Guild Wars 2

Kravick.4906:

No one is talking about sPvP. There is a reason very few people play sPvP any more.

I already said why leaving fights was stupid in WvW objectives. You give the enemy team free supply, free siege, free keeps, etc. So to change it; congrats, you left the fight so now you have to siege your own tower, or congrats, you left a supply camp so the enemy team has a brand new golem that they didn’t have to do anything for. Its worse in WvW than sPvP because a flip takes a hell of a lot more time to reverse, whereas in sPvP it is just a few points.

Bhawb.7408:

Kravick.4906:

No one is talking about sPvP. There is a reason very few people play sPvP any more.

I already said why leaving fights was stupid in WvW objectives. You give the enemy team free supply, free siege, free keeps, etc. So to change it; congrats, you left the fight so now you have to siege your own tower, or congrats, you left a supply camp so the enemy team has a brand new golem that they didn’t have to do anything for. Its worse in WvW than sPvP because a flip takes a hell of a lot more time to reverse, whereas in sPvP it is just a few points.

Yeah you don’t play WvW very much. This isn’t how WvW works at all. At least not in the top 3 tiers.

Seriously, since when do people solo cap keeps and towers? Who solo caps camps? I get the impression you’ve lost what we’re talking about some where.

Kravick.4906:

Who solo caps camps?

Elementalists apparently

Kravick.4906:

Yeah you don’t play WvW very much. This isn’t how WvW works at all. At least not in the top 3 tiers.

Seriously, since when do people solo cap keeps and towers? Who solo caps camps? I get the impression you’ve lost what we’re talking about some where.

You can solo cap camps and small teams can take towers. Solo in general in WvW is for fun, nothing more. You aren’t doing objectives, you aren’t helping your team, at best you are just doing it for the fun of it. You are that guy who plays like its TDM when you are on Capture the Flag basically.

ANet isn’t going to balance the game around an aspect of the game that people started doing solely for fun. Its like if they started balancing the game around Costume Brawl.

Also everyone needs to wait and see what happens next culling patch fix. Supposed that extra 2 seconds of stealth thieves were getting is going away, which should make those shenanigans less possible now. Also some revealed mechanic change happened, but who knows what that is going to REALLY mean. Chain stealth being impossible now would be nice.

Also I solo camps all the time, even upgraded ones…. that isn’t something the necro can’t do… we have an easier time than most doing it. Of course if they are defending the camp I cant do a 1v 2+8 NPCs.

In transit from objective to objective is where I tend to have issues with these thieves in general. You can either chase them, fail to kill them, and waste time.. or let them pick people off the back of your group (the uplevels). Yes you can ignore them, yes you can go to the objective and that 1 or 2 thieves can’t stop you… but they are dropping 3 or 4 times their number of players easily with no risk.

Wait and see next patch….. maybe it will be more balanced then.

Rennoko.5731:

Also everyone needs to wait and see what happens next culling patch fix. Supposed that extra 2 seconds of stealth thieves were getting is going away, which should make those shenanigans less possible now. Also some revealed mechanic change happened, but who knows what that is going to REALLY mean. Chain stealth being impossible now would be nice.

Also I solo camps all the time, even upgraded ones…. that isn’t something the necro can’t do… we have an easier time than most doing it. Of course if they are defending the camp I cant do a 1v 2+8 NPCs.

In transit from objective to objective is where I tend to have issues with these thieves in general. You can either chase them, fail to kill them, and waste time.. or let them pick people off the back of your group (the uplevels). Yes you can ignore them, yes you can go to the objective and that 1 or 2 thieves can’t stop you… but they are dropping 3 or 4 times their number of players easily with no risk.

Wait and see next patch….. maybe it will be more balanced then.

Personally, I can’t wait to read the forum tears of rage when baddie thieves can no longer abuse culling to hit people that can’t hit back.

I don’t even care if they still own newbies just like before. I’ve scaled my WvW back quite a bit because I find getting pummeled by someone I can’t see or target too frustrating to bother with.

Bhawb.7408:

Congrats, you gave the enemy team 10 extra seconds worth of points, plus the time you wasted in the first fight, and however long it takes you to actually finally kill them. If you count wasting a minute to take a single point that is going to be recapped pretty easily, a win, then I think we have different views of how to accomplish objectives.

@Chips, I think the issue isn’t snaring classes, the issue is that there are three classes that are essentially immune to snares (thieves, eles, mesmers). Any other class we really can snare and kill, but those three have far too much instant movement/stealth to snare.

In that case Anet better nerf those high mobility classes, or epic buff our snares so we are on par. The KINGS and QUEENS of snares should have no problem catching a Ride the Lightning ele, because that’s the whole point. They should have a good chance of catching a stealth and high mobility thief, because that’s the whole point.

I don’t think we necros should settle for anything less.

If Anet doesn’t pay attention and doesn’t help us necros, is it the end of the world? Nope. But we will just be a bunch of unhappy customers. >_<

Kravick.4906:

Bhawb.7408:

Kravick.4906:

No one is talking about sPvP. There is a reason very few people play sPvP any more.

I already said why leaving fights was stupid in WvW objectives. You give the enemy team free supply, free siege, free keeps, etc. So to change it; congrats, you left the fight so now you have to siege your own tower, or congrats, you left a supply camp so the enemy team has a brand new golem that they didn’t have to do anything for. Its worse in WvW than sPvP because a flip takes a hell of a lot more time to reverse, whereas in sPvP it is just a few points.

Yeah you don’t play WvW very much. This isn’t how WvW works at all. At least not in the top 3 tiers.

Seriously, since when do people solo cap keeps and towers? Who solo caps camps? I get the impression you’ve lost what we’re talking about some where.

Many other classes can solo and roam no problem. Thieves and eles have no problem doing that. All classes can solo a camp, including necro. I mean come on they are just a bunch of AI controlled NPCs.

Of course, soloing a camp AND then building a golem on the spot by yourself is a bit far fetched… >_>

Anyways the problem happens when your necro gets discovered by an enemy or enemies. Thieves and eles in your shoes have a good chance of getting away. Your necro can’t.

CHIPS.6018:

Kravick.4906:

Bhawb.7408:

Kravick.4906:

No one is talking about sPvP. There is a reason very few people play sPvP any more.

I already said why leaving fights was stupid in WvW objectives. You give the enemy team free supply, free siege, free keeps, etc. So to change it; congrats, you left the fight so now you have to siege your own tower, or congrats, you left a supply camp so the enemy team has a brand new golem that they didn’t have to do anything for. Its worse in WvW than sPvP because a flip takes a hell of a lot more time to reverse, whereas in sPvP it is just a few points.

Yeah you don’t play WvW very much. This isn’t how WvW works at all. At least not in the top 3 tiers.

Seriously, since when do people solo cap keeps and towers? Who solo caps camps? I get the impression you’ve lost what we’re talking about some where.

Many other classes can solo and roam no problem. Thieves and eles have no problem doing that. All classes can solo a camp, including necro. I mean come on they are just a bunch of AI controlled NPCs.

Of course, soloing a camp AND then building a golem on the spot by yourself is a bit far fetched… >_>

Anyways the problem happens when your necro gets discovered by an enemy or enemies. Thieves and eles in your shoes have a good chance of getting away. Your necro can’t.

Also some food for though (not to go too negative):

Ask yourself who would be better at defending a supply camp against 3 people attacking it. A thief of a necro?

The class that can burst 15k and then go invisible/untargettable back behind the NPCs? Or the guy that gets rushed and bursted down while the NPC’s kitten around?

The very definition of necro suggests that we would be the best bet in that scenario. I would be willing to wager that most of you would have a harder time taking that camp from a thief than a necro, playing as any class.

EDIT: My goodness…. the word D to the ERP is censored? I wasn’t aware that was offensive.

Note about how Necros should be able to lock down even RTL eles: the problem is that for some classes, they are balanced around using things like stealth and blinks for survivability, namely thieves and mesmers. While it would be nice to lock down an RTL ele, it is somewhat problematic to introduce that ability without really hurting how thieves and mesmers can perform against necros.

I was actually really concerned by what they said in the SotG though, about dodging while immobilized.

Bhawb.7408:

Note about how Necros should be able to lock down even RTL eles: the problem is that for some classes, they are balanced around using things like stealth and blinks for survivability, namely thieves and mesmers. While it would be nice to lock down an RTL ele, it is somewhat problematic to introduce that ability without really hurting how thieves and mesmers can perform against necros.

I was actually really concerned by what they said in the SotG though, about dodging while immobilized.

As a condition necro, I can tell you the ability to dodge out of roots would make my month. Getting rooted by a ranger is instant death when you don’t deal enough direct damage to kill the roots and your condition clears are on cooldown/buried behind other conditions.

Rennoko.5731:

CHIPS.6018:

Kravick.4906:

Bhawb.7408:

Kravick.4906:

No one is talking about sPvP. There is a reason very few people play sPvP any more.

I already said why leaving fights was stupid in WvW objectives. You give the enemy team free supply, free siege, free keeps, etc. So to change it; congrats, you left the fight so now you have to siege your own tower, or congrats, you left a supply camp so the enemy team has a brand new golem that they didn’t have to do anything for. Its worse in WvW than sPvP because a flip takes a hell of a lot more time to reverse, whereas in sPvP it is just a few points.

Yeah you don’t play WvW very much. This isn’t how WvW works at all. At least not in the top 3 tiers.

Seriously, since when do people solo cap keeps and towers? Who solo caps camps? I get the impression you’ve lost what we’re talking about some where.

Many other classes can solo and roam no problem. Thieves and eles have no problem doing that. All classes can solo a camp, including necro. I mean come on they are just a bunch of AI controlled NPCs.

Of course, soloing a camp AND then building a golem on the spot by yourself is a bit far fetched… >_>

Anyways the problem happens when your necro gets discovered by an enemy or enemies. Thieves and eles in your shoes have a good chance of getting away. Your necro can’t.

Also some food for though (not to go too negative):

Ask yourself who would be better at defending a supply camp against 3 people attacking it. A thief of a necro?

The class that can burst 15k and then go invisible/untargettable back behind the NPCs? Or the guy that gets rushed and bursted down while the NPC’s kitten around?

The very definition of necro suggests that we would be the best bet in that scenario. I would be willing to wager that most of you would have a harder time taking that camp from a thief than a necro, playing as any class.

EDIT: My goodness…. the word D to the ERP is censored? I wasn’t aware that was offensive.

I said previously that necro can solo a camp of NPC guards. That’s all I was claiming. I don’t think anyone would disagree with me on this.

Now to your point (not sure how it is related to my previous point). Necro have a very hard time beating multiple foes because they got no damage avoidance. Every single attack and spells from those foes would hit. Thieves and eles got damage avoidance so they have a better chance of winning against multiple foes.

I am not sure a necro should be better in a 1 vs 3 situation than a thief. However being the BEST attrition class, a necro should be the best in DELAYING DEFEAT in a 1 vs 3 situation, so help can arrive. Necro should be the BEST class at “waiting for help”. This aren’t the case currently. Thieves can delay defeat just fine, while the necro would die pretty quickly against multiple foes at once.

Rennoko.5731:

As a condition necro, I can tell you the ability to dodge out of roots would make my month. Getting rooted by a ranger is instant death when you don’t deal enough direct damage to kill the roots and your condition clears are on cooldown/buried behind other conditions.

It is also a huge nerf to immobilize and any build that relies on it (well builds), and is an indirect buff to classes that have lots of endurance regen. You now only have warhorn’s daze to try to keep people in your wells, since they can just roll out of the well with immobilize on.

Also, that thief example only works in WvW because of culling, otherwise thieves would be far more prevalent in tournaments because they could murder a player, get out, get their CDs, and come back. But the reality is that the only reason they can do that in WvW is because of the bonus “stealth” they get from culling. If it wasn’t for that, the thief would get murdered when they came out of stealth, which is what happens in tournament team fights.

Rennoko.5731:

CHIPS.6018:

Kravick.4906:

Bhawb.7408:

Kravick.4906:

No one is talking about sPvP. There is a reason very few people play sPvP any more.

I already said why leaving fights was stupid in WvW objectives. You give the enemy team free supply, free siege, free keeps, etc. So to change it; congrats, you left the fight so now you have to siege your own tower, or congrats, you left a supply camp so the enemy team has a brand new golem that they didn’t have to do anything for. Its worse in WvW than sPvP because a flip takes a hell of a lot more time to reverse, whereas in sPvP it is just a few points.

Yeah you don’t play WvW very much. This isn’t how WvW works at all. At least not in the top 3 tiers.

Seriously, since when do people solo cap keeps and towers? Who solo caps camps? I get the impression you’ve lost what we’re talking about some where.

Many other classes can solo and roam no problem. Thieves and eles have no problem doing that. All classes can solo a camp, including necro. I mean come on they are just a bunch of AI controlled NPCs.

Of course, soloing a camp AND then building a golem on the spot by yourself is a bit far fetched… >_>

Anyways the problem happens when your necro gets discovered by an enemy or enemies. Thieves and eles in your shoes have a good chance of getting away. Your necro can’t.

Also some food for though (not to go too negative):

Ask yourself who would be better at defending a supply camp against 3 people attacking it. A thief of a necro?

The class that can burst 15k and then go invisible/untargettable back behind the NPCs? Or the guy that gets rushed and bursted down while the NPC’s kitten around?

The very definition of necro suggests that we would be the best bet in that scenario. I would be willing to wager that most of you would have a harder time taking that camp from a thief than a necro, playing as any class.

EDIT: My goodness…. the word D to the ERP is censored? I wasn’t aware that was offensive.

Yeah, the filter system is crazy hardcore.

As for your question, I think both classes would be equal headaches. Both have the NPCs to hide behind, but the thief would drop far faster to a single well-placed immobilize than the Necromancer would. One would run in and out to burst down individual attackers, the other would wear down the entire group given enough time.

Bhawb.7408:

Note about how Necros should be able to lock down even RTL eles: the problem is that for some classes, they are balanced around using things like stealth and blinks for survivability, namely thieves and mesmers. While it would be nice to lock down an RTL ele, it is somewhat problematic to introduce that ability without really hurting how thieves and mesmers can perform against necros.

I was actually really concerned by what they said in the SotG though, about dodging while immobilized.

But snaring skills are useless if they do not do their job. We are talking about 3/8 classes (ele, thief, mes) here. That’s roughly 40% of all enemies that a necro would face.

At the same time those other classes that are “weak” against snares rarely roams. Very rarely in wvw do you see a warrior or ranger roaming by himself. And they can usually remove conditions so quickly it aren’t funny. They also have awesome healing skills and buffs to keep them alive. And the long cool downs of our snares prevents us from catching them neither. So at the end necro catch almost no one.

So we have the usual roamers “immune” to snares. And the other classes rarely roam. So what good are snares? They are nearly useless in zerg vs zerg fights. The KING of snares, when snares in the game is useless, is still useless. It is like being the king of the Vikings, when Vikings no longer exist.

To simplify, anti-snares in this game is much stronger than snaring skills. And that’s the problem.

I think here is where the pro-buff camp and anti-buff camp of the necro comes full circle. It came down to something like this:

P: Buff snares.
A: No. Certain classes relies on those anti-snares for survival.
P: Fine. Buff our mobility so we can keep up.
A: No. Necro is not supposed to be highly mobile. They are attrition.
P: Fine. Buff our damage avoidance.
A: No. Necro is supposed to take every hit head on. Its their class design.
P: But without damage avoidance how can we be attrition?
A: Because we got DS which is awesome.
P: No it isn’t!
A: Yes it is!
P: No it isn’t!
A: Yes it is!
P: No it isn’t!
A: Yes it is!

:D

@Krav, you countered my point that a stealth burst thief that can do high damage and get out isn’t as prevalent in tournaments because they can’t do what they can in WvW, by posting a video of a non stealth thief, with basically no burst damage? Its like saying trying to prove minion master necromancers are amazing in WvW zergs by posting a video of a conditionmancer.

@Chips, my point was that if you introduced a mechanic that made it super easy to snare an RTL elementalist from getting away, you possibly introduce a mechanic that totally poops on two classes entire way of surviving. It would be like if ANet gave someone an ability that removed even non-boon buffs, and that ability also worked on Death Shroud. So someone could just pull us out of death shroud whenever they wanted, completely negating our main defense.

I do agree that snaring skills are useless if they don’t snare, it is why I’m really worried about the immobilize thing, I was just trying to make the point that being able to lock down everyone could introduce balance issues.

Bhawb.7408:

Also, that thief example only works in WvW because of culling, otherwise thieves would be far more prevalent in tournaments because they could murder a player, get out, get their CDs, and come back. But the reality is that the only reason they can do that in WvW is because of the bonus “stealth” they get from culling. If it wasn’t for that, the thief would get murdered when they came out of stealth, which is what happens in tournament team fights.

I wouldn’t say that it only works in WvW because of culling. It works because there are NPC’s that can stun and immobilize, and if the thief times his attack right, he can down, and then free-stealth-stomp. Culling doesn’t come into play at a camp with 4 total player characters involved. The advantage of the camp NPC’s is that they have lots of HP, and they stun, blind, immobilize. That works great off an opportunistic class. They won’t save a necro, but they will screw up and damage someone enough for a thief to burst them down, and then he can save himself.

And I never base any arguments of Spvp. Thieves are 100% fine there.. and no one disputes that practically. But a large share of the community doesn’t spvp (no sense of progression, big guild feel). I mean heck, they had to make paid tournaments free because so few people were doing them. That doesn’t suggest a healthy section of the game.

You won’t base an argument off of sPvP, but you will base it off of a game mode with culling, NPCs, and rarely any sense of fairness? That is why I base more of my arguments of PvP off of an sPvP environment, because if you really want accurate comparisons in WvW, you need to completely constrain a ton of variables that will never really be constrained that way in reality.

In sPvP you can assume that even encounters are not just possible, but likely. 1v1s on equal footing are very common, in fact in near point bunkering it is the main thing you will encounter. In WvW, the only time a fair encounter will happen is if both people are level 80, with the same gear levels, food, no NPCs to help, nowhere to run and hide (like a tower), no running away because there are 50 people coming soon. It is incredibly rare that you will actually get fair encounters in WvW, and so you can’t really base an argument off of it. You can certainly argue who is the best in such an environment (thieves), but that doesn’t make them a better class, it means they are better at abusing the unfairness of the situation.

Rennoko.5731:

And I never base any arguments of Spvp. Thieves are 100% fine there.. and no one disputes that practically. But a large share of the community doesn’t spvp (no sense of progression, big guild feel). I mean heck, they had to make paid tournaments free because so few people were doing them. That doesn’t suggest a healthy section of the game.

Yet 99% of the balancing feels like it is coming from there, and that’s where the disconnect is. Heck they’ve made changes to some individual class mechanics that would definitely make sense to carry over for WvW, but don’t apply them due to PVE I guess. There must be a way to separate PVE and WvW if they are ever going to get where we need to be.

Bhawb.7408:

You won’t base an argument off of sPvP, but you will base it off of a game mode with culling, NPCs, and rarely any sense of fairness? That is why I base more of my arguments of PvP off of an sPvP environment, because if you really want accurate comparisons in WvW, you need to completely constrain a ton of variables that will never really be constrained that way in reality.

In sPvP you can assume that even encounters are not just possible, but likely. 1v1s on equal footing are very common, in fact in near point bunkering it is the main thing you will encounter. In WvW, the only time a fair encounter will happen is if both people are level 80, with the same gear levels, food, no NPCs to help, nowhere to run and hide (like a tower), no running away because there are 50 people coming soon. It is incredibly rare that you will actually get fair encounters in WvW, and so you can’t really base an argument off of it. You can certainly argue who is the best in such an environment (thieves), but that doesn’t make them a better class, it means they are better at abusing the unfairness of the situation.

I don’t disagree with any of this, but by that extension why play necro at all? If it is clearly at a strong disadvantage is the majority of WvW encounters, why play it?

Wouldn’t it be better if they made the class more viable in more situations? If there are 100 possible random encounters based off a number of variables, and the mobile classes win 90 out of 100, why not alter the class that is losing 90/100 of those encounters to win 25/75.

There are ways to improve balance in WvW, without just throwing up your hands and calling in an imbalanced environment by design. You don’t even need to carry over those improvements to Spvp if they would cause the imbalance to shift there. Rip the two apart and improve that part of this game (WvW).

Indeed. It won’t stop unhappy players from quitting a game by telling them “Oh the mode you play isn’t truly competitive, so we don’t care about balance there”.

And actually I think the danger is far greater on that side for class imbalance than sPVP as far as retention. sPVP players are there to win and most will switch to whatever professions are needed for their team to do better. If one profession stinks at the top they don’t really care, move to what is working or changing in the meta.

PVE and WvW players are not like that so much, they are more prone to have picked a profession based on aesthetics or style (and of course you have to level it). Which is not to say they don’t care about winning or will accept getting stomped into the ground everytime they run into X vs Y. They are just far less likely to adjust by rerolling what is more effective. Some will certainly, and you see a ton of thieves, and DD eles in WvW, but many more just won’t play the game mode as much.

Kravick.4906:

Talentless.5708:

This is not an kitten contest. Play a necro right and you will be fine. Even talentless noobs can play this class and make walmart special videos from just an hour or two WvW this afternoon:

I’m really not sure what you’re trying to prove linking this. These are very poor examples of good PVP. This was nothing but a montage of you 2v1ing people and killing up levels.

Meanwhile…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XubClqLgJnY

Finally got the time to watch that video. At 12:10 ish he was saying “When you take a big blast like that, you have to realize and shadow step away.”

LMAO. Wish we can do something like that.

Throughout that video, only that single ele provide him with any sort of 1v1 challenge. All other fights are so outclassed it aren’t funny. Without numbers on their side, none of those other fights would be worth mentioning.

I don’t think necros are at a disadvantage in a majority of situations, I think they are at a disadvantage in 1v1 in WvW against the common 1v1 classes, which I think are largely contrived scenarios (WvW doesn’t seem meant to have 1v1s, it seems build around varying sizes of groups from 5+).

That said, I do still hope they do something about mobility in the current meta. It really just is too strong in PvP and WvW. I think they should give us some kind of blink or RTL style ability to disengage a fight, and I recall them saying that a profession was getting a portal soon (fingers crossed).

CHIPS.6018:

Finally got the time to watch that video. At 12:10 ish he was saying “When you take a big blast like that, you have to realize and shadow step away.”

LMAO. Wish we can do something like that.

^Well Plague form is a great getaway crutch for us – except it doesn’t stop immobilize…. and you don’t have access to your utilities in plague to actually remove it. So while you can sit and take a beatdown from 5 or 10 players for many seconds, that’s exactly what you will do, get beat in place till you are dead. Seems typical of a lot of our issues.

That’s where something like Mist Form, Blinks, or even Endure Pain is so much better vs large numbers. Our high toughness, health, or death shroud, simply doesn’t scale as a defense as # of opponents increase.

Plague form is just a stronger version of what we can already do. There needs to be some way to help us get away from a fight more than just dropping a bunch of marks and running away.

Dark Path back to a teleport, let it aoe bleed and chill on landing to keep its current offensive utility. This change would actually make Jon Peters salesmanship about Death Shroud a little less humorous.

A while back in an interview discussing Mesmer Portal, and how it made the Mesmer too unique in that utility in WvW, they discussed perhaps giving other classes similar skills to balance it out. Imagine if we got some kind of party based spectral transport skill.

Kravick.4906:

Who solo caps camps? I get the impression you’ve lost what we’re talking about some where.

I solo camps with my condition necro in a tier 1 server, (jade quarry), it’s not a big deal,

Back on topic…

50% of the classes in this game have no chance to escape from me, and I mean “no chance at all”, (warriors // guardians // necros and engineers),

25% are able to escape sometimes, (rangers with leaps or entangle and mesmers with teleport),

The last 25%, (thief and d/d ele), will likely be able to scape,

All that we need to be a great attrition class is a reliable dark path,

Engels.8537:

Kravick.4906:

Who solo caps camps? I get the impression you’ve lost what we’re talking about some where.

I solo camps with my condition necro in a tier 1 server, (jade quarry), it’s not a big deal,

Back on topic…

50% of the classes in this game have no chance to escape from me, and I mean “no chance at all”, (warriors // guardians // necros and engineers),

25% are able to escape sometimes, (rangers with leaps or entangle and mesmers with teleport),

The last 25%, (thief and d/d ele), will likely be able to scape,

All that we need to be a great attrition class is a reliable dark path,

Sounds good, but not good enough for the BEST snaring class in the game. ^^

What is the point of attrition in a game where a PVP fight can be over in seconds thanks to rampaging spikers? The only ones that can possibly the taken down by attrition are bunkers, and ANet are nerfing them left and right.

Engels.8537:

Kravick.4906:

Who solo caps camps? I get the impression you’ve lost what we’re talking about some where.

I solo camps with my condition necro in a tier 1 server, (jade quarry), it’s not a big deal,

Back on topic…

50% of the classes in this game have no chance to escape from me, and I mean “no chance at all”, (warriors // guardians // necros and engineers),

25% are able to escape sometimes, (rangers with leaps or entangle and mesmers with teleport),

The last 25%, (thief and d/d ele), will likely be able to scape,

All that we need to be a great attrition class is a reliable dark path,

Its pretty easy to get away from a necro with my engineer. I have supply crate which I can drop on your head, blunder, net shot etc… then drop an elixir then run off.

Also add me to the list of necros liking to solo camps.

CHIPS.6018:

Engels.8537:

50% of the classes in this game have no chance to escape from me, and I mean "no chance at all", (warriors // guardians // necros and engineers),

25% are able to escape sometimes, (rangers with leaps or entangle and mesmers with teleport),

The last 25%, (thief and d/d ele), will likely be able to scape,

All that we need to be a great attrition class is a reliable dark path,

Sounds good, but not good enough for the BEST snaring class in the game. ^^

Im pretty sure we aint supposed to actually snare, just force *cough dark path, spectral grasp, etc* the enemy to be close to you.

Andele.1306:

CHIPS.6018:

Engels.8537:

50% of the classes in this game have no chance to escape from me, and I mean “no chance at all”, (warriors // guardians // necros and engineers),

25% are able to escape sometimes, (rangers with leaps or entangle and mesmers with teleport),

The last 25%, (thief and d/d ele), will likely be able to scape,

All that we need to be a great attrition class is a reliable dark path,

Sounds good, but not good enough for the BEST snaring class in the game. ^^

Im pretty sure we aint supposed to actually snare, just force cough dark path, spectral grasp, etc the enemy to be close to you.

In theory they are designed to do that, in the actual pratice (unless they are not standing still) they fail at 90% rate.

Andele.1306:

in terms of real pvp i only hotjoin from time to time…

Love it when people say “real pvp” as in fact sPvP is anything but “real pvp”. How is it that sPvP is real pvp? From my years of MMO pvp is player vs player. And by that one means killing another player vs pvE which is killing a mob. sPvP in GW2 can have very little about killing someone else. As long as you can prevent the other team from standing in a circle longer than your team does you win. You don’t have to kill them to achieve this. Same with WvW as objective of that is to kill a mob in the end then stand in a circle to timer counts down.

So saying sPvP is “real pvp” is just not true.

Only in hotjoins do you end up having any sPvP that doesn’t heavily involve PvP, and that is just because people will run around capping in a circle. In tournaments, every point is going to be occupied, and you are going to be fighting for a fair amount of the time.

WvW is PvE mixed with PvP. You cannot possibly win WvW unless you play the PvE aspect of it.

So sPvP is the closest thing to “pure” PvP there is in this game.

digiowl.9620:

What is the point of attrition in a game where a PVP fight can be over in seconds thanks to rampaging spikers? The only ones that can possibly the taken down by attrition are bunkers, and ANet are nerfing them left and right.

There is attrition in this game. The problem is they are reserved for classes with damage avoidance. For example look at Yishis’ thief vs ele fight. Both side got damage avoidance. So the fight lasted pretty long.

If you have to face tank all the blast damage, like the necro, you won’t survive for long. There is no way your healing can make up for your losses. So it doesn’t really matter how much hp+LF you got. You still die eventually, while the enemy with less health but avoiding all your attacks would survive.

Other than defence we can also talk about offence. Against these high mobility or stealthy classes, unless you snare them, you only have a few seconds to land 5k of damage. If you cannot do that, you can never kill them.

Necro obviously cannot land 5k of damage in a few seconds, at least not on a consistent basis. So to balance we are supposed to be the BEST snaring class, to keep these high mobility/stealthy classes nearby. We are supposed to be able to force the enemy into close quarter combat, where even our dagger can hit on a consistent basis. But as shown, it is far from the case.

Pendragon.8735:

Dark Path back to a teleport, let it aoe bleed and chill on landing to keep its current offensive utility. This change would actually make Jon Peters salesmanship about Death Shroud a little less humorous.

A while back in an interview discussing Mesmer Portal, and how it made the Mesmer too unique in that utility in WvW, they discussed perhaps giving other classes similar skills to balance it out. Imagine if we got some kind of party based spectral transport skill.

It makes more sense if they give us an offensive portal. That means portal-ing enemies to the necro at any time the necro wants. That way we would truly be “hard to get away from”.

New elite skill: Seal

For 60 seconds, this skill does nothing. When you use the alternative skill to the seal, the target enemy is portal-ed to you regardless of where he is.

So let’s say you put a Seal on an enemy just outside of a tower. He runs into the tower to hide. You use the alternative skill of the Seal, and YAHOO he is forced back to where you are.

While that would be incredibly entertaining, I don’t see them doing that when we already have Grasp, I find it more likely that they would make Grasp more reliable before giving us a new skill that has almost the exact same utility.

Bhawb.7408:

While that would be incredibly entertaining, I don’t see them doing that when we already have Grasp, I find it more likely that they would make Grasp more reliable before giving us a new skill that has almost the exact same utility.

Or just make grasp a forced shadowstep to you instead of projectile drag, we would lose our krait RP power, but it would still be one of the best things they could do with it.

Thats what I meant by more reliable; not necessarily that they keep it as a projectile, but just keep the utility (1200 range pull, chills, 10% LF) and then do whatever they want with making it a more effective tool at that pull.

Moddo.7105:

Andele.1306:

in terms of real pvp i only hotjoin from time to time…

Love it when people say “real pvp” as in fact sPvP is anything but “real pvp”. How is it that sPvP is real pvp? From my years of MMO pvp is player vs player. And by that one means killing another player vs pvE which is killing a mob. sPvP in GW2 can have very little about killing someone else. As long as you can prevent the other team from standing in a circle longer than your team does you win. You don’t have to kill them to achieve this. Same with WvW as objective of that is to kill a mob in the end then stand in a circle to timer counts down.

So saying sPvP is “real pvp” is just not true.

PvP not PKing, big difference, everyone who remembers or knows MMO history for about 17 years knows why WvWvW cannot count as true Player vs Player (hell even some of the maps tech seen cant because of secondary objective strength).

Andele.1306:

Bhawb.7408:

While that would be incredibly entertaining, I don’t see them doing that when we already have Grasp, I find it more likely that they would make Grasp more reliable before giving us a new skill that has almost the exact same utility.

Or just make grasp a forced shadowstep to you instead of projectile drag, we would lose our krait RP power, but it would still be one of the best things they could do with it.

It would be cool if they switch Grasp into a forced shadowstep. It would be even better if they add a part 2 into it. Part 1 cast Grasp on target. If it hits you can use part 2, which shadowstep target foe to you.

What does that mean? That mean you can now combo. For example Grasp 1 + Run back a bit + Summon Bone Minions + Grasp 2 + Putrid Explosion.

If Dark Path was changed into a Judge’s Intervention-esque ability I would bloody wet myself in happiness and never complain about disengagements again.

Really like the ideas you have all laid out here. I agree, that our class has mobility/disengagement issues, but unforuntately, here is why anet will do NOTHING to increase our skills as we have suggested above.

This game is balanced around 5 v 5 spvp. What does that mean? It means ikittenv5 situation, in their pitiful small pvp maps where people are FORCED into confrontation over points (you have to engage to take/keep the point) the necro has a slight advantage, because we can drop good aoe/light cc in the kill zone (as they referred to it in the state of the game vid, and it works well in spvp because people HAVE to get into your kill zone). Who cares if the class disengages, you cap/keep the point. The mobility/disengagement issues are not evident in spvp, which is why you will see spvp’r say that our class is perfectly fine. IT is, in spvp (5v5). It is a great class and they chose to balance the classes around it, vice the WvW. If you want my honest opinion, they will lose players hands down if they continue with that mentality when ESO and camelot unchained come out and true RvR (which keeps players longtime) comes out.

If WvW (RvR) mobility and stability are the kings (two things the necro has limted to no access to). A class like the mesmer, with HIGH burst, Stealth, and HUGE amounts of low cooldown evade skills, will rule. Classes with burst like the thief, come in handy as well, in small confrontations, and can get out with shadowstep/stealth. Disengaging in a WvW fight is important, if you get overwhelmed. Let’s face it, a necro, once it engages, it cannot disengage (unless you wasted a slot for the wurm). On the other side of the coin, if you want to disengage when fighting a necro its easy. Ele – RTL; Warrior- Greatsword 3, deselect target – greatsword 5, switch weapons – sword – 3; thief – shadowstep – invis (lets call it invis, because its not stealth, its invis), run away; etc. etc. Necro has none of these options to disengage..

With regard to stability, you either have to trait it, and i dont know many builds I like where I go 30 points into a trait line to get a skill that is mediocre. Well, you can also switch to lich form.. hmmm, HUGE target (LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME, IM A GLOWING kitten) with NO access to heal skills, and you can still get immobilized. Plague form… in a lage confrontation plague can make you tough, hard to hit, and can blind/slow the surround mob. it may allow you to get out of the front lines and retreat back a bit. not a bad option and likely the one MOST of us run in wvw for that reason. BUT, it slows you, and people can just move to range and hit you while you slowly try to run away.

It is clear, simly, evident, that the devs had NO idea what they were doing with necro when it comes to WvW, nor do they care. I am of the camp that says necro is perfectly fine in Spvp, but disadvantaged in wvw confrontations. Perhaps not in large scale because you have some survivability when the zergs clash you can likely stay alive enough to get out of the aoe-mid zone. But, you get rooted (without the consume condition/dodge combo) you are D.E.D dead. You get caught out in the middle by a few people, you’re done. you engage, more come, your done. you engage, people want out, simple, they run away.

But back to my point… anet does not care, nor will they add anything to help the necro in wvw, because it will reflect in spvp (where we are fine) and make everyone cry OP! Meanwhile they basically fawn all over their lovely op creation which they call the mesmer, and to which i refer to kitten the jumping evading kitten cannon of frustration.

Gryph.8237:

Who cares if the class disengages, you cap/keep the point.

I care and this is not 100% true.
You say this because you just take into account only fights that take place over a point.

But what if i want to prevent a roamer thief to roam?
Or i want to prevent a early killsteal on Svanir running toward an enemy killstealer?
Or i want to cut off reinforcement fighting them just outside their spawn place?
Or i want to stop a d/d ele to run away with his orb (yeah, ride the lighting DOESN’T make eles drop the orb, ignoring with a single button smash the 40% movement impairmant granted by the orb)?
What if i want to FORCE them to fight AWAY from the points acting as a “interceptor”, so my mates can just sit on/cap a point?

I say this because that’s should the role for a master of attrition: force people to fight you in unconvenient places, slowing them down, changing the just fight over the point mentality.
Now necromancers can’t do this because:

At the moment attrition based opponents are like an encounter you can just skip in a dungeon! :P

Just like in a football match, i want my opponent away from my penalty area, not inside

Tiborb.1453:

…

Then play a roaming class. You are obviously looking for a roamer build, which is something that necromancers are not, at the moment. You are looking for a thief or elementalist.

Bhawb.7408:

Tiborb.1453:

…

Then play a roaming class. You are obviously looking for a roamer build, which is something that necromancers are not, at the moment. You are looking for a thief or elementalist.

He’s got ya there. In sPvP a class reroll is about 5 minutes away.

Bhawb.7408:

Tiborb.1453:

…

Then play a roaming class. You are obviously looking for a roamer build, which is something that necromancers are not, at the moment. You are looking for a thief or elementalist.

Nope.
I wanna play the necro the way he should work. The way ArenaNet say he should be.

And a simple roamer don’t do what i’ve described.
A roamer kill. I don’t want a high spike/killer class. I want a attrition necro that “lock” a player down. If i kill someone they will just come back in few seconds.
I’m looking for a necro.

Gryph.8237:

Really like the ideas you have all laid out here. I agree, that our class has mobility/disengagement issues, but unforuntately, here is why anet will do NOTHING to increase our skills as we have suggested above.

This game is balanced around 5 v 5 spvp. What does that mean? It means ikittenv5 situation, in their pitiful small pvp maps where people are FORCED into confrontation over points (you have to engage to take/keep the point) the necro has a slight advantage, because we can drop good aoe/light cc in the kill zone (as they referred to it in the state of the game vid, and it works well in spvp because people HAVE to get into your kill zone). Who cares if the class disengages, you cap/keep the point. The mobility/disengagement issues are not evident in spvp, which is why you will see spvp’r say that our class is perfectly fine. IT is, in spvp (5v5). It is a great class and they chose to balance the classes around it, vice the WvW. If you want my honest opinion, they will lose players hands down if they continue with that mentality when ESO and camelot unchained come out and true RvR (which keeps players longtime) comes out.

If WvW (RvR) mobility and stability are the kings (two things the necro has limted to no access to). A class like the mesmer, with HIGH burst, Stealth, and HUGE amounts of low cooldown evade skills, will rule. Classes with burst like the thief, come in handy as well, in small confrontations, and can get out with shadowstep/stealth. Disengaging in a WvW fight is important, if you get overwhelmed. Let’s face it, a necro, once it engages, it cannot disengage (unless you wasted a slot for the wurm). On the other side of the coin, if you want to disengage when fighting a necro its easy. Ele – RTL; Warrior- Greatsword 3, deselect target – greatsword 5, switch weapons – sword – 3; thief – shadowstep – invis (lets call it invis, because its not stealth, its invis), run away; etc. etc. Necro has none of these options to disengage..

With regard to stability, you either have to trait it, and i dont know many builds I like where I go 30 points into a trait line to get a skill that is mediocre. Well, you can also switch to lich form.. hmmm, HUGE target (LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME, IM A GLOWING kitten) with NO access to heal skills, and you can still get immobilized. Plague form… in a lage confrontation plague can make you tough, hard to hit, and can blind/slow the surround mob. it may allow you to get out of the front lines and retreat back a bit. not a bad option and likely the one MOST of us run in wvw for that reason. BUT, it slows you, and people can just move to range and hit you while you slowly try to run away.

It is clear, simly, evident, that the devs had NO idea what they were doing with necro when it comes to WvW, nor do they care. I am of the camp that says necro is perfectly fine in Spvp, but disadvantaged in wvw confrontations. Perhaps not in large scale because you have some survivability when the zergs clash you can likely stay alive enough to get out of the aoe-mid zone. But, you get rooted (without the consume condition/dodge combo) you are D.E.D dead. You get caught out in the middle by a few people, you’re done. you engage, more come, your done. you engage, people want out, simple, they run away.

But back to my point… anet does not care, nor will they add anything to help the necro in wvw, because it will reflect in spvp (where we are fine) and make everyone cry OP! Meanwhile they basically fawn all over their lovely op creation which they call the mesmer, and to which i refer to kitten the jumping evading kitten cannon of frustration.

While necro might be “fine” in spvp, they are still not fulfilling the original class vision, which is “hard to get away from”. It is the game design of spvp that’s forcing the enemies to stay in an area, not the abilities of the necro itself. So while “game balance” in spvp is fine, the “class design” is not fine.

Tiborb.1453:

Bhawb.7408:

Tiborb.1453:

…

Then play a roaming class. You are obviously looking for a roamer build, which is something that necromancers are not, at the moment. You are looking for a thief or elementalist.

Nope.
I wanna play the necro the way he should work. The way ArenaNet say he should be.

And a simple roamer don’t do what i’ve described.
A roamer kill. I don’t want a high spike/killer class. I want a attrition necro that “lock” a player down. If i kill someone they will just come back in few seconds.
I’m looking for a necro.

Again, you are looking for a roamer. No one says you have to kill an enemy the second they are downed, hit them with an attack every few seconds, and dance around their body while they slowly degen to death.

1) There will never be something introduced to the game that can keep thieves locked down except death, unless you can catch them out of stealth, and there is no reason for a thief to want to fight you at the spawn, so they will just shadowstep past you.
2)Necromancers will never be fast enough to intercept an enemy roamer.
3) RTL on eles is just broken right now, everyone agrees that. It isn’t up to necromancers to counter a broken mechanic.
4) Why would you try to lock people down in open territory, when necromancers fight at our best when someone is forced to stay in a small circle?
5) The current meta does not use classes that are lock-downable. They use thieves and eles, who are going to blink past you before you get the chance to fight.

Again, you are listing out things that a roamer does, so why don’t you actually pick up a class that is good at roaming, so you can roam with it? Necromancers have their place, but roaming will never be it, at best we might become counter-roamers.

Thief and eles are this way thanks to leaps and ride the lightning, and we have discussed about that in this topic.

Bhawb.7408:

at best we might become counter-roamers.

Just what i’ve said.