Guild Wars 2

according to a reply i got in a previous post i did, shatter builds in pve dont seem to be very viable because they lack good sustained dps in comparisong to keeping phantasm up.

i tried going to phantasm, and tbh, or else im doing something wrong or the build gameplay is quite boring xD; summoning phantasm and just auto attacking, not being able to use more skills cause most summon the useless clones that could rewrite our phantasm. and the phantasm dissapearing when their target dies, making them quite anoying in battles with lot of enemies.

atleast with shatter you are active spaming them shatteers either for mind wrack or to apply confusion, and the shatter affects multyple enemies so its kinda an aoe build too

so just wondering if im doing something wrong and there is a more “fun” way to play phantasm mesmer, or if there is any notice about shatter mesmers getting somekind of buff in the future (appart from the new F5 shatter) to make them more viable dungeons/bossing content

We don’t know.
They talked a lot about how they want to make PVE less boring and more similar to PvP combat. If they manage that, shatters might have a place in PVE. Until I see it in game with my own eyes, I won’t believe it

There’s no inherent issue with shatters in PvE. The reason they’re bad is simply that they don’t do nearly as much sustained damage as phantasms do. If through some unknown series of buffs this ceases to be the case, then they’ll be perfectly viable.

Fay.2357:

There’s no inherent issue with shatters in PvE. The reason they’re bad is simply that they don’t do nearly as much sustained damage as phantasms do. If through some unknown series of buffs this ceases to be the case, then they’ll be perfectly viable.

One inherent issue with shatters is that they die too easily from AOE which eliminates your ability to generate enough shatter fodder for even mediocre damage in these types of encounters. Shatter has always been a wonky DPS delivery method and created too much with 1v1 encounters in mind.

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

There’s no inherent issue with shatters in PvE. The reason they’re bad is simply that they don’t do nearly as much sustained damage as phantasms do. If through some unknown series of buffs this ceases to be the case, then they’ll be perfectly viable.

One inherent issue with shatters is that they die too easily from AOE which eliminates your ability to generate enough shatter fodder for even mediocre damage in these types of encounters.

This isn’t even remotely true. Phantasms also die in 1 shot from any mob in a dungeon, so there’s no difference at all.

Fay.2357:

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

There’s no inherent issue with shatters in PvE. The reason they’re bad is simply that they don’t do nearly as much sustained damage as phantasms do. If through some unknown series of buffs this ceases to be the case, then they’ll be perfectly viable.

One inherent issue with shatters is that they die too easily from AOE which eliminates your ability to generate enough shatter fodder for even mediocre damage in these types of encounters.

This isn’t even remotely true. Phantasms also die in 1 shot from any mob in a dungeon, so there’s no difference at all.

You’re right so I’ll rephrase, phantasms AND shatters have always been a wonky DPS delivery method and have deep inherent flaws that keep the class always feeling hamstrung. (E.g., phantasms/shatters being ineffective in AOE situations, having phantasms be our main source of consistent DPS which encourages us to not use our main core mechanic (shatters), phantasms/shatter being tied down to individual enemies which prevent you from quickly switching dps from one target to the next, etc.)

I think the lead class designer (Robert?) is trying to address some of these issues in HoT with our new specialization traits so I guess we’ll have to wait and see if they are enough to overcome some of the core issues with our class. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), he wasn’t part of the original team that designed the class, so I do get the feeling that our class is sort of being pulled in different directions that may leave certain past design choices (confusion maybe) feeling less powerful/overlooked.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I’m hoping one day that Anet will look at our class and address the issues that plague the foundation of this class. Until that happens, we may be just getting bandaid “fixes” from one patch/expansion to the next.

Fay.2357:

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

There’s no inherent issue with shatters in PvE. The reason they’re bad is simply that they don’t do nearly as much sustained damage as phantasms do. If through some unknown series of buffs this ceases to be the case, then they’ll be perfectly viable.

One inherent issue with shatters is that they die too easily from AOE which eliminates your ability to generate enough shatter fodder for even mediocre damage in these types of encounters.

This isn’t even remotely true. Phantasms also die in 1 shot from any mob in a dungeon, so there’s no difference at all.

I know they are weak but I won’t say they are extreme as people say if you trait and use the signt. Yes you will lose good traits and utility which will affect your DPS and game play.

While soloing AC facing the twins, I used the defender to tank one while I DPS the other.

Maybe in higher dungeon it might not work. But the clone did hold it own against one of the twin.

Leodon.1564:

You’re right so I’ll rephrase, phantasms AND shatters have always been a wonky DPS delivery method and have deep inherent flaws that keep the class always feeling hamstrung. (E.g., phantasms/shatters being ineffective in AOE situations, having phantasms be our main source of consistent DPS which encourages us to not use our main core mechanic (shatters), phantasms/shatter being tied down to individual enemies which prevent you from quickly switching dps from one target to the next, etc.)

Honestly, most of these problems don’t exist for a shatter build. Phantasms, by their nature, are sustained dps. This means you want to put them up and keep them up, and this takes time and effort for each mob. With shatters, you just pop up a couple clones and then explode them. It takes very little time between DE and weapon skills, and doesn’t give them a lot of chance to be smushed by aoes.

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

I know they are weak but I won’t say they are extreme as people say if you trait and use the signt. Yes you will lose good traits and utility which will affect your DPS and game play.

While soloing AC facing the twins, I used the defender to tank one while I DPS the other.

Maybe in higher dungeon it might not work. But the clone did hold it own against one of the twin.

So a couple things. One, you’ve mentioned twins, which means you’re talking about AC story mode. The bosses in that dungeon do minimal damage.

That being said…yes, our highest hp phantasm (the defender has several times higher hp than any other phantasm) traited and with the signet will have enough hp to tank a couple hits. That’s…hardly a useful thing in most situations.

Fay.2357:

Phantasms, by their nature, are sustained dps. This means you want to put them up and keep them up, and this takes time and effort for each mob. With shatters, you just pop up a couple clones and then explode them. It takes very little time between DE and weapon skills, and doesn’t give them a lot of chance to be smushed by aoes.

You’re phrasing it like there is no problem but that is the problem. Too much of our DPS is dependent on class abilities (phantasms/shatters) that are inflexible and have a wide margin for how effective they are depending on the situation.

You mention that you need to keep phantasms up for each mob and that is the nature of our sustained DPS. You are ok with a DPS delivery method that encourages you to not use your class mechanic in order to do the most consistent DPS (which isn’t that great to begin with) and varies greatly depending on how many phantasms you can maintain? How much control do you have in keeping your Phantasms alive?

For shatters, you mentioned that your clones don’t have much chance to be smushed and that is true for small engagements but can you say that your statement remains true as the engagement scales bigger?

As long as our DPS is tied down to a method that we have no real control over and can be neutralized by something as simple as AOE, the strength of our class will vary greatly from encounter to encounter which is an inherent design flaw to me.

With the new trait system you might see dd ele inspired shatter builds supporting your group with condition clears and healing while spiking the enemy. I dont believe this playstyle to be effective in the current state of pve butwe really dont know what anet has in store for us when they harp on about challenging group content. Hopefully we find out soon.

What attracts me to this game is not pve however, I find gw2 pve content to be boring which is a product of many things. But im still interested to see what they have to bring to this game mode.

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

Phantasms, by their nature, are sustained dps. This means you want to put them up and keep them up, and this takes time and effort for each mob. With shatters, you just pop up a couple clones and then explode them. It takes very little time between DE and weapon skills, and doesn’t give them a lot of chance to be smushed by aoes.

You’re phrasing it like there is no problem but that is the problem. Too much of our DPS is dependent on class abilities (phantasms/shatters) that are inflexible and have a wide margin for how effective they are depending on the situation.

You mention that you need to keep phantasms up for each mob and that is the nature of our sustained DPS. You are ok with a DPS delivery method that encourages you to not use your class mechanic in order to do the most consistent DPS (which isn’t that great to begin with) and varies greatly depending on how many phantasms you can maintain? How much control do you have in keeping your Phantasms alive?

For shatters, you mentioned that your clones don’t have much chance to be smushed and that is true for small engagements but can you say that your statement remains true as the engagement scales bigger?

As long as our DPS is tied down to a method that we have no real control over and can be neutralized by something as simple as AOE, the strength of our class will vary greatly from encounter to encounter which is an inherent design flaw to me.

a class not being strong at all encounters is a design flaw?

maybe we should just delete all of the classes and make one called “fighter” which does everything, then we can solve this design flaw.

maha.7902:

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

Phantasms, by their nature, are sustained dps. This means you want to put them up and keep them up, and this takes time and effort for each mob. With shatters, you just pop up a couple clones and then explode them. It takes very little time between DE and weapon skills, and doesn’t give them a lot of chance to be smushed by aoes.

You’re phrasing it like there is no problem but that is the problem. Too much of our DPS is dependent on class abilities (phantasms/shatters) that are inflexible and have a wide margin for how effective they are depending on the situation.

You mention that you need to keep phantasms up for each mob and that is the nature of our sustained DPS. You are ok with a DPS delivery method that encourages you to not use your class mechanic in order to do the most consistent DPS (which isn’t that great to begin with) and varies greatly depending on how many phantasms you can maintain? How much control do you have in keeping your Phantasms alive?

For shatters, you mentioned that your clones don’t have much chance to be smushed and that is true for small engagements but can you say that your statement remains true as the engagement scales bigger?

As long as our DPS is tied down to a method that we have no real control over and can be neutralized by something as simple as AOE, the strength of our class will vary greatly from encounter to encounter which is an inherent design flaw to me.

a class not being strong at all encounters is a design flaw?

maybe we should just delete all of the classes and make one called “fighter” which does everything, then we can solve this design flaw.

I put this to you. Name one game mode where warrior, ele or guardian are not valued.

I really hope to see shatter builds better in PvE. I hate that even at our best our dps is 30% lower then the top class and 10% lower then the average.

I agree that in PvE we are punished for doing stuff. Get your three Phantasms on the field n hold your breath n hope that they don’t die before you can resummon them, oh yea, don’t use that last mantra charge either…

They just need to create more enemies with short openings either as a part of the enemy’s rotation or as a trigger-able event. Basically the beetles in Dry Top.

Imo a good solution would be phantasms/clones not being killed by aoe attacks.

In PvE you would know you can shatter and resummon when cooldowns are ready without having to worry about keeping cooldowns ready for death by aoe.

In PvP it would mean choosing between taking out a clone/phantasm while the mesmer beats on you or leaving it and focusing on the mesmer, meaning you take free damage from the illusion and leave yourself open to shatters.

Not sure if this can work with how nearly all melee attacks are aoe, maybe make it so an illusion can only be hit by a person if they are the actual target, ground aoe’s still dont affect them but melee/passive cleave abilities only work while being targetted?

At the end of the day, mesmers cannot use shatters often, which is ridiculous as that is our core mechanic. Any build we put together should incorporate shatters, the only way this is feasible is by making our illusions much more difficult to kill.

maha.7902:

a class not being strong at all encounters is a design flaw?

maybe we should just delete all of the classes and make one called “fighter” which does everything, then we can solve this design flaw.

I did not say that a class had to be strong at all encounters nor is that what I meant. I am all for maintaining class differences but things are relative and most other classes (I’m excluding Necros as I hear they are in a similar boat as ours) have a much better ability to perform reasonably well in a variety of encounters. Mesmers require certain specific variables to be present in order to perform reasonably well and fall off dramatically when those variables are not met.

1) AOE hard counters the primary source of our damage (shatters/phantasms) and AOE is abundant in this game.

2) Mesmer phantasms can be compared to Ranger pets except our phantasms account for a larger portion of our total dps, cannot be controlled, dies after the initial target dies, and requires a significant ramp up time before max DPS is achieved. Rangers complain about their pets which I don’t necessarily agree with (I play Ranger also) but imagine if their pets acted like our phantasms? As a mesmer, we have very little control or options in overcoming the limitations of our phantasms which so heavily accounts for our total DPS. Imo, it is almost always a bad design choice to tie in a classes DPS potential to a pet AI (especially so when the AI is poor and cannot be controlled.)

As a Ranger, I can expect to perform at a consistent and reasonable level in a variety of encounters. I have options available that allow me to adapt on the fly as the situation changes. I don’t have these options as a Mesmer.

Shatter I personally like in PvE. If built right you can give yourself CRAZY amounts of might which is good for boss fights.

CobraPolo.1723:

Shatter I personally like in PvE. If built right you can give yourself CRAZY amounts of might which is good for boss fights.

Shatter is bad in PvE for anything outside of map completion. Yeah, you can give yourself some ok might (but less than an ele/warrior/engineer can), and you’ll still do even worse damage than a phantasm build will. If you’re using shatter, you’re making an enormous mistake.

I think the main thing you need to do to make shatter more useful in srs-bsns PvE is to move more sustained DPS off of the phantasms and into the regular attacks themselves. Then it’d be more like balancing one kind of utility (from keeping phantasms up; e.g. reflects or keeping a control condition on your target) vs. another (from shattering; e.g. group condi clearing or boon rips) — not necessarily the most engaging gameplay since there will be lots of times when one is obviously superior to the other, but more flexible and less punishing than what we have now.

The comparison to ranger DPS is pretty apt here.

Fay.2357:

CobraPolo.1723:

Shatter I personally like in PvE. If built right you can give yourself CRAZY amounts of might which is good for boss fights.

If you’re using shatter, you’re making an enormous mistake.

I like, i don’t play :p

def not a mesmer noob, been playing it since day 2.

CobraPolo.1723:

Fay.2357:

CobraPolo.1723:

Shatter I personally like in PvE. If built right you can give yourself CRAZY amounts of might which is good for boss fights.

If you’re using shatter, you’re making an enormous mistake.

I like, i don’t play :p

def not a mesmer noob, been playing it since day 2.

time played doesn’t mean anything

i have an rl friend who is in silver 4 in league and was silver the past two seasons while i hit plat 5 a couple days ago when i’ve only been playing for like 4 months

some people just never learn or never bother to learn

Would be nice, I really think it’s fine regardless and frankly the idea of worrying about the meta in the current state of PvE is silly.

Shatter is getting nice additions with specializations so maybe?

“Viability” has always been somewhat based on damage… But the thing is even as our strongest meta builds we still fall short of other classes especially when illusions get one hit regardless of spec. Which means we’re for a major part utility, and I think we long as we continue to bring the needed utilities we should be viable regardless of build.

But it would be super nice to do good damage.

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

Leodon.1564:

Fay.2357:

There’s no inherent issue with shatters in PvE. The reason they’re bad is simply that they don’t do nearly as much sustained damage as phantasms do. If through some unknown series of buffs this ceases to be the case, then they’ll be perfectly viable.

One inherent issue with shatters is that they die too easily from AOE which eliminates your ability to generate enough shatter fodder for even mediocre damage in these types of encounters.

This isn’t even remotely true. Phantasms also die in 1 shot from any mob in a dungeon, so there’s no difference at all.

You’re right so I’ll rephrase, phantasms AND shatters have always been a wonky DPS delivery method and have deep inherent flaws that keep the class always feeling hamstrung. (E.g., phantasms/shatters being ineffective in AOE situations, having phantasms be our main source of consistent DPS which encourages us to not use our main core mechanic (shatters), phantasms/shatter being tied down to individual enemies which prevent you from quickly switching dps from one target to the next, etc.)

I think the lead class designer (Robert?) is trying to address some of these issues in HoT with our new specialization traits so I guess we’ll have to wait and see if they are enough to overcome some of the core issues with our class. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), he wasn’t part of the original team that designed the class, so I do get the feeling that our class is sort of being pulled in different directions that may leave certain past design choices (confusion maybe) feeling less powerful/overlooked.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I’m hoping one day that Anet will look at our class and address the issues that plague the foundation of this class. Until that happens, we may be just getting bandaid “fixes” from one patch/expansion to the next.

I realize that many of you would consider it non-ideal, but there are ways to extend phantasm survivability:

Inspiration V (persisting images): +20% phantasm health
Signet of Illusions: Illusion Health +50%
Dueling XIII: among other things, newly summoned phantasms gain 1s distortion
Phantasmal Defender: splits damage between allies and itself (this can be a lot o fun when combined with inspiration’s minor adept trait vengeful images, as it triggers the retaliation off of the defender for each split in addition to the original target; also note the defender has much higher health than other illusions)

Am I saying this is a VIABLE build? No. I haven’t really tried it. But this combination of items would increase phantasm survivability, and they would surely get at least one attack off.

Now with that in mind, I have two comments concerning using illusions in dungeons. I do COE a lot. I LOVE that dungeon. I use phantasms AND shatters all the time in there and they do just fine; for example, stacking against Subject Alpha, my illusions survive a surprisingly long time. I’m not sure why, actually, I expect them to die much faster than they do. They don’t survive the entire fight, but they often survive through at least one aoe and still be able to attack.

Honestly considering how powerful his aoes are it shocks me, and has made me wonder if there was a bug or something that was letting them survive.

As for shatters, I use them… as a supplimentary rather than a primary attack. My weapon sets in COE tends to be sword/sword + staff, and I have among other traits Blade Training, Chaotic Dampening, deceptive evasion, and Illusionary Celerity, giving me a 40% recharge bonus on my illusions. I also have mirror images and decoy. My shatters dont do a lot of damage individually, but I can generate many illusions over the battle. I do “other stuff” and shatter for supplimental damage… and against Subject Alpha, I can save some dodges by using blurred frenzy and distortion, giving me more time to recharge endurance when I need to, and pumping out shatters amongst my other attacks.

More of sustained minor shatters than massive dps spike shatters. But like I said, with this build its intended to be a supplimental attack rather than the primary one, but it also allows me to do more long term shattering when there are lots of weenies rather than a few hideously strong mobs too.

Asdrubael.8631:

Imo a good solution would be phantasms/clones not being killed by aoe attacks.

All that’d do is utterly cement Phantasm builds as the premier PvE specs. That’s their one flaw right now.

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly considering how powerful his aoes are it shocks me, and has made me wonder if there was a bug or something that was letting them survive.

Phantasms are immune to some of his AoE attacks.

Morfedel.4165:

My weapon sets in COE tends to be sword/sword + staff, and I have among other traits Blade Training, Chaotic Dampening, deceptive evasion, and Illusionary Celerity, giving me a 40% recharge bonus on my illusions

That’s just terrible. Please don’t run Staff nor Chaotic Dampening in CoE, our dps is already at all time low and you’re making it even lower with shatters, and then you’re further gimping it by wasting 4 points into a useless line and a useless trait. Also, your goal is to maintain 3 phantasms so dump Deceptive Evasion, it will only prevent you from achieving that goal every time you dodge, and in CoE you will dodge a lot.

It saddens me seeing people run complete crap and think it’s actually good.

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly considering how powerful his aoes are it shocks me, and has made me wonder if there was a bug or something that was letting them survive.

Phantasms are immune to some of his AoE attacks.

Morfedel.4165:

My weapon sets in COE tends to be sword/sword + staff, and I have among other traits Blade Training, Chaotic Dampening, deceptive evasion, and Illusionary Celerity, giving me a 40% recharge bonus on my illusions

That’s just terrible. Please don’t run Staff nor Chaotic Dampening in CoE, our dps is already at all time low and you’re making it even lower with shatters, and then you’re further gimping it by wasting 4 points into a useless line and a useless trait. Also, your goal is to maintain 3 phantasms so dump Deceptive Evasion, it will only prevent you from achieving that goal every time you dodge, and in CoE you will dodge a lot.

It saddens me seeing people run complete crap and think it’s actually good.

You know, that’s funny. That you think you know everything, that is. I didn’t say I was dedicated to using phantasms OR shatters. Its a Jack of all trades build designed to do va little bit of all kinds of things. It does just fine in coe.

It also does Pretty good in pvp. So-so in wvw.

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

Edit: didn’t know about the aoe immunity, good to know.

Morfedel.4165:

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly considering how powerful his aoes are it shocks me, and has made me wonder if there was a bug or something that was letting them survive.

Phantasms are immune to some of his AoE attacks.

Morfedel.4165:

My weapon sets in COE tends to be sword/sword + staff, and I have among other traits Blade Training, Chaotic Dampening, deceptive evasion, and Illusionary Celerity, giving me a 40% recharge bonus on my illusions

That’s just terrible. Please don’t run Staff nor Chaotic Dampening in CoE, our dps is already at all time low and you’re making it even lower with shatters, and then you’re further gimping it by wasting 4 points into a useless line and a useless trait. Also, your goal is to maintain 3 phantasms so dump Deceptive Evasion, it will only prevent you from achieving that goal every time you dodge, and in CoE you will dodge a lot.

It saddens me seeing people run complete crap and think it’s actually good.

You know, that’s funny. That you think you know everything, that is. I didn’t say I was dedicated to using phantasms OR shatters. Its a Jack of all trades build designed to do va little bit of all kinds of things. It does just fine in coe.

It also does Pretty good in pvp. So-so in wvw.

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Your build is barely not crap at everything, and good at nothing. I guess if you’re happy with being barely not crap at everything you do, that’s fine. Most of us like to strive to be just a bit better than that though.

It’s amusing that you’re trying to argue PvE effectiveness with Frifoxy though. He, better than anyone, can tell you whether your build is good or not.

As has been said so many times before anything “works” in PvE. The mere fact that it works doesn’t mean it works well, and doesn’t mean you’re anything other than useless dead weight being carried on a team.

Fay.2357:

Morfedel.4165:

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly considering how powerful his aoes are it shocks me, and has made me wonder if there was a bug or something that was letting them survive.

Phantasms are immune to some of his AoE attacks.

Morfedel.4165:

My weapon sets in COE tends to be sword/sword + staff, and I have among other traits Blade Training, Chaotic Dampening, deceptive evasion, and Illusionary Celerity, giving me a 40% recharge bonus on my illusions

That’s just terrible. Please don’t run Staff nor Chaotic Dampening in CoE, our dps is already at all time low and you’re making it even lower with shatters, and then you’re further gimping it by wasting 4 points into a useless line and a useless trait. Also, your goal is to maintain 3 phantasms so dump Deceptive Evasion, it will only prevent you from achieving that goal every time you dodge, and in CoE you will dodge a lot.

It saddens me seeing people run complete crap and think it’s actually good.

You know, that’s funny. That you think you know everything, that is. I didn’t say I was dedicated to using phantasms OR shatters. Its a Jack of all trades build designed to do va little bit of all kinds of things. It does just fine in coe.

It also does Pretty good in pvp. So-so in wvw.

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Your build is barely not crap at everything, and good at nothing. I guess if you’re happy with being barely not crap at everything you do, that’s fine. Most of us like to strive to be just a bit better than that though.

It’s amusing that you’re trying to argue PvE effectiveness with Frifoxy though. He, better than anyone, can tell you whether your build is good or not.

As has been said so many times before anything “works” in PvE. The mere fact that it works doesn’t mean it works well, and doesn’t mean you’re anything other than useless dead weight being carried on a team.

You’re probably one of those zerker only elitists too.

I always find it amusing that because some names are more well known than others it assistant means they must know better.

Friend of mine was in a group like you Two. Elitist THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY types. In v argh. Zerkers, dps masters etc. He asked me to join because he was sick of their attitudesand wanted me to show them up.

Yes my build does not maximize dps, but dps isn’t everything. Master of none also correct. What it gives me is expanded options.

My Arah build is a little different but still based off options rather than dps.

I love watching when something goes wrong and all the zerkers die. I usually have to break combat, step back and wait for the rest to come back.

That last time in Arah, when we ran through one of the running sections, I got through and watched them struggle. Good players n but having a bad day. I didn’t have an issue because I had more survivability. I ended up making ice cream and coffee while waiting on them.

You can go around tossing names all you want. Means nothing. There are lots of players who don’t even comeon the forums etc but are very excellent players.

Means nothing. My builds have been effective in actual play. I’ve outperformed dps builds in pve. I’ve bested dps builds in pvp. I’m not saying I’m the best player ever. I’m saying there is more than one way to skin a cat, and claiming there is only ONE TRUE WAY is arrogant, ignorant, hide-bound and close-minded.

Morfedel.4165:

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

“Success” is only relative to your experience. You may think you’re successful where in fact quite below average. This is where those with more experience come in and give you a much more realistic perspective of your “success”.

I used to ran shatters in dungeons, extensively, and know exactly what it’s capable of:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTiXuEfk1qs
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92-8kCxprcc

Once I got past my shatter-fetish I experimented with phantasm builds and came to a definitive conclusion that not only my DPS became much higher but I also actually was more useful too. Stability, interrupts, condi clears, boon strips, mob control, all were simply better with a proper phantasm build. No matter how many times I go back to shatter, it simply does not match phantasm builds.

If you still have doubts, feel free to check these out:
- CoE
- Mes
- my sig

I love watching when something goes wrong and all the zerkers die. I usually have to break combat, step back and wait for the rest to come back.

Been there, done that. Plenty of time, CoE, Arah, you name it. All with a proper meta build. There is a reason why there are “meta” builds, and that’s because they have proven themselves to be VERY effective, both in utility AND top dps.

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

“Success” is only relative to your experience. You may think you’re successful where in fact quite below average. This is where those with more experience come in and give you a much more realistic perspective of your “success”.

I used to ran shatters in dungeons, extensively, and know exactly what it’s capable of:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTiXuEfk1qs
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92-8kCxprcc

Once I got past my shatter-fetish I experimented with phantasm builds and came to a definitive conclusion that not only my DPS became much higher but I also actually was more useful too. Stability, interrupts, condi clears, boon strips, mob control, all were simply better with a proper phantasm build. No matter how many times I go back to shatter, it simply does not match phantasm builds.

If you still have doubts, feel free to check these out:
- CoE
- Mes
- my sig

People with more experience? I’ve been playing since open world beta 2. With the exception of one month I’ve played nearly every day since.

More experience. Snort.

Yes. Been playing since the first beta:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDL_8pMtUeA (Aug 2012)

And main-ing mesmer since start of 2013, playing nearly daily:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpR2sN_9j_w

So yes, I’d like to think I do have quite good amount of experience behind my back.

But anyways, this is becoming a big kitten contest with no actual discussion. Don’t know why I even bother after all these years of the same…

Morfedel.4165:

Yes my build does not maximize dps, but dps isn’t everything.

Actually, it is. If you don’t bring dps, you’re effectively useless. So what if you’re surviving? You’re not contributing to the party. Additionally, there’s absolutely no reason to use anything other than a full dps build if you’re a good player. I haven’t done any PvP in less than full zerk and a zerk damage build in years. I rarely die in dungeons, because I know how the fights work, and I’m good at this game. If you’re not as good as I am, then you can simply substitute knights/cavs gear for zerker to gain enhanced survivability without gimping yourself with an awful build.

Morfedel.4165:

Master of none also correct. What it gives me is expanded options.

No, it means you’re not proactive enough to change your build based on the game type you’re playing (which takes all of 15 seconds) and would rather use a build that isn’t good in any of them if it means it’s just passable in all of them.

Morfedel.4165:

My Arah build is a little different but still based off options rather than dps.

What options? Not dpsing and letting your team do all the work? A full zerker build can have all of the utility it’s possible to need in a dungeon. You can bring reflects, stability, condition removal, and boon strip all without losing damage. Using a low dps build and saying ‘oh, but it gives me more options’ is simply flat out false.

Morfedel.4165:

I love watching when something goes wrong and all the zerkers die. I usually have to break combat, step back and wait for the rest to come back.

Maybe if you were contributing to dps with the rest of your party, the fight wouldn’t have gone wrong because the boss would have been dead.

Morfedel.4165:

That last time in Arah, when we ran through one of the running sections, I got through and watched them struggle. Good players n but having a bad day. I didn’t have an issue because I had more survivability. I ended up making ice cream and coffee while waiting on them.

Anecdotes like this are wonderful, because they mean nothing. ‘Oh, I was in this party with zerkers and they all died over and over in a running section, but I was in tank gear so I made it fine’. Watch, I can do it too:

‘Almost every Arah I’ve ever run has been in a party of full zerkers, but because we’re not bad, nobody dies when we run.’

Morfedel.4165:

I’ve outperformed dps builds in pve.

No you haven’t. Outperforming a build in PvE means you did more damage than it. Your build doesn’t do good damage, and so it definitionally can not outperform a dps build.

Morfedel.4165:

I’ve bested dps builds in pvp.

PvP is an entirely different beast. That being said, your build sounds like a shantasm build from the way you described playing it. Those have been tried. They’ve also been abandoned because they’re not good. I could beat people with a 2/2/2/2/2 build in PvP. Does that mean it’s a good build? Of course not, it just means that the people I’m fighting are bad.

Morfedel.4165:

I’m saying there is more than one way to skin a cat, and claiming there is only ONE TRUE WAY is arrogant, ignorant, hide-bound and close-minded.

This is completely wrong. There absolutely is an optimal way to play in PvE. No amount of whining is going to change that. The way you’re playing is sub-optimal, also known as worse.

Now, as I’ve said before, I honestly have no personal problem with people that like to use sub-optimal builds in PvE. It’s your choice, do what you want. What I have a problem with is when people like you come onto the forums and try to tell everyone that your sub-optimal build is actually great, when it’s not. That’s being intentionally misleading and is doing a disservice to those who come to the forums to learn how to play better.

frifoxy.6014:

Morfedel.4165:

I just love it when someone comes along to say a build is crap when the other person is having success with it n like they know everything. Makes me lol :-)

“Success” is only relative to your experience. You may think you’re successful where in fact quite below average. This is where those with more experience come in and give you a much more realistic perspective of your “success”.

I used to ran shatters in dungeons, extensively, and know exactly what it’s capable of:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTiXuEfk1qs
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92-8kCxprcc

Once I got past my shatter-fetish I experimented with phantasm builds and came to a definitive conclusion that not only my DPS became much higher but I also actually was more useful too. Stability, interrupts, condi clears, boon strips, mob control, all were simply better with a proper phantasm build. No matter how many times I go back to shatter, it simply does not match phantasm builds.

If you still have doubts, feel free to check these out:
- CoE
- Mes
- my sig

I love watching when something goes wrong and all the zerkers die. I usually have to break combat, step back and wait for the rest to come back.

Been there, done that. Plenty of time, CoE, Arah, you name it. All with a proper meta build. There is a reason why there are “meta” builds, and that’s because they have proven themselves to be VERY effective, both in utility AND top dps.

Your experience being different from mine doesn’t make yours right and mine wrong. Again that’s arrogant.

And I wasn’t saying phantasm builds don’t work. I was saying dps isn’t the only part of the game, there are other things that can be important too.

I’m done arguing for now, have to pick up my kids from my ex-wife’s. I’ll be back in a day or so.

i like the part where you started throwing around “zerker elitists” and “dead zerkers on the floor” comments, it was like the icing on the bhb cake.

how about if i told you there are a lot of dungeon runners who run full glass gear and solo encounters when their soldier/knight/cleric/whatever team mates die?

and time played means absolutely nothing experience-wise, i barely touch mesmer, let alone the game anymore and i’m still probably better than 95% of this game’s useless mesmers running their troll builds.

maha.7902:

CobraPolo.1723:

Fay.2357:

CobraPolo.1723:

Shatter I personally like in PvE. If built right you can give yourself CRAZY amounts of might which is good for boss fights.

If you’re using shatter, you’re making an enormous mistake.

I like, i don’t play :p

def not a mesmer noob, been playing it since day 2.

time played doesn’t mean anything

i have an rl friend who is in silver 4 in league and was silver the past two seasons while i hit plat 5 a couple days ago when i’ve only been playing for like 4 months

some people just never learn or never bother to learn

so your calling me a noob just because I like something? lol
or was I suppose to bow down to you oh holy one because you hit platinum in 5 days? lol.

i don’t think you read my post properly

CobraPolo.1723:

so your calling me a noob just because I like something? lol
or was I suppose to bow down to you oh holy one because you hit platinum in 5 days? lol.

To spell it out (irony and all) more clearly, s/he is saying that people learn at different rates and have a different maximum possible. I know a guy with one hand, he would never be able to be as good at this game as a 14 yr old with two hands and a 2 month summer break and few real life commitments. Even if the one handed guy played for 2 years.

Some people see concepts and things about this game much faster and clearer than others, could be experience with similar games, concepts or they got an ideafrom someone earlier.

I think one of the biggest things holding most people back is their egos…and having only one hand with that guy I know.

Suboptimal build bickering aside, shatter builds won’t be viable in dungeons unless phantasm builds are so weak that shattering is our only option. Now I do think that, with chronomancer, being able to shatter our phantasms without them dying will be very helpful. That, however, doesn’t make it a “shatter” build, just a regular phantasm build that can shatter for extra DPS.

Capricorn XI.4390:

Suboptimal build bickering aside, shatter builds won’t be viable in dungeons unless phantasm builds are so weak that shattering is our only option.

This isn’t really true though. As I said in the second response to this thread, if, through some series of undetermined buffs, shatter damage is buffed enough that it surpasses what a phantasm build can do, then it would be quite viable.

If by some chance 80%-100% alacrity (+ quickness or chronophantasma) in 6/6/0/0/0/6 allows mesmer to continuously shatter and generate enough iSwordman/iDuelists……….that’ll probably reach around 2 phantasm’s sustain damage on pure phantasm build, but hard math is needed.

Regardless it’ll be fun to type a lot more buttons like a maniac, a good change from 1112111 sword haha.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

If by some chance 80%-100% alacrity (+ quickness or chronophantasma) in 6/6/0/0/0/6 allows mesmer to continuously shatter and generate enough iSwordman/iDuelists……….that’ll probably reach around 2 phantasm’s sustain damage on pure phantasm build, but hard math is needed.

Regardless it’ll be fun to type a lot more buttons like a maniac, a good change from 1112111 sword haha.

Yeah, that seems like it would be really fun to play, I’d do it xD

Oh my sweet sweet Pyro. Sweet darling Pyro. Viable and optimal are not the same word. Please stop confusing them. That goes for all of you.

• Learn what words mean.
• Stop assuming without valid textual evidence.
• Stop responding to singular untruths if you won’t comment also on the whole of the argument. (it stagnates the debate)

Edit: here is an example of correct uses of viable and optimal.
Is running shatter in pve viable: yes it will just be harder.
Is it optimal: no it is not, but why would you need to care about optimal in non competitive environments.

Really not that hard people.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Oh my sweet sweet Pyro. Sweet darling Pyro. Viable and optimal are not the same word. Please stop confusing them. That goes for all of you.

• Learn what words mean.
• Stop assuming without valid textual evidence.
• Stop responding to singular untruths if you won’t comment also on the whole of the argument. (it stagnates the debate)

Is running shatter in pve viable: yes it will just be harder.
Is it optimal: no it is not, but why would you need to care about optimal in non competitive environments.

Really not that hard people.

Meh, I was responding in general to the spirit of the original question, not the letter.

Is shatter viable? Yes. Is it optimal? No. Was the original poster asking whether shatter is possible to run in PvE? No, they were asking about whether it’ll ever be a good and proper choice to do.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Oh my sweet sweet Pyro. Sweet darling Pyro. Viable and optimal are not the same word. Please stop confusing them. That goes for all of you.

• Learn what words mean.
• Stop assuming without valid textual evidence.
• Stop responding to singular untruths if you won’t comment also on the whole of the argument. (it stagnates the debate)

Is running shatter in pve viable: yes it will just be harder.
Is it optimal: no it is not, but why would you need to care about optimal in non competitive environments.

Really not that hard people.

Meh, I was responding in general to the spirit of the original question, not the letter.

Is shatter viable? Yes. Is it optimal? No. Was the original poster asking whether shatter is possible to run in PvE? No, they were asking about whether it’ll ever be a good and proper choice to do.

Ahgghhghhghhhhhhhhh. That is an explanation of what those words mean. I should have labeled it as an example. Regardless the title has an incorrect conception of the word viable. And you clearly still do.

Stop applying adjectives like good and proper to viable. You are talking about optimal use the word optimal. The poster uses the phrase “more viable”. More viable does not definitely mean optimal, they could just be asking if it’s easier to do in a future patch. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Funny you mention about viable and optimal. In my last mmo (STO) the difference in dps between an optimal group and pugs was by a factor of anywhere between 10 and 100. No, I’m not joking, pugs were that bad and the (pay to win) power creep was that bad.

One day I got 4 of us for their version of a dungeon and needed a 5th so grabbed a pug figuring they’ll just be amazed by how fast it all died. Well, we killed everything really fast, the pug had trouble even getting to stuff but we saw him shooting at things. Everything died, boss spawned and we nuked it, dungeon ended and then in chat we saw “wuuuut!!”

The pug didn’t get the reward. The pug did so little damage as a percentage of total damage he was deemed to have not done enough to get credit for even being there.

So who knows, maybe in some horrifyingly scary way the OP is actually meaning they use a shatter build and never manage to get credit for killing stuff.

P.S. I am half joking with that last sentence but maybe there are people playing Mesmer that are in that situation where they barely get loot because of bad tagging.