(edited by Nieguen.6235)
why do people hate mesmers?
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.
So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
I am sorry but I really think, guys you did not understand what I said. We needed a buff, but we did not need to be OP as a “Hey ya I am new to pvp let’s push buttons, I kill everybody”. And currently WE are OP because there is too much amazing “traits” for high damage/high survivability/CC.
no identity in pvp: come on… we were there for +1 fights and portal. And it was viable, maybe TCG?
We needed a buff, but we did not need to be OP as a “Hey ya I am new to pvp let’s push buttons, I kill everybody”.
Sometimes I PvP on my engie. It’s kind of a joke, really. I’m a total scrub at engie, and I play stuff like Juggernaut builds. I really do just push buttons and hope for the best.
I can kill bad mesmers pretty reliably.
Now, I “main” mesmer, I know all their tricks, &c., &c., but really what it boils down to is that bad mesmers can’t burst for crap and 90% of their survival skills are utterly irrelevant because they don’t use them right at all. And, no, it’s not the permastab: I’ve fought plenty of necros, thieves, and warriors with half a brain who could rip right through it. It’s that bad mesmers can’t capitalize on an opening, even one they made easily with CI, to save their lives. It’s like fighting a really, really bad thief.
There’s some stuff I really want to see balanced down a bit (CI, BD, PU) but all these declarations that you can literally faceroll your way through anything on a mesmer now are pretty dang comical.
And the whole “Mesmer used to take skill!” song and dance is just sad. Sad.
Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
That has nothing to do with ‘having meaning’ or not. It has to do with how much risk you need to invest to possibly get the result you want.
Ex. I want to cast meteor shower in the middle of a fight with a war. It is a big powerful spell that can win a fight if:
-If I accept to stay immobile for nearly 4 sec. if I want the full effect, possibly investing in long cd (armor or earth, magnetic aura etc.) to do it more safely or gambling it won’t be interrupted and I will survive that decision.
- If my positioning and placement is good enough and my opponent can’t get out of the aoe with no damage.
-the rgn of the ms is on my side.
Is the risk of playing that card at that moment while blowing these cd worth it? Or did I blew 2 cd and lost 50% + of my life for nothing?
what is the mesmer’s risk if he can reset any fight unless you one shot him? How difficult is it to land your burst if you can prepare it from stealth and it has a relatively low cd on it? How hard is it to interrupt something important when interrupts are so readily available? How dumb and reckless do you have to be to pay for your mistakes?
4k hours on my main
Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
(edited by tobascodagama.2961)
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
I am sorry but I really think, guys you did not understand what I said. We needed a buff, but we did not need to be OP as a “Hey ya I am new to pvp let’s push buttons, I kill everybody”. And currently WE are OP because there is too much amazing “traits” for high damage/high survivability/CC.
no identity in pvp: come on… we were there for +1 fights and portal. And it was viable, maybe TCG?
The portal play although good wasn’t enough, if you wanted +1 then thief was it plus thief was a direct counter to Mesmer.
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
That has nothing to do with ‘having meaning’ or not. It has to do with how much risk you need to invest to possibly get the result you want.
Ex. I want to cast meteor shower in the middle of a fight with a war. It is a big powerful spell that can win a fight if:
-If I accept to stay immobile for nearly 4 sec. if I want the full effect, possibly investing in long cd (armor or earth, magnetic aura etc.) to do it more safely or gambling it won’t be interrupted and I will survive that decision.
- If my positioning and placement is good enough and my opponent can’t get out of the aoe with no damage.
-the rgn of the ms is on my side.
Is the risk of playing that card at that moment while blowing these cd worth it? Or did I blew 2 cd and lost 50% + of my life for nothing?
what is the mesmer’s risk if he can reset any fight unless you one shot him? How difficult is it to land your burst if you can prepare it from stealth and it has a relatively low cd on it? How hard is it to interrupt something important when interrupts are so readily available? How dumb and reckless do you have to be to pay for your mistakes?
Landing burst from stealth is more difficult than a thief, was the same pre patch. Only thing is damage is a little off (high)for all classes. This has been discussed at length already and can be learned by playing. Each class has its own risk rewards. That ele your discussing has the same insane burst as a Mesmer, now phenomenal disengage potential and is invaluable in a Zerg.
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
That has nothing to do with ‘having meaning’ or not. It has to do with how much risk you need to invest to possibly get the result you want.
Ex. I want to cast meteor shower in the middle of a fight with a war. It is a big powerful spell that can win a fight if:
-If I accept to stay immobile for nearly 4 sec. if I want the full effect, possibly investing in long cd (armor or earth, magnetic aura etc.) to do it more safely or gambling it won’t be interrupted and I will survive that decision.
- If my positioning and placement is good enough and my opponent can’t get out of the aoe with no damage.
-the rgn of the ms is on my side.
Is the risk of playing that card at that moment while blowing these cd worth it? Or did I blew 2 cd and lost 50% + of my life for nothing?
what is the mesmer’s risk if he can reset any fight unless you one shot him? How difficult is it to land your burst if you can prepare it from stealth and it has a relatively low cd on it? How hard is it to interrupt something important when interrupts are so readily available? How dumb and reckless do you have to be to pay for your mistakes?
Landing burst from stealth is more difficult than a thief, was the same pre patch. Only thing is damage is a little off (high)for all classes. This has been discussed at length already and can be learned by playing. Each class has its own risk rewards. That ele your discussing has the same insane burst as a Mesmer, now phenomenal disengage potential and is invaluable in a Zerg.
It’s more than a L2P issue here I’m afraid. Beside, I still don’t see the relevance of saying eles are invaluable to zergs. I mean, yes they are but what does it have to do with risk vs reward?
The damage of the ele is also insanely high, like all now, that is true but, again, it comes with inherent risks that I really don’t see on the mesmers we have now. Like at all.
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
That has nothing to do with ‘having meaning’ or not. It has to do with how much risk you need to invest to possibly get the result you want.
Ex. I want to cast meteor shower in the middle of a fight with a war. It is a big powerful spell that can win a fight if:
-If I accept to stay immobile for nearly 4 sec. if I want the full effect, possibly investing in long cd (armor or earth, magnetic aura etc.) to do it more safely or gambling it won’t be interrupted and I will survive that decision.
- If my positioning and placement is good enough and my opponent can’t get out of the aoe with no damage.
-the rgn of the ms is on my side.
Is the risk of playing that card at that moment while blowing these cd worth it? Or did I blew 2 cd and lost 50% + of my life for nothing?
what is the mesmer’s risk if he can reset any fight unless you one shot him? How difficult is it to land your burst if you can prepare it from stealth and it has a relatively low cd on it? How hard is it to interrupt something important when interrupts are so readily available? How dumb and reckless do you have to be to pay for your mistakes?
Landing burst from stealth is more difficult than a thief, was the same pre patch. Only thing is damage is a little off (high)for all classes. This has been discussed at length already and can be learned by playing. Each class has its own risk rewards. That ele your discussing has the same insane burst as a Mesmer, now phenomenal disengage potential and is invaluable in a Zerg.
It’s more than a L2P issue here I’m afraid. Beside, I still don’t see the relevance of saying eles are invaluable to zergs. I mean, yes they are but what does it have to do with risk vs reward?
The damage of the ele is also insanely high, like all now, that is true but, again, it comes with inherent risks that I really don’t see on the mesmers we have now. Like at all.
Glad you said it. It is a l2p issue as well with the Mesmer.
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
That has nothing to do with ‘having meaning’ or not. It has to do with how much risk you need to invest to possibly get the result you want.
Ex. I want to cast meteor shower in the middle of a fight with a war. It is a big powerful spell that can win a fight if:
-If I accept to stay immobile for nearly 4 sec. if I want the full effect, possibly investing in long cd (armor or earth, magnetic aura etc.) to do it more safely or gambling it won’t be interrupted and I will survive that decision.
- If my positioning and placement is good enough and my opponent can’t get out of the aoe with no damage.
-the rgn of the ms is on my side.
Is the risk of playing that card at that moment while blowing these cd worth it? Or did I blew 2 cd and lost 50% + of my life for nothing?
what is the mesmer’s risk if he can reset any fight unless you one shot him? How difficult is it to land your burst if you can prepare it from stealth and it has a relatively low cd on it? How hard is it to interrupt something important when interrupts are so readily available? How dumb and reckless do you have to be to pay for your mistakes?
Landing burst from stealth is more difficult than a thief, was the same pre patch. Only thing is damage is a little off (high)for all classes. This has been discussed at length already and can be learned by playing. Each class has its own risk rewards. That ele your discussing has the same insane burst as a Mesmer, now phenomenal disengage potential and is invaluable in a Zerg.
It’s more than a L2P issue here I’m afraid. Beside, I still don’t see the relevance of saying eles are invaluable to zergs. I mean, yes they are but what does it have to do with risk vs reward?
The damage of the ele is also insanely high, like all now, that is true but, again, it comes with inherent risks that I really don’t see on the mesmers we have now. Like at all.
And your right there is no risk running an ele right now. Insane burst supreme sustain through heals and condition clearing and when it gets ugly zoom off to the races.
Also, engi stealth is only something they can use to escape or initiate, they don’t have enough access to it to use it regularly in combat. And ranger can only have stealth in longbow. All other ranger builds have no access to it.
Without a doubt the most annoying imo in wvw is a condition ranger using longbow plus trapper runes. Insane stealth speed impressive conditions cc with pets and good sustain.
LMO, traps got a huge nerf.
The CD got increased immensely.
Traps like freeze trap got added a minor damage that’d get you revealed once triggered.
When ranger pick-up traps, they basically give-up all the possible cleanse.
Healing Spring got trashed and become useless.
Bleed got nerfed when at lower condition damage.
Sorry, I haven’t seen any decent condition ranger post patch. It’s all Mesmer roaming around no end.
Why do people hate Mesmer? Because having your entire zerg blindly spam attack #1 for 10 minutes while running around a keep you just capped to desperately find a perma-stealthed Mesmer does not make the game very fun to play.
Thieves used to be enemy #1, but they can’t port; its funny I don’t see too many thieves in WVW any more, its all mesmers.
Mesmers are not overpowered. Not everyone can make a mesmer, tome of knowledge it up to level 80, slap on some exotics and 1v3 with it. Those who can not only know mesmer, but know every other class via PvP.
I started off and remained the same all the way until 2014, because all I did was WvW roam with my full zerk mesmer yolo style. Then they introduced new changes to PvP and I went to give it a shot, and played straight PvP for 8 months straight, after that, I knew every class and every major spell, and all its counters, from the salty community and my experiences there.
Anyway, no its not op. I’m only an average engi, but I can still 1v1 zerk shatter mesmers.
Always have a dodge roll reserved for their mirror blade, when they do a greatsword throw animation, you must dodge it otherwise you’re gonna take 6k from the weapon alone, not including vul stacks, clone summoning, and might to the mesmer.
As far as thief goes, if the mesmer is PU zerk, just out stealth them. Wait for them to reveal themselves first then spike them, and repeat that process. Mesmers have a high stealth uptime, but its limitted. An SA thief can perma-stealth.
Arcane Bastion [AB]
Elementalist Mesmer Ranger
Sea of Sorrows
Elementalist Mesmer Ranger
Sea of Sorrows
We got overbuffed people. Not hating. Just Keeping it real.
Champion Illusionist Champion Hunter Champion Phantom Champion Magus
We got overbuffed people. Not hating. Just Keeping it real.
Stop copying pasting the same kitten into every of your post. Then we probably will have less random noob complaints like this
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/So-um-memsers-seem-brokenly-OP/first#post5270214
We got overbuffed people. Not hating. Just Keeping it real.
The only traits that need re-balancing are CS and PU. This is in addition to a game-wide scaling of power.
We are hardly the only class that got “overbuffed”. Outside of bugs, the only classes not needing much of a reworking are Warrior, Ranger and Necro.
https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
We got overbuffed people. Not hating. Just Keeping it real.
The only traits that need re-balancing are CS and PU. This is in addition to a game-wide scaling of power.
We are hardly the only class that got “overbuffed”. Outside of bugs, the only classes not needing much of a reworking are Warrior, Ranger and Necro.
Ranger not needing a rework? Are you serious?
Anyway, we are overbuffed dude. One example, What was the uniqueness of Shatter builds before? IP.
Guess what any build can now have an on demand shatter.
IE which is also a very powerful trait made baseline. Blink is a 1200 range stun breaker/port now.
15% Phantasm damage baseline. Tealots tested this with me, you know how much i zerker hits me? 8k in full glass. All 4 hits. One phantasm. Can be casted on range, in stealth, does not break stealth.
Those above are only baseline traits. NO new traits yet.
The new trait further bolsters this. 1200 range stun breaker/port, 24 second cd, 2 second reflect. adept major.
Champion Illusionist Champion Hunter Champion Phantom Champion Magus
(edited by StickerHappy.8052)
We got overbuffed people. Not hating. Just Keeping it real.
The only traits that need re-balancing are CS and PU. This is in addition to a game-wide scaling of power.
We are hardly the only class that got “overbuffed”. Outside of bugs, the only classes not needing much of a reworking are Warrior, Ranger and Necro.
Ranger not needing a rework? Are you serious?
Anyway, we are overbuffed dude. One example, What was the uniqueness of Shatter builds before? IP.
Guess what any build can now have an on demand shatter.
IE which is also a very powerful trait made baseline. Blink is a 1200 range stun breaker/port now.
15% Phantasm damage baseline. Tealots tested this with me, you know how much i zerker hits me? 8k in full glass. All 4 hits. One phantasm. Can be casted on range, in stealth, does not break stealth.
Those above are only baseline traits. NO new traits yet.
The new trait further bolsters this. 1200 range stun breaker/port, 24 second cd, 2 second reflect. adept major.
What’s the story here? The story is that “Mesmers have things from before as baseline”. The problem here is that saying so is rather redundant. At best its like operating within a veil of ignorance. Like, it doesnt help any to point it out because A: there’s no honest review of contrasting balance taking place, and B: those things are baseline now which means we start all discussions from the point that it is only right, fair, and balanced for them to exist that way within the core Mesmer class. To clarify: We’re not being given free traits. This is the Mesmer class. It’s beyond time for a shift in paradigm.
Your biggest issue in actually addressing balance issues, Stickers, is the same as most of the player base (which you see when reading all these Mesmer QQ threads). It’s an inability to let go of the past system and recognize there’s something completely different going on, and being created for.
People feel that mesmer got more buffs than the other proffesions. This is I think true – mesmers are the only one who received meaningful buffs ACROSS THE BOARD.
Bluntly, people hate mesmers now because they are faceroll.
it’s about on the same skill level as other classes now.
Err, good?
I mean, every class should be a class worth playing, accessible to anyone who likes the general style and flow of it.
The way to show off your skill level is to win, not to play trashy stuff.
No, it’s considerably worse than that. I made a condi mesmer in a private arena today (no idea if it’s a good build or not, I slapped it together) and it was insanely easy to repeatedly beat two very capable thieves in my guild.
As mentioned in the other thread, I’m trash on my mesmer. Also, I hadn’t played a condi build since leveling my mesmer in the 30s-40s about a year ago. There’s no way that anyone that’s practically new to a class should be rick rolling over capable players.
And to address the “maybe you’re just better than your guildies”, one of them steamrolled me on my main just before I brought the mesmer in. After that, I lost two matches of maybe 20.
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
it’s about on the same skill level as other classes now.
Err, good?
I mean, every class should be a class worth playing, accessible to anyone who likes the general style and flow of it.
The way to show off your skill level is to win, not to play trashy stuff.
No, it’s considerably worse than that. I made a condi mesmer in a private arena today (no idea if it’s a good build or not, I slapped it together) and it was insanely easy to repeatedly beat two very capable thieves in my guild.
As mentioned in the other thread, I’m trash on my mesmer. Also, I hadn’t played a condi build since leveling my mesmer in the 30s-40s about a year ago. There’s no way that anyone that’s practically new to a class should be rick rolling over capable players.
And to address the “maybe you’re just better than your guildies”, one of them steamrolled me on my main just before I brought the mesmer in. After that, I lost two matches of maybe 20.
Condi mes was a thief hardcounter before the patch. If you played mes more you’d of known that -_-u
Ranger not needing a rework? Are you serious?
By rework, I meant, those are the only classes NOT over-buffed. I see Necro/Ranger as bottom tier classes unfortunately. Warrior is in a good place. Thief/Engi are nearly in a good place. Guardian/Ele/Mesmer are top tier.
Anyway, we are overbuffed dude. One example, What was the uniqueness of Shatter builds before? IP.
Sorry, but this second assertion is blatantly incorrect. Shatter builds existed without IP before. The difference is that the ONLY shatter build that was [arguably] viable was 4/4/0/0/6 with IP & DE. IP makes shattering viable in and of itself; considering shattering is our class mechanic, I don’t know why this shouldn’t be baseline.
Guess what any build can now have an on demand shatter.
Again, this is a good thing and not to be considered an “overbuff”. Anet finally has made shattering less of a punishment. See above reply.
IE which is also a very powerful trait made baseline. Blink is a 1200 range stun breaker/port now. The new trait further bolsters this. 1200 range stun breaker/port, 24 second cd, 2 second reflect. adept major.
While IE is an arguable subject, I see nothing wrong with the Blink buff. We are compensated with such evades due to being a light profession that can’t stand to be in the thick of battle.
15% Phantasm damage baseline. Tealots tested this with me, you know how much i zerker hits me? 8k in full glass. All 4 hits. One phantasm. Can be casted on range, in stealth, does not break stealth.
Again, your issue should be directed towards power stat creep among all classes. Other classes are doing similar dmg if not more. Stealth is a separate issue that I probably agree with you on.
https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
it’s about on the same skill level as other classes now.
Err, good?
I mean, every class should be a class worth playing, accessible to anyone who likes the general style and flow of it.
The way to show off your skill level is to win, not to play trashy stuff.
No, it’s considerably worse than that. I made a condi mesmer in a private arena today (no idea if it’s a good build or not, I slapped it together) and it was insanely easy to repeatedly beat two very capable thieves in my guild.
#SpoilerAlert: Condition Mesmer counters thieves. It would be like if I made a thief, slapped a build together and then dueled a pre-revamp power shatter Mesmer. Chances are I’d have a pretty good shot at taking him down…
https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
Condi mes was a thief hardcounter before the patch. If you played mes more you’d of known that -_-u
I don’t think you’re fully appreciating the skill difference here. I still had to look at my skill bar to figure out what to do next and wasn’t sure where the burns and bleeds were coming from. That I haven’t played enough mes to know condi mes was a hard counter to thief should be evidence enough that I have no business dominating them without breaking a sweat.
Even for a hard counter build, that’s ridiculous. Further, I doubt I would have had nearly as much success running a condi or hybrid warrior against them, and I actually know that class very well. Finally, I’ve been wrecking pretty serious face in wvw, considering how bad I am, using a PU shatter build.
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Condi mes was a thief hardcounter before the patch. If you played mes more you’d of known that -_-u
I don’t think you’re fully appreciating the skill difference here. I still had to look at my skill bar to figure out what to do next and wasn’t sure where the burns and bleeds were coming from. That I haven’t played enough mes to know condi mes was a hard counter to thief should be evidence enough that I have no business dominating them without breaking a sweat.
Even for a hard counter build, that’s ridiculous. Further, I doubt I would have had nearly as much success running a condi or hybrid warrior against them, and I actually know that class very well. Finally, I’ve been wrecking pretty serious face in wvw, considering how bad I am, using a PU shatter build.
Hard counters are called hard counters for a reason. It allows someone with less skill to easily beat someone with more skill due to the innate imbalances between two specific build archetypes.
Comparing Condi War/Mesmer versus thief is not a legitimate argument here. The reason you might have not had as much success is because Condi War =/= Condi Mesmer. To reiterate, the builds and mechanics are different.
https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
Condi mes was a thief hardcounter before the patch. If you played mes more you’d of known that -_-u
I don’t think you’re fully appreciating the skill difference here. I still had to look at my skill bar to figure out what to do next and wasn’t sure where the burns and bleeds were coming from. That I haven’t played enough mes to know condi mes was a hard counter to thief should be evidence enough that I have no business dominating them without breaking a sweat.
Even for a hard counter build, that’s ridiculous. Further, I doubt I would have had nearly as much success running a condi or hybrid warrior against them, and I actually know that class very well. Finally, I’ve been wrecking pretty serious face in wvw, considering how bad I am, using a PU shatter build.
Hard counters are called hard counters for a reason. It allows someone with less skill to easily beat someone with more skill due to the innate imbalances between two specific build archetypes.
Comparing Condi War/Mesmer versus thief is not a legitimate argument here. The reason you might have not had as much success is because Condi War =/= Condi Mesmer. To reiterate, the builds and mechanics are different.
Right. If you want to hard counter a thief on war, there are far better builds for the job.
Try fighting those two thieves on a power mesmer.
It’s doable but it’s not a button-mash by any stretch of the imagination.
Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com
Mesmer got a ton of stuff baseline because pre-patch, there was almost no variety in builds. If you wanted to any major help to your team, you went shatter, and that meant taking Illusions, Dueling and Dom. No real room to switch those trait lines around and the traits you picked in most of them were mandatory.Shattered Concentration? mandatory. Illusionary Elasticity and IP? Mandatory. Deceptive Evasion? Mandatory. So that right there set in stone all the trait lines you could take since that puts you at Master level traits in Dom and Dueling and GM in Illusions.
Same goes for your utility slots. Because getting focused meant getting dead, you always ran blink and almost always ran decoy. Last utility was usually portal if your team was smart enough to utilize it. So no condi removal at all, and that was the meta build.
IP was made baseline because Anet said that shatters should be something that all mesmers utilize, not just zerker burst mesmers or Maim mesmers. Mesmer finally has some solid alternative builds that work and achieve different things instead of Zerker shatter being top, maim and lockdown being ok afterthoughts.
There’s some stuff I really want to see balanced down a bit (CI, BD, PU) but all these declarations that you can literally faceroll your way through anything on a mesmer now are pretty dang comical.
And the whole “Mesmer used to take skill!” song and dance is just sad. Sad.
I agree totally.
So much exaggeration/hyperbole regarding mesmers at the moment, it’s getting kind of silly now.
There are one or two small mesmer specific things that can be toned down to help with balance (CS, Blinding Dissipation, PU, perhaps the free 15% phantasm damage). Everything else is to do with toning down damage across the board – amulets, damage calculations and so on.
Aside from those two or three traits, mesmer is totally fine and not much different than pre patch.
Mezmer is a thief now and thief is a garbage
Mezmer is a thief now and thief is a garbage
Yes, your right. Atm, thief is garbage, in the wrong hands. In the right hands, well thats another story. But most thief players have garbage skill’s vs mesmer players. & i for one am loving every moments of the hell & payback i’m serving every thief trolling players i’ve ever crossed. Karma is a Bltch!
Condi mes was a thief hardcounter before the patch. If you played mes more you’d of known that -_-u
I don’t think you’re fully appreciating the skill difference here. I still had to look at my skill bar to figure out what to do next and wasn’t sure where the burns and bleeds were coming from. That I haven’t played enough mes to know condi mes was a hard counter to thief should be evidence enough that I have no business dominating them without breaking a sweat.
Even for a hard counter build, that’s ridiculous. Further, I doubt I would have had nearly as much success running a condi or hybrid warrior against them, and I actually know that class very well. Finally, I’ve been wrecking pretty serious face in wvw, considering how bad I am, using a PU shatter build.
Hard counters are called hard counters for a reason. It allows someone with less skill to easily beat someone with more skill due to the innate imbalances between two specific build archetypes.
Comparing Condi War/Mesmer versus thief is not a legitimate argument here. The reason you might have not had as much success is because Condi War =/= Condi Mesmer. To reiterate, the builds and mechanics are different.
This is so wrong. Hard counters should be “an equally skilled or almost equally skilled (10 to a 9.5) player will have a greater chance to kill you because of a class mechanic” Otherwise, there would be no point if he is less skilled, he will never beat you if he is less skilled, if he does then i do not know what to say. That logic that thieves hard counters mesmers is true BUT, assuming this is equal skill. If you pitted me against a D/P thief more less skilled than me? (i.e. He is 7 and I am a 10) Goodluck to that thief.
If you still believe on your argument, Create a thief and fight my shatter mesmer. I am expecting you to win most if not all matches.
Champion Illusionist Champion Hunter Champion Phantom Champion Magus
(edited by StickerHappy.8052)
We got overbuffed people. Not hating. Just Keeping it real.
The only traits that need re-balancing are CS and PU. This is in addition to a game-wide scaling of power.
We are hardly the only class that got “overbuffed”. Outside of bugs, the only classes not needing much of a reworking are Warrior, Ranger and Necro.
Ranger not needing a rework? Are you serious?
Anyway, we are overbuffed dude. One example, What was the uniqueness of Shatter builds before? IP.
Guess what any build can now have an on demand shatter.
IE which is also a very powerful trait made baseline. Blink is a 1200 range stun breaker/port now.
15% Phantasm damage baseline. Tealots tested this with me, you know how much i zerker hits me? 8k in full glass. All 4 hits. One phantasm. Can be casted on range, in stealth, does not break stealth.
Those above are only baseline traits. NO new traits yet.
The new trait further bolsters this. 1200 range stun breaker/port, 24 second cd, 2 second reflect. adept major.
What’s the story here? The story is that “Mesmers have things from before as baseline”. The problem here is that saying so is rather redundant. At best its like operating within a veil of ignorance. Like, it doesnt help any to point it out because A: there’s no honest review of contrasting balance taking place, and B: those things are baseline now which means we start all discussions from the point that it is only right, fair, and balanced for them to exist that way within the core Mesmer class. To clarify: We’re not being given free traits. This is the Mesmer class. It’s beyond time for a shift in paradigm.
Your biggest issue in actually addressing balance issues, Stickers, is the same as most of the player base (which you see when reading all these Mesmer QQ threads). It’s an inability to let go of the past system and recognize there’s something completely different going on, and being created for.
SO you’re saying because it’s a core mechanic (not referring to IP, Imo that was a needed change)?
So by definition since ranger’s mechanic is the pet, Emphatic Bond should be baseline. You know how many people will rage over that?
Oh, this is not about letting go. Mesmers got overbuffed, a lot of players are saying that, even top ones. If you tone down burning, hell even mesmers will do more damage than eles.
This is also not about me getting destroyed by mesmers (ask chaos, icy, tealots, pepsi, duke, etc)
Yes you could say more diversity, but every build now is a mashup of shatter/interrupt/PU.
Champion Illusionist Champion Hunter Champion Phantom Champion Magus
(edited by StickerHappy.8052)
If the damage was reduced looked at then more constructive feedback testing could be done on all classes to adjust. What the Mesmer received post patch is to make the class viable in all game modes. Or an attempt to. Imo once they fix stat transfer then we should (mesmer) fit into the current meta snapping up. I am sorry some people do not want the Mesmer there but I am happy Mesmer has received the fixes it needed.
This is so wrong. Hard counters should be “an equally skilled or almost equally skilled (10 to a 9.5) player will have a greater chance to kill you because of a class mechanic” Otherwise, there would be no point if he is less skilled, he will never beat you if he is less skilled, if he does then i do not know what to say. That logic that thieves hard counters mesmers is true BUT, assuming this is equal skill. If you pitted me against a D/P thief more less skilled than me? (i.e. He is 7 and I am a 10) Goodluck to that thief.
If you still believe on your argument, Create a thief and fight my shatter mesmer. I am expecting you to win most if not all matches.
Exactly. If someone wants to take the position that a build for one class is a hard counter to an entire class, regardless of massive skill imbalance between players, they’ve already conceded the balance argument.
Some people are being way too defensive about mesmers here. There’s been very little “OMFG nerf mesmers now!!1!111”, but if you can’t recognize the faceroll that mesmers have become relative to most other classes then you’re in the bubble. That doesn’t mean they’re immortal, or that other classes/builds can’t provide some challenge or even be favoured in some fights, but some balancing is clearly called for.
@ASP
I didn’t say one mesmer build facerolls through everything no matter what, I said a condi mesmer rolled through very competent thieves despite the mesmer having practically zero experience on a condi build, having just slapped a build together seconds before without any guidance, and without fully understanding what the different skills did.
I’ve also been running power shatter in wvw and, there too, it’s been a faceroll relative to other classes despite my low skill level with the mesmer. This is immediately obvious to anyone used to other classes who are now running mesmers, evidenced by the massive spike in the wvw mesmer population since patch.
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
(edited by Choppy.4183)
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
That has nothing to do with ‘having meaning’ or not. It has to do with how much risk you need to invest to possibly get the result you want.
Ex. I want to cast meteor shower in the middle of a fight with a war. It is a big powerful spell that can win a fight if:
-If I accept to stay immobile for nearly 4 sec. if I want the full effect, possibly investing in long cd (armor or earth, magnetic aura etc.) to do it more safely or gambling it won’t be interrupted and I will survive that decision.
- If my positioning and placement is good enough and my opponent can’t get out of the aoe with no damage.
-the rgn of the ms is on my side.
Is the risk of playing that card at that moment while blowing these cd worth it? Or did I blew 2 cd and lost 50% + of my life for nothing?
what is the mesmer’s risk if he can reset any fight unless you one shot him? How difficult is it to land your burst if you can prepare it from stealth and it has a relatively low cd on it? How hard is it to interrupt something important when interrupts are so readily available? How dumb and reckless do you have to be to pay for your mistakes?
Landing burst from stealth is more difficult than a thief, was the same pre patch. Only thing is damage is a little off (high)for all classes. This has been discussed at length already and can be learned by playing. Each class has its own risk rewards. That ele your discussing has the same insane burst as a Mesmer, now phenomenal disengage potential and is invaluable in a Zerg.
It’s more than a L2P issue here I’m afraid. Beside, I still don’t see the relevance of saying eles are invaluable to zergs. I mean, yes they are but what does it have to do with risk vs reward?
The damage of the ele is also insanely high, like all now, that is true but, again, it comes with inherent risks that I really don’t see on the mesmers we have now. Like at all.
And your right there is no risk running an ele right now. Insane burst supreme sustain through heals and condition clearing and when it gets ugly zoom off to the races.
Am I to understand that you have run into an invasion of ele that you couldn’t hope to defeat with your mesmer when login in wvw lately? Strangely, what I saw was a spike in mesmer pop, not ele.
I main an ele and the win loss ratio vs mesmers is stupidly low for me despite the huge amount of hours I’ve invested in my profession… I suppose every blasted one of these mesmers I run in also have thousands of hours under their belt… make sense…
I’ll make a deal with you Denis. I’ll remove the dust of my shatter mesmer and you will play the zerk staff ele I roam with… We will test your theory about ele having no risk and compare how much more different it feels risky to you on the other side of the mirror…
This is so wrong. Hard counters should be “an equally skilled or almost equally skilled (10 to a 9.5) player will have a greater chance to kill you because of a class mechanic” Otherwise, there would be no point if he is less skilled, he will never beat you if he is less skilled, if he does then i do not know what to say. That logic that thieves hard counters mesmers is true BUT, assuming this is equal skill. If you pitted me against a D/P thief more less skilled than me? (i.e. He is 7 and I am a 10) Goodluck to that thief.
If you still believe on your argument, Create a thief and fight my shatter mesmer. I am expecting you to win most if not all matches.
Exactly. If someone wants to take the position that a build for one class is a hard counter to an entire class, regardless of massive skill imbalance between players, they’ve already conceded the balance argument.
Some people are being way too defensive about mesmers here. There’s been very little “OMFG nerf mesmers now!!1!111”, but if you can’t recognize the faceroll that mesmers have become relative to most other classes then you’re in the bubble. That doesn’t mean they’re immortal, or that other classes/builds can’t provide some challenge or even be favoured in some fights, but some balancing is clearly called for.
Exactly, I am not asking for nerfs, but denial that we got that most out of everything is what irks me off.
Champion Illusionist Champion Hunter Champion Phantom Champion Magus
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
That has nothing to do with ‘having meaning’ or not. It has to do with how much risk you need to invest to possibly get the result you want.
Ex. I want to cast meteor shower in the middle of a fight with a war. It is a big powerful spell that can win a fight if:
-If I accept to stay immobile for nearly 4 sec. if I want the full effect, possibly investing in long cd (armor or earth, magnetic aura etc.) to do it more safely or gambling it won’t be interrupted and I will survive that decision.
- If my positioning and placement is good enough and my opponent can’t get out of the aoe with no damage.
-the rgn of the ms is on my side.
Is the risk of playing that card at that moment while blowing these cd worth it? Or did I blew 2 cd and lost 50% + of my life for nothing?
what is the mesmer’s risk if he can reset any fight unless you one shot him? How difficult is it to land your burst if you can prepare it from stealth and it has a relatively low cd on it? How hard is it to interrupt something important when interrupts are so readily available? How dumb and reckless do you have to be to pay for your mistakes?
Landing burst from stealth is more difficult than a thief, was the same pre patch. Only thing is damage is a little off (high)for all classes. This has been discussed at length already and can be learned by playing. Each class has its own risk rewards. That ele your discussing has the same insane burst as a Mesmer, now phenomenal disengage potential and is invaluable in a Zerg.
It’s more than a L2P issue here I’m afraid. Beside, I still don’t see the relevance of saying eles are invaluable to zergs. I mean, yes they are but what does it have to do with risk vs reward?
The damage of the ele is also insanely high, like all now, that is true but, again, it comes with inherent risks that I really don’t see on the mesmers we have now. Like at all.
And your right there is no risk running an ele right now. Insane burst supreme sustain through heals and condition clearing and when it gets ugly zoom off to the races.
Am I to understand that you have run into an invasion of ele that you couldn’t hope to defeat with your mesmer when login in wvw lately? Strangely, what I saw was a spike in mesmer pop, not ele.
I main an ele and the win loss ratio vs mesmers is stupidly low for me despite the huge amount of hours I’ve invested in my profession… I suppose every blasted one of these mesmers I run in also have thousands of hours under their belt… make sense…
I’ll make a deal with you Denis. I’ll remove the dust of my shatter mesmer and you will play the zerk staff ele I roam with… We will test your theory about ele having no risk and compare how much more different it feels risky to you on the other side of the mirror…
Zerk staff ele is very hard if not the hardest class/spec to play. No contest.
Champion Illusionist Champion Hunter Champion Phantom Champion Magus
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
That has nothing to do with ‘having meaning’ or not. It has to do with how much risk you need to invest to possibly get the result you want.
Ex. I want to cast meteor shower in the middle of a fight with a war. It is a big powerful spell that can win a fight if:
-If I accept to stay immobile for nearly 4 sec. if I want the full effect, possibly investing in long cd (armor or earth, magnetic aura etc.) to do it more safely or gambling it won’t be interrupted and I will survive that decision.
- If my positioning and placement is good enough and my opponent can’t get out of the aoe with no damage.
-the rgn of the ms is on my side.
Is the risk of playing that card at that moment while blowing these cd worth it? Or did I blew 2 cd and lost 50% + of my life for nothing?
what is the mesmer’s risk if he can reset any fight unless you one shot him? How difficult is it to land your burst if you can prepare it from stealth and it has a relatively low cd on it? How hard is it to interrupt something important when interrupts are so readily available? How dumb and reckless do you have to be to pay for your mistakes?
Landing burst from stealth is more difficult than a thief, was the same pre patch. Only thing is damage is a little off (high)for all classes. This has been discussed at length already and can be learned by playing. Each class has its own risk rewards. That ele your discussing has the same insane burst as a Mesmer, now phenomenal disengage potential and is invaluable in a Zerg.
It’s more than a L2P issue here I’m afraid. Beside, I still don’t see the relevance of saying eles are invaluable to zergs. I mean, yes they are but what does it have to do with risk vs reward?
The damage of the ele is also insanely high, like all now, that is true but, again, it comes with inherent risks that I really don’t see on the mesmers we have now. Like at all.
And your right there is no risk running an ele right now. Insane burst supreme sustain through heals and condition clearing and when it gets ugly zoom off to the races.
Am I to understand that you have run into an invasion of ele that you couldn’t hope to defeat with your mesmer when login in wvw lately? Strangely, what I saw was a spike in mesmer pop, not ele.
I main an ele and the win loss ratio vs mesmers is stupidly low for me despite the huge amount of hours I’ve invested in my profession… I suppose every blasted one of these mesmers I run in also have thousands of hours under their belt… make sense…
I’ll make a deal with you Denis. I’ll remove the dust of my shatter mesmer and you will play the zerk staff ele I roam with… We will test your theory about ele having no risk and compare how much more different it feels risky to you on the other side of the mirror…
Well not for nothing. Roaming with staff is not that optimal. I prefer dagger/dagger scepter.
All the professions received buffs and are doing better. However, the mesmer received a lot of stuff that it had to specifically trait for all together. Now it can run shatter, phantasms, and interrupts all very effectively in the same build.
The problem is that most of the suggested nerfs want to destroy the mesmer or push them to the margins of competitive play.
Below are some changes that I feel will keep the mesmer strong where is always has been, but reduce its ability to be so strong in all those areas at the same time.
I suggest lowing the baseline damage of phantasms and shatters and putting that damage back intro traits. If you want to do a strong shatter burst, you need to give up Power Block. If you want strong phantasms, you need to give up Confounding Suggestions. In fact, I’d rather that it wasn’t so easy to take both Empowered Illusions and Mental Anguish together either.
Other changes would be some reasonable fixes and small adjustments. Clearly, Blinding Dissipation needs adjustment. Either a cooldown or make it no longer proc when the opponent evades the shatter. But just one and see how it goes.
The immobilize on Chaotic Interruption needs a cooldown. 15 seconds seem reasonable to me.
I have a hard time justifying nerfing PU. It’s not good in PvP, except for 1v1s, which isn’t what PvP is about. It’s very good in WvW, but so are thieves’ stealths, rangers’ range, guardians’ retaliation, and warriors’ sustain. There’s no reason mesmers should be singled out there. It has some situational uses in PvE that I wouldn’t like to see disappear because it makes the mesmer a useful alternative when you don’t have a thief.
Rather, I’d make some changes to how stealth works for the mesmer. Mesmers should lose stealth (and be revealed) when they successfully summon a phantasm or interrupt with Power Block. Using damage skills and keeping stealth shouldn’t be allowed on any profession.
This is so wrong. Hard counters should be “an equally skilled or almost equally skilled (10 to a 9.5) player will have a greater chance to kill you because of a class mechanic” Otherwise, there would be no point if he is less skilled, he will never beat you if he is less skilled, if he does then i do not know what to say. That logic that thieves hard counters mesmers is true BUT, assuming this is equal skill. If you pitted me against a D/P thief more less skilled than me? (i.e. He is 7 and I am a 10) Goodluck to that thief.
If you still believe on your argument, Create a thief and fight my shatter mesmer. I am expecting you to win most if not all matches.
Exactly. If someone wants to take the position that a build for one class is a hard counter to an entire class, regardless of massive skill imbalance between players, they’ve already conceded the balance argument.
Some people are being way too defensive about mesmers here. There’s been very little “OMFG nerf mesmers now!!1!111”, but if you can’t recognize the faceroll that mesmers have become relative to most other classes then you’re in the bubble. That doesn’t mean they’re immortal, or that other classes/builds can’t provide some challenge or even be favoured in some fights, but some balancing is clearly called for.
@ASP
I didn’t say one mesmer build facerolls through everything no matter what, I said a condi mesmer rolled through very competent thieves despite the mesmer having practically zero experience on a condi build, having just slapped a build together seconds before without any guidance, and without fully understanding what the different skills did.I’ve also been running power shatter in wvw and, there too, it’s been a faceroll relative to other classes despite my low skill level with the mesmer. This is immediately obvious to anyone used to other classes who are now running mesmers, evidenced by the massive spike in the wvw mesmer population since patch.
Just to be clear the massive Mesmer population(haven’t seen anymore than normal on my end highly subjective) is in roaming, this is again an area not supported by a balance that you want. Although Mesmer has improved in Zerg play I would still rather take an ele or guardian due to those classes have a much bigger impact during engagements.
The problem is that most of the suggested nerfs want to destroy the mesmer or push them to the margins of competitive play.
Below are some changes that I feel will keep the mesmer strong where is always has been, but reduce its ability to be so strong in all those areas at the same time.
<bunch of proposed changes>
I haven’t seen many people calling for specific changes at all (short of the PU thread), and I haven’t seen any evidence that anyone wants to push mesmers to the margins.
However, based solely on experience, mesmers are in very real jeopardy of having this happen unless specific fixes are made. Eventually the chorus of people calling for nerfs grows, and the nerfs that come tend to miss the mark and hit way too hard.
Mesmer’s a tricky class to get right, and it’d be very easy to break it through imprecise nerfs. The best thing people who understand mesmers and balance in this game can do is identify the specific changes that are needed before the mobs bring the torches and pitchforks and gut the class completely.
To that end, I personally appreciate your suggestions. I’m in absolutely no position to validate them, so defer to more knowledgeable mesmers.
I have a hard time justifying nerfing PU. It’s not good in PvP, except for 1v1s, which isn’t what PvP is about. It’s very good in WvW, but so are thieves’ stealths, rangers’ range, guardians’ retaliation, and warriors’ sustain. There’s no reason mesmers should be singled out there. It has some situational uses in PvE that I wouldn’t like to see disappear because it makes the mesmer a useful alternative when you don’t have a thief.
Maybe you can explain this argument. If the reason PU isn’t good in pvp is that long stealths aren’t advantageous, and so it’s not worth taking the Chaos line over other lines to get PU on most builds, then how does pvp factor into any decision about whether or not to reduce the stealth bonus from PU?
In wvw, how does the fact that thieves have abusable stealth support the notion that mesmers should have it too?
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
To be fair all classes who did zerker damage were buffed in damage. Anet is deciding whether they want to revert it. But it is hardly a faceroll. All classes are operating at this damage extreme. It is hardly unique to mesmer.
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
Maybe you can explain this argument. If the reason PU isn’t good in pvp is that long stealths aren’t advantageous, and so it’s not worth taking the Chaos line over other lines to get PU on most builds, then how does pvp factor into any decision about whether or not to reduce the stealth bonus from PU?
In wvw, how does the fact that thieves have abusable stealth support the notion that mesmers should have it too?
My point is the same you are making. PvP doesn’t really factor into whether PU should be nerfed, but that’s where most of the complaints are coming from.
In WvW, my argument is that why should mesmers be singled out when other professions have very strong abilities in WvW too. PU currently gives mesmers a place in the sparse roaming scene. In fact, it’s not really strong anywhere else in WvW.
My overall point is that the problem with PU isn’t PU. It’s the inconsistent way that stealth is implemented on mesmers. Mesmers can still use damage skills while in stealth. With this fixed, the problems with PU become significantly less.
@Daniel Handler
It’s not just a matter of a boost to damage output, it’s also the relative risk to deliver that damage. As an example, I typically main a warrior and I’ve been playing it zerk for about two years now.
As you say, post-patch every zerk build I run has higher damage output than it did before. However, due to a number of changes related to relative mobility, ranged spike in other classes, and the conditions needed to deliver zerk warrior damage, there’s relatively high risk for reward.
With my zerk mesmer, damage is cranked up too. But the conditions needed to deliver that damage, and then to shake aggro to set up for more damage delivery, are considerably less risky. The means more opportunities to deliver damage, and therefore much higher dps as well.
@DaShi
With respect to the singling out argument, even if things were equal between thieves and mesmers in this respect, the argument should be, “yes, reduce PU stealth for mesmers” and “while you’re at it, [make this specific change] to thief stealth too”, not “leave PU alone”. All the latter does is make the problem worse.
That said, I find mesmer stealth more problematic in wvw than thief stealth. It’s easier to use, is harder to predict (as an opponent), is combined with a greater number of other defensive bonuses, is on a class that can apply significant ranged pressure, and then there’s the whole “let’s port in the horde” issue.
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
(edited by Choppy.4183)
basically: you are a thief attacking from 1200 range, with invuln/reflect.
Attacking at 1200 range greatly reduces your burst potential. Greatsword is ranged pressure but its real 100-to-0 burst capability is almost all melee (Mirror Blade into a shatter).
You can Blink in for the burst but then you’re sacrificing your best escape/positioning tool. It’s very much an “all-in” kind of move. Shatter Mesmers could always do it (there are some great videos!), the only thing that really changed now is Confounding Suggestions making the burst easier to stick, and trait changes allowing builds other than 4/4/0/0/6 to be playable without having rubbish damage output.
I think you understood my point. It was meaning “starting from”. And sorry but it was not rubbish at all pre-patch. You just needed to know what you were doing. Because one error and you were dead.
Whereas mesmer now: high reward without any skill.So all other classes are high reward without any skill. Since Mesmer even with the best player skill pre patch had no identity in pvp struggled in wvw unless veiling and golem duty, and was not taken in pve. So since Mesmer joined the ranks with the other classes to actually have meaning in the environments we play we are “high reward without any skill”
That has nothing to do with ‘having meaning’ or not. It has to do with how much risk you need to invest to possibly get the result you want.
Ex. I want to cast meteor shower in the middle of a fight with a war. It is a big powerful spell that can win a fight if:
-If I accept to stay immobile for nearly 4 sec. if I want the full effect, possibly investing in long cd (armor or earth, magnetic aura etc.) to do it more safely or gambling it won’t be interrupted and I will survive that decision.
- If my positioning and placement is good enough and my opponent can’t get out of the aoe with no damage.
-the rgn of the ms is on my side.
Is the risk of playing that card at that moment while blowing these cd worth it? Or did I blew 2 cd and lost 50% + of my life for nothing?
what is the mesmer’s risk if he can reset any fight unless you one shot him? How difficult is it to land your burst if you can prepare it from stealth and it has a relatively low cd on it? How hard is it to interrupt something important when interrupts are so readily available? How dumb and reckless do you have to be to pay for your mistakes?
Landing burst from stealth is more difficult than a thief, was the same pre patch. Only thing is damage is a little off (high)for all classes. This has been discussed at length already and can be learned by playing. Each class has its own risk rewards. That ele your discussing has the same insane burst as a Mesmer, now phenomenal disengage potential and is invaluable in a Zerg.
It’s more than a L2P issue here I’m afraid. Beside, I still don’t see the relevance of saying eles are invaluable to zergs. I mean, yes they are but what does it have to do with risk vs reward?
The damage of the ele is also insanely high, like all now, that is true but, again, it comes with inherent risks that I really don’t see on the mesmers we have now. Like at all.
And your right there is no risk running an ele right now. Insane burst supreme sustain through heals and condition clearing and when it gets ugly zoom off to the races.
Am I to understand that you have run into an invasion of ele that you couldn’t hope to defeat with your mesmer when login in wvw lately? Strangely, what I saw was a spike in mesmer pop, not ele.
I main an ele and the win loss ratio vs mesmers is stupidly low for me despite the huge amount of hours I’ve invested in my profession… I suppose every blasted one of these mesmers I run in also have thousands of hours under their belt… make sense…
I’ll make a deal with you Denis. I’ll remove the dust of my shatter mesmer and you will play the zerk staff ele I roam with… We will test your theory about ele having no risk and compare how much more different it feels risky to you on the other side of the mirror…
Well not for nothing. Roaming with staff is not that optimal. I prefer dagger/dagger scepter.
But even scepter and d/d have risks. Granted celestial d/d is extremely forgivable compared to the rest but it still carry risks. I can take on a celestial d/d ele of my experience and hope to win with my zerk staff. A shatter, PU or mantra mesmer of my level is death incarnate with almost no hope of finishing them if I ever put enough pressure on them.
(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)
Maybe you can explain this argument. If the reason PU isn’t good in pvp is that long stealths aren’t advantageous, and so it’s not worth taking the Chaos line over other lines to get PU on most builds, then how does pvp factor into any decision about whether or not to reduce the stealth bonus from PU?
In wvw, how does the fact that thieves have abusable stealth support the notion that mesmers should have it too?
You have your arguments the wrong way around. Mesmer is as it is now because Anet wants it so. You should provide reasons for the nerf not just “because I say so” or “I want it” as in their eyes it is right exactly as is. You need to make a case for a change, not propose a change and ask for cases to not change it, that’s the logic of a child and I assume you aren’t a child.
So if it’s not an issue in PvP where stealth won’t get you the points and indeed just allows the opponent to gain an advantage and that is the mode they primarily balance around, then what is the reason to nerf it?
Likewise in WvW if it’s not affording any more of an advantage than what is already there on other classes, especially when there is a counter specific to that game mode, why does it needed to change?
This applies to all things not just PU.
Right now the main issues are damage across all classes not just mesmer and the amount of stuns mesmer is using at relatively little cost. Having said that, the stun lock mesmer is horrifyingly weak to condi, I mean, weaker than a PvE zerk ele going all damage. Yet we’re not seeing people use it. Let the meta settle.
@apharma
A couple things about your line of reasoning here. First, by that rationale Anet always understands the implications of the changes it makes and everything is deliberate, which is an unrealistic expectation. But if it were true, they would never need to make “balance changes” unless they consistently change their mind about what they want. Either way, your “that’s what Anet wants” falls apart.
As for the reasons for changes, I’ve already provided them. In the PU thread, I provided specific reasons tied directly to the proposed rollback on one aspect of one trait. In this thread, I’ve been more general, pointing out broader balance problems (e.g. the ability of low-skill to trump high skill based solely on class), leaving specific “fixes” to people with a better handle on the class (like DaShi).
At no point have I said, “Mesmer needs to be nerfed now because I say so!”, and it’s disingenuous for you to say otherwise. I’m in the process of transitioning over to mesmer right now… if I was the sort of person you seem to be implying, I’d be one of those people claiming mesmer is balanced and everyone who says otherwise be hatin’.
I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)
Thing is, you admitted that it was not an issue, not overpowered and then asked for it to be changed anyway asking for reasons it shouldn’t. THAT is what I am saying is the reasoning of a child.
As for Anet and the decisions they make. They make changes because they think it should be done or it’s the way they want something to function, example is ranger longbow and the 1500 range with double arrow speed as baseline.
I am not saying they get it perfect first time but I am saying it’s usually in the region they want, especially when it is a pronounced change. That is where my “That’s what Anet wants” isn’t falling apart like you are fond of misconstruing.