Guild Wars 2

Necro performance varies hugely on each raid boss. Vale guard neither builds are amazing. But dps tank is still probably one of the best tanks. For Gorseval dps tank is really good. Sabetha I would say scepter Condi is really good for everything except the cannons. You can take the range dps role to lure fireballs without losing dps.

gavyne.6847:

From the guilds that try to run optimal setups, they prefer engies, revs, rangers, and wars when it comes to condi/dps. It is indeed kind of sad that this is like the dungeon meta all over again. I was really hoping that this time around with our new elite spec, that we wouldn’t have to settle for less than optimal.

Because the condi reaper raid meta haven’t been stabilished yet. i did like 4 hours of raiding yesterday and i did output more damage than my burn tempest on reaper. I couldn’t straight compare to engi/warr/ranger because i don’t have the gear for them, but i think i am close from the videos i watched at least. Not myself playing the classes, tho.

The group that did the World first Sabetha kill had a Valk/Zerker Reaper on their team, so we can’t be in that bad of a spot right?

Skoigoth.9238:

The group that did the World first Sabetha kill had a Valk/Zerker Reaper on their team, so we can’t be in that bad of a spot right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnGbi-SA-b4

In before “they would have been better off if he played <insert other class here>”.

I am struggling with how similar the raid content is with traditional PvE. The same old issues that plagued PvE and made Necromancer less than optimal are still there.

First, I do not understand why there have to be time limits and other gates that force separations between professions with different damage output. I want a developer to explain this. A challenging encounter should not boil down to bringing max dps professions and this is how the raid is shaking out.

Second, the raid bosses still do not calculate aggro the way I think they should. The highest damage or heals should claim aggro. There is no reason to bunker for aggro controller so max dps is the only build that matters. Aside from needing a few high condition damage builds, some CC, and a little boon stripping, the meta is still berserker/sinister/boons, leading back to the first point. The raid does not support professions designed around non-desirable ‘roles’ when the most important requirement is dps. Artificially claiming aggro with a toughness build does not help the team. Do healers like Druid or a water Ele need to be there?

Third, raid bosses follow a set script for what they do and when they do it. Once a player memorizes the script, the raid becomes less interesting. I would rather see raid bosses have ten skills like players and enough intelligence to block, counter, dodge, heal, and target skills toward specific professions. This “wandering around using three skills” design is garbage.

Raid bosses should be difficult to play against and not be a simple damage sponge on a timer.

The more I play the new PvE areas, the more disappointed I am in how that play adheres to the old ‘just flail at it until it dies’ design.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Skoigoth.9238:

The group that did the World first Sabetha kill had a Valk/Zerker Reaper on their team, so we can’t be in that bad of a spot right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnGbi-SA-b4

In before “they would have been better off if he played <insert other class here>”.

Yeah maybe, idk, I’m not a very good theorycrafter I think =P But does it really matter right now where raids are basically about being able to complete them at all for most people? Seeing that you can in fact complete the raid with a Reaper and don’t totally screw your team with your class choice is quite frankly good enough for me.

Anchoku.8142:

I am struggling with how similar the raid content is with traditional PvE. The same old issues that plagued PvE and made Necromancer less than optimal are still there.

First, I do not understand why there have to be time limits and other gates that force separations between professions with different damage output. I want a developer to explain this. A challenging encounter should not boil down to bringing max dps professions and this is how the raid is shaking out.

Second, the raid bosses still do not calculate aggro the way I think they should. The highest damage or heals should claim aggro. There is no reason to bunker for aggro controller so max dps is the only build that matters. Aside from needing a few high condition damage builds, some CC, and a little boon stripping, the meta is still berserker/sinister/boons, leading back to the first point. The raid does not support professions designed around non-desirable ‘roles’ when the most important requirement is dps. Artificially claiming aggro with a toughness build does not help the team.

Third, raid bosses follow a set script for what they do and when they do it. Once a player memorizes the script, the raid becomes less interesting. I would rather see raid bosses have ten skills like players and enough intelligence to block, counter, dodge, heal, and target skills toward specific professions. This “wandering around using three skills” design is garbage.

Raid bosses should be difficult to play against and not be a simple damage sponge on a timer.

The more I play the new PvE areas, the more disappointed I am in how that play adheres to the old ‘just flail at it until it dies’ design.

PvE is always going to be scripted. If you have a boss that acts “intelligently” with blocks/dodges/etc., then the fight will render down into gaming the boss to force blocks/dodges/etc., after which you apply the actual DPS. It will still be scripted. PvE is a scripted challenge that you overcome as a group. Once they create learning AI, maybe they’ll be able to create something you seem to want.

Also, you can’t say “threat should go to the highest DPS/healing”, then turn around and complain about there not being a reason to bunker. If there was a reason to bunker, the bunker wouldn’t even be able to take aggro in your scenario, since DPS would just be stripping it off constantly. They’d have to fully develop the concept of “threat”, add in abilities that generate more threat, and then you’re back at a trinity. A toughness-based aggro system should work just fine.

Further, these are the first 3 raid bosses ANet has created. What exactly were your expectations? Tuning is always a moving target when it comes to raid encounters. If ANet wants to move away from a “zerker meta”, they’ll have to see how the zerker meta operates in a raid situation, why it still works, and analyze how they might be able to design an encounter that punishes it in some way. It’s going to take time.

And if they are simple sponges on a timer, why was the 3rd boss only killed for the first time two days ago? It took people 3-4 days to figure out a couple sponges?

EDIT – @Skoigoth: I agree with you. At this point it’s about completion, it seems, and if you can complete with a Reaper, then that’s good in my book.

Anchoku.8142:

Third, raid bosses follow a set script for what they do and when they do it. Once a player memorizes the script, the raid becomes less interesting. I would rather see raid bosses have ten skills like players and enough intelligence to block, counter, dodge, heal, and target skills toward specific professions. This “wandering around using three skills” design is garbage.

This is the big reason why I’m not all that excited about the raid, difficulties in PUGing it aside.

Maxzero.4032:

No DPS for 9-10 seconds is a 2.3k DPS dip? This is 47 seconds into the fight (fight starts at 6 seconds in and he flies away at 53 seconds). Interesting math.

Let me ask you do you think he was doing 20k+ DPS over the fight? Do you think that meter was accurate?

He casted Meteor Shower right before flying away. Just watch the combat log and the numbers when he is landing. That is pretty far from “no DPS”.

spoj.9672:

Necro performance varies hugely on each raid boss. Vale guard neither builds are amazing. But dps tank is still probably one of the best tanks. For Gorseval dps tank is really good. Sabetha I would say scepter Condi is really good for everything except the cannons. You can take the range dps role to lure fireballs without losing dps.

We had Tempest luring the fire and drawing the arrow.

I was on cannon duty for Sabetha because you can kill the cannons in 5 sec by casting locusts just as someone launches you and aim well with fast with range indicator so it drops the moment you drop yourself and you just smack it with gs. I’d say power is better because minimizing time spent on platforms is better in the long run.

Yeah but thats ignoring something potentially broken that i want to try out next time my team plays.

spoj.9672:

Yeah but thats ignoring something potentially broken that i want to try out next time my team plays.

Portal shenanigans?

Nope. Purely necrosploits.

spoj.9672:

Nope. Purely necrosploits.

The only other thing I can think of is eating a bunch of burning from boss on purpose and transferring

Cogbyrn.7283:

PvE is always going to be scripted. If you have a boss that acts “intelligently” with blocks/dodges/etc., then the fight will render down into gaming the boss to force blocks/dodges/etc., after which you apply the actual DPS. It will still be scripted. PvE is a scripted challenge that you overcome as a group. Once they create learning AI, maybe they’ll be able to create something you seem to want.

Also, you can’t say “threat should go to the highest DPS/healing”, then turn around and complain about there not being a reason to bunker. If there was a reason to bunker, the bunker wouldn’t even be able to take aggro in your scenario, since DPS would just be stripping it off constantly. They’d have to fully develop the concept of “threat”, add in abilities that generate more threat, and then you’re back at a trinity. A toughness-based aggro system should work just fine.

Further, these are the first 3 raid bosses ANet has created. What exactly were your expectations? Tuning is always a moving target when it comes to raid encounters. If ANet wants to move away from a “zerker meta”, they’ll have to see how the zerker meta operates in a raid situation, why it still works, and analyze how they might be able to design an encounter that punishes it in some way. It’s going to take time.

And if they are simple sponges on a timer, why was the 3rd boss only killed for the first time two days ago? It took people 3-4 days to figure out a couple sponges?

EDIT – @Skoigoth: I agree with you. At this point it’s about completion, it seems, and if you can complete with a Reaper, then that’s good in my book.

PvE does not need to be scripted to such detail. The script just resets the fight as the next phase begins. It is useful for controlling the pace for event progression, if you are a developer measuring player performance and builds.

Ten skills on a boss AI, all with individual cool down timers, add a lot more complexity for players than scripted phases.

Bosses do not need groundbreaking AI development. They just need a few skills on rotation and the rest of the skills on demand as automatic counters to players’ skill use.

The server knows meteor shower is coming so why not use a dodge to avoid the red circle? The AI does not have to predict anything, just react to skills with strong damage or heals. If the boss would just block, dodge, or interrupt big skills using counters on cool down timers like real players, that would be more than challenging enough without needing multiple phases heavily scripted. It would also create a more pvp-like experience so PvE players would not develop bad habits.

Regarding aggro, toughness could be used to claim a tank role and help position the boss but the meta does not need a tank role and building for aggro control has no value in the zerker / sinister meta.

If toughness-based tanking is not where the game designers want to go, fix the aggro table so at least player damage, control effects, and heals factor in more strongly.

Arenanet should either make events require a tank+healer system for positioning and keeping dps-ers safe, or change the aggro formula to be less friendly to those same dps-ers. Right now, the system is broken from the stand point of both options: tank+healer does not increase the effective dps of other professions so there is no point to toughness while offensive and healing stat’s also do not generate more aggro meaning there is no penalty in building glassy.

All of these suggestions are well within Arenanet’s ability. I do not understand why the company still chooses to design easy PvE AI and scale up difficulty with ‘bring me a rock’ event design.

Anchoku.8142:

It would also create a more pvp-like experience so PvE players would not develop bad habits.

This is the attitude that makes absolutely no sense to me. There is absolutely no reason to try to make PvE feel like PvP. PvPers always complain when there is “too much PvE” in their PvP. What makes you think PvEers want PvP in their PvE?

You can develop engaging and interesting mechanics without having a boss have a table of abilities to dodge. If a boss is designed to dodge 5 abilities, then you would use whichever abilities do the least DPS to bait the dodges, then use the highest DPS abilities. Or, you would just use your abilities on cooldown and the dodging would change absolutely nothing. In either case, I don’t see how that makes the fight more interesting.

If you want a PvP-like experience, just go PvP. I really don’t see how PvE needs it.

As far as fight complexity, I’m sure that’ll develop over time. No one should be expecting some revolutionary design on ANet’s first attempt at GW2 raids. ANet needs to find their design stride and gather data on the fights they’ve release thus far first, in my opinion.

Anyone able to post up some builds and gear recommendations for condi reaper? All I have access to this far is power builds lol :/ weapons, skillsw, traits, runes etc please!

I’m cool with trash mobs that act like a pvp encounter like the Toxic Alliance, but a boss? Nah I’m good.

Adjust.6903:

Anyone able to post up some builds and gear recommendations for condi reaper? All I have access to this far is power builds lol :/ weapons, skillsw, traits, runes etc please!

Build + Guide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jPZiUmxJDk

Still working on a raid build, trying some stuffs, seeing what work and what doesn’t.

After writing all that, I thought about what are the closest examples to fighting a good AI in this game.

It is events with multiple mobs: each one may only have three skills but, with several types of them and in good quantity, the result is closer to what I expect of a boss with good AI. There is still no active skill countering but the numbers and positioning of multiple, powerful mobs.

Soloing or duoing refugee camp defense offers more real time strategy because of the more random and less predictable elements while being difficult enough due to being grossly outnumbered.

Arenanet could take four of their favorite fractal bosses, a few lower bosses like champs, stuff ten players onto a platform with them, and wish everyone luck. I would prefer that to gated phases and timers. The variety of boss skills should mix things up enough in the chaos.

Ah yes forgot about your build just out of curiosity how well does that work for general note playing I.e. auric basic veterans. Going to test out your build and brazils and see how I feel. I believe he uses scepter in his also which is interesting.

I’m a huge fan of dots, played mostly affliction warlock in wow from vanilla to mop haha

Anchoku.8142:

After writing all that, I thought about what are the closest examples to fighting a good AI in this game.

It is events with multiple mobs: each one may only have three skills but, with several types of them and in good quantity, the result is closer to what I expect of a boss with good AI. There is still no active skill countering but the numbers and positioning of multiple, powerful mobs.

Soloing or duoing refugee camp defense offers more real time strategy because of the more random and less predictable elements while being difficult enough due to being grossly outnumbered.

Arenanet could take four of their favorite fractal bosses, a few lower bosses like champs, stuff ten players onto a platform with them, and wish everyone luck. I would prefer that to gated phases and timers. The variety of boss skills should mix things up enough in the chaos.

Its all well and good have interesting dynamic fights like that. But for truly challenging content you need timers and gates as well. Both sides are required to create difficulty. Without them you can just take slow cheesy routes (see safespots etc). And the timers on spirit vale arent even hard gates. So im really confused about all these complaints about “hard gates” and “hard timers”. They dont exist in gw2 raids yet people are implying they do falsely. Im guessing they havent actually played the raids or havent lived long enough to run out of time on the timer so they dont realise that. :P

spoj.9672:

Anchoku.8142:

After writing all that, I thought about what are the closest examples to fighting a good AI in this game.

It is events with multiple mobs: each one may only have three skills but, with several types of them and in good quantity, the result is closer to what I expect of a boss with good AI. There is still no active skill countering but the numbers and positioning of multiple, powerful mobs.

Soloing or duoing refugee camp defense offers more real time strategy because of the more random and less predictable elements while being difficult enough due to being grossly outnumbered.

Arenanet could take four of their favorite fractal bosses, a few lower bosses like champs, stuff ten players onto a platform with them, and wish everyone luck. I would prefer that to gated phases and timers. The variety of boss skills should mix things up enough in the chaos.

Its all well and good have interesting dynamic fights like that. But for truly challenging content you need timers and gates as well. Both sides are required to create difficulty. Without them you can just take slow cheesy routes (see safespots etc). And the timers on spirit vale arent even hard gates. So im really confused about all these complaints about “hard gates” and “hard timers”. They dont exist in gw2 raids yet people are implying they do falsely. Im guessing they havent actually played the raids or havent lived long enough to run out of time on the timer so they dont realise that. :P

I’d say the enrage timers are more “firm gates” that, while you don’t strictly have to beat a boss in the time limit, you’re gonna have a hell of a time finishing it off if you don’t down it within the time limit

Which is necessary to create difficulty. But its not so strict that if you lack just a little dps you cant still make it. Our first Gorseval was a few seconds after the timer ran out.

Are we still talking about the necro’s utility on Raids? Because I just read stuff about AI now…

Anchoku.8142:

After writing all that, I thought about what are the closest examples to fighting a good AI in this game.

It is events with multiple mobs: each one may only have three skills but, with several types of them and in good quantity, the result is closer to what I expect of a boss with good AI. There is still no active skill countering but the numbers and positioning of multiple, powerful mobs.

Soloing or duoing refugee camp defense offers more real time strategy because of the more random and less predictable elements while being difficult enough due to being grossly outnumbered.

Arenanet could take four of their favorite fractal bosses, a few lower bosses like champs, stuff ten players onto a platform with them, and wish everyone luck. I would prefer that to gated phases and timers. The variety of boss skills should mix things up enough in the chaos.

You can’t have random. In the end it will just be a lot of possibilities, but the players will learn them all and what to do, in which situation to do it.

You’re just asking for more mobs and no timer on the event, so a dodge game basically ? I don’t really see how it would be better.

Adjust.6903:

Ah yes forgot about your build just out of curiosity how well does that work for general note playing I.e. auric basic veterans. Going to test out your build and brazils and see how I feel. I believe he uses scepter in his also which is interesting.

I’m a huge fan of dots, played mostly affliction warlock in wow from vanilla to mop haha

It works really well in open world pve. I swap a few things out to better suit my needs. I’ll post a link here:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vREQNAW7dnMbCV3gtbCmbC0biFcBLuK+FHjUnh2Q0C6qFAaBA-TBiAQBQU9nrp8rL7DUgDCg6WYAAHBAAqZQSKBDAgAwEn4En4EnYpAgZZF-e

Since in open world pve you are facing multiples mobs at once most of times, i pick augury of death and spite line so i can be self-suficient.
I usually start the fight with 15+ might stacks and it quickly reachs 25 stacks with RS#1 attacks.

I don’t think anyone is saying raiding is impossible as a necro, but any content that is this challenging is going to come down to path of least resistance style strats. You always want to bring as much overkill as you can to account for the several people in your raid group who are going to be bad and need carrying. Overkill is the best kind of kill.

Still hope that someone will come up with a crazy build that really shines in raids though.

I think they pretty much already did.

Ktk.5107:

I think they pretty much already did.

All I see is spoj talking about some exploit he’s not sharing, and nemesis saying he got some average condi dps, specifically mentioning 5k bleed, the 40 second cooldown poison whirl burst, and 10 torment stacks which is consistently mediocre compared to a burnzerker.

That was my point.

Just saw someone mention Superior Runes of the Chronomancer. 6th bonus is applies 2s of quickness when you cast a well. New BiS for reaper?

Tobias.8632:

Just saw someone mention Superior Runes of the Chronomancer. 6th bonus is applies 2s of quickness when you cast a well. New BiS for reaper?

Can’t really see people taking more than 2 wells (suffering & corruption) in raids, so even when traited that’s around that 4s of quickness per 30s, that’s ~13% up-time.
On the face of it that seems like a sustained DPS loss in over rune of the scholar’s 10% damage buff and extra crit damage.

Tobias.8632:

Ktk.5107:

I think they pretty much already did.

All I see is spoj talking about some exploit he’s not sharing, and nemesis saying he got some average condi dps, specifically mentioning 5k bleed, the 40 second cooldown poison whirl burst, and 10 torment stacks which is consistently mediocre compared to a burnzerker.

Burnzerker is only excepcional if they can get the right positioning on scorched earth, which in a realistic scenario the chances to happen are fairly low.
I am pretty happy with my reaper dps in raid the other day. I may only go burn tempest for sabetha because i’ll be able to land all my fire fields without it move away.

spoj.9672:

Its all well and good have interesting dynamic fights like that. But for truly challenging content you need timers and gates as well. Both sides are required to create difficulty. Without them you can just take slow cheesy routes (see safespots etc). And the timers on spirit vale arent even hard gates. So im really confused about all these complaints about “hard gates” and “hard timers”. They dont exist in gw2 raids yet people are implying they do falsely. Im guessing they havent actually played the raids or havent lived long enough to run out of time on the timer so they dont realise that. :P

I agree the events should be planned and there should be limits in the time to complete but disagree on how tightly scripted the first raid is. Group dps is emphasized too heavily creating potential for profession discrimination while group survival and real time strategy seem under-rated.

Do this, then do that, bring me a rock, reset for the next phase – this all reminds me of a turn-based, sequential game.

A raid I would like to see would have several bosses active simultaneously using a variety of skills and having a variety of weaknesses. The raid team would have to decide which to separate and kite or focus, which to attack simultaneously and how to counter their skills while keeping the raid alive. The initial part of the fight would be extremely difficult, of course, but getting one boss focused down would relieve some pressure and ease the next focus target. This is much like the first fight in the Uncategorized fractal but scaled up.

There are other aspects of fractals I would include in a raid design.

Tobias.8632:

Ktk.5107:

I think they pretty much already did.

All I see is spoj talking about some exploit he’s not sharing, and nemesis saying he got some average condi dps, specifically mentioning 5k bleed, the 40 second cooldown poison whirl burst, and 10 torment stacks which is consistently mediocre compared to a burnzerker.

With jagged horrors consistent 8-10k bleeds isn’t very hard to upkeep.

Just go for bers reaper or marauder when tanking. Condi necro is fun, but his dps is far lower