Guild Wars 2

Correct me if I’m wrong but right now only vampiric traits heal in shroud right?
With the huge amount of sustain/healing the other classes have access to, we totally need to be allowed all forms of heals to affect us while we are in shroud too.
Its not even OP now, its the bare minimum to survive better.

Query: does transfusion grandmaster trait in blood magic line heal yourself or heal your allies only?

Your allies only

Ill be a lot more happier if:
- Regeneration heals in shroud.
- % of direct heals from your skills, traits or from allies is convert into LF. Maybe something like 1% lf per 500Hp healed. Or this even can be a master trait.

Transfusion heals allies only but it is Necromancer’s very best support skill.

Building around it, though, is a huge nerf in damage output. I use it in PvE event zergs and end up spending a lot of time res’ing. It is supremely useful when there is an abundance of firepower. However, the fact that Necromancer cannot receive healing when healing or res’ing players in shroud is the same old complaint as 4 years ago. I may have been reduced to 5% health by a major AoE and am still at 5% when I exit while other players have already burned their spike heals.

Necromancer should receive a portion of AoE heals while in shroud, or siphon a small percentage of other players’ heals. This ability should be a core skill not dependent on trait lines.

While I am at it, Necromancer should also offer an AoE toughness bonus for allies in close proximity as a minor in Death Magic.

Too much of Necromancer is still designed around solo, selfish play.

I could see where it’d get OP if ally heals/regen worked on us while we were in shroud, but they could at least compromise and have them like regenerate our life force a comparable amount or something.

This isn’t the correct call by any measure. We don’t need to allow full healing through shroud at all, what we need is for sustain to not be so powerful among other sources. People constantly complain about how “HoT brought so much power creep into the game”, but then people like you say things along the lines of “my ability is weaker than this other stuff, so it needs BUFFS!” rather than saying “my ability is worse than these other super-powered things, so I think they should be brought back a bit”.

Necromancer being choked on Life Force or sustain sources in general wouldn’t be an issue if other classes weren’t capable of sustaining so heavily. Even putting aside the now-ironic thematic concept that Necromancer was supposed to be the “Attrition class”, other classes being able to heal so effectively while committing so little to doing so is what’s wrong with the game.

Blighter’s Boon got changed because it effectively made Reaper’s immortal. Full healing through Shroud would end up with even greater sustain than that was, since the same classes that fart boons at high frequency also are simultaneously putting out AoE heals of larger amounts than Blighter’s Boon gave.

So no, we definitely do not need full healing through Shroud. Additional sources? Sure. Let’s start with any lifesteal effect (so sigils and Vampirism runes) and the Regeneration boon?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Blighter’s Boon got changed because it effectively made Reaper’s immortal. Full healing through Shroud would end up with even greater sustain than that was, since the same classes that fart boons at high frequency also are simultaneously putting out AoE heals of larger amounts than Blighter’s Boon gave.

So no, we definitely do not need full healing through Shroud. Additional sources? Sure. Let’s start with any lifesteal effect (so sigils and Vampirism runes) and the Regeneration boon?

and that trait was the proof that boon application by other clases was out of hand, an easy fix to the trait was to give it some sort of limit or cooldown

Necessary now?
lol it’s been necessary since day 1 of the game.

And everyone who still argues otherwise (sorry Drarnor…) doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

Btw, Blighter’s Boon in its op version was indeed too heavy. But why would you believe that healing for every single boon your allies give you would be similar to the actual ally healing you’re missing out on in team fights? (spoiler alert: it’s much less.)

It’s always been necessary. Death shroud isn’t anything special, its a weak damage sponge that does less damage than being out of shroud, and when you come out of shroud most people have wasted their heals already and you won’t get healed back up.

Their design is pathetically negligent. I mean, death shroud completely undermines what druids bring to healing, or tempest water fields and heal shouts.

Necromancers are among the easiest classes to focus down and blow up.

All healing should not be allowed in DS. However, all lifesteal should. Lifesteal as a whole should be more utilized.

Ghotistyx.6942:

All healing should not be allowed in DS. However, all lifesteal should. Lifesteal as a whole should be more utilized.

lol, lifesteal is worthless. As if lifestealing 200 hp every few attacks is gonna save you in a zerg or against PvE mobs that hit you for 8k+ damage.

I am not suggesting a full, or even a significant portion, of incoming heals but a small tax on surrounding players’ heal. Necromancer’s “problem” is not sustain, exactly, but being out of phase with a group’s heal cycle.

Something like Unholy Sanctuary that siphons a small fraction of heals from local allies while in shroud would not impact PvP balance. Bleed / corruption builds have lower access to LF so I sincerely doubt something like what I suggest would strengthen that meta build. The trait could even be further limited by only processing during Transfusion or res’ing.

It is not PvP that needs this but PvE and only when a wipe is narrowly avoided. The problem is only when exiting shroud to use my own self-heal close to when the next AoE is coming while my allies have all burned their group support heals. It is literally only from being out of phase with group heal bursts.

Zenith.7301:

Ghotistyx.6942:

All healing should not be allowed in DS. However, all lifesteal should. Lifesteal as a whole should be more utilized.

lol, lifesteal is worthless. As if lifestealing 200 hp every few attacks is gonna save you in a zerg or against PvE mobs that hit you for 8k+ damage.

Trait spite + reaper blighter’s boon, and it’s 200hp every attack, and around 600 every second once it’s hp goes below 50%. If you don’t play like Gohan and learn to doooooodge! then by the time your life force plums down to 0 you’ll have some regular health to work with.

And in normal mode necro is a life stealing machine – dagger #2, signet of the locust, or the mini signet of vampirism from trait..

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Zenith.7301:

Ghotistyx.6942:

All healing should not be allowed in DS. However, all lifesteal should. Lifesteal as a whole should be more utilized.

lol, lifesteal is worthless. As if lifestealing 200 hp every few attacks is gonna save you in a zerg or against PvE mobs that hit you for 8k+ damage.

Trait spite + reaper blighter’s boon, and it’s 200hp every attack, and around 600 every second once it’s hp goes below 50%. If you don’t play like Gohan and learn to doooooodge! then by the time your life force plums down to 0 you’ll have some regular health to work with.

And in normal mode necro is a life stealing machine – dagger #2, signet of the locust, or the mini signet of vampirism from trait..

lol, dagger in group pvp/pve? Please. Can we probably be more useless with that weapon? Let’s damage 2 targets out of 30+, that sounds like a brilliant plan.

flow.6043:

Necessary now?
lol it’s been necessary since day 1 of the game.

And everyone who still argues otherwise (sorry Drarnor…) doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

Btw, Blighter’s Boon in its op version was indeed too heavy. But why would you believe that healing for every single boon your allies give you would be similar to the actual ally healing you’re missing out on in team fights? (spoiler alert: it’s much less.)

No, it’s significantly more.

Let’s take a Cleric’s Tempest, for example. Not relevant anymore, but the numbers are good for comparison.

Old Blighter’s Boon was ~150 heal per boon.

Simply applying an aura (any at all) gives a 1400 heal purely through the Elemental Bastion trait. To make up the same amount, that is ~9 boons that would have needed to be applied. Now, many people running that build also used the Invigorating Torrents trait, which applies Vigor (so, only 8 boons needed to break even) and Regeneration (7 more). But the Regeneration amount was another 1400 heal, taking Blighter’s Boon to a 16 boon deficit in comparison.

These aren’t even counting other heals that the Tempest craps out. “Wash the Pain Away” was popular and was another 4k heal if you only received two pulses (not unrealistic). That is another ~27 boons right there for Blighter’s Boon to break even.

Overload Water, if uninterrupted, results in a total heal amount of 10,968 once traits are taken into account. That is an equivalent of 73 Blighter’s Boon procs. Now, that same Overload does apply three boons, so the difference is only 70 boons.

Do you honestly believe that you would receive that sheer number of boons from other sources? Blighter’s Boon was too strong because of how many boons other professions spam. Yet it’s only a fraction of the healing we actually miss out on.

Now, in comparison, only Druids put out any decent outgoing healing besides Tempests, but they really don’t provide many boons to allies at all. So the discrepancy gets even worse when you consider them.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Do you honestly believe that you would receive that sheer number of boons from other sources?

Yes, easily.
And those are really just other sources, it might be a believable number if you’re talking about the necro alone.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yet it’s only a fraction of the healing we actually miss out on.

Wrong.

1. Like I said before, you’re underestimating the amount of boons.

2. You conveniently forgot to mention that healing skills have cooldowns, while the old Blighter’s didn’t and boon application is of course a lot more frequent.

3. Your entire argumentation is based on the assumption that those heals we’re missing out on are only cast when we’re in Shroud, which of course isn’t true.
We are getting most of those heals now anyway, at least when that ele or druid pays attention to the necros Shroud timings.

And as always: other classes get those heals all the time!

Drarnor: “but, but… that’s completely different when you get healed while your real hp can’t be touched because of Shroud, which is totally different from when other classes dodge or block or are invulnerable!”

No.

Shroud is only different from invuln frames in this respect due to it’s comparatively massive uptime.

But sure, let’s compare actual boon applications, because those do have cooldowns, just like healing skills.

Heralds: on average, you’re looking at about 4 boons/3 seconds from them, and that’s assuming they actually stick on upkeep (they usually do use the actives). Now, a Herald isn’t going to be healing allies aside from the occasional Regeneration application because Ventari just sucks.

“Feel the Burn” is a 25 second cooldown that I have already established is equivalent to 16 boons more than it applies. This isn’t even a skill capable of healing normally, so keep that in mind.

So the healing you get from Herald in full boon spam mode (cutting his actual effectiveness) is about twice that amount (~33 boons in that same 25 seconds). But that’s their cap, and it’s only managing to exceed a single skill that doesn’t naturally heal anyone. A second skill (say Cone of Cold) thrown in starts to exceed it.

You can go through any profession you like for group boon application (hint: Heralds, Tempests, and Guardians are really the only ones that do it consistently, and even Guardians have shifted to be more selfish in PvP) and end up maybe matching two, possibly three lighter healing skills in the same timeframes.

As for “hurr durr, you’re only comparing heals when you’re in shroud” yes. Yes I am, because that is exactly what the topic is. Because whether we receive healing in Shroud or not, the healing we get outside remains the same and is thus a null value for comparison. Plus, Blighter’s Boon only heals when you are in Shroud anyway.

Boon application is indeed out of control, but AoE boons proccing Blighter’s Boon still heal for less than full healing in Shroud would do.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

As for “hurr durr, you’re only comparing heals when you’re in shroud” yes. Yes I am, because that is exactly what the topic is. Because whether we receive healing in Shroud or not, the healing we get outside remains the same and is thus a null value for comparison. Plus, Blighter’s Boon only heals when you are in Shroud anyway.

You totally missed the point I was making.

Yes, the direct comparison of healing values only applies to Shroud vs Shroud.
However, when you factor in cooldowns of healing skills vs possible amount of boons applied in that time frame, you also need to factor in that more often than not other players will wait for you to drop out of Shroud before they try to heal you. And in addition to the fact that people don’t immediately use their heals when they’re off cooldown, you’re really looking at way longer time between missed heals.

Therefore, when you’re talking about one skill that heals for 1.4k or 5k or whatever, you’re probably talking about that amount missed once in 1 minute, which usually exceeds the duration of most team fights.
And in regards to boon application, that also far exceeds the amount of time needed to apply as many boons as you would need according to your calculations.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You can go through any profession you like for group boon application (hint: Heralds, Tempests, and Guardians are really the only ones that do it consistently, and even Guardians have shifted to be more selfish in PvP) and end up maybe matching two, possibly three lighter healing skills in the same timeframes.

Yeah… no.
I’m not sure what kind of matches you’re playing, but people share boons, a lot, and always.
Did you ever look at your party UI in PvP?
In team fights every single player constantly has ~4-6 boon icons, with stacked amounts of course.
2 light heals worth of boons in a team fight? Are you serious? A necro alone was able to do that.

And by “do” I mean it just happened, because there was zero effort involved in sustaining yourself with Blighter’s Boon back then. There wasn’t some strategic planning going on in team chats like: hey our necro is in Shroud, spam ALL the boons now!
No, this just happened with regular skill rotations. And I’m sure the passivity of the trait, unlike actually trying to heal an ally, was part of the reason why it was nerfed.
Furthermore, ally healing is already being timed to coincide with the necro’s Shroud timings if you play with competent enough players. There wouldn’t be significantly more healing if it could go through Shroud. For the most part it would just be a lot easier to coordinate skill rotations.

2 light heals per cooldown cycle, yes. Not “per teamfight.”

Boon sharing happens primarily from Tempests, Chronomancers (which do little team healing), and Heralds. Scrappers have some, but not enough to sustain off of.

There is the coordination issue, sure. But that doesn’t often work. If a Necro is being focused, they have to jump into Shroud to have any chance of survival. Only problem, that’s when you need those heals as well.

A lot more healing gets missed than you think while in Shroud, much of it incidental.

You may not get the Water Overload then, but I doubt a Tempest will hold back on their shouts.

Maybe we should push for something like 25% outright healing through shroud, plus allowing regeneration to work. That way, it’s still pretty minor, but we get something to help us recover despite our “defense”

Zero Solstice.9754:

This isn’t the correct call by any measure. We don’t need to allow full healing through shroud at all, what we need is for sustain to not be so powerful among other sources. People constantly complain about how “HoT brought so much power creep into the game”, but then people like you say things along the lines of “my ability is weaker than this other stuff, so it needs BUFFS!” rather than saying “my ability is worse than these other super-powered things, so I think they should be brought back a bit”.

Necromancer being choked on Life Force or sustain sources in general wouldn’t be an issue if other classes weren’t capable of sustaining so heavily. Even putting aside the now-ironic thematic concept that Necromancer was supposed to be the “Attrition class”, other classes being able to heal so effectively while committing so little to doing so is what’s wrong with the game.

So in other words, one or two things are weak, while many others are strong on account of HoT and your solution is “Nerf them all!” rather than buff the few. K den…..

CynicalFred.9135:

Zero Solstice.9754:

This isn’t the correct call by any measure. We don’t need to allow full healing through shroud at all, what we need is for sustain to not be so powerful among other sources. People constantly complain about how “HoT brought so much power creep into the game”, but then people like you say things along the lines of “my ability is weaker than this other stuff, so it needs BUFFS!” rather than saying “my ability is worse than these other super-powered things, so I think they should be brought back a bit”.

Necromancer being choked on Life Force or sustain sources in general wouldn’t be an issue if other classes weren’t capable of sustaining so heavily. Even putting aside the now-ironic thematic concept that Necromancer was supposed to be the “Attrition class”, other classes being able to heal so effectively while committing so little to doing so is what’s wrong with the game.

So in other words, one or two things are weak, while many others are strong on account of HoT and your solution is “Nerf them all!” rather than buff the few. K den…..

Yeah, it really is. Considering the major overarching complaint of balance is “I hate how strong X is”, the correct answer in my mind is definitely to set a bar, and balance everything to it. Will certain things still be strong/weak? Sure, because that’s the nature of having abilities that do contrasting things. But to a point there isn’t anything fun or special or appreciable about getting 10k crit by an auto-firing ranged ability, or healing for 10k+ from one skill every 20 seconds.

Besides, at the end of the day, most of many things that are strong on account of HoT came out in HoT. Feel free to disagree, I won’t lose sleep.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

2 light heals per cooldown cycle, yes. Not “per teamfight.”

Well, like I said, one heals-missed-cycle isn’t the actual cooldown of the skill because people don’t use their skills immediately and when they do they will try to heal you when you’re actually not in Shroud. Therefore “per cd cylce” usually happens to be “per teamfight” anyway.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

There is the coordination issue, sure. But that doesn’t often work. If a Necro is being focused, they have to jump into Shroud to have any chance of survival. Only problem, that’s when you need those heals as well.

At least we agree on something.
I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t grant necros the ability to receive some heals in those clutch situations. If a necro gets focused hard enough an extra few k healing makes almost no difference anyway.

Vydahr.4285:

Maybe we should push for something like 25% outright healing through shroud

Anything less than 100% is just as bad as getting no healing at all.

This is a matter of principle. Shroud should work properly with the rest of the game, like any other defensive mechanic.

Speaking of a properly working Shroud, there’s still the matter of our life force pool effectively being double of what it’s supposed to be. A bug that has been in the game for years, and clearly something that should be fixed.
Now, I’m not saying that necro would have the same balance with only half their lf pool. But wouldn’t it be nice to finally have a Shroud that displayed the correct amount of life force and allows healing to go through at all times?
If all healing through Shroud worked I would gladly take a big nerf to our lf pool, maybe not -50% but perhaps they could make it the same amount as our actual hp.
Anyway, a completely bug free and game-compatible Shroud, this should be the goal.

flow.6043:

Anyway, a completely bug free and game-compatible Shroud, this should be the goal.

This is what I think should be the disuccion being about. I mean not receiving heals can be not only frustating for you but for your healer. It lowers their effectiveness to a point and that is no fun either for them. Balance should come second place.