Guild Wars 2

When I play on my ranger (RTW/SotF), my counter to Lich Form is popping Signet of Stone and Rapid Firing their face off. The killer isn’t the stability, it’s the damage.

Funfact!

Necromancer has it’s own hilariously, stupidly awesome counter to Lich.

Immobilize -> Well of Corruption.

Pulsing stability? I call that pulsing FEAR.

Tealots.6095:

When I play on my ranger (RTW/SotF), my counter to Lich Form is popping Signet of Stone and Rapid Firing their face off. The killer isn’t the stability, it’s the damage.

They dodge twice then Chilling Blast you. Preventing ~80% of the damage you would be doing to them. And giving them 14 seconds to kill you.

MonkeyButtFace.4862:

Funfact!

Necromancer has it’s own hilariously, stupidly awesome counter to Lich.

Immobilize -> Well of Corruption.

Pulsing stability? I call that pulsing FEAR.

Lichs cannot be immobilized, their five skill removes all conditions the have on themselves. And they can target the area of the skill so that they lose all conditions a second time.

This thread is just horrible. This is how MMO’s die, these little things like moa on a lich that people complain about are really a key part of the spice of the game. Things slowly get dulled into blandness, all the weird annoying things that make the game unique get removed, and all the classes start to get the abilities of others.

Oh no my ability has a counter! Dude if you play mesmer at all just go make a thread asking for thieves attacks to not work on us because that class hard counters our entire class.

Lich form is a big dumb i-win button and when you press it you should have some chance of getting turned into a big dumb bird. All abilities that read “hit this and turn into a big super monster with boring abilities and high dmg!” are stupid and each should have an annoying counter.

And before anyone calls moa and I-win button, getting moa’ed gives you a free super escape. I never die when moa, ever, just turn around and hit the sprint and keep running. Congrats, you have just countered moa. moa is a cc, that’s it and the only people who die to it are clueless.

People spank it over counter play so hard in this game, and yet that one principle seemingly so important is constantly violated, ignored or desired to have another special exemption added to it.

MSFone.3026:

This thread is just horrible. This is how MMO’s die, these little things like moa on a lich that people complain about are really a key part of the spice of the game. Things slowly get dulled into blandness, all the weird annoying things that make the game unique get removed, and all the classes start to get the abilities of others.

Oh no my ability has a counter! Dude if you play mesmer at all just go make a thread asking for thieves attacks to not work on us because that class hard counters our entire class.

Lich form is a big dumb i-win button and when you press it you should have some chance of getting turned into a big dumb bird. All abilities that read “hit this and turn into a big super monster with boring abilities and high dmg!” are stupid and each should have an annoying counter.

And before anyone calls moa and I-win button, getting moa’ed gives you a free super escape. I never die when moa, ever, just turn around and hit the sprint and keep running. Congrats, you have just countered moa. moa is a cc, that’s it and the only people who die to it are clueless.

People spank it over counter play so hard in this game, and yet that one principle seemingly so important is constantly violated, ignored or desired to have another special exemption added to it.

well said

MSFone.3026:

This thread is just horrible. This is how MMO’s die, these little things like moa on a lich that people complain about are really a key part of the spice of the game. Things slowly get dulled into blandness, all the weird annoying things that make the game unique get removed, and all the classes start to get the abilities of others.

Oh no my ability has a counter! Dude if you play mesmer at all just go make a thread asking for thieves attacks to not work on us because that class hard counters our entire class.

Lich form is a big dumb i-win button and when you press it you should have some chance of getting turned into a big dumb bird. All abilities that read “hit this and turn into a big super monster with boring abilities and high dmg!” are stupid and each should have an annoying counter.

And before anyone calls moa and I-win button, getting moa’ed gives you a free super escape. I never die when moa, ever, just turn around and hit the sprint and keep running. Congrats, you have just countered moa. moa is a cc, that’s it and the only people who die to it are clueless.

People spank it over counter play so hard in this game, and yet that one principle seemingly so important is constantly violated, ignored or desired to have another special exemption added to it.

What I read from this beyond the outburst of feelings is that skills should only be balanced against all other skills. If a skill is unnecessarily harsh for one class who cares, that class has skills that are also necessarily harsh. Moa cancels transforms, who cares, it can cancel more then that. Things can get cancelled that’s how this game works.

I’ll add my own part. I do not know of a skill in PvP that Moa can cancel that has a higher cooldown than Moa. You cannot kill enough minions with Moa so that their added CD is greater than Moa. All of these suggestions to help Lich are a nerf on Moa.

Daniel Handler.4816:

MSFone.3026:

This thread is just horrible. This is how MMO’s die, these little things like moa on a lich that people complain about are really a key part of the spice of the game. Things slowly get dulled into blandness, all the weird annoying things that make the game unique get removed, and all the classes start to get the abilities of others.

Oh no my ability has a counter! Dude if you play mesmer at all just go make a thread asking for thieves attacks to not work on us because that class hard counters our entire class.

Lich form is a big dumb i-win button and when you press it you should have some chance of getting turned into a big dumb bird. All abilities that read “hit this and turn into a big super monster with boring abilities and high dmg!” are stupid and each should have an annoying counter.

And before anyone calls moa and I-win button, getting moa’ed gives you a free super escape. I never die when moa, ever, just turn around and hit the sprint and keep running. Congrats, you have just countered moa. moa is a cc, that’s it and the only people who die to it are clueless.

People spank it over counter play so hard in this game, and yet that one principle seemingly so important is constantly violated, ignored or desired to have another special exemption added to it.

What I read from this beyond the outburst of feelings is that skills should only be balanced against all other skills. If a skill is unnecessarily harsh for one class who cares, that class has skills that are also necessarily harsh. Moa cancels transforms, who cares, it can cancel more then that. Things can get cancelled that’s how this game works.

I’ll add my own part. I do not know of a skill in PvP that Moa can cancel that has a higher cooldown than Moa. You cannot kill enough minions with Moa so that their added CD is greater than Moa. All of these suggestions to help Lich are a nerf on Moa.

Yes, on both points.

+1 for pressing a big dumb iWin button to sometimes turn you into a big dumb bird.

Daniel Handler.4816:

MonkeyButtFace.4862:

Funfact!

Necromancer has it’s own hilariously, stupidly awesome counter to Lich.

Immobilize -> Well of Corruption.

Pulsing stability? I call that pulsing FEAR.

Lichs cannot be immobilized, their five skill removes all conditions the have on themselves. And they can target the area of the skill so that they lose all conditions a second time.

Tell that to the poor liches I’ve done it to. The immob is mostly there to keep fear from running them out of the well, not to actually keep them in place.

MonkeyButtFace.4862:

Daniel Handler.4816:

MonkeyButtFace.4862:

Funfact!

Necromancer has it’s own hilariously, stupidly awesome counter to Lich.

Immobilize -> Well of Corruption.

Pulsing stability? I call that pulsing FEAR.

Lichs cannot be immobilized, their five skill removes all conditions the have on themselves. And they can target the area of the skill so that they lose all conditions a second time.

Tell that to the poor liches I’ve done it to. The immob is mostly there to keep fear from running them out of the well, not to actually keep them in place.

And this us because the skill 5 can not be fast while feared… unless I am mistaken (dont play necro a lot)

Daniel Handler.4816:

You asked for an experimental proof that any number less than 30,000 – 30,000 is less than 0. Pyro is saying that any mitigation to prevent such an occurrence is not conducive to PvP. Tell me what experimental proof you want for that.

No, that is not what I am asking for. Are you actually reading my posts?

Fay.2357:

If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

This is what I want to be proven. I want to have proven, that in Lich form, you defeat anyone 1v1 (except the mentioned builds). As he wanted me to prove that with either Guardian or Mesmer I can defeat Lich 1v1. It is actually quite simple.

Actually I did not even ask for that proof. I simply said that no1 has presented me that proof.

EDIT:
Both “proofs” btw are but still at the same level as anecdotal evidence. The anecdote simply exists then in video form. But well, I think he simply doesn’t believe that my experiences are genuine.

It is funny how a simple question for a suggestion can cause so many emotional outbursts. It started with the first reply and it is quite evident throughout the thread.

Also, Moa done right prevents any target from running away. If you can’t kill a Moa’d foe, then either the circumstances were unlucky (such as moaing the target at max distance and having 4 other foes between you and the Moa) or you just don’t do it right.

In my short experience with Moa I usually Moa’d the targets, pulled them with Focus #4 before they could even attempt to run, immob them and just killed that pesky Moa.

TyPin.9860:

pulled them with Focus #4 before they could even attempt to run

Or dodge?

Edit: To elaborate: Because of the 1 sec delay on focus, pulling this off means you are timing it extremely well re. their endurance bar, in which case you should kill them, or you are just ganking people with moa who don’t know what they are doing, in which case you should kill them. The sprint thing on moa is an evade for its duration. All it takes is one dodge and that sprint and you very likely will not die. If you kill someone with moa they 9/10 times they were going to die anyway.

When you Moa someone in teamfights (coordinated), most often than that they get CCed immobed very consistenly, so whoever said that moa is not a safe cast is…

Also you can cast Moa from stealth without any tells, as I’ve said multiple times already and everyone is still ignoring it. Compare that to a giant floating green monstrosity with that giant “Avoid me, or Hit Me” Sign.

It’s funny how you think 20s worth of lich autoattacks can be dodged and blinded but a single moa cast can’t.

Pyro makes the best argument here. Moa turns you into a moa no matter what you are, lich or no lich, and you deal with the consequences the exact same way. Having a very strong elite skill shouldn’t grant you an exception to that. On the contrary it should make you more susceptible to it. I’m afraid I completely don’t see your logic.

SPNKr.6208:

It’s funny how you think 20s worth of lich autoattacks can be dodged and blinded but a single moa cast can’t.

Pyro makes the best argument here. Moa turns you into a moa no matter what you are, lich or no lich, and you deal with the consequences the exact same way. Having a very strong elite skill shouldn’t grant you an exception to that. On the contrary it should make you more susceptible to it. I’m afraid I completely don’t see your logic.

How do you dodge something that you don’t see?

Another fun fact, you can just blink away from lich? Running away does not mean losing the game. While you do that, you can decap or neut other points?

StickerHappy.8052:

SPNKr.6208:

It’s funny how you think 20s worth of lich autoattacks can be dodged and blinded but a single moa cast can’t.

Pyro makes the best argument here. Moa turns you into a moa no matter what you are, lich or no lich, and you deal with the consequences the exact same way. Having a very strong elite skill shouldn’t grant you an exception to that. On the contrary it should make you more susceptible to it. I’m afraid I completely don’t see your logic.

How do you dodge something that you don’t see?

Another fun fact, you can just blink away from lich? Running away does not mean losing the game. While you do that, you can decap or neut other points?

Why does the ability to cast moa from stealth imply it shouldn’t work on lich? Moa is an elite that is supposed to remove someone from a fight for 10 sec. That is the whole point, it is a big cc. If you take it to a team fight that is why. Why should a necro be exempt? If they hit their iWin lich button in a team fight, they instantly became the biggest threat and hence the best use of moa. Why is it ok for classes to be exempt from our skills?

StickerHappy.8052:

How do you dodge something that you don’t see?

Another fun fact, you can just blink away from lich? Running away does not mean losing the game. While you do that, you can decap or neut other points?

Moa on stealth doesn’t apply to lich form only. Are you implying now that moa should be outright nerfed? Apply revealed on cast maybe? You’re also assuming I would blow my most important defensive abilities just to moa the lich, while the rest of the team will just sit there and let me walk around them afterwards.

I can blink, but the moa can also run away. Yes the rest of my team can lock it down but the rest of their team can also lock me down. There is also no guarantee that I will walk into a fight with all my cooldowns ready. In fact, unless I just died I probably won’t, but the moa will always have its skills off CD.

You haven’t addressed the previous point. What makes transformations so special that they get a free pass off moa?

MSFone.3026:

StickerHappy.8052:

SPNKr.6208:

It’s funny how you think 20s worth of lich autoattacks can be dodged and blinded but a single moa cast can’t.

Pyro makes the best argument here. Moa turns you into a moa no matter what you are, lich or no lich, and you deal with the consequences the exact same way. Having a very strong elite skill shouldn’t grant you an exception to that. On the contrary it should make you more susceptible to it. I’m afraid I completely don’t see your logic.

How do you dodge something that you don’t see?

Another fun fact, you can just blink away from lich? Running away does not mean losing the game. While you do that, you can decap or neut other points?

Why does the ability to cast moa from stealth imply it shouldn’t work on lich? Moa is an elite that is supposed to remove someone from a fight for 10 sec. That is the whole point, it is a big cc. If you take it to a team fight that is why. Why should a necro be exempt? If they hit their iWin lich button in a team fight, they instantly became the biggest threat and hence the best use of moa. Why is it ok for classes to be exempt from our skills?

I did mean it to be that way, My point is how players only give 1 side of an argument. I have nothing against lich and nothing against Moa.
My goal is to have eveyrone present 2 sides of the argument, especially those players who only defend moa without EVER playing necro.

Again, I am just here to so see unbiased arguments for once.

SPNKr.6208:

StickerHappy.8052:

How do you dodge something that you don’t see?

Another fun fact, you can just blink away from lich? Running away does not mean losing the game. While you do that, you can decap or neut other points?

Moa on stealth doesn’t apply to lich form only. Are you implying now that moa should be outright nerfed? Apply revealed on cast maybe? You’re also assuming I would blow my most important defensive abilities just to moa the lich, while the rest of the team will just sit there and let me walk around them afterwards.

I can blink, but the moa can also run away. Yes the rest of my team can lock it down but the rest of their team can also lock me down. There is also no guarantee that I will walk into a fight with all my cooldowns ready. In fact, unless I just died I probably won’t, but the moa will always have its skills off CD.

You haven’t addressed the previous point. What makes transformations so special that they get a free pass off moa?

Again this 1 sided opinions, can you CC blink? Yes. You can cc BUT he can just move away from a burst on top of a ledge because it is a port, Moa 5 isn’t. Blink is also a stun breaker, Moa 5 isn’t.

If you read my post above, I told you I have nothing against any elite, I just want to have some real constructive posts that has no bias by presenting two sides of the argument. lol.

To anyone who doesn’t wanna read the first post again:

I have played some PvP with Necromancer lately. And I felt the pain over and over again, when Lich Form got canceled into Moa by Mesmer. I find that counter actually too hard.
So my suggestion is that Moa only cancels a transform. So if you were transformed, like Tornado, Lich Form or the like, Moa will transform you only back into normal form.
If the target isn’t transformed though and Moa hits, it could work as it does today.
What are your thoughts on that?

I have yet to see each side of classes, both pros and cons to start a very good talk.

TyPin.9860:

In my short experience with Moa I usually Moa’d the targets, pulled them with Focus #4 before they could even attempt to run, immob them and just killed that pesky Moa.

You’re talking about blowing nearly all of your control abilities to set that up there. Which is a thing you can do when all of your skills are off cooldown (and you’re hoping a target won’t dodge). The best use of Lich usually isn’t at the very start of a fight, it’s after your enemies have been softened up a bit but you’re running out of powerful cooldowns and really just want to buzzsaw through their hp ASAP while they’re already low on endurance and control abilities. I think someone popping Lich against a team that’s got all their cc and burst skills ready is doing it wrong to begin with.

In my short experience on the receiving end of Moa (I, personally, run Mass Invis 99% of the time), the CC you need to apply to make it a guaranteed kill is really the powerful part of the combo, and Moa is just there to preemptively take away a couple of “oh kitten!” buttons (but the combo sans Moa would kill many players, or force them to use all of their “oh kitten!” buttons anyway).

It’s also been my experience that scrubs who pop Moa and then just spam their skills willy-nilly because they’re expecting a free win get a beak to the face.

ASP.8093:

TyPin.9860:

In my short experience with Moa I usually Moa’d the targets, pulled them with Focus #4 before they could even attempt to run, immob them and just killed that pesky Moa.

You’re talking about blowing nearly all of your control abilities to set that up there. Which is a thing you can do when all of your skills are off cooldown (and you’re hoping a target won’t dodge). The best use of Lich usually isn’t at the very start of a fight, it’s after your enemies have been softened up a bit but you’re running out of powerful cooldowns and really just want to buzzsaw through their hp ASAP while they’re already low on endurance and control abilities. I think someone popping Lich against a team that’s got all their cc and burst skills ready is doing it wrong to begin with.

In my short experience on the receiving end of Moa (I, personally, run Mass Invis 99% of the time), the CC you need to apply to make it a guaranteed kill is really the powerful part of the combo, and Moa is just there to preemptively take away a couple of “oh kitten!” buttons (but the combo sans Moa would kill many players, or force them to use all of their “oh kitten!” buttons anyway).

It’s also been my experience that scrubs who pop Moa and then just spam their skills willy-nilly because they’re expecting a free win get a beak to the face.

Ever tried running Moa in a coordinated team?

StickerHappy.8052:

To anyone who doesn’t wanna read the first post again:

I have played some PvP with Necromancer lately. And I felt the pain over and over again, when Lich Form got canceled into Moa by Mesmer. I find that counter actually too hard.
So my suggestion is that Moa only cancels a transform. So if you were transformed, like Tornado, Lich Form or the like, Moa will transform you only back into normal form.
If the target isn’t transformed though and Moa hits, it could work as it does today.
What are your thoughts on that?

I have yet to see each side of classes, both pros and cons to start a very good talk.

We’ve given our points, but you have the habit of dismissing anything you don’t agree with as biased.

I personally find it ridiculous that you think it’s okay for us to use ALL of our skills, if they were available in the first place, to simply return a severely disadvantaged fight onto even ground. Except it’s not really even because now I’m a sitting duck, while the transformed class still has everything available to him. If that were the case I’d transform instantly in any fight just to bait the moa and all of the mesmer’s skills. The transformation becomes the counter to moa and not the other way round, and would render moa quite useless, don’t you think?

Yes, you feel the pain of being moa’d while in lich form. So does everyone else. The guardian does, the thief does, the warrior does, the mesmer does. I still don’t see what makes you special.

SPNKr.6208:

StickerHappy.8052:

To anyone who doesn’t wanna read the first post again:

I have played some PvP with Necromancer lately. And I felt the pain over and over again, when Lich Form got canceled into Moa by Mesmer. I find that counter actually too hard.
So my suggestion is that Moa only cancels a transform. So if you were transformed, like Tornado, Lich Form or the like, Moa will transform you only back into normal form.
If the target isn’t transformed though and Moa hits, it could work as it does today.
What are your thoughts on that?

I have yet to see each side of classes, both pros and cons to start a very good talk.

We’ve given our points, but you have the habit of dismissing anything you don’t agree with as biased.

I personally find it ridiculous that you think it’s okay for us to use ALL of our skills, if they were available in the first place, to simply return a severely disadvantaged fight onto even ground. Except it’s not really even because now I’m a sitting duck, while the transformed class still has everything available to him. If that were the case I’d transform instantly in any fight just to bait the moa and all of the mesmer’s skills. The transformation becomes the counter to moa and not the other way round, and would render moa quite useless, don’t you think?

Yes, you feel the pain of being moa’d while in lich form. So does everyone else. The guardian does, the thief does, the warrior does, the mesmer does. I still don’t see what makes you special.

Where were your points for the necro when MoAed?? Correct me If I am wrong but all you guys are saying is for th Moa against Lich arguments.

Your last statement again is….lol.. When you Moa a thief, guardian, ranger, or whatever, you are Moaing a “non transformed” state, no elite used. Lich is an elite for 180 seconds.

The point is that a necro when moa’d is exactly the same as anything else when moa’d. There is no difference. Anything that is moa’d, becomes a moa. You are the one suggesting that necros should now be exempt from this.

SPNKr.6208:

The point is that a necro when moa’d is exactly the same as anything else when moa’d. There is no difference. Anything that is moa’d, becomes a moa. You are the one suggesting that necros should now be exempt from this.

Your last statement again is….lol.. When you Moa a thief, guardian, ranger, or whatever, you are Moaing a “non transformed” state, no elite used. Lich is an elite for 180 seconds.

Again nowhere did I say necros should be exempted. Moa Counters lich, does lich counter moa? I mean these arguments are..

So I think its better to provide 2 faces of the story, these 2 elites cannot be compared.

StickerHappy.8052:

Ever tried running Moa in a coordinated team?

I’ve pin-sniped with it in WvW for funzies.

I think the main value of Moa is that it preemptively takes away access to skills like Blink and Contemplation of Purity. Makes it much easier for the team to pound on one target. But I’ve seen plenty of team fights where just spamming a crapton of Immobilize had the exact same effect.

ASP.8093:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ever tried running Moa in a coordinated team?

I’ve pin-sniped with it in WvW for funzies.

I think the main value of Moa is that it preemptively takes away access to skills like Blink and Contemplation of Purity. Makes it much easier for the team to pound on one target. But I’ve seen plenty of team fights where just spamming a crapton of Immobilize had the exact same effect.

I see. This is what most people are missing, on a coordinated team, Moa can basically take out/KO a player. That is the big deal maker there. Coordination is the key, Even If you cast Moa on someone in the BEGINNING of a fight, if a team using it is coordinated, chances are the Moad person will die.

I’m sorry, I still don’t see why it matters that the target is transformed. Is it because you think the elite skill is negated? The same applies to everyone else. Any class can use whatever elite skill he wants; in the end if I moa him he’s still a moa. What stops elite skills from being negated anyway? If I put down by 180s time warp the enemy can just run out of the area and it’s useless, since according to you it’s likewise okay to run away from a lich. Should time warp apply immobilise then? A thief guild’s summons can be killed immediately if my team drops some AoEs, should they be invulnerable then?

As I said before, if what you suggest becomes a thing, transformations will counter moa. Unless you think it’s a good idea to let the lich attack my teammates for 20s then moa him afterwards.

I also don’t understand why you bring up lich countering moa now. It doesn’t. Isn’t that the point? It’s good at doing other things.

SPNKr.6208:

I’m sorry, I still don’t see why it matters that the target is transformed. Is it because you think the elite skill is negated? The same applies to everyone else. Any class can use whatever elite skill he wants; in the end if I moa him he’s still a moa. What stops elite skills from being negated anyway? If I put down by 180s time warp the enemy can just run out of the area and it’s useless, since according to you it’s likewise okay to run away from a lich. Should time warp apply immobilise then? A thief guild’s summons can be killed immediately if my team drops some AoEs, should they be invulnerable then?

As I said before, if what you suggest becomes a thing, transformations will counter moa. Unless you think it’s a good idea to let the lich attack my teammates for 20s then moa him afterwards.

I also don’t understand why you bring up lich countering moa now. It doesn’t. Isn’t that the point? It’s good at doing other things.

Think of it this way, 1v1 on a node, You are playing a necro and the mesmer has Moa, What is the reason for popping lich in that fight where the mesmer can just cancel it? So what is the point in using lich? Nothing right?

it makes you kinda think would you still slot it..

StickerHappy.8052:

Think of it this way, 1v1 on a node, You are playing a necro and the mesmer has Moa, What is the reason for popping lich in that fight where the mesmer can just cancel it? So what is the point in using lich? Nothing right?

it makes you kinda think would you still slot it..

You can’t distill things down to simple situations like that. If that’s the case then don’t fight the mesmer on point if you can’t beat him without lich.

Think of it this way, 1v1 on a node, with you as a mesmer and your opponent as a thief. All things equal, you’re probably going to lose to him. Why play mesmer at all then? See things aren’t always that simple. In your scenario I can see why you’d think it would be balanced, but if you take it out of that scenario the mesmer becomes disadvantaged, and the necro faces absolutely no risk at all popping his lich whenever he wants. This extends to any transformation, which are frequently, by design, incredibly strong.

The thing is, you and TyPin are trying to raise the point that the moa-lich counter is something that is especially bad. This is what the rest of us simply don’t agree with. There have been numerous examples given of elite skills with huge CDs being negated by far less meaningful skills, such as a 240s CD banner made useless by a simple poison. The only circumstance under which I’d agree with you is if the necro is totally reliant on lich form, and is completely helpless if he doesn’t use it. But this is not the case, and even if it were, that is a problem with the class, not the moa-lich counter.

SPNKr.6208:

StickerHappy.8052:

Think of it this way, 1v1 on a node, You are playing a necro and the mesmer has Moa, What is the reason for popping lich in that fight where the mesmer can just cancel it? So what is the point in using lich? Nothing right?

it makes you kinda think would you still slot it..

You can’t distill things down to simple situations like that. If that’s the case then don’t fight the mesmer on point if you can’t beat him without lich.

Think of it this way, 1v1 on a node, with you as a mesmer and your opponent as a thief. All things equal, you’re probably going to lose to him. Why play mesmer at all then? See things aren’t always that simple. In your scenario I can see why you’d think it would be balanced, but if you take it out of that scenario the mesmer becomes disadvantaged, and the necro faces absolutely no risk at all popping his lich whenever he wants. This extends to any transformation, which are frequently, by design, incredibly strong.

The thing is, you and TyPin are trying to raise the point that the moa-lich counter is something that is especially bad. This is what the rest of us simply don’t agree with. There have been numerous examples given of elite skills with huge CDs being negated by far less meaningful skills, such as a 240s CD banner made useless by a simple poison. The only circumstance under which I’d agree with you is if the necro is totally reliant on lich form, and is completely helpless if he doesn’t use it. But this is not the case, and even if it were, that is a problem with the class, not the moa-lich counter.

For the thief argument? Me lose? If I was not using full zerk, would I lose? Moa vs Lich is always the same scenario, yeah I get your point but those 1v1 scenarios will happen whether you like or not.

I think the best way to buff lich is for it to have a Defiance bar so you can’t Moa it, but you can reduce the stacks and then Moa It. As it stands now, You could Moa the necro as early as you want to right? Moa isn’t nerfed at any point in my argument It just gives more counterplay for transformations for it since you are running a completely different set of weapon skills and cds too boot. This is what I mean to present both sides of the argument dude,

I know you’re very proud of your skills as a mesmer but don’t change the conditions of a fight. I did say all things equal, including skill. If you’re going to bring all sorts of other builds into the picture we can do the same for the necro. But you get my point so I won’t harp on that.

You haven’t addressed my second paragraph, which is a point I’ve been making since I started posting today. There is nothing special about the moa-lich counter. Other high CD elite skills can be completely negated, so can lich. So can moa, by a dodge, especially in 1v1 since I know when he’s in stealth and when he’s casting. It’s not easy, yes, in the same way that it’s not easy for anyone else to fight a lich head on.

I no longer have the time to debate with you. I see where you’re coming from, but I still disagree and I hope you can see the single point that Pyro brought up and which I’ve been trying drive across to you all this time.

StickerHappy.8052:

ASP.8093:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ever tried running Moa in a coordinated team?

I’ve pin-sniped with it in WvW for funzies.

I think the main value of Moa is that it preemptively takes away access to skills like Blink and Contemplation of Purity. Makes it much easier for the team to pound on one target. But I’ve seen plenty of team fights where just spamming a crapton of Immobilize had the exact same effect.

I see. This is what most people are missing, on a coordinated team, Moa can basically take out/KO a player. That is the big deal maker there. Coordination is the key, Even If you cast Moa on someone in the BEGINNING of a fight, if a team using it is coordinated, chances are the Moad person will die.

“Missing” only in the sense that this has nothing to do with how Moa should interact with Lich form.

I mean, one of the things I’ve been saying is that going Lich at the start of a fight is typically a bad idea…

SPNKr.6208:

I know you’re very proud of your skills as a mesmer but don’t change the conditions of a fight. I did say all things equal, including skill. If you’re going to bring all sorts of other builds into the picture we can do the same for the necro. But you get my point so I won’t harp on that.

You haven’t addressed my second paragraph, which is a point I’ve been making since I started posting today. There is nothing special about the moa-lich counter. Other high CD elite skills can be completely negated, so can lich. So can moa, by a dodge, especially in 1v1 since I know when he’s in stealth and when he’s casting. It’s not easy, yes, in the same way that it’s not easy for anyone else to fight a lich head on.

I no longer have the time to debate with you. I see where you’re coming from, but I still disagree and I hope you can see the single point that Pyro brought up and which I’ve been trying drive across to you all this time.

Dude, Thief only hard counters zerk mesmer, so how does that apply to your argument? This has nothing to do with skill, this is a very well known fact that condi builds can have a higher win rate with thieves compared to the zerk counterpart. Moa is Moa WHATEVER the build is, what the conditions are, whatever the classes are. whatever the skill level is.

You still don’t get the point, Moa makes Transformation elites useless. So isn’t that special? That is the only skill in the game that bypasses elite transforms, Stab isn’t gonna prevent Moa. Also, yes banners can be rupted, but it just goes on a 5 sec cd, transforms get 180 cds when moaed. So I think you guys are the ones missing the point. MI is the same 5 seconds when rupted, TW too, so how is that a fair comparison when these skills can be rupted yes so can moa, but it does not literally cancel the elite out like you just casted it.

That stealth example you gave is biased, there is no way you will now what that person is doing when you can’t see him.

ASP.8093:

StickerHappy.8052:

ASP.8093:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ever tried running Moa in a coordinated team?

I’ve pin-sniped with it in WvW for funzies.

I think the main value of Moa is that it preemptively takes away access to skills like Blink and Contemplation of Purity. Makes it much easier for the team to pound on one target. But I’ve seen plenty of team fights where just spamming a crapton of Immobilize had the exact same effect.

I see. This is what most people are missing, on a coordinated team, Moa can basically take out/KO a player. That is the big deal maker there. Coordination is the key, Even If you cast Moa on someone in the BEGINNING of a fight, if a team using it is coordinated, chances are the Moad person will die.

“Missing” only in the sense that this has nothing to do with how Moa should interact with Lich form.

I mean, one of the things I’ve been saying is that going Lich at the start of a fight is typically a bad idea…

Yes point taken, but you can also be Moaed when the you still haven’t popped lich and die and never get a chance to use it.

StickerHappy.8052:

Yes point taken, but you can also be Moaed when the you still haven’t popped lich and die and never get a chance to use it.

Sure, but the timer to respawn is much lower than the cooldown on Moa.

StickerHappy.8052:

You still don’t get the point, Moa makes Transformation elites useless.

This one line is the very crux of your entire argument. Unfortunately, it has no basis in either logic or reality, and is completely false. I’ve actually already addressed this in a previous post in this thread, but I’ll do it again here.

Your logic is as follows: Because a hardcounter exists to a given skill, that skill is useless.

This might not be what you intended to say, but it is in fact the basis of your argument. Moa is a hardcounter to lich, and because of the existence of moa, you have decided that lich useless.

Now that we’ve boiled your argument down to a single general statement, let’s start applying other situations to it, just to see if it even flirts with reality.

Example 1: Basilisk Venom
Basilisk venom is a stun. There are 2 hardcounters to stuns: stability and stun breaks. Almost every single pvp build in the game runs one or both of those. Does this fact make basi venom useless?
No.

Example 2: Any projectile attack
All reflectable projectile attacks are hard countered by reflects. Does the existence and possibility of reflects mean that projectile attacks are useless?
No.

Example 3: Warbanner
Warbanner is intended to revive people that are downed. However, poison affects the amount of health that it provides, causing it to fail to revive them unless they’re already very close to reviving anyway. This makes poison a hardcounter to the intended purpose of Warbanner. Does this make Warbanner useless?
No.

I could go on like this for almost every skill and skill type in the game. Phantasms and blinds, conditions and condition immunities, boons and boon strips or corruptions, any cc heavy skills and stability, but I think the point I’m getting at should become obvious.

The existence of a hardcounter does not cause the countered skill to become useless unless it completely and totally removed the ability to make use of the countered skill.

Is this the case with lich? No, obviously not. Lich is on a lower cooldown than moa, immediately meaning that you can use it when moa is on cooldown. Additionally, you can use it when the Mesmer is either not present in the fight, or not in a position to cast moa. Your team, knowing that lich will single-handedly win a teamfight for them, will manouver themselves to protect the lich, allowing for safe free casting (contrary to the arguments that you and typin have been making that seem to assume the lich’s team all go afk for those 20 seconds).

There are a multitude of ways in which lich can be successfully used even against a team with a moa Mesmer. The very existence of that hardcounter only provides the optional possibility of lich being countered, one that is conspicuously absent without moa. It does not, in any way, guarantee the countering of lich.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

You still don’t get the point, Moa makes Transformation elites useless.

This one line is the very crux of your entire argument. Unfortunately, it has no basis in either logic or reality, and is completely false. I’ve actually already addressed this in a previous post in this thread, but I’ll do it again here.

Your logic is as follows: Because a hardcounter exists to a given skill, that skill is useless.

This might not be what you intended to say, but it is in fact the basis of your argument. Moa is a hardcounter to lich, and because of the existence of moa, you have decided that lich useless.

Now that we’ve boiled your argument down to a single general statement, let’s start applying other situations to it, just to see if it even flirts with reality.

Example 1: Basilisk Venom
Basilisk venom is a stun. There are 2 hardcounters to stuns: stability and stun breaks. Almost every single pvp build in the game runs one or both of those. Does this fact make basi venom useless?
No.

Example 2: Any projectile attack
All reflectable projectile attacks are hard countered by reflects. Does the existence and possibility of reflects mean that projectile attacks are useless?
No.

Example 3: Warbanner
Warbanner is intended to revive people that are downed. However, poison affects the amount of health that it provides, causing it to fail to revive them unless they’re already very close to reviving anyway. This makes poison a hardcounter to the intended purpose of Warbanner. Does this make Warbanner useless?
No.

I could go on like this for almost every skill and skill type in the game. Phantasms and blinds, conditions and condition immunities, boons and boon strips or corruptions, any cc heavy skills and stability, but I think the point I’m getting at should become obvious.

The existence of a hardcounter does not cause the countered skill to become useless unless it completely and totally removed the ability to make use of the countered skill.

Is this the case with lich? No, obviously not. Lich is on a lower cooldown than moa, immediately meaning that you can use it when moa is on cooldown. Additionally, you can use it when the Mesmer is either not present in the fight, or not in a position to cast moa. Your team, knowing that lich will single-handedly win a teamfight for them, will manouver themselves to protect the lich, allowing for safe free casting (contrary to the arguments that you and typin have been making that seem to assume the lich’s team all go afk for those 20 seconds).

There are a multitude of ways in which lich can be successfully used even against a team with a moa Mesmer. The very existence of that hardcounter only provides the optional possibility of lich being countered, one that is conspicuously absent without moa. It does not, in any way, guarantee the countering of lich.

This is also mostly correct except for the comment on cooldowns.

StickerHappy.8052:

SPNKr.6208:

I’m sorry, I still don’t see why it matters that the target is transformed. Is it because you think the elite skill is negated? The same applies to everyone else. Any class can use whatever elite skill he wants; in the end if I moa him he’s still a moa. What stops elite skills from being negated anyway? If I put down by 180s time warp the enemy can just run out of the area and it’s useless, since according to you it’s likewise okay to run away from a lich. Should time warp apply immobilise then? A thief guild’s summons can be killed immediately if my team drops some AoEs, should they be invulnerable then?

As I said before, if what you suggest becomes a thing, transformations will counter moa. Unless you think it’s a good idea to let the lich attack my teammates for 20s then moa him afterwards.

I also don’t understand why you bring up lich countering moa now. It doesn’t. Isn’t that the point? It’s good at doing other things.

Think of it this way, 1v1 on a node, You are playing a necro and the mesmer has Moa, What is the reason for popping lich in that fight where the mesmer can just cancel it? So what is the point in using lich? Nothing right?

it makes you kinda think would you still slot it..

This right here is the whole point: Yes, if a necro is stupid enough to pop his elite right in front of the friggin mesmer then yes, he should get turned into a big stupid bird. If I were a necro and I had my super iWin button and wanted to press it, I might pause first to see if it was a good time, like, for example was there a mesmer nearby. It’s called being aware and timing your abilities. I see necros do this stupidity all the time, they see a team fight and run in as a lich. It’s so clear what is going on: They see a team fight, lich is off cd, queue up metallica and hit the button. They don’t check what’s going on, the metal music is too loud and they just want to mash that attack skill.

This is life for a mesmer: Where is the thief? You need to be aware of where the other class is that can counter you. At least for necros its just one skill.

Here are some not-so-pro tips: Maybe check if there is a mesmer present before hitting Lich. If there is one, maybe watch the mesmer and wait until he is under pressure and unlikely to be able to worry about moaing you. Or, since you are so huge on “coordinated” teams, call out that you want to Lich and ask someone to pressure the mes.

It’s really simple, classes have counters, skills have counter play. It is part of your job as a player to time your abilities for maximum effect.

Put another way: Moa doesn’t make Lich useless, it makes stupid and unplanned use of Lich useless.

Seriously, you are just trolling and it’s annoying. opinion =/= bias. People are presenting arguments that support their view, it’s pretty standard for a discussion where there are two sides.

I suggest those people here arguing about Mao check out the latest Go4GW2 stream on twitch. The EU matches feature some great moa uses. Not a lich in sight but it shows why people use moa. To take someone’s skills out of the fight. Be it a Rez banner, burst capability, support, whatever. The moa-lich interaction is no different when you look at it like this.

It’s also worth pointing out that if the mesmer feels they have to save moa for lich, then your other fights and team members can feel pretty safe and use their skills with impunity. If they get moa’d you can trump the enemy team by liching up. It works both ways.

A reminder to everyone who does not play Necro. Moa is part of a widestream of things that show the developers do not care about Necro, and probably never have. The reasoning behind this being a problem is that necro does not have enough hard counters to other classes.

So moving the discussion forward. Lets buff the Necro. I think the intent of OP was to suggest reducing one of the counters on Necro. When in reality they should just buff Necro counters on other classes.

Simple balancing concept really. Since mesmers save moa for lich just don’t use lich and the mesmer doesn’t use moa (the majority of the time and one 180s elite for 1 180s elite is automatically fair) , and if they do then you have a guaranteed lich form( and then they can attempt to counter this via blinds / reflects) and a chance to counter the moa…( yes you can counter moa through evades invulns blinds stealthing the moa, etc…) , therefore because the cds are equal the skills are completely balanced.

MSFone.3026:

TyPin.9860:

pulled them with Focus #4 before they could even attempt to run

Or dodge?

Edit: To elaborate: Because of the 1 sec delay on focus, pulling this off means you are timing it extremely well re. their endurance bar, in which case you should kill them, or you are just ganking people with moa who don’t know what they are doing, in which case you should kill them. The sprint thing on moa is an evade for its duration. All it takes is one dodge and that sprint and you very likely will not die. If you kill someone with moa they 9/10 times they were going to die anyway.

Then all Necromancers I met so far seemed not aware of that. Because they all fell for that… However, I don’t use Moa that often… so maybe it was just a lucky streak.

@Fay:
You (if I remember right) introduced the concept of damage control to me and claimed my examples weren’t counters. However, only Daniel explained the difference, you didn’t (unless I read it over). So I am going with Daniels explanation.

Daniel Handler.4816:

With a counter:

• no part of the desired effect of the skill occurs
• ex. with feedback from the instance the skill is cast I own the projectile and all its effects and the caster does not benefit in any way.

With damage control

• parts of the skill occur but damage is prevented
• ex. with black powder/whatever I perma blind a Mesmer as they are shattering. I am not harmed but the mesmer still gets the benefits of having shattered.

Is this a definition you would agree to? Because if so, the warbanner example would not be a counter (depending on what all includes “the desired effect”).

Also both Moa and Lich have the same cool down.

Personally I think, before we continue, we should be on the same level on what ‘damage control’, ‘counter’ and ‘hard counter’ actually means.

TyPin.9860:

@Fay:
You (if I remember right) introduced the concept of damage control to me and claimed my examples weren’t counters. However, only Daniel explained the difference, you didn’t (unless I read it over). So I am going with Daniels explanation.

Daniel Handler.4816:

With a counter:

• no part of the desired effect of the skill occurs
• ex. with feedback from the instance the skill is cast I own the projectile and all its effects and the caster does not benefit in any way.

With damage control

• parts of the skill occur but damage is prevented
• ex. with black powder/whatever I perma blind a Mesmer as they are shattering. I am not harmed but the mesmer still gets the benefits of having shattered.

Is this a definition you would agree to? Because if so, the warbanner example would not be a counter (depending on what all includes “the desired effect”).

Also both Moa and Lich have the same cool down.

Personally I think, before we continue, we should be on the same level on what ‘damage control’, ‘counter’ and ‘hard counter’ actually means.

Actually, I meant damage control in the colloquial sense; ‘to do damage control’. The situation is already in the kittenter, you’re not gonna be able to really salvage it, but you can do a bit of damage control.

I just didn’t have the heart to correct kent on that one.

TyPin.9860:

MSFone.3026:

TyPin.9860:

pulled them with Focus #4 before they could even attempt to run

Or dodge?

Edit: To elaborate: Because of the 1 sec delay on focus, pulling this off means you are timing it extremely well re. their endurance bar, in which case you should kill them, or you are just ganking people with moa who don’t know what they are doing, in which case you should kill them. The sprint thing on moa is an evade for its duration. All it takes is one dodge and that sprint and you very likely will not die. If you kill someone with moa they 9/10 times they were going to die anyway.

Then all Necromancers I met so far seemed not aware of that. Because they all fell for that… However, I don’t use Moa that often… so maybe it was just a lucky streak.

Read my post above: It’s because most Necros who use lich expect and want to be able to use it without any planning or timing as an iWin button. They hit Lich and expect to rule non-stop for a 20 sec heavy metal attack-skill mashing session. You moa them and because they hit their “I don’t need to pay attention to anything because I am god mode” button they don’t react properly. Just a small dose of awareness and strategic planning in the use of Lich makes the whole moa thing like any other strategic choice in the game.

That’s why these stupid transform abilities are horrible for the game anyways. Hit this button and go god mode for 20 sec, it’s terrible for skillful strategic play. For anyone familiar with WoW, this is like the hunters “the beast within,” commonly known as “beast of iwin”, where the hunter gets a huge dmg increase and goes immune to all cc. Such skills are almost universally derided as skill-less crap abilities, and thank goodness Anet, via luck or planning, at least has some counter ability.

Read my post above: It’s because most Necros who use lich expect and want to be able to use it without any planning or timing as an iWin button. They hit Lich and expect to rule non-stop for a 20 sec heavy metal attack-skill mashing session. You moa them and because they hit their “I don’t need to pay attention to anything because I am god mode” button they don’t react properly. Just a small dose of awareness and strategic planning in the use of Lich makes the whole moa thing like any other strategic choice in the game.

Where do you even get these arguments? :o