Guild Wars 2

I remember using them as a power reaper just as a diversion when I was fighting some fotm bosses and they stayed alive long enough that I was able to drop another lich mark, maybe there is more to them than we think.

Brayzz.6524:

I can confirm ~12k DPS with my condi Reaper and it is much more better than a power Reaper. With Ranger Sun Spirit(yes it is bugged but who cares, icebow was bugged too) I can reach easily over 15k dps in Phase 1 ,after that it drops because of Boss split mechanics. But I can confirm ~ 20k-25k DPS spikes. It is not the whole time, but Im still doing my 12k dps after that burst dmg.

Look on the 2nd screen. Im not using Dhummfire Reaper and no capped Mightstacks in a random Raid. Im already at 20k “burst” DPS and Soul Spiral CD is rdy with only 20 Might stacks, Soul Spiral will push my DPS in a fire field over 25k “burst” dps.

p.s: Im 99% sure CondiReaper > Gravedigger spam. Power necro is ok for tanking.

Where is your burn coming from if you aren’t using Dhummfire? 6k burn is higher than even a Dhummfire spec can reach with no bleed.

I have to be honest I main necro, Guardian and reaper and it seems like I’m kitten out of luck on all 3 of these as far as raiding goes, seems every other profession beats my 3 on something. I did main an engi but found the rotation boggling.

Gorseval down with me on reaper dps tank. :P

Power again.

Really good at locking down the elites. But its damage drops a ton when noone is buffing you or providing vuln. Also those elites pulse weakness. So im not surprised a condi build deals with that part better.

spoj.9672:

Gorseval down with me on reaper dps tank. :P

Power again.

I assume you used top top mid, mid bot top and top bot top (or mid)? For Spite/BM/Reaper respectively. Along with Toughness food, of course.

Oh and of course grats on the kill!

I used full dps traits this time. With toughness food again yeah. So top/top/mid, mid/bot/top and mid/bot/mid. Double wells and signet of spite.

The pressure is higher but you can dodge most of his attacks and the enrage timer is a lot more strict. So dps made sense given i didnt actually need rise or any extra sustain over blood and the occasional dagger 2 while pulling to the edge.

Also Grasping darkness is amazingly good on the spirits when pulling him to the wall.

spoj.9672:

I used full dps traits this time. With toughness food again yeah. So top/top/mid, mid/bot/top and mid/bot/mid. Double wells and signet of spite.

The pressure is higher but you can dodge most of his attacks and the enrage timer is a lot more strict. So dps made sense given i didnt actually need rise or any extra sustain over blood and the occasional dagger 2 while pulling to the edge.

Also Grasping darkness is amazingly good on the spirits when pulling him to the wall.

I see, I’ll keep that in mind when we finally proceed through the raid. Thanks.

Lynnie.7213:

Agree with you on condi reaper > power reaper, anytime.
But about your damage, seems pretty good if you can maintain that. For how long you can keep the jagged horrors alive? And after they die how much your dps suffer? What is the average there?

As you can see Lich is on cooldown 105sec. They live easily 180sec than you can spawn them again(till split phase, they die in split phase because of no heals). They take 95% less dmg and with bloodmagic they lifesteal a lot.

Brayzz.6524:

Lynnie.7213:

Agree with you on condi reaper > power reaper, anytime.
But about your damage, seems pretty good if you can maintain that. For how long you can keep the jagged horrors alive? And after they die how much your dps suffer? What is the average there?

As you can see Lich is on cooldown 105sec. They live easily 180sec than you can spawn them again(till split phase, they die in split phase because of no heals). They take 95% less dmg and with bloodmagic they lifesteal a lot.

The raid healer heals affect them? If so i can imagine them not dying until split phase.
Whats your dps without the minions? Average please.

So necro, specifically condi, is great for general fights static or mobile, but isn’t meta. Meta being condi engi, revenant and tempest?

Pretty much there are locked in spots for certain classes/builds, then there’s usually 2-3 spots for fill-in. From what I’ve seen so far Reaper’s taking the fill-in spots. They aren’t locked in, sadly.

Adjust.6903:

So necro, specifically condi, is great for general fights static or mobile, but isn’t meta. Meta being condi engi, revenant and tempest?

Yes, pretty much.

Necromancer condi still suffers from the PvE immunity Curse – most of Necromancer conditions is soft CC that only counts toward break bars.

People still ask me to run a condition build for corruption and think Necromancer is great at condition damage when it is really a soft CC support class, which is slightly less useless in PvE than it was.

Necromancer running condition damage is still lame. It takes too highly a tuned build to be less effective than the meta.

The only things Necromancer seems to do well are clinch-res and be half decent at multiple roles.

Darwec.3784:

They die after about 20 seconds, so you burst high bleeds but then you have cool down for 160 seconds. It’s really amazing for something like high lvl fractals where you burst dps, its astoundingly bad for raids where you have to maintain dps.

They do not die, can confirm it’s consistent. I raided tonight with Lich Form, I cast it once during the start of the fight and the minions stayed alive for a vast majority of the fight, I even had enough time to cast it again so I had 8 of them. I will always be running lich from now on unless there is some weird niche situation where I need something else.

Now that Jagged Horrors actually survive people can see how strong they are. They do a 5 sec bleed on hit that scales with the players condition damage and duration (so 10 second bleeds).

With roughly a 3 second attack rate each Horror can maintain 3 Bleeds each. That’s 15 bleeds for 5 Horrors. Fully raid buffed on a 25 vuln target those bleeds should be hitting 250+ damage a tick each so that’s what 3750 odd extra sustained DPS?

In any situation where you can keep Jagged Horror’s alive (or have things you can kill to summon them) each one will be adding 750 or so DPS as a condi.

It’s definitely made me start thinking about Death Magic more.

Altoid.9104:

Darwec.3784:

They die after about 20 seconds, so you burst high bleeds but then you have cool down for 160 seconds. It’s really amazing for something like high lvl fractals where you burst dps, its astoundingly bad for raids where you have to maintain dps.

They do not die, can confirm it’s consistent. I raided tonight with Lich Form, I cast it once during the start of the fight and the minions stayed alive for a vast majority of the fight, I even had enough time to cast it again so I had 8 of them. I will always be running lich from now on unless there is some weird niche situation where I need something else.

Golem Charge for breakbar on Gorseval is pretty important. Flesh Golem is also a consistent 1.1K+ dps.

Brayzz.6524:

I can confirm ~12k DPS with my condi Reaper and it is much more better than a power Reaper. With Ranger Sun Spirit(yes it is bugged but who cares, icebow was bugged too) I can reach easily over 15k dps in Phase 1 ,after that it drops because of Boss split mechanics. But I can confirm ~ 20k-25k DPS spikes. It is not the whole time, but Im still doing my 12k dps after that burst dmg.

Look on the 2nd screen. Im not using Dhummfire Reaper and no capped Mightstacks in a random Raid. Im already at 20k “burst” DPS and Soul Spiral CD is rdy with only 20 Might stacks, Soul Spiral will push my DPS in a fire field over 25k “burst” dps.

p.s: Im 99% sure CondiReaper > Gravedigger spam. Power necro is ok for tanking.

Can I get your build please.

I just did some raid today using Lich Form for jagged horrors bleed stack as condi reaper.
I must say i got pretty satisfied. I was getting 9k bleeds + 3k torment + 3k poison with some occasional 6k poison burst from RS4. Constant dps of 11~13k.
The minions only die in split phase and some may even live if you get some aoe heals on your pillar. In my case my transfusion + engi aoe heals in red pillar.
And since i was ranging it with scepter i got in green circle duty as well. I really enjoyed!

Yeah i tested lich and condi on Sabetha today. Im re-evaluating my opinion on condi Reaper. Its potentially very powerful. But i still wouldnt be so quick to say its better than power for the overall performance and dps in a fight.

spoj.9672:

Yeah i tested lich and condi on Sabetha today. Im re-evaluating my opinion on condi Reaper. Its potentially very powerful. But i still wouldnt be so quick to say its better than power for the overall performance and dps in a fight.

Guys!!!!
We are turning Spoj to our team, the condi team. Let’s keep up the good work!
On a serious note, how was condi reaper on sabetha? I stopped at 2nd boss because my teammates ran out of time, it was late for them. So we going to try again during this week.

Its relatively good for Sabetha. I may have to take greatsword on the secondary set just for the cannons. I did have sustain problems though. And we only had a few attempts before people had to go. So it was mostly learning the mechanics. We werent really trying for a kill at that stage.

Condi reaper is very competitive Lopez, it just took people a while to figure things out I think. For me personally the biggest mental block was to let Dhuumfire go and now my build feels a lot better. And by a lot I mean A LOT.

Also, I just had a look at reddit and found this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3tsazq/na_necromancer_raid_builds_tankpowercondi/

We might actually be a “meta class” now :^)

Yeah I was peaking at 25-30k per Gravedigger + Wells/Nightfall, Flesh Golem, Burning/Leeching Bolts and about 450 dps from Deathly Chill against Sabetha. I don’t see how condi compares.

12-14k just from conditions, no other source of damage maybe. Thats not including a sun spirit or whirling in fields constantly. That and thats a extremely consistent number you can make even during mechanic heavy fights. We’re talking about dps, not burst.

Peaks aren’t necessarily the best metric for analyzing DPS potential. I played an Arcane Mage in Cataclysm before gear and trinkets brought Arcane up to competitive tier, and you would peak extraordinarily high during burn phases. However, your DPS across the entire fight wasn’t necessarily better than Fire spec at the time. In fact, it was simulated worse.

Everything needs to be in context.

Tbh, I don’t really see the point of directly comparing power DPS Reaper to condi Reaper when comes to raid group composition without any additional information. If my group is missing a condi guy I am of no use to them if I show up with my power build just because it has “better DPS”. The two builds fulfill different roles (or three builds if you include Reaper tank) and it comes down to actual group comp to decide which one is the most appropriate to use.

On the topic of condi Reaper vs. other condi classes, I wont argue numbers with you here because I could also only deliver anecdotal reports, which is pointless imo.
I strongly advise you to get up off your butts, get that viper’s gear if you don’t already have it and test stuff for yourself Just do a couple casual practice vale guard fights with your group or go into a pug and test different builds and different classes back to back. That helped me personally a lot to get a better grasp of where I was standing DPS-wise in relation to my condi Engineer, what I was probably doing wrong with my build and how to improve upon it.

I would agree with you Lopez, if there was any in-game data whatsoever to support claims of where classes are on these bosses. All I see are videos summarized by what people saw as the highest ticks for various builds, or spreadsheets that only really start the conversation, instead of finishing it.

If ANet wants to tweak balance around PvE DPS performance, they need to provide in-game damage meters. Otherwise, everyone will just throw numbers around with no empirical evidence, which is only vaguely useful.

And if ANet’s goal is to balance fights such that you don’t need a fully optimal DPS set-up to complete the content, and each class can be part of a raid without keeping that raid from completing the content, then they may have no interest in tweaking DPS values by 1-2k in either direction.

Plus, based on the guy running Lich form for bleed ticks, I’m not sold that Condi Reaper is being pushed to its limit yet.

So, what people is trying to say with the latest coments is: Reaper/Necro IS still a waste of time and resources, does not fit any place inside the meta, does not manage to be useful, and it doesn’t matters how fun it is to play because in the end it brings nothing to the table when it comes to DPS or utility and you’ll be locked inside pug groups or kicked out of content?

…There goes my week and XP boosters for Necro…

Aldath.1275:

So, what people is trying to say with the latest coments is: Reaper/Necro IS still a waste of time and resources, does not fit any place inside the meta, does not manage to be useful, and it doesn’t matters how fun it is to play because in the end it brings nothing to the table when it comes to DPS or utility and you’ll be locked inside pug groups or kicked out of content?

…There goes my week and XP boosters for Necro…

You drew a whole lot of conclusions out of some impressions from various individuals. If you want to play Necro, play Necro and make it work. Be a tank, or push DPS to its absolute limit, pioneering the charge towards higher theoreticals.

If you want to bandwagon the flavor of the week/month/year/whatever, then use your XP boosters on Condi Engi or Power Rev, and hope balance patches don’t change your fates. I’d personally recommend making something you enjoy work over worrying about what is “best” right this moment.

People were also reporting that meter as being inaccurate since it only takes snapshots every second and spits back numbers that don’t match up with actual calcuated (via other methods like old school monster health / time) values. So I’m skeptical about using a snapshot method.

Lopez.7369:

There are in-game damage meters, and they generally prove the spreadsheets right in optimal scenarios. In those optimal scenarios, condition reaper is about 12k to 14k DPS, and condition engineer is about 25k. And power reaper is about 14k to 19k (depending on the boss’s health), and power revenant is about 25k.

We can argue about whether the optimal situation is always applicable, but there’s very little reason to think that a power revenant or even a good condition engineer would struggle much more with uptime than any reaper build. And that means condition reaper is really bad, while power reaper is better classified as below average in terms of DPS.

As for the idea that ArenaNet isn’t going to balance fights for optimal DPS, we already know they are balancing fights assuming you will optimize DPS. That’s not as noticeable on Vale Guardian, which is purposely relatively easy, but it’s definitely true for the other two bosses in the available raid wing.

They do?

Link me me some readouts that show classes doing 20k+ sustained over a long period of time.

Aldath.1275:

So, what people is trying to say with the latest coments is: Reaper/Necro IS still a waste of time and resources, does not fit any place inside the meta, does not manage to be useful, and it doesn’t matters how fun it is to play because in the end it brings nothing to the table when it comes to DPS or utility and you’ll be locked inside pug groups or kicked out of content?

…There goes my week and XP boosters for Necro…

This isn’t the first time we have had people claiming 20-25k DPS sustained before.

You know how much they were actually doing in reality in optimal situations?

9k.

Be very, very wary of the 20k+ DPS claims.

Maxzero.4032:

Lopez.7369:

There are in-game damage meters, and they generally prove the spreadsheets right in optimal scenarios. In those optimal scenarios, condition reaper is about 12k to 14k DPS, and condition engineer is about 25k. And power reaper is about 14k to 19k (depending on the boss’s health), and power revenant is about 25k.

We can argue about whether the optimal situation is always applicable, but there’s very little reason to think that a power revenant or even a good condition engineer would struggle much more with uptime than any reaper build. And that means condition reaper is really bad, while power reaper is better classified as below average in terms of DPS.

As for the idea that ArenaNet isn’t going to balance fights for optimal DPS, we already know they are balancing fights assuming you will optimize DPS. That’s not as noticeable on Vale Guardian, which is purposely relatively easy, but it’s definitely true for the other two bosses in the available raid wing.

They do?

Link me me some readouts that show classes doing 20k+ sustained over a long period of time.

Ropechef.6192:

Maxzero.4032:

Lopez.7369:

There are in-game damage meters, and they generally prove the spreadsheets right in optimal scenarios. In those optimal scenarios, condition reaper is about 12k to 14k DPS, and condition engineer is about 25k. And power reaper is about 14k to 19k (depending on the boss’s health), and power revenant is about 25k.

We can argue about whether the optimal situation is always applicable, but there’s very little reason to think that a power revenant or even a good condition engineer would struggle much more with uptime than any reaper build. And that means condition reaper is really bad, while power reaper is better classified as below average in terms of DPS.

As for the idea that ArenaNet isn’t going to balance fights for optimal DPS, we already know they are balancing fights assuming you will optimize DPS. That’s not as noticeable on Vale Guardian, which is purposely relatively easy, but it’s definitely true for the other two bosses in the available raid wing.

They do?

Link me me some readouts that show classes doing 20k+ sustained over a long period of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf8jY6OxTKk

Interesting damage meter.

Doesn’t fall when he is downed nor when he is flying away in the air. I would love to see Nemesis to do one of his calculations on the combat log to see how accurate it really is.

Maxzero.4032:

Doesn’t fall when he is downed nor when he is flying away in the air.

Literally drops from 23k to 20.7k when he flies away.

Aktium.9506:

Maxzero.4032:

Doesn’t fall when he is downed nor when he is flying away in the air.

Literally drops from 23k to 20.7k when he flies away.

No DPS for 9-10 seconds is a 2.3k DPS dip? This is 47 seconds into the fight (fight starts at 6 seconds in and he flies away at 53 seconds). Interesting math.

Let me ask you do you think he was doing 20k+ DPS over the fight? Do you think that meter was accurate?

Maxzero.4032:

Aktium.9506:

Maxzero.4032:

Doesn’t fall when he is downed nor when he is flying away in the air.

Literally drops from 23k to 20.7k when he flies away.

Let me ask you do you think he was doing 20k+ DPS over the fight? Do you think that meter was accurate?

I’d trust that damage meter more than anything Nemesis has to say on the matter.

And as far as I’m aware the meter only has functionality issues when you’re logging more than 18~ hits per second since it doesn’t read memory and works on snapshots.

Aktium.9506:

Maxzero.4032:

Aktium.9506:

Maxzero.4032:

Doesn’t fall when he is downed nor when he is flying away in the air.

Literally drops from 23k to 20.7k when he flies away.

Let me ask you do you think he was doing 20k+ DPS over the fight? Do you think that meter was accurate?

I’d trust that damage meter more than anything Nemesis has to say on the matter.

And as far as I’m aware the meter only has functionality issues when you’re logging more than 18~ hits per second since it doesn’t read memory and works on snapshots.

Do you trust it enough to not do your own calculations?

Maxzero.4032:

Aktium.9506:

Maxzero.4032:

Aktium.9506:

Maxzero.4032:

Doesn’t fall when he is downed nor when he is flying away in the air.

Literally drops from 23k to 20.7k when he flies away.

Let me ask you do you think he was doing 20k+ DPS over the fight? Do you think that meter was accurate?

I’d trust that damage meter more than anything Nemesis has to say on the matter.

And as far as I’m aware the meter only has functionality issues when you’re logging more than 18~ hits per second since it doesn’t read memory and works on snapshots.

Do you trust it enough to not do your own calculations?

kitten straight I do. I barely passed middle school math with an E.

If I calculate it I’ll end up with Potato² as my DPS.

You guys instead be happy that reaper is doing great in raids are argueing between power vs condi reaper.
And even using the “vaccum numbers” people say 25k dps…20k dps. That kitten ain’t happening and if it does happen will be for matter of seconds and then you are back to your 8~9k dps consistently.
And that dps meter… i saw the player keep seconds without hitting and the dps meter dropped like 300? Yeah, right …

What’s becoming more and more apparent as I’ve fought against gorseval with one group and sabetha with another after beating vale guard is that while raids are largely about actual player skill, the DPS gating is so ridiculously high that even me, a necromancer main, am picking up people to raid from my guild and thinking “I don’t want him, he’s a necromancer”

It’s dungeon meta all over again. For the gorseval fight, you need to bring a bunch of eles and burnzerkers for the aoe. Necro has some wells and cleave but it just isn’t good enough. For the sabetha fight, you need high damage on one or two targets, but necro can only provide mediocre damage on up to two targets.

The problem is in the way that necro is balanced around being a much more survivable class then most others, but that survivability almost never benefits you in raids particularly ones like gorseval where the key mechanic is “do enough damage to not run out of updrafts”, or sabetha’s “don’t stand in the fire, don’t get hit by the flamethrower”. Having the highest HP pool and a secondary health bar does nothing for this and certainly does nothing to offset mediocre damage.

People talking about how revenants don’t consistently hit 25k dps on raid bosses somehow seem to gloss over that necros suffer from the exact same dps losses in situations where they cannot be attacking the boss at this moment.

The only possible fix for this would be something like replacing Spite’s 3rd grandmaster (if you can’t remember what it is, don’t worry neither could I, it casts axe 3 when you enter death shroud, most irrelevant and useless thing ever) with something that removes death shroud and gives you a 30% damage bonus.

that particular meter,

all it does is screen cap your combat log, hence why it is open in the vid. it adds everything up and does math. so yes if you stop attacking stuff. its not gonna calculate anything.

all it is doing is providing a fast calculator for you.

and Spoj and Donee are right, Reaper is great in the raid scene. Relax a bit you all.

From the guilds that try to run optimal setups, they prefer engies, revs, rangers, and wars when it comes to condi/dps. It is indeed kind of sad that this is like the dungeon meta all over again. I was really hoping that this time around with our new elite spec, that we wouldn’t have to settle for less than optimal.

Nemesis.8593:

I didn’t planned on doing raids so soon… i wanted to let the dust settle and people get their builds and strategies sorted out, however a friend invited me and i accepted.

At the first boss i ended up tanking at one point, while doing 5K bleeds… + poison & burst-stacking poison which ticks for 5K at it’s best + 10 stacks of perma torment… + 2 minion damage… and… i was most of the time full HP without support.

So you guys can imagine that i’m extremely satisfied with my first necromancer experience in raids.

Build?

I just can’t get the numbers people are talking about here on my reaper. I tried every variation of these condition builds both here and on reddit and I can’t get my dps over 12k. That means sustained dps, not just my highest 1s tick.

Janx seems a little iffy when you stop fighting and then restart, so I timed all my dps measurements from the start of vale guardian until he split. this is ~90s of sustained dps. My reaper topped out at 12k dps. Lich was better than golem was better than CttB.

I then reset the meter after the split phase was over and remeasured my dps during the kiting phase. Here I was able to get ~10k dps. it was lower because I had to focus on movement more and use CC.

Those are simply not good numbers. I think it is mainly due to the slow ramp up time. Phases are only 90s long each and it takes ~30s to get to full dps. I found if I waited 30s and then started the meter I would get 13-14k dps which is better but not great.

I tried the Vale fight again on tempest with the meter. I was pulling 21k sustained damage in the first phase, and 17k sustained damage in the subsequent phases. There is really no comparison that I can see for condition reaper.

You do know that Janx can’t keep up with the Condi build? This has been stated in the Reddit post.

Ropechef.6192:

that particular meter,

all it does is screen cap your combat log, hence why it is open in the vid. it adds everything up and does math. so yes if you stop attacking stuff. its not gonna calculate anything.

all it is doing is providing a fast calculator for you.

and Spoj and Donee are right, Reaper is great in the raid scene. Relax a bit you all.

this damage meter doesnt really work too good, if you have group of mobs, and 4 condis on each… not even talking about vampiric aura vampiric strike values, simply cant catch up for necro

samulihei.1952:

You do know that Janx can’t keep up with the Condi build? This has been stated in the Reddit post.

If it can’t keep up with a condition build then it certainly can’t keep up with my temepst build so the difference remains the same.

I also have seen no evidence of this. As far as I can tell it SS’s the top 8 lines of the combat log every 200ms. this means it would have to be scrolling by at more than 40 lines per second to start missing things. I do 4 condition ticks, 5 minion ticks, and 3 direct damage hits per second, for a total of 12 lines per second. I don’t see any reason it can’t keep up. What it can’t do very well is account for breaks in combat because the log stops and it has no way of knowing for how long.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

samulihei.1952:

You do know that Janx can’t keep up with the Condi build? This has been stated in the Reddit post.

If it can’t keep up with a condition build then it certainly can’t keep up with my temepst build so the difference remains the same.

I also have seen no evidence of this. As far as I can tell it SS’s the top 8 lines of the combat log every 200ms. this means it would have to be scrolling by at more than 40 lines per second to start missing things. I do 4 condition ticks, 5 minion ticks, and 3 direct damage hits per second, for a total of 12 lines per second. I don’t see any reason it can’t keep up. What it can’t do very well is account for breaks in combat because the log stops and it has no way of knowing for how long.

vampiric auras and shambling horros f.e., doesnt keep up, even with power dps it counted my 16k gravediggers as 2k dps

kiki.6250:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

samulihei.1952:

You do know that Janx can’t keep up with the Condi build? This has been stated in the Reddit post.

If it can’t keep up with a condition build then it certainly can’t keep up with my temepst build so the difference remains the same.

I also have seen no evidence of this. As far as I can tell it SS’s the top 8 lines of the combat log every 200ms. this means it would have to be scrolling by at more than 40 lines per second to start missing things. I do 4 condition ticks, 5 minion ticks, and 3 direct damage hits per second, for a total of 12 lines per second. I don’t see any reason it can’t keep up. What it can’t do very well is account for breaks in combat because the log stops and it has no way of knowing for how long.

vampiric auras and shambling horros f.e., doesnt keep up, even with power dps it counted my 16k gravediggers as 2k dps

I don’t really have time right now, but hopefully someone can release a version that captures 3-5x faster. It is open source so it should be relatively easy to do if it is well coded. My rig can certainly handle it. Too bad you can’t expand the combat log more and have it read a bigger list. I’d certainly love to see a more accurate version, specifically that handles breaks in combat better.

So, I don’t get it, really. I’ve had people telling me Reaper is on a VERY decent spot atm, YET, the claims that it’s a sub-optimal, below-average class still persist and eben above there’s a necro advicing not to take necros…