Guild Wars 2

So a handful of pvp devs were in BG hotm last week and they were as you’d expect, bombarded with threats or kitten -kissing comments.

Then I suggested that they please consider adjusting the flaws of necromancers and IMMEDIATELY a champion titled engie and guardian said necros are already OP and doesn’t need buffs. More than anything, they said it needed a nerf. What made me ALT F4 is when a warrior, out of all classes, agreed with the other two.

Its fairly standard practice to say that your class is broken and everyone else’s is OP.

I find, as a player, its best just to do what you can and adjust your playstyle instead of arguing class balance opinions. Really have to rely on stats and not opinion for balance.

Every class deals with this. I find low-level players speaking about balance even more annoying. “Conditions are OP” – Blanket statements like these run rampant

Instead of ALT-F4ing, you need to step up as a representative of the Necro class and argue your case reasonably with logical, objective discourse. At the very least, simply share your concerns based on your experience without any finger-pointing or claiming OTHER classes are OP.

A simple claim of “OP” from a few random members of a large-group forum are to be expected for literally every class in the game. The devs are going to see right through it. They want real information, real experience, real perspective. If I were to gather feedback from a crowd like that, the first people I’d ignore are the ones who throw the acronym “OP” around without any other input.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Instead of ALT-F4ing, you need to step up as a representative of the Necro class and argue your case reasonably with logical, objective discourse. At the very least, simply share your concerns based on your experience without any finger-pointing or claiming OTHER classes are OP.

A simple claim of “OP” from a few random members of a large-group forum are to be expected for literally every class in the game. The devs are going to see right through it. They want real information, real experience, real perspective. If I were to gather feedback from a crowd like that, the first people I’d ignore are the ones who throw the acronym “OP” around without any other input.

Which is what the devs do.

Even on the forums I’m starting to write off people as bad players unwilling to get better with some of the things they say regarding my class, playstyle, etc. “conditions are OP” is fun, at high level solo queue most people seem to do fine against my conditions, even though I would love to condibomb as hard as I allegedly can. “2nd health bar” is my favorite, as they don’t see DS as anything other than HP, rather than an opportunity to use CC or apply conditions.

Agreed. It’s my belief that there are no really any broken or OP classes, only bad players. It’s difficult to stomach at times (having recently gone on a tirade about stealth and theives) and it often takes playing as the other class to understand the full story.

Personally, it seems to be a flaw of mine to ‘always’ pick the most “hated” class.. it was the same in WoW that other MMO (solely ran retribution from 2.4—5.0, living through ridicule in that and learning to adapt) as it is here, and with GW1 before that.

What hallmarks a good player isn’t the class he or she plays, but rather that individual’s ability to adapt to situations and changes as they are introduced.

That being said, a majority of the gaming populous doesn’t believe this and many have preconceived notions of which class should be able to beat which. When that gets turned on its ear, pride overtakes common sense and cries of “broken” or “OP” get tossed around with no regard to their meaning.

Bottom line: any class can beat any other class. There are no “impossibilities” between classes. Play styles, however, are a different story.

Roe.3679:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Instead of ALT-F4ing, you need to step up as a representative of the Necro class and argue your case reasonably with logical, objective discourse. At the very least, simply share your concerns based on your experience without any finger-pointing or claiming OTHER classes are OP.

A simple claim of “OP” from a few random members of a large-group forum are to be expected for literally every class in the game. The devs are going to see right through it. They want real information, real experience, real perspective. If I were to gather feedback from a crowd like that, the first people I’d ignore are the ones who throw the acronym “OP” around without any other input.

Which is what the devs do.

Even on the forums I’m starting to write off people as bad players unwilling to get better with some of the things they say regarding my class, playstyle, etc. “conditions are OP” is fun, at high level solo queue most people seem to do fine against my conditions, even though I would love to condibomb as hard as I allegedly can. “2nd health bar” is my favorite, as they don’t see DS as anything other than HP, rather than an opportunity to use CC or apply conditions.

A few quotes about it:

“Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change.” (in context tho, a person so wise that he cannot exist)

“The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.”

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and the thing about the universe aint even sure.”

“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.”

“A stupid man’s report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.”

“Evil isn’t the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as Evil, maybe more so, and it’s a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against Stupid. That might actually make a difference.”

I don’t have a necro but why not just revert dhumfire? It shouldn’t be that OP in this power -bunker meta.

a t s e.9614:

I don’t have a necro but why not just revert dhumfire? It shouldn’t be that OP in this power -bunker meta.

The issue with Dhuumfire was that it forced Necros into it, otherwise they wouldn’t have remotely relevant damage output (due to the pretty heavy bleed nerfs we got), and it was just a random passive proc, and so there was no real play/counterplay to it.

The idea of changing Dhuumfire to a known proc was fine, the issue is that they never reverted the nerfs that went along with the old OP dhuumfire.

It’s just that in certain tpvp situations, playing a necromancer becomes a liability to the team. This concern is beyond one’s gaming style. Despite the setbacks, I really do enjoy playing it. A condi necro has nowhere near the sustainability of a condi engi, warrior, ranger…so on. Either adjust the sustainability of the class (i.e. warrior signet heal) or improve its attrition/dot. We lack real stability and an escape but I’m fine with that because I gave up believing they will ever be added.

90% of players are just selfish, they dont care about the game they just care about themselves.
Engi can rek most of classes but gets destroyed by necro, you think they want to be more balanced against most classes and have better chances against necro? No they just want necro to be nerfed.
Theres perfect example of this atm in spvp section where someone pointed out the obvious thing that strength runes are OP, warrs just excuse that its only way how to deal with bunkers/condi classes, they dont care about all those people who play zerker builds and get bursted down by classes who play borderline bunkers like soldier warr or celestial ele.

OMG Leeto commented on my thread!

What you explained is very similar to what I experienced plus a group of anet devs were present.

I love your videos, especially the current state of PVP, lol. Happy to see that you have Close to Death traited.

Leeto.1570:

90% of players are just selfish, they dont care about the game they just care about themselves.
Engi can rek most of classes but gets destroyed by necro, you think they want to be more balanced against most classes and have better chances against necro? No they just want necro to be nerfed.
Theres perfect example of this atm in spvp section where someone pointed out the obvious thing that strength runes are OP, warrs just excuse that its only way how to deal with bunkers/condi classes, they dont care about all those people who play zerker builds and get bursted down by classes who play borderline bunkers like soldier warr or celestial ele.

Well soft counters are actually supposed to be a thing in game, tho the question here is which one should and shouldnt actually counter.

IMO the typical: DPS>Tank>Burst>DPS triange (in concept, ofc its actually something like http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/6489/00025599.jpg) should apply since it has been mathematically been proven to be the best (for D&D at least)

In terms of League characters (can do dota comparison too, but im both too lazy to look up the changed names for dotz 2 and league is the more popular game) id put the professions based on the original/post descriptions (aka not how they actually function in game sadly):
Necro – Cho gath/Thresh (additional tie ins with Rene and Heca)
Warrior – Udyr/Olaf (tie ins with Trynda and Yi)
Mesmer – Shaco/Leblanc (tie ins with Kass and Lulu)
Engie – Kayle/Elise (tie ins with Heimer and Ori)
Ranger – Yorick/Quinn (tie ins with Nidalee and Vayne)
Thief – Zed/Twitch (tie ins with Teemo and Fiora)
Guardian – Their Broham/Maokai (tie ins with Malphite and Pantheon)
Ele – Zyra/Ahri (tie ins with Soraka and Kennen)

i find most of the complaints about necromancers come from players who don’t use condi cleanses, or have enough toughness to take a single dagger chain.
however, i will not say there are no broken or OP classes. some classes have way too much access to mobility, while others have tons of mobility and as well as huge amounts of soft escapes(leaps etc) and it’s hard maining a class that has none of any of the above listed to not be outplayed by some of these classes sometimes, whether they’re better than me or not.

Lightsbane.9012:

i find most of the complaints about necromancers come from players who don’t use condi cleanses, or have enough toughness to take a single dagger chain.
however, i will not say there are no broken or OP classes. some classes have way too much access to mobility, while others have tons of mobility and as well as huge amounts of soft escapes(leaps etc) and it’s hard maining a class that has none of any of the above listed to not be outplayed by some of these classes sometimes, whether they’re better than me or not.

That main issue with any class is ignorance, people want to play and win. (And I’m.guilty at this to) when they encounter a class that demolishes them. You instantly think op!! But in most cases it’s not.
The one thing that I do, and every one else should do, is play what killed you. I use to hate thiefs and die all time to them. So.I made one.spent hours playing one getting good at it so.I can.figure out how to fight one. I asked a lot of questions and asked stratagies, I got.good and now I can fight them.
Now every one says how op necro and warrior are. I main both and now exactly how to counter. I know there weaknesses there strengths

If you can’t fight something ask, practice, learn how they play. Warriors are so easily counter if you know what to do. So are most classes.

Ignorance will be the death of get. Give it time you will see

I sincerely believe necro is currently in a good place. Not a great place, but a good place. A number of skills should be partially reverted now that dhuumfire is a death shroud focused skill, but the biggest issue is ‘Immune-immune-immune.’ As someone who plays multiple alts I have a fair idea of what to expect from professions and what to expected from a number of en vogue builds. It is always disappointing when you see a warrior being played very badly still get the upper hand on you because -immune-immune-immune-bad play-bad play- huge crit hit and all their conditions gone at the same time. In my last match there w as pistol whip thief sporting the title of reaper. I found them easier to deal with than the lvl 8 rabbit ranked warrior using a standard meta power build with shield/axe-longbow. It was just how forgiving their build was in moments of where they had nothing particularly special going for them, yet that out did purposeful condition stacking and control. I am not trying to point out warrior specifically, just the ever increasing amount of stealth and immunity.

I’d still like to know why warrior has exponentially better survivability than necro, the majority of it being passive so they don’t even have to think about it, and are allowed to have roadrunner-ish speed to go along with it. The excuse for necro not having any dashes/teleports/etc is the survivability. So what’s up with that? 1 utility skill that does a dash or teleport and i’d be happy even if it had a ridiculous cooldown. And no, the wurm thing doesn’t count.

Nikkinella.8254:

I’d still like to know why warrior has exponentially better survivability than necro, the majority of it being passive so they don’t even have to think about it, and are allowed to have roadrunner-ish speed to go along with it. The excuse for necro not having any dashes/teleports/etc is the survivability. So what’s up with that? 1 utility skill that does a dash or teleport and i’d be happy even if it had a ridiculous cooldown. And no, the wurm thing doesn’t count.

I have always felt like Wurm should be a teleport from the first cast. And then while it is still alive to teleport again.

Many of the complaints about mobility would be addressed if they simply gave us a single good means of escape.

A nice improvement to the worm would be being able to cast it 1200 away and instantly exchanging places with it. the worm explodes in a gas cloud poisoning and crippling whatever walks through it. that way maybe, you’d have a chance of escaping a zerg for once.

Nikkinella.8254:

A nice improvement to the worm would be being able to cast it 1200 away and instantly exchanging places with it. the worm explodes in a gas cloud poisoning and crippling whatever walks through it. that way maybe, you’d have a chance of escaping a zerg for once.

We’re specifically not supposed to have escapes, I’m not sure why people hear this and say “ya… but what if we just had a really quick movement ability that we could use to get away from a fight”. Flesh Wurm is only allowed to be as strong as it is now because it is weak without being pre-set.

Nikkinella.8254:

A nice improvement to the worm would be being able to cast it 1200 away and instantly exchanging places with it. the worm explodes in a gas cloud poisoning and crippling whatever walks through it. that way maybe, you’d have a chance of escaping a zerg for once.

Just being able to teleport to its exact location would be enough for me ^^.
the RNG see where you end up TP really isn’t cutting it.

Bhawb.7408:

Nikkinella.8254:

A nice improvement to the worm would be being able to cast it 1200 away and instantly exchanging places with it. the worm explodes in a gas cloud poisoning and crippling whatever walks through it. that way maybe, you’d have a chance of escaping a zerg for once.

We’re specifically not supposed to have escapes, I’m not sure why people hear this and say “ya… but what if we just had a really quick movement ability that we could use to get away from a fight”. Flesh Wurm is only allowed to be as strong as it is now because it is weak without being pre-set.

See, this is what i never got. WHY is necro not allowed any escapes? considering how much the game has changed since the beginning for all classes, i think its about time necro got 1. I’m not asking for stupidly broken, run across the map in 5 seconds, warrior type speed. Just 1 escape for those “oh crap” moments when you see a large group of people running towards you, just to give you somewhat of a chance of surviving. And you can’t argue that necros survival is the reason it doesn’t have escapes, because once again….warrior. Warrior outsurvives necro by a longshot. Its not even close comparing the 2 in terms of survival. Even if it was at the cost of some kill power, i’d like 1 decent escape method.

Nikkinella.8254:

Bhawb.7408:

Nikkinella.8254:

A nice improvement to the worm would be being able to cast it 1200 away and instantly exchanging places with it. the worm explodes in a gas cloud poisoning and crippling whatever walks through it. that way maybe, you’d have a chance of escaping a zerg for once.

We’re specifically not supposed to have escapes, I’m not sure why people hear this and say “ya… but what if we just had a really quick movement ability that we could use to get away from a fight”. Flesh Wurm is only allowed to be as strong as it is now because it is weak without being pre-set.

See, this is what i never got. WHY is necro not allowed any escapes? considering how much the game has changed since the beginning for all classes, i think its about time necro got 1. I’m not asking for stupidly broken, run across the map in 5 seconds, warrior type speed. Just 1 escape for those “oh crap” moments when you see a large group of people running towards you, just to give you somewhat of a chance of surviving. And you can’t argue that necros survival is the reason it doesn’t have escapes, because once again….warrior. Warrior outsurvives necro by a longshot. Its not even close comparing the 2 in terms of survival. Even if it was at the cost of some kill power, i’d like 1 decent escape method.

Wurm is a viable escape if you preset it. Especially in WvW where I assume this is about because most warrs aren’t running GS in pvp.

And they’ve been very clear that they won’t give necro escapes – or more escapes I should say – along with active defense. What you need to ask for is heals in DS and/or improved life force generation so you can stay in a fight like you should be able to.

We don’t get free escapes because Necromancer is supposed to be one of the strongest in-fight professions. Meaning we get into the thickest part of the fight and thrive more than anyone else because we scale best in that situation through life stealing, conditions, LF regen, etc. You can see this in WvW where we are at our strongest and deal pretty high damage while retaining near bunker-levels of tankiness.

Unfortunately things don’t translate so well out of that in many builds. However assuming they balance those issues, you can’t have a profession be amazing in the thick of fights that is then also able to escape the second things get bad. That is why Thieves have such amazing mobility, it makes up for the fact that they are actually quite bad at fighting for extended periods of time. They get in, deal their damage, get out and wait for another opportunity. In this case they should be polar opposite to us.

The reason things like SWalk and Flesh Wurm are okay is because they are extremely limited in allowing you to only return somewhere you were already, with other limitations like the window of time you have and how far they take you. Both of them also uniquely allow you to go even more ham than you could without them (SWalk can let a glass build jump into a fight, blow their load all over their enemies, then warp out until they can get their stuff up again).

Bhawb.7408:

We don’t get free escapes because Necromancer is supposed to be one of the strongest in-fight professions. Meaning we get into the thickest part of the fight and thrive more than anyone else because we scale best in that situation through life stealing, conditions, LF regen, etc. You can see this in WvW where we are at our strongest and deal pretty high damage while retaining near bunker-levels of tankiness.

Unfortunately things don’t translate so well out of that in many builds. However assuming they balance those issues, you can’t have a profession be amazing in the thick of fights that is then also able to escape the second things get bad. That is why Thieves have such amazing mobility, it makes up for the fact that they are actually quite bad at fighting for extended periods of time. They get in, deal their damage, get out and wait for another opportunity. In this case they should be polar opposite to us.

The reason things like SWalk and Flesh Wurm are okay is because they are extremely limited in allowing you to only return somewhere you were already, with other limitations like the window of time you have and how far they take you. Both of them also uniquely allow you to go even more ham than you could without them (SWalk can let a glass build jump into a fight, blow their load all over their enemies, then warp out until they can get their stuff up again).

Actually… the bad point about thieves aint their dps (having second/tied highest dps in pve in game and the highest evade frame uptime in game) or survivability, its that you need to perfectly combo and twitch react for maximum efficiency… its kinda how the original starcraft zerg worked, that is till Koreans got their hands on the zerg and they got stomped into the dirt.
Also their max dps options and their efficient survival options dont mix nearly as well as one would think.

I didn’t say their DPS was bad, I said they can’t stay in prolonged fights. S/D thief is the only one that can actually stay around in the middle of a fight and not be the first one dead every single time, and even then they can only do that because of constant evading, dodging, and teleporting.

Bhawb.7408:

We don’t get free escapes because Necromancer is supposed to be one of the strongest in-fight professions. Meaning we get into the thickest part of the fight and thrive more than anyone else because we scale best in that situation through life stealing, conditions, LF regen, etc. You can see this in WvW where we are at our strongest and deal pretty high damage while retaining near bunker-levels of tankiness.

Unfortunately things don’t translate so well out of that in many builds. However assuming they balance those issues, you can’t have a profession be amazing in the thick of fights that is then also able to escape the second things get bad. That is why Thieves have such amazing mobility, it makes up for the fact that they are actually quite bad at fighting for extended periods of time. They get in, deal their damage, get out and wait for another opportunity. In this case they should be polar opposite to us.

The reason things like SWalk and Flesh Wurm are okay is because they are extremely limited in allowing you to only return somewhere you were already, with other limitations like the window of time you have and how far they take you. Both of them also uniquely allow you to go even more ham than you could without them (SWalk can let a glass build jump into a fight, blow their load all over their enemies, then warp out until they can get their stuff up again).

I believe that all classes should either have a disengage or access to stability to perform whatever role the class is assigned. As a necro, if we are not allowed escapes then we should be given greater access to stability. As of now being kicked, punted, and interrupted til dead is the norm rather than the exception. I personally believe that foot in the grave should be moved to adept and tested. If cooldowns or whatever needs to be adjusted do so. If this is unacceptable then give us an escape.

Adept level stability. Suuuuuurrrrrrreeeee thing bro

On a separate note stability doesn’t fit thematically with necro IMO. I would like to see distortion take its place kind of feels spectral-ish. As in we aren’t really tied to this world as tightly so we can just float between dimensions. That would be legit and would allow us some much needed survivability and the ability to “escape” as literally nothing could touch us for a precious few seconds.

FitG as an adept is insanely unbalanced. Just give us utility based stability, forcing it on traits really limits things still.

Bhawb.7408:

FitG as an adept is insanely unbalanced. Just give us utility based stability, forcing it on traits really limits things still.

Adept FitG would actually fit the power level of adept traits especially since almost every other stability trait is major with a 6+ total duration time, tho it would get a 30s~ cooldown (aka every second DS entry on a condi build).

With an ICD sure, but as it is now no.

I’d much rather they give us an adept that drops a blind on entry though with an ICD and bring back some version of Shade instead.

#BringBackShade

Bhawb.7408:

With an ICD sure, but as it is now no.

I’d much rather they give us an adept that drops a blind on entry though with an ICD and bring back some version of Shade instead.

#BringBackShade

I’d roll a bunker Necro in an instant if Shade came back. I never experienced it myself, but the possibilities are delightful.

Cogbyrn.7283:

…claiming OTHER classes are OP.

Dev’s are OP. Nerf!

Oh, noez, conditions are OP ’cause we gave them to everyone and they stack too easily!

Bhawb.7408:

FitG as an adept is insanely unbalanced. Just give us utility based stability, forcing it on traits really limits things still.

That is why when I suggested FiTG at adept level, I qualified that suggestion with: " If cooldowns or whatever needs to be adjusted do so."

Rhizo.5089:

=
That is why when I suggested FiTG at adept level, I qualified that suggestion with: " If cooldowns or whatever needs to be adjusted do so."

Are you kidding me ? ICD on FiTG ?

pierwola.9602:

Rhizo.5089:

=
That is why when I suggested FiTG at adept level, I qualified that suggestion with: " If cooldowns or whatever needs to be adjusted do so."

Are you kidding me ? ICD on FiTG ?

Yes, if you are going to move FiTG to the adept level then something will have to give to provide balance. Making a class OP’d is bad for the game. You do want the game to succeed in keeping n active population no?

Rhizo.5089:

Yes, if you are going to move FiTG to the adept level then something will have to give to provide balance. Making a class OP’d is bad for the game. You do want the game to succeed in keeping n active population no?

I dont like the whole idea not only the ICD part.

Play Necro however you want. If someone cry at you because you play a cheese build, tell ’em to play cheese build of his class too. If not, then laugh and rofl kill him again and again.

Don’t forget to put a smiley each time you kill them.
It’s +300 to rage.