Am I missing the condi side of the Scourge?
You’re not overthinking.
The Elite will be a heavy Condition Elite, and should do great DPS. The Grandmaster also increases Torment damage by 33%.
Also in the expansion, from what I’ve seen of the new zone, I see enemies doing way more Boons.
In Fractals Torment will be amazing, because there is a lot of fights with moving enemies and bosses. In Raids it will be a wait and see for the new ones.
If Deathly Chill doesn’t get changed, I still see Scourge being the go to Condition Spec, mainly because of not needing to rely on Combo Fields.
I’m not expecting an extreme amount of Torment damage, but seeing like 12k-14k+ ticks will be seen probably. We will have more access to Burning too, and with Punishments causing our Sand Shades to do Burning when being summoned.
I see the spec being great PvE wise, and see a good DPS side, and support side. Don’t take the current hate talk on it too seriously. It’s not even been tested properly yet, and won’t be until September 22nd.
My concern with Scourge (at least on the condition damage front) is that the new skills all seem extremely reliant on boon corruption to deal damage. No boons, no real damage.
You might have missed that you and your sand shades are supposed to pulse damage and apply torment every time you cast a ‘shade’ ability. The shade abilities are all the shroud replacement abilities, so e.g. when you use Sand Cascade to apply barrier to your teammates, you’re also doing damage to nearby enemies.
There’s a lot of questions still to resolve about scourge. I can see it being good or bad depending on how certain traits behave (e.g. Dhuumfire), and how useful barrier turns out to be. We’ll know more after the preview weekend.
2 seconds of 2 Torment isn’t much. It’s also just your shades that do that attack.
What you are missing is the gap closer and stability. It doesn’t matter how much damage you CAN deal – condi/burst – if you can’t land it.
Record a PvP play session and watch how many times you use shroud 2 and stability. Imagine all that mobility and stability gone and you will be doing 25-100% less damage per fight. Based on what I’ve seen so far, any profession can simply kite a scourge from range or cc chain them and there’s ZERO a scourge can do about it.
Well I’ll definitely take a look at it during the weekend. Right now I have a super fun Bleeding build that I don’t know if I want to give that up for Torment if its not substantial. Especially if the burning dmg is minimal. I guess I should have expected that with the Guardian elite spec coming out though.
Well I’ll definitely take a look at it during the weekend. Right now I have a super fun Bleeding build that I don’t know if I want to give that up for Torment if its not substantial. Especially if the burning dmg is minimal. I guess I should have expected that with the Guardian elite spec coming out though.
Recent patch made torment aswell as confusion have the same base dmg as bleed now. Idk if that makes you feel different about it.
Well I’ll definitely take a look at it during the weekend. Right now I have a super fun Bleeding build that I don’t know if I want to give that up for Torment if its not substantial. Especially if the burning dmg is minimal. I guess I should have expected that with the Guardian elite spec coming out though.
Recent patch made torment aswell as confusion have the same base dmg as bleed now. Idk if that makes you feel different about it.
Only in PvE. PvP has not seen a change in damage.
That’s all good. I don’t PvP. It’s not my thing.
A lot depends on how some of the abilities work together. I mean if you arw talking raids then perma alacrity is a big deal especially with recharge affecting charge timing.
I mean with Sand Savant, Alacrity and Vital Persistance should have a CD of around 6 seconds. With the master trait you are dropping 3x 4s (8s with expertise) burns. Does summoning another shade count as a shade skill use? Does the F1 effect around the Necro proc Dhummfire for a 4th burn?
That test weekend is going to be interesting.
(edited by Maxzero.4032)
Can someone explain me how Demonic Lore works, like if I use scepter 3 and apply 7 torment does that mean I will apply 7 burning as well for 3 sec or just 1 burning for 3 sec?
Can someone explain me how Demonic Lore works, like if I use scepter 3 and apply 7 torment does that mean I will apply 7 burning as well for 3 sec or just 1 burning for 3 sec?
You inflict 3 sec of butn and the trait have an internal CD of 3 seconds.
It’s good but the best of it is the +33% to torment
Can someone explain me how Demonic Lore works, like if I use scepter 3 and apply 7 torment does that mean I will apply 7 burning as well for 3 sec or just 1 burning for 3 sec?
just 1 stack of burn
Ah well I guess it’s kinda lackluster if your enemy isn’t moving.
2 seconds of 2 Torment isn’t much. It’s also just your shades that do that attack.
The attack also procs off yourself too.
Ah well I guess it’s kinda lackluster if your enemy isn’t moving.
They updated Torment so that, in pve, it now deals same damage as bleeding vs non moving foes but slightly less vs moving foes than before.
Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.
Ah well I guess it’s kinda lackluster if your enemy isn’t moving.
torment? They changed torment to do the same damage as bleeding on a stationary target + scourge increases that by another 33%
If you are playing condi-Scourge, you will be running sceptre-torch and using sceptre AA a lot for the bleeds. Scourge will apply a little burning and a more torment but bleeds will still be a large part of your dps.
(PvE) Scepter/Dagger -/Torch with Terrifying Descent, Master of Corruption and Lingering Curse confirmed?
(PvE) Scepter/Dagger -/Torch with Terrifying Descent, Master of Corruption and Lingering Curse confirmed?
With Fell beacon, Sadistic Searing and Demonic Lore. And probably Soul Reaping and Dhuumfire (once we see how it interacts with Scourge).
You could always go Terror + Fear of Death given scourge has a 15s cd on garish pillar for fear.
Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.
(edited by Lahmia.2193)
(PvE) Scepter/Dagger -/Torch with Terrifying Descent, Master of Corruption and Lingering Curse confirmed?
With Fell beacon, Sadistic Searing and Demonic Lore. And probably Soul Reaping and Dhuumfire (once we see how it interacts with Scourge).
You could always go Terror + Fear of Death given scourge has a 15s cd on garish pillar for fear.
Isn’t better to run MoC for Blood is Power and Plaguelands?
I think you will want scourge’s punishments instead of BiP and MoC.
We have to see how the burning application and skill dps will go (torment conversion to burning vs punishment damage + burning application)
Yeah scourge actually doens’t cause much condis at all.
Sand Shades: Cause at maximum 3x Torment for 2 seconds. so total of 6 seconds torment, in the best scenario. Most of the time you will only have up 1 – 2 shades up, due to the cooldowns. With alacrity, you have 2 perma up. Makes an average of 4 ticks of torment damage, per skill cast.
Lets take the skills that cause this attack in consideration. Cooldowns of the shade skills are traited 4 6 12 and 16 seconds So lets assume you cast this skills all on cooldown, and line them up perfectly.
4 sec cooldown = 1 perma stack of torment
6 sec cooldown = 0,67 stacks of torment
12 sec cooldown = 0,33 stacks
16 seconds coolddown = 0,25 stacks
Total, assume you can spam all shroud skills on cooldown (Lifeforce will be a huge problem here) = 2,25 permanent stacks of torment from shade
Shroud skill 5 causes conditions by itself, 2 stacks, for 2 seconds for 7 seconds, each 16 seconds = 1,75 permanent stacks of torment from shroud 5
Torch 4 : 16 second cooldown,traited, 3×3 torment, 3×3,75 burn = 0,56 torment stacks and 0,70 burning stacks
Torch 5: 20 second cooldown traited, 3×6 torment = *0,9 torment
Utilities:
Ghastly Breach, elite skill. Causes in PVE scenarios (no boons here) at least 1×2 burn, 5 times = 10 seconds of burn, thats right, the offensive ultimate, of our condi spec, deals 10 seconds of burn. Cooldown 60 seconds traited equals a mighty 0,17 stacks of permaburn per seconds Lets just “assume” we can corrupt a boon each pulse, 2×4 torment, 5 times = 40 ticks of torment, each 60 seconds equals 0,67 perma torment stacks
Traits: increase our condi duration a bit. The only noteworthy grandmaster trait is * Demonic lore, increasing torment damage by 33% and basicly adds 1 perma stack of burn, if you can trigger it on cooldown.*
Now lets count that all together: 6,13 permanent torment stacks, increased by Demonic Lore equals 8,15 permanent stacks of torment and 1,87 stacks of burn each second.
Of course, these durations get increased by condi duration, alacrity, etc, but these are the baselines. Also we dont know how Dhuumfre interacts.
Just as a comparison base, Revenants mace 3, traited, has a base of
9 stacks torment per second and mace 2 a base of 5,33 burning stacks per second
and that with just 2 skills of their condi weapon, excluded are all utility skills. the rev is yet to receive his condi spec, and his second weapon, but to put this into perspective, i think the damage numbers are WAY off if 2 weapon skills of a core class exceed the entire added damage potential of our so called condition elite spec.
Compare the numbers, these are the base condi values, that all classes can potentialy increase by the same factor (condi duration, condi damage):
Scourge adds 8,15 perma torment and 1,87 perma burn
Revenant adds 9 perma torment and 5,33 perma burn with 2 skills.
Just for fun: Necro Scepter 5,4 perma bleed and 4,2 perma torment with skills 2 and 3, traits considered.
(edited by Brujeria.7536)
(…)
Scourge adds 8,15 perma torment and 1,87 perma burnRevenant adds 9 perma torment and 5,33 perma burn with 2 skills.
Wow, that is really quite disappionting, I guess Scourge condi DPS will be a lot lower than I hoped then.
Most of the time you will only have up 1 – 2 shades up, due to the cooldowns.
You’ve misread how ammo works. There’s no cooldown until you reach the ammo cap for Sand Shade (which is 3). So you can cast all 3, then it has a 15s cooldown and each Shade lasts for 25s. And the sand scourge torment effect comes from you too, so that’s 4 torments max (people will be capping torment duration) for 4s.
Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.
(edited by Lahmia.2193)
Most of the time you will only have up 1 – 2 shades up, due to the cooldowns.
You’ve misread how ammo works. There’s no cooldown until you reach the ammo cap for Sand Shade (which is 3). So you can cast all 3, then it has a 15s cooldown and each Shade lasts for 25s. And the sand scourge torment effect comes from you too, so that’s 4 torments max (people will be capping torment duration) for 4s.
It doesn’t work like that. Watch WPs Video starting at 1hour46min, he casts one shade, then talks, and during this time you can see the border of the F1 fill up and when its full he gets his 3rd ammo back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOr-LO38Mts&t=6694s
Most of the time you will only have up 1 – 2 shades up, due to the cooldowns.
You’ve misread how ammo works. There’s no cooldown until you reach the ammo cap for Sand Shade (which is 3). So you can cast all 3, then it has a 15s cooldown and each Shade lasts for 25s. And the sand scourge torment effect comes from you too, so that’s 4 torments max (people will be capping torment duration) for 4s.
It doesn’t work like that. Watch WPs Video starting at 1hour46min, he casts one shade, then talks, and during this time you can see the border of the F1 fill up and when its full he gets his 3rd ammo back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOr-LO38Mts&t=6694s
Check the current ammo skills in game and you’ll know I am correct.
This just means there is no cool-down between when you can cast your shades. They will still recharge every 15~9s depending on how traits work and alacrity.
Burj did miss the extra stack of torment from the effect actually happening around the necro as well though.
Most of the time you will only have up 1 – 2 shades up, due to the cooldowns.
You’ve misread how ammo works. There’s no cooldown until you reach the ammo cap for Sand Shade (which is 3). So you can cast all 3, then it has a 15s cooldown and each Shade lasts for 25s. And the sand scourge torment effect comes from you too, so that’s 4 torments max (people will be capping torment duration) for 4s.
It doesn’t work like that. Watch WPs Video starting at 1hour46min, he casts one shade, then talks, and during this time you can see the border of the F1 fill up and when its full he gets his 3rd ammo back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOr-LO38Mts&t=6694s
Well I hope anet fixes that. But my point about duration is still valid.
Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.
Maybe they could remove the icd of Demonic Lore in pve only, so that it works the same way like Deathly Chill. Just a thought.
Guys please watch this until 01:46:43
You will notice two things. When he summons a shade it has a small explosion effect around him and the shade. This means two things which make sense based on how
Manifest Sand Shade is worded and how the skill is classified.
It is a shade skill. This means every time you summon a shade you will proc the attack and do the damage and condis including from the shade you just summoned (easily seen in video ). Assuming they all strike and have no cap then the more you summon the more procs you get. e.g summon 1 shade you do 2 hits, summon a second shade you do 3 hits, summon the 3rd shade you do 4 hits. Then every time after you use a shade skill including summoning another shade they, and you, will all strike again.
If they proc dhuumfire then that is a lot of burning output. If they are classed as a shroud skill as well then VP and alacrity will reduce the count recharge to 9s amusing alacrity works on ammo skills.
Same goes for unyielding blast and reapers might possibly.
Since reapers in a state of uncertainty I definitely plan on piecing together a scourge build, and the one I have in mind will make it live up to its name
I just looked at the traits and I’m saving the vids and other stuff for the day it comes out and I pieced a build for it together that way (assuming we don’t get nerfed by Anet again)
Before I had huge doubts about scourge since I pvp, but ever since I went back, analyzed, and looked at what we have now, i must say that….its much more viable than expected
Just crunched the numbers and with Vital Persistence traited, Scourges should be able to hit 100% general Condition Duration in raids. This is without Alacrity, so don’t assume that Soul Reaping will be absolutely necessary.
Full Vipers gear alone is +42.2%
2 Trapper, 4 Nightmare adds +30% (total 72.2%)
Sigil of Malice is +10% (total 82.2%, 100% on Bleeds)
Having 2 Shades up is +10% (total 92.2%, 100% on bleeds) (with Vital Persistence reducing recharge by 20%, 2 shades always up should be simple)
With Torch Trait, another 109 Expertise for +7.266% (total: +99.466%
And with Food, obviously hitting the full 100% with ease.
Just crunched the numbers and with Vital Persistence traited, Scourges should be able to hit 100% general Condition Duration in raids. This is without Alacrity, so don’t assume that Soul Reaping will be absolutely necessary.
Full Vipers gear alone is +42.2%
2 Trapper, 4 Nightmare adds +30% (total 72.2%)
Sigil of Malice is +10% (total 82.2%, 100% on Bleeds)
Having 2 Shades up is +10% (total 92.2%, 100% on bleeds) (with Vital Persistence reducing recharge by 20%, 2 shades always up should be simple)
With Torch Trait, another 109 Expertise for +7.266% (total: +99.466%
And with Food, obviously hitting the full 100% with ease.
I really hope they add a Rune with Condition Damage and Condition Duration. I hate using Nightmare and Trapper.
Krait or Torment may be good Runes in the future. The expansion will probably have best in slot Runes though, so everything now is meh, and will change in 6 weeks.
With Torch Trait, another 109 Expertise for +7.266%
If it’ll be like Guardian’s Kindled Zeal conversion 52,5 expertise will come from 25 might alone
Conversion traits don’t calculate off of temporary stat boosts, usually.
If it turns out this is different, we need to find a better condition damage food than Rare Veggie Pizza.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Guys please watch this until 01:46:43
You will notice two things. When he summons a shade it has a small explosion effect around him and the shade. This means two things which make sense based on how
Manifest Sand Shade is worded and how the skill is classified.It is a shade skill. This means every time you summon a shade you will proc the attack and do the damage and condis including from the shade you just summoned (easily seen in video ). Assuming they all strike and have no cap then the more you summon the more procs you get. e.g summon 1 shade you do 2 hits, summon a second shade you do 3 hits, summon the 3rd shade you do 4 hits. Then every time after you use a shade skill including summoning another shade they, and you, will all strike again.
If they proc dhuumfire then that is a lot of burning output. If they are classed as a shroud skill as well then VP and alacrity will reduce the count recharge to 9s amusing alacrity works on ammo skills.
Same goes for unyielding blast and reapers might possibly.
Sadistic Searing is also interesting for another 4 sec burn on summon.
A punishment heal, elite and Trail of Anguish ahould proc it often especially if you use the big Sand Savant Shade (3 x burns shorter CD).
I don’t think sand shades will ‘stack’. If you have 3 sand shades in the same area and fire off Garish Pillar it won’t hit them 3 times with the fear and it won’t hit them 3 times with the torment/cripple.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
I don’t think sand shades will ‘stack’. If you have 3 sand shades in the same area and fire off Garish Pillar it won’t hit them 3 times with the fear and it won’t hit them 3 times with the torment/cripple.
The Fear definitely won’t stack, but the Torment+Cripple+damage might.
Okay a bit of math and a lot of assumptions.
Note: This is a best case scenario.
Assumptions:
F1 Summon Shade procs Dhuumfire
The F1 effect around Necro also procs Dhuumfire
The Sand Savant super shade counts as 3 Shades for F1 purposes
100% Alacrity uptime
100% expertise
20% CD Vital persistance trait
Sadistic Searing procs 3 × 8s Burning on Shade summon. CD of Shade summon is 6 seconds (Sand Savant, Alacrity, Vital Persistance).
4 perma Burn stacks
F1 Summon Shade
4 × 6s Burns. CD on Summon Shade is 6 seconds
4 perma Burn stacks
F2 Neferious Favor
4 × 6s burn stacks. CD of Favor is 3 seconds.
8 perma Burn stacks
F3 Sand Cascade
4 × 6s Burn stacks. CD of Casade is 4.8 seconds
5 Burn stacks perma
21 perma Burn stacks.
I didn’t model F4 and F5 because I think Lifeforce will be
I suspect you will need Dagger MH as your other weapon for LF generation Scepter/Torch will not nearly be enough.
snip
From the way its worded Sand Savant seems like it will only effect Sand Soul , Desert Empowerment , Unending Corruption and Blood as Sand
Thought I am interested in the wording “You affect more targets and influence a larger area with Shade skills.” since skills all read some iteration of “around you and your sand shades”
Normally summoning 3 shades and yourself should be able to hit 20 targets unless they impose a cap like they did on Coalescence of Ruin. Does this mean taking Sand Savant causes not only one great shade but also yourself to have the larger area of effect and increased target cap?
So many interactions to test and look forward to.
snip
From the way its worded Sand Savant seems like it will only effect Sand Soul , Desert Empowerment , Unending Corruption and Blood as Sand
Thought I am interested in the wording “You affect more targets and influence a larger area with Shade skills.” since skills all read some iteration of “around you and your sand shades”
Normally summoning 3 shades and yourself should be able to hit 20 targets unless they impose a cap like they did on Coalescence of Ruin. Does this mean taking Sand Savant causes not only one great shade but also yourself to have the larger area of effect and increased target cap?
So many interactions to test and look forward to.
From some rough theorycraft going the 3 regular Shades plus Demonic Lore should be the same (if not slightly higher DPS). You have a few less Burns (due to not 100% 3 Shade uptime and less effective Sadistic Searing (the extra Burns from Lore don’t make up for it). The trade off being better Torment damage and slightly better Life force usage.
There is some potential there and the rotation shouldn’t be anything super tricky.
Looking forward to it.
I’m actually really trying to work out whether 3 shades in a triangle covers more area than Shade Savant now.
I did the math and it looks like the area of the Shade Savant is bigger than the 3 shades, including the gap in the middle.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
I’m actually really trying to work out whether 3 shades in a triangle covers more area than Shade Savant now. Is anyone good at geometry :p
It’s a slightly larger area.
But considering you can o my have 2 out permanently then it’s a much smaller area. Smaller still if sand savant affects your character.
Though I suppose the benefit of not taking it is you can cover more directions. E.g. you can cover 2 large areas where you and the savant are (covering the front and backline in WvW for example), or cover 4 slightly smaller areas ( lining them all up in a choke point, covering 2 or 3 enterences etc ). And not having to reposition the existing shade since you aren’t limited to 1.
Yay for meaningful tradeoffs and choices
Something to keep in mind, Sand Savant’s tooltip says “A greater shade counts as three shades for related traits.” Which means it might only affect Sand Soul and Blood as Sand, and not count as three shades for the damage and torment procs.
This is something else we need to test.