Guild Wars 2

All you need to do to make the GS viable in PvP is to watch Zefrost’s video and implement his idea:

There have been so many threads on this already, but the cause is noble.

I doubt this would ever happen because of the increase in mobility it would cause. It would somewhat give necro decent access so a z-axis teleport on a low cooldown much like guardians flashing blade.

Sigmoid.7082:

I doubt this would ever happen because of the increase in mobility it would cause. It would somewhat give necro decent access so a z-axis teleport on a low cooldown much like guardians flashing blade.

It would be the only (non-RS) weapon skill with mobility.

If something similar ever happen the skill need to be like Illusionary Leap. I like the skill as it is, I can use it on the move and turn around and also I dont need target for it. But if the leap/teleport is a second skill with some additional effect (chill+ blast) it will be fine.

While this would be great, I’m curious why this would be “all” that needs to be done to the GS?

The weapon still has a lot of QoL changes that could be done to it.

Its a really great idea. This would solve quite a few problems if the range was 1200. It should also daze for about 2 seconds. This isn’t enough though, the only thing left would be an AoE block on the number 4 instead of blind. If they implemented these three changes to the weapon i think GS would be a much more usable weapon in PvP

Its funny how Robert Gee said Reaper isnt so much going to your opponent but pulling them towards you. Ironic since Reaper has a half hearted chase and ONLY ONE pull on a 30 second CD. Lol this studio makes me cringe

Dead.5829:

While this would be great, I’m curious why this would be “all” that needs to be done to the GS?

The weapon still has a lot of QoL changes that could be done to it.

I wanted to start small, hoping the dev’s might take more easily take notice to this one aspect. As mentioned, I feel this change would make the GS somewhat viable in casual+ PvP, but of course it still has a lot of room for improvement. But please feel free to share your other ideas to improve the GS QoL.

To be completely honest with you, GS is viable in casual+ PvP. I used it to climb the Ranked Ladder last season because the build is simply fun. While the weapon has some minor issues that could be addressed, I definitely think way too many people call it trash just because “Oh, it’s so slow compared to other Necro weapons!”

Zero Solstice.9754:

To be completely honest with you, GS is viable in casual+ PvP. I used it to climb the Ranked Ladder last season because the build is simply fun. While the weapon has some minor issues that could be addressed, I definitely think way too many people call it trash just because “Oh, it’s so slow compared to other Necro weapons!”

Shrug I don’t take issue with it’s speed. I think the auto and GD are fine, along with the fantastic #4. The problems I see with GS are the clunky #5 and the “lackluster” #3: it doesn’t feel good to use and has no impact on any fight. So, I think giving #3 a gap-closer that also ensures the LF generation would go miles to making GS a great weapon.

Zero Solstice.9754:

To be completely honest with you, GS is viable in casual+ PvP. I used it to climb the Ranked Ladder last season because the build is simply fun. While the weapon has some minor issues that could be addressed, I definitely think way too many people call it trash just because “Oh, it’s so slow compared to other Necro weapons!”

No mate the problem isnt just that it is slow, slow can work, the problem is that it is slow with zero compensation or offset. It is slow, and you have to eat everything that is thrown at you. If you are using GS and fighting a Revenant or guardian that is stacking blocks, forget about hitting. “Nothing can save you” is not compensation. Revenant and Guardian dont have thier weapons held back because of sitational utilities. Also using the weapon means that you have no way of shutting down range unlike other classes, even guardian has a z axis gap closer that isnt affected by stability, block, blind, evade etc

Salamander.2504:

I wanted to start small, hoping the dev’s might take more easily take notice to this one aspect. As mentioned, I feel this change would make the GS somewhat viable in casual+ PvP, but of course it still has a lot of room for improvement. But please feel free to share your other ideas to improve the GS QoL.

Haha, fair. I think the issue with saying this is “all” the GS needs, so that devs start on it, is one of moving goalposts.

I think this change would be fantastic, and would be a great way to improve the weapon, specs that use it, and Death Spiral’s role (initiating and setting up other skills).

I think the weapon could either use better hybridization (especially with the backlash against Chill of Death) through more condi application. At this point, I’m willing to sacrifice Soul Eater to change the weapon’s role up (gs skills cause bleeding? gravedigger causes burning?).

While I’d love Grasping Darkness to work reliably, there seem to be engineering difficulties for that. As stands, I would like a slightly lower cd or even longer range. I could give up on that idea if the original Death Spiral suggestion was put in (since you could use it to leap toward your target and then throw a Grasp).

Gravedigger aftercast needs to go. Not only does it feel clunky, it holds the dps (and the recharge mechanic) back. Is anyone actually worried this is going to lead to too high of damage when power necro is still lackluster in pve, and not super impressive in pvp?

I absolutely love Nightfall, but people have voiced the desire to see it blind every second. I don’t know if that’s necessary, but the volume of requests substantiate further research.

The auto doesn’t bother me much, but I’d love for something more dynamic from it. A water field that can be comboed with Gravedigger, perhaps. A self buff for each of the first two hits in the chain, possibly being quickness (op, most likely) or a slowly building cast speed increase.

Ragion.2831:

Zero Solstice.9754:

To be completely honest with you, GS is viable in casual+ PvP. I used it to climb the Ranked Ladder last season because the build is simply fun. While the weapon has some minor issues that could be addressed, I definitely think way too many people call it trash just because “Oh, it’s so slow compared to other Necro weapons!”

No mate the problem isnt just that it is slow, slow can work, the problem is that it is slow with zero compensation or offset. It is slow, and you have to eat everything that is thrown at you. If you are using GS and fighting a Revenant or guardian that is stacking blocks, forget about hitting. “Nothing can save you” is not compensation. Revenant and Guardian dont have thier weapons held back because of sitational utilities. Also using the weapon means that you have no way of shutting down range unlike other classes, even guardian has a z axis gap closer that isnt affected by stability, block, blind, evade etc

Again, the weapon isn’t perfect, but it’s not the only slow melee weapon that suffers from being unable to hit a Rev that’s in Crystal Hibernation (like 95% of weapon abilities). A blink of some sort would certainly be nice, but weapon sets only ever have one form of “mobility”. I’ll use Flashing Blade as an example, since you brought it up. There is no other form of mobility on any other iteration of Sword/X, Sword 3 even roots you.

You’re trying to use the idea of “compensation” the wrong way in my opinion. The compensation is that the weapon’s bases are high, and hits quite hard by default. “Compensation” does not have to equal “My autos crit for 6k with no Power or Ferocity”, considering the weapon has a potentially spammable 10k nuke. Should anything be designed around best case scenario? No, not really, and that’s where Gravedigger starts to feel pretty bad, since its actual cast is so finicky, but I certainly think GS is balanced in its current iteration.

Zero Solstice.9754:

Again, the weapon isn’t perfect, but it’s not the only slow melee weapon that suffers from being unable to hit a Rev that’s in Crystal Hibernation (like 95% of weapon abilities). A blink of some sort would certainly be nice, but weapon sets only ever have one form of “mobility”. I’ll use Flashing Blade as an example, since you brought it up. There is no other form of mobility on any other iteration of Sword/X, Sword 3 even roots you.

You’re trying to use the idea of “compensation” the wrong way in my opinion. The compensation is that the weapon’s bases are high, and hits quite hard by default. “Compensation” does not have to equal “My autos crit for 6k with no Power or Ferocity”, considering the weapon has a potentially spammable 10k nuke. Should anything be designed around best case scenario? No, not really, and that’s where Gravedigger starts to feel pretty bad, since its actual cast is so finicky, but I certainly think GS is balanced in its current iteration.

I get the impression you either dont play PvP or you were paid by Robert Gee to say this because I dont understand your argument. Potentially spammable? it is either spammable or it isnt. In the real world (of PvP) you cannot spam gravedigger unless against downed players and NPCs. Just because Anet says it doesnt go into CD if you hit someone below 50% doesnt mean you will actually be able to hit them multiple times, quite the contrary. The “potentially spammable 10k nuke” is for PvE since we are dealing with AI that are there to die.

Playing necromancer means that you have to take whatever is being thrown at you , and the only thing you can depend on is cooldowns. Taking GS just makes it worse, saying GS isnt the only slow weapon that cant get past blocks doesnt make the weapon look any better. You see a ranger far away from you? you cant negate and counter pressure like revenant or guardian can without utilities, you have to eat the burst shroud or no shroud (and god forbid you dont have shroud) or you use things like Corrosive Poison Cloud which has its own set of problems.

With revevnant, dodge, get stab, block everything around you with off hand sword, port to them with shiro and you very quickly can use the full weight of the class to take down the ranger and still have other skills with low CDs to shut down more people. GS reaper is walk in slow motion use up your evades before you even get to them, use up lifeforce before you even get to them, you get to them, you use your gravedigger or grasping shadows which a blind person can evade, they stealth or use staff to leave you behind and then you just wasted all that energy for nothing, meanwhile DH is already squatting for a trueshot and a thief has decided to get you acquainted with his dagger.

Having a 10k nuke doesn’t mean anything if you cant take advantage of it. You say your autos crit for 6k but who stands there and eats GS autos? are you fighting Skritt?

A lot of Weapon sets have more than one mobility skill.
Thief
Staff
Dagger/ pistol

Warrior
Greatsword
Sword/warhorn

Revenant
Sword/ axe

Ele
Dagger(but they only get one weapon)

Almost all melee have a gap closer that isn’t affected by the enemies action(unless interrupt)

Ragion.2831:

Zero Solstice.9754:

Again, the weapon isn’t perfect, but it’s not the only slow melee weapon that suffers from being unable to hit a Rev that’s in Crystal Hibernation (like 95% of weapon abilities). A blink of some sort would certainly be nice, but weapon sets only ever have one form of “mobility”. I’ll use Flashing Blade as an example, since you brought it up. There is no other form of mobility on any other iteration of Sword/X, Sword 3 even roots you.

You’re trying to use the idea of “compensation” the wrong way in my opinion. The compensation is that the weapon’s bases are high, and hits quite hard by default. “Compensation” does not have to equal “My autos crit for 6k with no Power or Ferocity”, considering the weapon has a potentially spammable 10k nuke. Should anything be designed around best case scenario? No, not really, and that’s where Gravedigger starts to feel pretty bad, since its actual cast is so finicky, but I certainly think GS is balanced in its current iteration.

I get the impression you either dont play PvP or you were paid by Robert Gee to say this because I dont understand your argument. Potentially spammable? it is either spammable or it isnt…

Not going to bother taking the rest of the quote because it’s both long and shortsighted. Anet balances abilities based on the best-case scenario, which in this case would be spamming Gravedigger uninhibited repeatedly. “Potentially” means Gravedigger could at any time become spammable, as per the condition of an opponent being below 50% HP. I recommend you find a dictionary.

Also, I shouldn’t have to flash credentials to have an opinion on the subject. You can believe I’m right or not, but the baseless concept of saying “I don’t play PvP” (which is false, by the way) when you don’t know me isn’t exactly grounds for debunking my position.

Wow what? are you trying to be funny. First of all how do you know balance is done on best case scenario. Nobody can pin point how they balance because it is on a case by case basis. I dont think even Anet knows considering how often they have changed direction, especially when it comes to Necro.

Second i dont know if you have joined Anet in assuming practice dummies is a reasonable way of testing but spamming grave digger is not even remotely realistic in PvP, only in PvE, which is why i asked if you play PvP at all. I dont understand how anyone can suggest grave digger spamming (with how slow it is) is a thing and even worse its existence justifies the weapon’s horrible flexibility.

You seem to be one of those that thinks damage is everything. I hate to break it to you but its not. If it was, warrior wouldn’t be seen as such a bad class right now. The only thing that is saving Reaper now is its condi side.

I have a use for Gravedigger in PVP that works with variable success rate. I open with my range weapon of choice, do some dmg, apply some condis then switch to GS, pull with 5 and hit with Gravedigger. Intel sigil makes sure its a crit and at this point the enemy is quite low on health. This works best if the other person doesnt expect a necro with a gs in pvp and it also helps if he is not very experienced in pvp

Ragion.2831:

Wow what? are you trying to be funny. First of all how do you know balance is done on best case scenario. Nobody can pin point how they balance because it is on a case by case basis. I dont think even Anet knows considering how often they have changed direction, especially when it comes to Necro.

Second i dont know if you have joined Anet in assuming practice dummies is a reasonable way of testing but spamming grave digger is not even remotely realistic in PvP, only in PvE, which is why i asked if you play PvP at all. I dont understand how anyone can suggest grave digger spamming (with how slow it is) is a thing and even worse its existence justifies the weapon’s horrible flexibility.

You seem to be one of those that thinks damage is everything. I hate to break it to you but its not. If it was, warrior wouldn’t be seen as such a bad class right now. The only thing that is saving Reaper now is its condi side.

I use a Necro in PvP exclusively with a minion master hybrid. I use GS and a staff and having wicked success doing so. Minions help you tank damage long enough to get the key skills off and offset the insane conditions , plus you get the benefit of condi removal (staff) and the high damage from the GS.

I can understand if you dont like to play how the GS is demanding, however, that doesn’t mean its broken/flawed/etc. Now, before this gets out of control, I will admit their are some problems with QoL stuff, just I dont see any problem with its overall performance in PvP. Its just a different way to play it.

pepsis.5384:

I have a use for Gravedigger in PVP that works with variable success rate. I open with my range weapon of choice, do some dmg, apply some condis then switch to GS, pull with 5 and hit with Gravedigger. Intel sigil makes sure its a crit and at this point the enemy is quite low on health. This works best if the other person doesnt expect a necro with a gs in pvp and it also helps if he is not very experienced in pvp

Pull with GS 5 and then grave digger, I feel this was supposed to be the weapon’s lock burst combo. A lock burst combo is a combo that first locks the target in place and more or less guarantees the target takes full damage on a skill. Just about every other class’s weapon has one, or the lock part on the combo is in a trait with a very short or no CD, e.g Warrior: leg specialist trait/bladetrail —-—- Arcing slice

GS doesnt have one. It should have been GS 5 with grave digger but gs 5 cooldown is too long compared to grave digger. None of Necro’s weapons actually has lock burst except dagger but the number 2 isnt what i would call a burst skill so not really.

You use condis with GS. You running hybrid? how is it working for you?

TheMurkMuffin.8213:

I use a Necro in PvP exclusively with a minion master hybrid. I use GS and a staff and having wicked success doing so. Minions help you tank damage long enough to get the key skills off and offset the insane conditions , plus you get the benefit of condi removal and the high damage from the GS.

I can understand if you dont like to play how the GS is demanding, however, that doesn’t mean its broken/flawed/etc. Now, before this gets out of control, I will admit their are some problems with QoL stuff, just I dont see any problem with its overall performance in PvP. Its just a different way to play it.

Ive come across the minion GS build before, its not very common but from my little experience of fighting against it, theres very little difference between using minions with GS and not using minions. You still wind up trying to tank while doing damage which is the problem in the first place or not hitting GS a lot. By the time you find yourself in a full team on team fight and you are being targeted or ganked by mobile classes, GS very quickly becomes a hindrance and tanking doesnt do much.

If you want to know how effective your build is, attack 3 people by yourself and see how long you last and how many times you feel you have been cornered. Ive done that a lot on revenant, necro and thief at least 100 times if not more by now ad believe me, Necro is seriously lagging behind the other two. Its gotten to the point that my current rev build can hold off 2 mesmers or 2 condi reapers. Today in ranked, ran another test and held 4 players that were coming from quarry and 2 of them were condi necros.

Im looking at melee ranger and i expect it will also out perform necro, GS or no GS.

Ragion.2831:

pepsis.5384:

I have a use for Gravedigger in PVP that works with variable success rate. I open with my range weapon of choice, do some dmg, apply some condis then switch to GS, pull with 5 and hit with Gravedigger. Intel sigil makes sure its a crit and at this point the enemy is quite low on health. This works best if the other person doesnt expect a necro with a gs in pvp and it also helps if he is not very experienced in pvp

Pull with GS 5 and then grave digger, I feel this was supposed to be the weapon’s lock burst combo. A lock burst combo is a combo that first locks the target in place and more or less guarantees the target takes full damage on a skill. Just about every other class’s weapon has one, or the lock part on the combo is in a trait with a very short or no CD, e.g Warrior: leg specialist trait/bladetrail —-—- Arcing slice

GS doesnt have one. It should have been GS 5 with grave digger but gs 5 cooldown is too long compared to grave digger. None of Necro’s weapons actually has lock burst except dagger but the number 2 isnt what i would call a burst skill so not really.

You use condis with GS. You running hybrid? how is it working for you?

You are correct. The GS 5 to Gravedigger can really be used reliably once and its very situational, thats why I have intelligence sigil to make sure I crit with it. My build is indeed a hybrid (Cavalier Amulet) but its not optimal. And by optimal I mean full berserk or full condi. Its more like a tanky bruiser with good toughness and HP who can dish some condi dmg at range or melee ( poison in RS, chill ) and has potential for wicked crits with GS or RS. Probably every pro player will laugh at it but it’s what fits my aestetic play style. In other words I enjoy it.

As far as success rate goes let me first say I play unranked PVP and its 50/50 in there.

Naa man, in my opinion, the meta is complete BS. all it is is people looking for the easiest way to win. The only thing that happens is people are always looking for ways to counter the meta and that counter becomes meta and it just goes into a cycle.

Just use what ever is working for you. Every build on necro dies to quite a few things. You take rise over CPC, you get into trouble against projectiles, you take both? you lack in stun breaks. You take FTG, to counter that, you lack something else important and die because of it. So dont worry about what is optimal.

Thats exactly it, we always lack 1 or more things. I’m not too familiar with the rest of the classes but it does seem the Necro/Reaper is the class most punished for build choices. Of course I could be completely wrong

I do not understand why so many people complain about the GS. I think the weapon works really well for what it brings. I think a lot of people over-use or try to put too much emphasis on using gravedigger. In my opinion, it’s the worst skill on the weapon.

GS5 works really well with practice. It’s a little finicky if enemies are on small/elevated platforms, but scorpion wire and spectral grasp make the skill feel very easy to land :P I’ll mention that it doesn’t need a target, either, and will fire off at max range/over terrain without one, so this can be used to increase reliability.

I’ve found myself preferring gravedigger use early on in a fight as the cooldown even without the reset is short, and you can move around while using it. Engaging someone with gravedigger either forces an early evade or gives you a massive advantage very early on. 5 -> 4 -> 3 -> shroud on the escaping target is also really useful, as the combo can prevent two separate escapes, blind twice, and deal substantial damage, all while preventing your target from having any chance of winning if fighting on top of GS4 due to the sustain it offers from persistent blind and whirl-finishing the field from Soul Spiral.

Ragion.2831:

(Cut for length purposes)

I will never active seek out fighting 3 on 1 in any PvP I play, thats asking for trouble and if any class can survive…its time to investigate. But my next question for you is how you approach the fight, I never active start the fight involving 2 or more, I will always have someone else around to help. While I can chew quite a bit of damage, I can’t deal and absorb damage. 1 v 1’s (or even sometimes 1 v 2 if im on my A game) are usually a death sentence for other players unless they are really good, but even then it takes them a LONG time to down me, due to all the mechanics Necro’s have (Death Shroud, Minions, etc.). I am by no means a “PvP God” or anything close. I just the limits of this character and just try to play the strengths :P

On a side note: Rev is sorta like the combo of several current classes, morphed into one. So naturally its better, or at least the same, in the various roles. lol

pepsis.5384:

Thats exactly it, we always lack 1 or more things. I’m not too familiar with the rest of the classes but it does seem the Necro/Reaper is the class most punished for build choices. Of course I could be completely wrong

I’ve mained a thief for 3 years until I just gave up. I have to disagree with you wholeheartedly on Necro’s being the “most punished for build choices”. lol.

TheMurkMuffin.8213:

Ragion.2831:

(Cut for length purposes)

I will never active seek out fighting 3 on 1 in any PvP I play, thats asking for trouble and if any class can survive…its time to investigate. But my next question for you is how you approach the fight, I never active start the fight involving 2 or more, I will always have someone else around to help. While I can chew quite a bit of damage, I can’t deal and absorb damage. 1 v 1’s (or even sometimes 1 v 2 if im on my A game) are usually a death sentence for other players unless they are really good, but even then it takes them a LONG time to down me, due to all the mechanics Necro’s have (Death Shroud, Minions, etc.). I am by no means a “PvP God” or anything close. I just the limits of this character and just try to play the strengths :P

On a side note: Rev is sorta like the combo of several current classes, morphed into one. So naturally its better, or at least the same, in the various roles. lol

On revenant I usually approach a 3 person group with the intention of just surving it not killing them and also i go in knowing that they wont be careful because im outnumbered

So i rush one of them with Shiro’s phase traversal, usually the one with the most range since im melee.

It usually takes a few seconds before they realize i teleported so most times they dont burst right away so i hold off on unrelenting assault and just evade and auto. I usually try to be behind the person im targeting so i can watch the other 2 to know when to use unrelenting assault.

After that it is really about evade and block strings. Since im not using shield ive got plenty of those.

During the fight i try to avoid being on flat open space as much as possible because i will need to obstruct them if a block or evade is on cooldown. Also i try not to swap weapons until i have used all the defensive abilities on that weapon.

So on Sword/Sword if i block before using UR, i will still use UR even though Surge of the mists on staff will give me more damage, because i want to get them to use CDs or just buy more time for glint heal or help from teammates.

If UR is 3 seconds off and i have no more defensive skills i will dodge roll, use shiro dodge, or obstacles and wait for it before switching because killing all 3 of them at the same time is not possible anyway.

Since the group usually isnt careful until one of them is low on health, I know that pretty much all they are concerned about is killing as fast as possible which is good for me because it makes things easier to avoid. Very easy to evade when you know all they are trying to do is do damage.

The last thing which is actually pretty funny. Since they are only concerned about damaging it is easier to separate them if my target is range and the others are melee using Shiro’s riposting shadows to get them to follow yo and then phase traversal, leaves them open to UR and SoTM. If theres a melee warrior there, more often or not, they would get irritated and use rampage