actually base my argument on the premise that Lich could be countered by other means. It was an argument that came up against my suggestion: Because Lich could not be countered by other means, Moa should remain the same. Although the effect to Lich would not even be change by my suggestion. It would only effect what happens, after Lich was already countered.

So logical arguments based on a mathematical proof require no experimentation.I also think you are confusing inductive vs deductive reasoning..

deductive:
Lich form does enough damage to kill a player in 1-5 attacks
That is the conclusion and its based on premises that are all mathematically true, e.g how how much damage it does and how much health a player can have. It will always be correct because all its premises are correct, and the conclusion follows from the premises.

inductive:
Lich form can be dodged or countered
That is the conclusion and its based on circumstantial evidence. Just like the claim that you can die from a heart attack, one should not assume that ALL Lich’s can be dodged or countered, just as you would not assume all people with heart attacks will die.

That is why we complained about your lack of proof. Inductive reasoning requires statistical analysis, deductive does not.

As for what your “point” really is. I must remind you that anyone Moaed is rendered useless to the team. Absolutely no reason to give Necro special treatment, they aren’t the only classes with Transform.

apharma.3741:

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Fay was saying not that counters don’t exist, it’s that builds don’t have the room for them due to needing other utilities instead.

Naturally a high uptime on reflects or projectile blocks would neuter a lich, however what classes can actually afford to slot that against what is currently meta and thus usually more useful? The only class I can think of is ele by choosing offhand focus.

Most other classes would be making very radical changes to traits or gimping their utility to simply provide that counter. Which leads to non reflect counter, which is as far as I can tell moa, again, looking at what you’d have to give up etc. It’s also worth asking, if it wasn’t for this effect would anyone even use moa? I know I only ever use it for comedy value and even rate racials (in WvW) higher than moa.

Because I’m lazy and don’t like typing it all out again.

And Daniel covers the rest.

P.s. Sadrien, why are you wanting to become a reflect bot in PvP as well? Mesmers deserve to be a class and not reflectatron 3000!

Sadrien.3470:

I’m counting LoS into a factor of my survival. And if I get in another 1v1 vs a lich necromancer I will get a recording program and show you it lol. It’s not a very hard fight if you know they are gonna lich. If your caught by surprise the first lich auto can take you to 50% hp and the second can kill you. ( assuming some sigil procs and the necromancer critting) if you plan on standing in front of a lich you need feedback.

Ok, so you’re counting LoS. Lets explore that for a moment.

So you’re fighting this necro. There’s basically 2 possibilities here. Either you’re 1v1ing on a point (why is a power necro 1v1ing a mesmer on a point?) or you’re the 1 guy sent to deal with the necro that’s tearing apart your team fight.

First possibility: on the point. Necro goes lich, you LoS. Congratulations, you just lost the point!

Second possibility: In a team fight. Necro goes lich, you go after necro, and then you LoS. Congratulations, you’re completely unable to engage the necro, and they can happily continue tearing apart your team!

In neither case do you accomplish anything successful. LoS is fine if you’re dueling just for the sake of dueling, but that’s not what this discussion is about.

@TyPin:

Let me note that I didn’t begin this discussion about lich counters, I simply entered it after seeing people erroneously stating that lich was easily countered by x y and z.

As for your original argument…it makes zero sense to me. Let me run through it real fast. You essentially stated that you think it hurts too much for a necro in lich form to be turned into a moa, because you usually end up dying while in moa form.

My question is…so what? What makes necros in lich form so special that when they get moad, they don’t actually go moa form? Dying in moa form is what happens to any player in the game when they get moad. Necromancers in lich form are no different, and the fact that they were in lich when they got hit with moa doesn’t make the ultimate outcome any different. The only thing that lich does is make the necro a high priority target for moa, due to moa being the single counter to lich form. What happens afterwards is simply what happens when someone gets moad.

There is no reason for a lich hit by moa not to end up as a moa. It’s not more painful for a necro in lich than it is for anyone else in the game. You get moad, you die, that’s just the way it works.

Fay said:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

What he says here is, that only because it can do high damage proves that he decimates things 1v1. You can argue as you want, but that is no proof. It is, as I have already said, a deduction. One can even argue if it is actually valid. The premise might be true, I am not arguing that, but the conjunction of premises and conclusion is not complete simply due to the existence of what you call “damage control”.

Kiting and dodging AAs reduces the dealt damage to 0… This is also true and is something Fay did not take into consideration in his “proof”. With his statement he reacted to what I said:

TyPin.9860:

However, the opposite claim, that Lich just defeats everything 1v1 when not Moa’d is also a claim I have seen no prove of yet.

There is no need to differentiate between inductive and deductive reasoning, when both statements aren’t proof. I knew that my “kiting proof” wasn’t actually a proof at all. And that it is inductive doesn’t change the fact, that deductive reasoning is no proof either (although generally accepted as the more valid/usefull reasoning).

@Topic:
First, I did not suggest Lich form to be an exception from other transforms. My suggestion was for all transforms. The peg on which to hang the topic simply was Lich Form. The only issue on top of my head I know, where elites can completely be nullified, is Moa and Moa in interaction with other Transforms. First, by a simple dodge/block/blind or whatever Moa can be completely nullified, seconds by Moa any Transform can be completely nullified. Yes anyone can be Moa’d, but in the current situation of the game, Moa is reserved by most players for Lich and other transforms. Lich, as has been told by several Mesmers, is often the only reason they even slot Moa.

The Necromancer currently is better of taking less useful elites like Flesh Golem or even just let the elite slot empty. Then he might get Moa’d less, for less Mesmers will slot Moa, if Lich wasn’t commonly used, or the slotted Moa might be even better used on that pesky Shoutbow Warrior^^. With Lich in most situations Necromancers in matches involving Mesmers (an any match I had so far as Powermancer, when the enemy team had a Mesmer, they used Moa) are a liability to their team. My idea was to reduce this liability factor.This was at least my initial thought process, which was actually just a casual thought I had and on which I asked for input… I am actually not that convinced any more myself.

The discussion although developed very unfriendly with the first post already calling out for me to “stop thinking”. It generally didn’t get better. And I honestly was shocked how Lich form is perceived by Mesmers, because I as main Mesmer never perceived Lich that threatening.

TyPin.9860:

Fay said:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

What he says here is, that only because it can do high damage proves that he decimates things 1v1. You can argue as you want, but that is no proof. It is, as I have already said, a deduction. One can even argue if it is actually valid. The premise might be true, I am not arguing that, but the conjunction of premises and conclusion is not complete simply due to the existence of what you call “damage control”.

Kiting and dodging AAs reduces the dealt damage to 0… This is also true and is something Fay did not take into consideration in his “proof”. With his statement he reacted to what I said:

TyPin.9860:

However, the opposite claim, that Lich just defeats everything 1v1 when not Moa’d is also a claim I have seen no prove of yet.

There is no need to differentiate between inductive and deductive reasoning, when both statements aren’t proof. I knew that my “kiting proof” wasn’t actually a proof at all. And that it is inductive doesn’t change the fact, that deductive reasoning is no proof either (although generally accepted as the more valid/usefull reasoning).

@Topic:
First, I did not suggest Lich form to be an exception from other transforms. My suggestion was for all transforms. The peg on which to hang the topic simply was Lich Form. The only issue on top of my head I know, where elites can completely be nullified, is Moa and Moa in interaction with other Transforms. First, by a simple dodge/block/blind or whatever Moa can be completely nullified, seconds by Moa any Transform can be completely nullified. Yes anyone can be Moa’d, but in the current situation of the game, Moa is reserved by most players for Lich and other transforms. Lich, as has been told by several Mesmers, is often the only reason they even slot Moa.

The Necromancer currently is better of taking less useful elites like Flesh Golem or even just let the elite slot empty. Then he might get Moa’d less, for less Mesmers will slot Moa, if Lich wasn’t commonly used, or the slotted Moa might be even better used on that pesky Shoutbow Warrior^^. With Lich in most situations Necromancers in matches involving Mesmers (an any match I had so far as Powermancer, when the enemy team had a Mesmer, they used Moa) are a liability to their team. My idea was to reduce this liability factor.This was at least my initial thought process, which was actually just a casual thought I had and on which I asked for input… I am actually not that convinced any more myself.

The discussion although developed very unfriendly with the first post already calling out for me to “stop thinking”. It generally didn’t get better. And I honestly was shocked how Lich form is perceived by Mesmers, because I as main Mesmer never perceived Lich that threatening.

Also reminder to everyone “decimate” can refer to lowering by a factor of 10, find a better word.

Okay, philosophy student here. Hoping I wouldn’t have to do this.

1. If Lich hits it does 3.5-6 k damage.
2. If the general health of a player is less than 30k
3. Then Lich will seriously damage or kill players it hits at least 5 times unmitigated.

This is unquestionable deductive logic that requires no testing because it is math.

You seem to think that Pyro is arguing in the face of possible damage mitigation. He is not. He clearly says “being able to.” Perhaps this is just a simple misunderstanding of English. Ability does potential, but not reality. I have the ability to hug every tree I see.

1. If Kentigem has a functioning healthy body.
2. If the tree is publicly and safely accessible, and is physically huggable.
3. Then Kentigem has the ability to hug public and safely accessible trees.

You would not then argue in the the face of this logic that the tree could fall on me preventing the hug. Because then my body is no longer healthy. And when you include scenarios as counterexamples I can easily modify the conclusion and premise.
The only true counterexample is one that makes the conclusion irrevocably false even with modification. And nothing about this argument means that I hug every tree I see.

Remember, can and will are two different things. But we base many actions in society on the potential for cans to turn into wills.

Also fun game. At no point does Pyro use the word everything in the context of “destroying everything.” Your entire argument about needing proof for his comment is based around a comment he did not make.

Just stop replying to this thread. The guy is a troll nothing more. How can you have a rational debate with someone who uses this as argument for moa doesn’t miss often, and I quote :

“I remember 2 times, where Moa failed. One was on a ranger, who just avoided it with a random dodge. The other one was on a necromancer, when a guardian had blinded me.”

Really …your limited play with moa is a good enough argument to counter the experience of the whole mesmer community , eye roll….

Mogar.9216:

Just stop replying to this thread. The guy is a troll nothing more. How can you have a rational debate with someone who uses this as argument for moa doesn’t miss often, and I quote :

“I remember 2 times, where Moa failed. One was on a ranger, who just avoided it with a random dodge. The other one was on a necromancer, when a guardian had blinded me.”

Really …your limited play with moa is a good enough argument to counter the experience of the whole mesmer community , eye roll….

Here I will make this sound nicer.

Inductive reasoning requires the use of empirical data to confirm. This is because it is based in observation and it forms the creation of theories. Deductive does not require empirical data to confirm, it is based on theories. Inductive is wrong until enough empirical data has been gathered to make it theoretically right. Deductive is right until proven wrong. Good example is the theory of gravity. It cannot be proven but we operate under the premise that it is true. Because we are under a premise all valid conclusions we make from gravity are also true.

Where do you fit in TyPin? Well you aren’t trying to gives us reasonable veracity for gravity or evolution. You just want to talk about Lich. Well unfortunately until you provide enough statistical data, your observations are not enough, you would have to poll a statistically significant part of the player base.

Goodness there’s a lot of faulty logic in this paragraph. Let’s see.

TyPin.9860:

The only issue on top of my head I know, where elites can completely be nullified, is Moa and Moa in interaction with other Transforms.

Really?

Mass invis: Nullified with any reveal application, sic em is a good one.
Warrior battle standard: Can be nullified with poison on downed folks.
Ranger entangle: Nullified with condition removal and/or a movement skill.

I could go on, but I’m sure my point is coming through clear. Most elite sin the game have the capability to be completely nullified in a lot of ways.

TyPin.9860:

Yes anyone can be Moa’d, but in the current situation of the game, Moa is reserved by most players for Lich and other transforms. Lich, as has been told by several Mesmers, is often the only reason they even slot Moa.

So what? This is just an explanation of the fact that mesmers use Moa on lich form. You’re not making the connection between ‘being used frequently on’ and ‘is overpowered, please nerf’.

TyPin.9860:

The Necromancer currently is better of taking less useful elites like Flesh Golem or even just let the elite slot empty. Then he might get Moa’d less, for less Mesmers will slot Moa, if Lich wasn’t commonly used, or the slotted Moa might be even better used on that pesky Shoutbow Warrior^^.

No, this makes no sense at all. Why does necromancer slot Lich? Because it’s unbelievably good. Why do mesmers use moa against it? Because it counters an incredibly strong skill. The necromancer not taking lich just makes them less useful, because it means they don’t have the ability to use that incredibly strong skill. Whether or not they get moad has absolutely no bearing on this.

TyPin.9860:

With Lich in most situations Necromancers in matches involving Mesmers (an any match I had so far as Powermancer, when the enemy team had a Mesmer, they used Moa) are a liability to their team. My idea was to reduce this liability factor.

This is really the worst part of all your arguments. You’re trying to make the case that because a necromancer gets moad and dies, they’re a liability to their team, and so moa shouldn’t affect them as much. This…is so absurd I’m not sure where to start. As I said before, it doesn’t matter who or what gets moad, they end up dying as a result of it. You’re literally saying ‘Necromancers are special, and they shouldn’t have to deal with what everyone else has to deal with when they get hit with moa’. This is baseless and makes no sense.

Yes, necromancers will get moad when they use lich. No, them getting moad when they use lich doesn’t make them a liability to the team, it simply means that when someone gets moad, they tend to die. Moa was originally used to break a bunker guardian. Your argument could be applied there too: ‘Bunker guardians will always get moad, so there’s no reason in taking a bunker guardian, as they simply end up as a liability to the team’. See how this starts getting absurd? You could make the case for moa to not work on literally any high priority target with the same (lack of) logic.

TyPin.9860:

And I honestly was shocked how Lich form is perceived by Mesmers, because I as main Mesmer never perceived Lich that threatening.

Perhaps you’ve never been on the receiving end of a lich form then. After you get 2shot by a lich, you’ll probably perceive it as fairly threatening.

@Daniel Handler:
Yeah, I guessed before that you were a philosopher in some sense.

But that sentence of yours is horribly misguided:
“This is unquestionable deductive logic that requires no testing because it is math.”

Math makes absolutely no statement about “real world” whatsoever, doesn’t require real world measuring and only relies on deduction. If we but discuss such things like the actual balance in a game, math might provide a tool for analysis, predictions and such, but alone does not ever provide any proof of that balance.

Also you said:
“Deductive is right until proven wrong.”
That is also not correct. You might wanna recheck what the falsification principle actually means, for you seem to confuse logic (including mathematical proof) with experimental proof (which Fay asked off me). Just having a valid theory, doesn’t mean that this theory doesn’t require poof. A deduction can be logically true (one of the criteria of a valid theory), unless one finds a flaw in that same logic. This doesn’t provide any proof though about any real world issue whatsoever, same as math.

Any theory about gravity has to actually be tested (as in experimental proof). Only if we fail to falsify the theory (aka the deduced hypotheses) then we assume that it (the theory) actually is true (as in experimentally true). It becomes an established theory, which popularly gains the attribut “proven”.

Also, please refrain from taking every word I say literally. I am responding to at least 2 ppl in this thread regularly and will not reread every post word by word to respond with the perfect correct wording (no idea how it is about you, but English is not being my mother tongue). But context is everything and just Fay didn’t use the word “everything”, doesn’t mean he didn’t imply a yet not proven superiority of Lich (as in experimental proof, same as Fay asked me to provide):

Fay.2357:

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

I for once cannot help but think that this is a cheap way to try to shut me down, instead of keeping up a fruitful discussion. Especially you, complaining earlier about some of my rather trollish posts, should know better than to do so.

@Fay:
I will leave it at that. We both made our points. I think you are somewhat disconnecting the conjunctions of my argument (making them seem very ridiculous), but that judgement is up to the reader, if anyone is even interested in the topic. We are running in circles at this point.

I will try to produce the “evidence” you required of me, although no1 has shown me equal evidence of the of the superior strength of Lich.

Btw. I have been indeed on the receiving end of Lich and I never claimed it would be a cake walk to face a Lich. But well… it is as it is…

@Mogar:
Really, just as the thread became more civilized, and I am not denying that some of my posts were troll posts, you come taking stuff out of context. I literally said:

TyPin.9860:

The other issue here is about Moa itself and how it can be countered. Also this is partly brought forward as a reason that Moa should not be nerfed. I agree that I can not that easily refute this, for I have not much personal experience using Moa.

TyPin.9860:

@Daniel Handler:
Yeah, I guessed before that you were a philosopher in some sense.

But that sentence of yours is horribly misguided:
“This is unquestionable deductive logic that requires no testing because it is math.”

Math makes absolutely no statement about “real world” whatsoever, doesn’t require real world measuring and only relies on deduction. If we but discuss such things like the actual balance in a game, math might provide a tool for analysis, predictions and such, but alone does not ever provide any proof of that balance.

Also you said:
“Deductive is right until proven wrong.”
That is also not correct. You might wanna recheck what the falsification principle actually means, for you seem to confuse logic (including mathematical proof) with experimental proof (which Fay asked off me). Just having a valid theory, doesn’t mean that this theory doesn’t require poof. A deduction can be logically true (one of the criteria of a valid theory), unless one finds a flaw in that same logic. This doesn’t provide any proof though about any real world issue whatsoever, same as math.

Any theory about gravity has to actually be tested (as in experimental proof). Only if we fail to falsify the theory (aka the deduced hypotheses) then we assume that it (the theory) actually is true (as in experimentally true). It becomes an established theory, which popularly gains the attribut “proven”.

Also, please refrain from taking every word I say literally. I am responding to at least 2 ppl in this thread regularly and will not reread every post word by word to respond with the perfect correct wording (no idea how it is about you, but English is not being my mother tongue). But context is everything and just Fay didn’t use the word “everything”, doesn’t mean he didn’t imply a yet not proven superiority of Lich (as in experimental proof, same as Fay asked me to provide):

Fay.2357:

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

I for once cannot help but think that this is a cheap way to try to shut me down, instead of keeping up a fruitful discussion. Especially you, complaining earlier about some of my rather trollish posts, should know better than to do so.

@Fay:
I will leave it at that. We both made our points. I think you are somewhat disconnecting the conjunctions of my argument (making them seem very ridiculous), but that judgement is up to the reader, if anyone is even interested in the topic. We are running in circles at this point.

I will try to produce the “evidence” you required of me, although no1 has shown me equal evidence of the of the superior strength of Lich.

Btw. I have been indeed on the receiving end of Lich and I never claimed it would be a cake walk to face a Lich. But well… it is as it is…

@Mogar:
Really, just as the thread became more civilized, and I am not denying that some of my posts were troll posts, you come taking stuff out of context. I literally said:

TyPin.9860:

The other issue here is about Moa itself and how it can be countered. Also this is partly brought forward as a reason that Moa should not be nerfed. I agree that I can not that easily refute this, for I have not much personal experience using Moa.

I think you are confused about what I was trying to prove. That Pyro would be correct in saying Lich has the potential to decimate. Mathematical proofs are often used in experimental proofs. Also I don’t think you know how deductive logic works. For it to be done correctly the premises have to be true. Therefore deductive logic done correctly is based on already proven premises. What theories do you think I am using in my reasoning? You seem to be thinking I am using inductive logic, rather than deductive based on mathematical principles. Mathematical principles like addition which should work in this universe 100% of the time.

“This is unquestionable deductive logic that requires no testing because it is math.”
To prove it wrong or to need testing, you would have to prove wrong the math behind the statements. The premises are based on the mathematical coefficients inherent to the skill. These are unchanging. It is based on the absolute min and max health range for players. Which changes, but not enough to invalidate the premise. It is finally based on the statement, “if it hits”, which is theoretical. As a result these things align to form an irresistible conclusion. That:

Lich can kill a player that it hits unmitigated several times in succession.

You are basing your answer on mitigation. That is why I am asking you for proof.

Moa is a one off skill that once you miss or necro’s teammate blind you in any way, you wasted an elite potential. However you have plenty more chance to autoattack with lich even if several attacks are mitigated. Both elites can easily lead to opponent’s death, but the chance of recovery is vastly different. On basis of that, shouldn’t moa reward more if its failure punish more? I can also argue that moad player can survive by LoS/run away/dodge/evade as well, so I don’t think outlasting elites are really relevant when both elites are considered deadly to an extent.

I know in the go4GW2 weekly for Europe there were mesmers but no power necros. I don’t generally watch NA as it’s been very boring but I do know power necro is more meta there so I’ll give that a watch.

You’re more likely to see comparable skill match ups there and people that are pretty good with their class. Decimating as lich or beating a lich without moa in hot join doesn’t mean the guy is playing it well, especially with the daily system.

@Daniel Handler:
You say: “Mathematical principles like addition which should work in this universe 100% of the time.”
Mathematical principles are what they are: Principles. It is a model, which is used as a tool. Outside of a human mind there are no mathematical principles, not even addition.

You also keep turning things around. I only included the theory part, because you mentioned the theory gravity. And explained how it wouldn’t need a proof, when in fact it does.

Fay wants me to prove my position. Which he worded:

Fay.2357:

Again, I’m sure you’re going to reply with something along the lines of ‘oh, but it doesn’t take 100% team effort to do that, just a single good guardian or mesmer can go toe to toe with a lich no problem.’ Before you say that, prove it. Common knowledge says that a massive cooldown, incredibly powerful elite isn’t going to be countered by just a single glassy person spamming a couple blinds. If you really want to make the claim that you can duel a lich one on one as a guard or mesmer, go do it, record it, and show it to us.

Besides his demeaning wording and wrong assertion of “common knowledge” (Moa, is an incredibly powerful and long CD elite, which can be countered by a single blind) I asked for proof of Fay’s claim. His claim was:

Fay.2357:

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

Ultimately, again, this all adds up to moa being the only actual effective and realistic counter to lich form. Everything else either doesn’t actually work if you apply just a bit of critical thinking to it, or involves losing the fight one way or another.

I translated it into ‘defeats everything 1v1’. Don’t be so kitten literal and selective. You jumped into the discussion with your deductive and inductive logic, which has nothing to do with the experimental proof we both asked for.

You asked for an experimental proof that any number less than 30,000 – 30,000 is less than 0. Pyro is saying that any mitigation to prevent such an occurrence is not conducive to PvP. Tell me what experimental proof you want for that.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

I can also argue that moad player can survive by LoS/run away/dodge/evade as well

I was trolling with Power-necro, and a mesmer Moa’d me before he got down to 50% hp. Then a “lucky” CoD proc with #2 downed him and I AAd him to death while I was still a Moa.. Okay, it was YoloQue with lucky proc, but still, Moa is nowhere a secured kill