Guild Wars 2

Anyone else irked by the fact that EVERYONE now has access to “Antitoxin Spray” which is tantamount to the Necro’s “Consume Conditions” (though Antitoxin Spray is an AoE & a FULL 1/4 of a Second FASTER!!!)? [I mean BONUS Healing for Each conditions removed??!! Really?!?!?]) Consume Conditions was our special heal – now its not special … and it has a Slower activation time. -_-

EVERYONE now gets a heal that reduces the effectiveness of Necro weapons, while Necros cannot even get DECENT STABILITY?? EVERY OTHER Job gets access to several seconds of stability, AND access to heal while stable. Necros don’t.

Just wondering if else thinks this is completely unfair?

Spray heals for less, has a longer cooldown, and doesn’t remove bleeds.

Nope.. while it’s like CC.. it’s a poor comparison to it.
AS heals for a base heal (for example – 3.972 for me) then 498 for each condition on you. HOWEVER.. the only conditions it will give you the extra heal from is Toxic pollen, poison, torment and confusion.
So it wont heal from things like bleeds, cripples, blinds etc.
To be even good the user would have to have poison, torment and confusion on them, otherwise its a weak heal.
CC is still superior in all ways over AS.

Every new condition cleanse option is a nerf for wvw necros, we have to learn to live with that.
Conditions can’t stay longer than 1-3s on enemy in wvw due to massive area cleanses. And we have to play as condition necro because it’s the only viable and ranged build for necros. But it’s constantly losing efficiency due to more cleanse options with every patch.(plus buffs to cleanses of other classes)
We have to stay ranged because of the lack of stability. We have only melee power weapons yet we don’t have the stability to get in melee range in wvw. We are golf balls to be played with hammers in zergs. These contradictions are just ridiculous. Necro needs power based ranged+aoe weapons and more stability asap to get rid of inefficient condition builds. They are only thinking about pve and spvp, yet there’s no class efficiency balance in wvw.

Anti Toxin spray is terrible. I saw a mesmer use it the first day it came and out and I lol’d. Just do the math on it and compare it is literally a terrible heal compared to every other option every class has nobody would take that heal over their other options. Even mesmers who usually have bad condition removal. Why do people get so up in arms over stuff like this? Nobody is running this heal.

Hey now, I ran this heal! Only to get the daily achievement that was tied to it (after which I promptly swapped back to CC), but I still ran it.

Noble.3647:

…while Necros cannot even get DECENT STABILITY?? EVERY OTHER Job gets access to several seconds of stability, AND access to heal while stable. Necros don’t.

Just wondering if else thinks this is completely unfair?

Yeah, no. Thats just a lie.
Necro’s have more stability than thieves. Not by much, but they do :P

Don’t forget, Antitoxin spray is an AoE heal, whereas Consume Conditions only helps you.

Umut.5471:

Every new condition cleanse option is a nerf for wvw necros, we have to learn to live with that.
Conditions can’t stay longer than 1-3s on enemy in wvw due to massive area cleanses. And we have to play as condition necro because it’s the only viable and ranged build for necros. But it’s constantly losing efficiency due to more cleanse options with every patch.(plus buffs to cleanses of other classes)

You have to be kiddin. In small to mid scale (1 – 10 per side) conditions are a huge deal if you don’t bring some warhorn-traited warriors with you. They are borderline op right now due to the spammability and unavoidable auto-procs which most of the condition builds trait for (especially in 1vs1 up to 5vs5 with epidemic). When roaming almost any enemy runs some condition or condition-CC-hybrid build because they are so effective while being low risk (being ranged while dealing equal HPpS damage to most offensive direct damage melee builds and add to even more damage over time).

Bigger guild groups usually pack so much condition remove because the CC conditions are almost instant death if you don’t remove e.g. immobilize, fear and chill as soon as it hits your team.

Umut.5471:

We have to stay ranged because of the lack of stability.

So does every other class than warrior atm. At least you can trait for stability whenever you enter Death Shroud, theoretically resulting in stability-uptime of 30% and more… But oh well, it is hidden inside the last tree, which favors power builds. So either go hybrid, power or abandon some of your condition burst potential, maybe?

Umut.5471:

We have only melee power weapons yet we don’t have the stability to get in melee range in wvw.

Axe skills work at medium range (600 units), focus works at 900 units, warhorn offers PBAoE cripple and an AoE interrupt at 600 units. Dagger #2 and #3 also work at medium range, making its auto attack the only real melee skill for power necros. You can also use death shroud and lich form for ridiculous damage at up to 1200 units range, as well as staff for hybrid builds.
Most other classes also don’t have great access to stability and stun breaks, but they work around that by kiting and outplaying their enemies in other ways (movement, positioning, blind, chill, cripple, immobilize, condition transfer, boon ripping, etc).

Umut.5471:

We are golf balls to be played with hammers in zergs.

You have several options as a necro in ZvZ or GvG, like movement and situational awareness, or stability provided by your allies…

As for the new healing spell: It is extremely bad on any class. The CD is high, its effect very low compared to almost any other healing skill in the game.

Unpredictability.4086:

Don’t forget, Antitoxin spray is an AoE heal, whereas Consume Conditions only helps you.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Antitoxin_Spray

The primary heal is only applied to your character; nearby allies are only given the secondary heal for each condition removed.

If more than one person runs it, it is even less valuable because it greatly reduces the healing potential for the second player.

AC is crap! I could see running it on a guardian or elementalist just for AoE poison removal in pvp but it’s inferior even in that respect. CC is still one of the best heals in the game and will prolly remain so for a long time.

As for the added condition removal in wvw, keep in mind that this is a bit to all condition builds. Necros still reign subprime in the condi battle (as we should) but overall in big fights it’s the melee pain train meta. 1vX does not feel very different for me just zergs. Tbh who cares about zero fights just mark to tag and cleft bags… Boring

@maeggle currently most of players use -condition duration runes/foods plus they have aoe cleanse options it’s so rare to find a group that can’t cleanse your conditions.
wvw isn’t like spvp in which conditions are powerful. It’s only good if they don’t cleanse your conditions(with newbie builds) else it’s far from good. I’ll roll a celestial build for hybrid damage it’s the most logical one for now. If they add real ranged aoe weapons with direct damage in the future, I may convert it to full power.

New skill is terrible. Only situation in which it would actually be useful is to remove toxin, and it’s not even good there since places that apply toxin immediately reapply after removal. I tried using on the Tower of Nightmares 3rd floor and basically got myself killed… so useful to remove toxin and have it come back .000001 seconds later.

Umut.5471:

@maeggle currently most of players use -condition duration runes/foods plus they have aoe cleanse options it’s so rare to find a group that can’t cleanse your conditions.

The usage of -condition duration food is a direct consequence of some conditions beeing far too powerful (especially in solo- and small-scale-roaming – e.g. 3+ seconds is certain death to any spec who can put out 3k+ HPpS damage) as well as every other condition player using veggie pizza or koi cake.

Umut.5471:

wvw isn’t like spvp in which conditions are powerful.

You can achieve far more attribute points in WvW than in PvP for condition damage while having even more +condition duration. Where is this less powerful than in PvP?

Umut.5471:

It’s only good if they don’t cleanse your conditions(with newbie builds) else it’s far from good.

Cleanses are on high cooldown, so are condition removal spells which remove one or two conditions per activation. Most builds also cannot use light fields plus whirl finishers (projectile finishers in light fields still don’t work reliably), nor have they reliable ways to transfer conditions to inattentive condition spammers. On top, condition damage has no real passive counter-play like “weakness”, which greatly reduces direct damage. Also I can dodge / block / blind an earthshaker, backstab, burning speed / firegrab, mindwreck, etc if I pay attention to what my opponent does. What I cannot do, is dodging that 4+ seconds of burning every 10 seconds or the bleed-stacking on crit of such skillful play as pressing #1 repeatedly from 900+ range.

If you run with unbalanced groups sometimes like I do (e.g. ele, thief, necro) most of the time, it doesn’t matter how good you may be and how many condition removals you have slotted – at the end of the day the group of condition bunkers will most certainly “win” if they dodge every once in a while. Auto procs via traits make it way too easy to apply heavy condition pressure without punishing bad or inattentive gameplay.

I know there are some professions and mechanisms which make dealing with conditions very easy, but please also keep in mind that gameplay in WvW is not like tPvP where you’re always running with a fixed group composition to directly counter the meta. There is not always a guardian with SY and CoP, a staff ele, a mesmer with shattered conditions, or a warhorn-traited warrior around, in which case condition burst become super nasty on most classes (especially the ones with low base HP). I’d like there to be less hard counters (like condition spam is currently to most eles, guardians and thiefs) and more attentive gameplay required for condition builds.

Antitoxin Spray is crap and not worth complaining about; except when people insist on using it in WvW and set themselves up to be a rally bot for the enemy.

@maeggle you can be right in some points but cc system is in the same situation. ccs are spammable but stability has short duration and long cooldowns. it’s the same story, if you have a guardian in your party you have stability, if not, bye bye. it’s a paper rock scissors thing. some classes can’t remove necro conditions, but necro can’t get stability against their spammed ccs. they are saying us to make special builds to counter ccs and spend precious traits for stability, then these classes need to make special builds to counter conditions. If you are a scissor and want to beat rock, you have to give up many useful things. this is logic of the game.

also don’t think condition ticks as seperate strikes, a thief can hit 10k damage in single strike, and can spam #2 to continuously hit instant 4-5k but condition skills hit about 3k in 5secs(burning ex.). So whole 5x burning ticks belong to just a single strike compared to direct damage. 5x burning ticks=damage of 1 skill over time. You can’t say condition skills are spammable, because instant, direct damage is spammable too. They have same cooldowns as direct damage based skills. And yes you can dodge condition skills too, if you dodge the skill you won’t get any burning. ofc you won’t be able to dodge already dealed damage, it’s like trying to dodge backstab damage after getting inflicted with it. It’s the same thing, but it deals its damage over time slowly. Plus its removable, if you remove a 12s bleeding at 3s you basically get only 25% of the damage. Plus you have permanent options to reduce condition durations to -65% which means -65% less ticks=65% less damage + less passive conditions/ccs. But I don’t see an option to permanently reduce direct damages to -65%.
I’m currently playing as condition build but I would definitely prefer power based build in wvw if necro had new weapon types. Damage over time isn’t even preferable to instant, high damage in wvw. You have to try condition necro for a while in wvw zerg fights just to see how underpowered it is. Use a mark in enemy zerg and watch condition ticks, it stays for 3s max.
Our role is staying ranged due to the lack of stability, 600 range you mean for axe means getting so close to enemy hammer trains, plus its attacks aren’t aoe.(except #3, but it’s pbaoe which makes you get in enemy zerg) Mh dagger is already a joke for wvw. Many necros hate condition builds too but they are forced to use this build or damage hybrids because there aren’t 100% power based wvw-viable weapons to go for 100% power build, and utilities/traits depend so much on conditions. Currently I would prefer playing warrior(I already have with full items) instead of a 100% power necro with a melee range. At least it has long stability, more armor, more damage, more mobility, more invulnerability plus cc spam ability. I just play necro because I find warrior gameplay boring. For everything else warrior is the best choice.

I am going to say yes it does kitten me off, on the off chance that Anet decides to give a slightly less powerful version of the warriors healing signet to everyone.

I’m not bothered, it doesn’t remove a lot of conditions (including Bleeds/Burns), heals for considerably less and has a longer cooldown.

The irony is boons are far more stronger then conditions because its easier to deal with conditions then it is with boons. You can remove conditions, you can eat food/gear etc to reduce the length of time. Only thing peeps can do to boons is to dispel them and while necros do have a lot of dispels other people do not. But it seems everyone can deal with conditions just about. I think Mesmers have issues with them though iirc.

Umut.5471:

ccs are spammable but stability has short duration and long cooldowns.

You have a point here, which is why many of us ask for diminishing returns on CC-spam. The thing is, that most of the really nasty CC skills (earthshaker or skull crack on full adrenaline, guardian wards and static fields) require melee range (well, earthshaker is pretty off here, but anyways) (less than 600 units) or require the player to run into a wall.

Umut.5471:

also don’t think condition ticks as seperate strikes, a thief can hit 10k damage in single strike, and can spam #2 to continuously hit instant 4-5k but condition skills hit about 3k in 5secs(burning ex.). So whole 5x burning ticks belong to just a single strike compared to direct damage. 5x burning ticks=damage of 1 skill over time. You can’t say condition skills are spammable, because instant, direct damage is spammable too.

I can avoid most direct damage spikes via evades, blocks and blinds. What I cannot avoid, is getting critically hit every once in a while, though. DF and IP both trigger on crit (even from fast auto attacks), and only then they are put on a short ICD (10 seconds). Most of thieves’ direct damage output can be drastically reduced by turning around, applying weakness, applying the protection boon or frost aura if one cannot dodge / block / outrun them.
Ofcourse I can dodge signet of spite, tainted shackles, corrupt boons, grenades and the like, but in the end I will get stacked with a broad variety of control and damage conditions from attacks, which also can crit (and deal direct damage as well), which will put extra condition pressure on me. I always slot some good amount of condition removal / reduction when solo-roaming, and I sure know most skill animations so I can try to dodge them, and I try to be clever when and how to remove conditions (e.g. blind cover condition can be removed by attacking, don’t use pulsing condition removal in pulsing condition sources, etc), but in the end it is just too much tankiness and random-procs in WvW to put down most condition specs with my semi-balanced burst specs. My understanding was, that condition builds should win fights of attrition, but right now I can get condition-bursted from 16k to 0 in 4 to 5 seconds. Most direct damage specs cannot do this even when they land their burst (except D/D thieves, shatter mesmers, GS/Axe+x warriors, or guardians and engineers on full glass)… I also tried to slot more vitality, but even 18k HP won’t cut it for me.

Umut.5471:

Plus you have permanent options to reduce condition durations to -65% which means -65% less ticks=65% less damage + less passive conditions/ccs. But I don’t see an option to permanently reduce direct damages to -65%.

Most condition specs have at least +50% condition duration via traits, runes and food. Those buffs are soft countered by runes of Melandru (or sth like that), -duration food, and sometimes via traits (only affects CC conditions). Soft counter means, that they add and substract to and from the relative condition duration: If you have a total of 170% condition duration, and your opponent has 65% condition duration reduction, then you still have 105% worth of condition duration. If you spec into additional condition duration, it is highly unlikely that your conditions -- if not removed — won’t tick for at least the base duration.

Umut.5471:

I’m currently playing as condition build but I would definitely prefer power based build in wvw if necro had new weapon types. Damage over time isn’t even preferable to instant, high damage in wvw. You have to try condition necro for a while in wvw zerg fights just to see how underpowered it is. Use a mark in enemy zerg and watch condition ticks, it stays for 3s max.

I always try to keep in touch of what and how other players play the game, so I know that too many condition specced players are suffering in ZvZ performance. But I also know that condition hybrid necromancers (with an emphasis on conditions) are the most rewarding and easiest build style for them in small scale fights and duels, which is why you find so many necro roamers with condition burst + control specs.

(continuation)

Umut.5471:

Currently I would prefer playing warrior

There are some warrior specs which are total cheese (means overpowered and easy to play to be very effective), and something has to be done about it. I wouldn’t consider warriors as the anchor point for balancing decisions, though.

Again, I don’t want to reduce the effectiveness of condition builds, but I want there to be less reliance on auto-procs and more emphasis on clever skill use. In the end this would also mean a reduction of effectiveness of some condition removal tools to compensate for that. I want to be rewarded for timing condition removal as well as I want to be rewarded for clever snares and CC to set up a direct damage spike / evasion of such. Right now I don’t feel rewarded for sitting out bleed, poison and burning stacks while waiting for signet of spite / corrupt boons, or the other way around, but it is just a continous stream of conditions and cover conditions, which makes me more and more reliant on support of a friendly RNG god than my personal skill and experience.

Antitoxin Spray is a mediocre heal at best. It’s not comparable to Consume Conditions (one of the best heals in the game), not in the slightest.
I don’t think I’d see many people running around in WvW with Antitoxin Spray.

consume conditions eats every condition in the game on you (except maybe the toxin one) and heals for more per. It’s a lot better.

The spray is only better when surrounded by allies who need the cleanse.

Maesk.8753:

Noble.3647:

…while Necros cannot even get DECENT STABILITY?? EVERY OTHER Job gets access to several seconds of stability, AND access to heal while stable. Necros don’t.

Just wondering if else thinks this is completely unfair?

Yeah, no. Thats just a lie.
Necro’s have more stability than thieves. Not by much, but they do :P

Uh, no. Wrong. Necros are THE ONLY PROFESSION that CANNOT HEAL & CANNOT Access Utility Skills when using those elites that grant us a little stability. I am not counting the 1s of “stability” from Well of Power – because that is just ridiculous. Not even enough time to use the CC Heal.

maeggle.6021:

At least you can trait for stability

We still cannot cleanse conditions or Heal while using Foot in the Grave, but, ok – if EVERY profession had to TRAIT to use stability. Fine. That’s acceptable. Make EVERY Profession have to trait for stability – and make it a Grandmaster Trait … but we still need to be able to Heal & possibly get rid of conditions.

Noble.3647:

maeggle.6021:

At least you can trait for stability

We still cannot cleanse conditions or Heal while using Foot in the Grave, but, ok – if EVERY profession had to TRAIT to use stability. Fine. That’s acceptable. Make EVERY Profession have to trait for stability – and make it a Grandmaster Trait … but we still need to be able to Heal & possibly get rid of conditions.

Actually, you can. If you need to cleanse, just pop in and out of DS. You’ll still have stability in normal mode. If you want to make things a bit easier, hit DS 3 before exiting as fear will buy you time to cast heal without getting interrupted.

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Noble.3647:

maeggle.6021:

At least you can trait for stability

We still cannot cleanse conditions or Heal while using Foot in the Grave, but, ok – if EVERY profession had to TRAIT to use stability. Fine. That’s acceptable. Make EVERY Profession have to trait for stability – and make it a Grandmaster Trait … but we still need to be able to Heal & possibly get rid of conditions.

Actually, you can. If you need to cleanse, just pop in and out of DS. You’ll still have stability in normal mode. If you want to make things a bit easier, hit DS 3 before exiting as fear will buy you time to cast heal without getting interrupted.

Ok, so it’s settled then – Every Professions SHOULD be able to ONLY get Stability as a Grandmaster Trait, if they want to have stability while accessing Heal & other skills. The problem is Necros are THE ONLY Profession that has to do that. And, even then, as you say you have to pop in & out of DS, which seems pretty wasteful.

Noble.3647:

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Noble.3647:

maeggle.6021:

At least you can trait for stability

We still cannot cleanse conditions or Heal while using Foot in the Grave, but, ok – if EVERY profession had to TRAIT to use stability. Fine. That’s acceptable. Make EVERY Profession have to trait for stability – and make it a Grandmaster Trait … but we still need to be able to Heal & possibly get rid of conditions.

Actually, you can. If you need to cleanse, just pop in and out of DS. You’ll still have stability in normal mode. If you want to make things a bit easier, hit DS 3 before exiting as fear will buy you time to cast heal without getting interrupted.

Ok, so it’s settled then – Every Professions SHOULD be able to ONLY get Stability as a Grandmaster Trait, if they want to have stability while accessing Heal & other skills. The problem is Necros are THE ONLY Profession that has to do that. And, even then, as you say you have to pop in & out of DS, which seems pretty wasteful.

Why should other professions only have stability as a GM trait? Necros don’t have this limitation. They have Well of Power, remember? And, yes, it is a good skill.

Secondly, I said that you CAN POP IN AND OUT, not that you have to. There’s a difference, you know. That’s what makes FitG a good trait: flexibility. It can proc both offensive and defensive abilities and thus should be deployed according to the situation. What’s really wasteful is going into DS and spamming auto attack until you burn through all your accumulated LF. Carefully managing DS is most of what playing the class is about.

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Why should other professions only have stability as a GM trait? Necros don’t have this limitation.

O_o
It was your mention of the GM Trait Foot in the Grave “trait for stability” :

Actually, you can. If you need to cleanse, just pop in and out of DS. You’ll still have stability in normal mode.

You said that is the ONLY way that we can gain access to Heal & Skills while having stability, did you not? That makes it a severe limitation, to have to put 30 in the SR trait line to gain practical stability. Thus, Necros are the ONLY Profession to NEED a GM Trait to gain stability long enough to use Healing & Utility Skills.

Nagato no Kami.4980:

They have Well of Power, remember? And, yes, it is a good skill.

Yeah, I mentioned WoP & negated it as a joke – the skill may be good, but NOT for the stability. Most of our skills have at least 3/4s activation time, which means you will do well to get off one skill while WoP gives you stability – and you will likely not get off 2. Minion Masters do not even have enough time to summon a single minion while stable. Also, you will NOT be able to use the Heals – Summon Blood Fiend & Consume Conditions – while maintaining stability; you barely have enough time to use Well of Blood. And I am not even going to mention WoP’s 50s cooldown.

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Secondly, I said that you CAN POP IN AND OUT, not that you have to. There’s a difference, you know. That’s what makes FitG a good trait: flexibility.

Again, FitG is a GM TRAIT. It is NOT FAIR for Necros to HAVE To use a GM Trait to get Practical Stability.

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Carefully managing DS is most of what playing the class is about.

Yeah, but it can be incredibly difficult if not impossible to get an adequate amount of LF for DS with some builds & weapons – but that’s another post.

Thieves only get stability while using a channel skill (and elite at that), so the point remains that we still have better practical access than they do.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Thieves only get stability while using a channel skill (and elite at that), so the point remains that we still have better practical access than they do.

Assuming you mean Dagger Storm? If so it is WAY more practical:

Because Thieves can activate poisons & signets while while using Dagger Storm. MOREOVER, they can cancel out of Dagger Storm AND KEEP the 8s of Stability – meaning they can use HEAL, AND ALL USE SKILLS while Stable!!

Also, They can get that 8 Seconds of Stability EVERY 90 Seconds, much shorter than most of the Necro elites.

And did I mention that Thieves also have have NINE ways to get into &/or escape Combat using the Shadowstep mechanic – some of which can be used to cover ground quickly, and they have TWO Leaping attacks???
Necros have Two ways to escape combat, but NO GOOD way to cover ground quickly – as when infiltrating or fleeing.

Oh, and … Thieves have MORE THAN A DOZEN WAYS TO STEALTH/CLOAK/GO INVISIBLE!!! – which is the SINGLE MOST POWERFUL Effect in the Game.

Maybe if Necros had a few more ways to cover ground, maybe some invisibility (like Mesmers get x4+), maybe some Evasion (like Mesmers & Elementalists [the other 2 Scholar Professions] get … or and Thieves get Evasion too), then maybe not having practical stability would not be such a big deal.

Just putting this out there. If you are so worried about stability, why not grab 20 points in Death Magic, 2x Traveler Runes, 2x Monk, 2x Water —> 65% boon duration.
—Foot in the Grave is 3 sec stability, with boon duration you get 5 seconds every time you enter DS. Voila.

On a second note, to add to Drarnor Kunoram.
—So thieves get 8 seconds of stability while unable to do much. If they do cancel it, they just canceled their whole elite skill (by that time they are low on health anyway but keep the stability). Nice? Eh…. with the stability, they will have time to heal, stealth away and likely not much more.
-You said it goes on a 90 second cooldown. So 8 secs of stability every 90 seconds. Ok. —Necros get 20 seconds of stability every 180 secs. So basically… almost 3x stability for a 2x longer CD. But wait, that’s not all. Buy 1 and get 1 free. Just kidding. The 20 seconds of stability are accompanied by constant blinds and possibly chills, not to mention massive amount of toughness and HP. True, you can’t cancel it and keep the stability, but you could grab foot in the grave. So on top of Plague, you have 3 seconds (or 5 seconds, if you went with boon duration) every time you enter DS. More access than thief? Possibly. And I say possibly because you could steal stability off of someone, but that’s situational. And even if they did manage to steal it off of someone, you really think a thief will stand there to take a hit with his “stability”? No.

And just to comment on your original post… Antitoxin Spray is a pretty horrid skill. Comparing it to Consume Conditions is worse than comparing Blood Fiend to Healing Signet.

@Noble
The “Why should other professions…” was me responding to your assertion that "Every Professions SHOULD be able to ONLY get Stability as a Grandmaster Trait, if they want to have stability while accessing Heal & other skills. The problem is Necros are THE ONLY Profession that has to do that. " Here, you are inferring that since necros only have stability as a GM trait, this should be the case with all other professions. I am rephrasing your statement in the form of a question and then responded that WoP, which gives stability, invalidates your argument.

If you notice, this also addresses you comment about me saying that FitG was the only way to use skills under stability. But, I have to say, it’s strange that you think I said this as the word “only” does not once appear in my previous posts. I think you mixed me up with someone else, maybe.

And, yes, weapons like the scepter make it difficult to build DS. This is why they must be augmented with weapons like axes, daggers and staffs and spectral skills. If you use them in a timely manner and use DS judiciously, you shouldn’t have that hard a time maintaining a reserve.

Lastly, I don’t mean to be insulting but if you thought Antitoxin and CC were even close to being the same (they’re really, really not…), perhaps you need to take a look at your play style before railing against the game design.

I mean, did you not notice after using it you were still BLEEDING AND/OR ON FIRE? I’m not the best player in the world and even this would get my attention. -_-

@MethaneGas
Practical Stability = Beneficial Stability = Stability that allows you to use HEALS & SKILLS while maintaining Stability.
Also, Practical Stability would NOT Include HAVING to TRAIT for it – especially when that Trait is a Grandmaster Trait like FitG.
Practical Stability would also NOT include having to equip boon runes (or trait for boons) just to make the stability last a reasonably amount of time (meaning a time comparable to the stability of other professions).

On Thieves canceling DS – you have 8 seconds of stability, plenty of stealth, shadowstepping & Healing, so you are far from dead. Infact, with skill and that stability you could be a killing machine. If not, ask Nagato how to improve your play style, he seems to have suggestions.
Once again the 2 Necro Elites that offer stability do NOT OFFER PRACTICAL STABILITY (see definition above). Not sure what you mean by them having 3 times the stability either. You don’t get constant blinding – its once a second with Plague, and ONLY if you use the blinding skill – and thieves & warriors & mesmers & more can attack SEVERAL times a second so only the initial attack will be blinded the others will not be blinded. I don’t think plague chills, and even if it did – I don’t think Thief [weapon] attacks are really affected by chills THOUGH THEY SHOULD BE.
Again, you are ASSUMING that ALL Necros put 30 points in Soul Reaping just to get FitG. That is an illogical assumption & above all does not meet with the requisites of PRACTICAL Stability (see above).

If you want to talk about a Thief Stealing – WHY IS IT that the THIEF Steals Fear from a Necro & yet the STOLEN Fear last 3x LONGER than the Necro’s Fear??? Talk about UNFAIR!!

@Nagato no Kami
Ok, that explains it – you were responding to my sarcastic remark as if it were serious. Sorry about the confusion – what I was trying to point out there is how Completely UNFAIR it is to force Necros to get the GM trait FitG & enter DS just to pop out of it for the 3s of Practical Stability (though it is not very practical if you waste your access to DS), when NO OTHER PROFESSION has such a constraint [namely requiring a GM trait to get PRACTICAL Stability – Every Other Profession gets it from skills]. Basically, I was saying that (as per your argument) if Necros have to waste 30 points in a GM Trait just to get Practical Stability, then it’s only fair that EVERY Profession have to do that [waste 30 points in a GM Trait just to get Practical Stability].

Again, I negated WoP as being NOT Practical Stability – because it does not allow Necros to activate 2 (of the 3) Heals (& may not allow the 3rd), and the WoP stability is not long enough to allow for Necros to Activate MANY of their Skills. If you augment your Scepter with an Off-Hand Dagger, then you are TOTALLY Screwed, because the Scepter offers Very Little DS & the Off-Hand Dagger offers NONE. It is a bit like the staff, only having One Attack that gives you DS (and do not mention traiting for staff DS – which is assninine, because NO OTHER PROFESSION is So Constrained). I don’t know why Anet has chosen to make it so impossibly hard for Necros to get a usable amount of DS (most notably in a One-on-One PvP duel, where it can be IMPOSSIBLE), but as I said, that is another post.

AND to conclude

I wish to clarify, I did not Mean to say that “Antitoxin Spray” & “Consume Conditions” are the Same; what I was saying is that they are pretty similar:
1) Both Heal
2) Both Consume Conditions
3) Both Heal more for Each Condition Consumed

I don’t know of other heals that do #3 – do you? That was Unique to Necro’s CC, was it not? Well, it was until Anet gave it to EVERY Profession. That Irked me, as CC had been special (for Necros only), then it was deminished – now that EVERYONE has a Purge that Heals. And, what made it worse, AS is an AOE HEAL; CC is not. That was the icing on the in-your-face cake.

Hope that clarifies things.

Lastly, not to insult you – but, using your example, “after using [AS] you were still BLEEDING AND/OR ON FIRE” you forget that if you were a Mesmer (or some other professions that UNTIL A.S. WAS ADDED did NOT have a Healing Purge) not only Would you STILL be “BLEEDING AND/OR ON FIRE” you would also STILL be SUFFERING from POISON AND/OR TORMENT AND/OR CONFUSION AND/OR TOXIC POLLEN, if you did not have Antitoxin Spray – because (from have I have read) not Every Profession had a Healing Purge UNTIL AS was Added.
I then used the argument that since Anet is giving EVERYONE a Heal that Consumes Conditions, why not give EVERYONE a Skill that offers PRACTICAL Stability – for the purposes of analogical reasoning.

In addition, since you brought up play style & seem to be a Necro expert, please tell me how you purge your conditions while [on land &] in Death Shroud – because I have not figured that one out yet, because it seems to me that Necros are the ONLY PROFESSION that Cannot Access HEALS or SKILLS & their Professional Mechanic [Death Shroud]. Which, I believe would make Death Shroud more of a Death TRAP than anything.

Let’s be honest, though. The problem with necro isn’t the lack of access to stability, it’s the fact we lack things to supplement it as a defense. Blinds are good, but ours have long cooldowns. Since we lack any other real defensive measure, we need higher access to stability (or some other answer to CC) to be really viable on the defensive front.

For an example, thieves do have worse access to Stability than necros do. However, they supplement it with spammable blinds, stealth, evades up the wazoo, and even some projectile blocking, so it’s not as necessary for them.

Noble.3647:

@MethaneGas
Practical Stability = Beneficial Stability = Stability that allows you to use HEALS & SKILLS while maintaining Stability.
Also, Practical Stability would NOT Include HAVING to TRAIT for it – especially when that Trait is a Grandmaster Trait like FitG.
Practical Stability would also NOT include having to equip boon runes (or trait for boons) just to make the stability last a reasonably amount of time (meaning a time comparable to the stability of other professions).

Ehh… that’s only your definition. Point still stands, thief doesn’t have good “practical stability” by your definition.
-You asked for stability, I showed how you could get 5 seconds of it every 10 (or 7, traited) seconds. Yes. Five seconds of stability every 7 seconds. Hello? That’s kind of a lot? You can heal by popping in and out of Deathshroud. Pop in, pop out. 5 seconds of stability. Safely heal away… walk for 2 seconds. Oh look, DS is already recharged. I was only susceptible to CC for 2 seconds, kinda nice if you ask me.

Noble.3647:

On Thieves canceling DS – you have 8 seconds of stability, plenty of stealth, shadowstepping & Healing, so you are far from dead. Infact, with skill and that stability you could be a killing machine. If not, ask Nagato how to improve your play style, he seems to have suggestions.

As I said earlier… let’s be honest. You expect a thief to stand around with stability, ready to take hits? No. Sure, they could waste their WHOLE elite skill for a simple 8 seconds of stability, which they will waste because they will stealth around or dodge anyway. A good thief is a “killing machine” not because of “8 secs of stability” but cuz of… well.. they do what thieves do. I don’t think I’ve ever, ever seen a thief pop Dagger Storm and quickly out of it just for that 8 secs of stability.

Noble.3647:

Once again the 2 Necro Elites that offer stability do NOT OFFER PRACTICAL STABILITY (see definition above). Not sure what you mean by them having 3 times the stability either. You don’t get constant blinding – its once a second with Plague, and ONLY if you use the blinding skill – and thieves & warriors & mesmers & more can attack SEVERAL times a second so only the initial attack will be blinded the others will not be blinded. I don’t think plague chills, and even if it did – I don’t think Thief [weapon] attacks are really affected by chills THOUGH THEY SHOULD BE.
Again, you are ASSUMING that ALL Necros put 30 points in Soul Reaping just to get FitG. That is an illogical assumption & above all does not meet with the requisites of PRACTICAL Stability (see above).

Those sources of stability are sure as hell better than a waste elite skill for 8 seconds.
-What I meant is this. You get 20 seconds of stability with Plague vs. 8 seconds with Dagger Storm. Plague’s cooldown is TWICE as long as Dagger Storm but it provides stability which is almost 3 times longer.
-Yes it’s once per second but that’s basically the only useful skill on Plague form. I don’t think I’ve ever used anything else. You can also dodge in Plague form, which is enough to dodge any of the flurry-type attacks. You can put 10 points in Curses (Chilling Darkness). Blinds cause Chills. Plague causes blinds. Chill slows attacks, like flurry attacks, for example. Combined with slow attack speed and your dodge while in Plague form, you shouldn’t take much damage (if all enemies are melee. If they aren’t, just chase the ranged person and the melee will follow).

Giving everyone antitoxin spray is not a good comparison to giving everyone stability. Why? Because antitoxin is a pretty bad heal skill, overall. How do I know? I’ve only seen like… 3 people use it in WvW, and those people were torn to pieces while spinning around in their pretty little healing animation. It’s a good heal skill for the Tower of Nightmares tho.

how you purge your conditions while [on land &] in Death Shroud – because I have not figured that one out yet, because it seems to me that Necros are the ONLY PROFESSION that Cannot Access HEALS or SKILLS & their Professional Mechanic [Death Shroud]. Which, I believe would make Death Shroud more of a Death TRAP than anything.

I agree with you on this one. Conditions are a problem while in DS, especially if rooted. Having foot in the grave helps because you can pop out and heal, or transfer, then dodge away. Other than that… it really depends on the situation.
-Calling it a death trap is not right though xD

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Let’s be honest, though. The problem with necro isn’t the lack of access to stability, it’s the fact we lack things to supplement it as a defense. Blinds are good, but ours have long cooldowns. Since we lack any other real defensive measure, we need higher access to stability (or some other answer to CC) to be really viable on the defensive front.

Agreed.
1) It is MUCH More Difficult for Nercos to (accumulate Life Force) to use our Professional Mechanic (Death Shroud) than it is for ANY Other Profession to use Their Professional Mechanic. EVERY other Profession either a) Gains 100% access to their Professional Mechanic either Instantly (Eles & Guards & Engis & Rangers), b) Quickly over Time (Thieves), c) Gain 100% with a Single UTILITY (&/or Weapon) Skill (Warriors), or by Using 2 Skills (Mesmers). And those who (last 2 who) use Weapons Easily get 33%-70% with a SINGE Weapon Skill; Necros get at most c. 10% with a Utility Skill & 2%-12% with a single weapon attack.
2) We have No Shadowstep/Leap/etc. to cover ground Quickly (fleeing or giving chase).
3) Necros are the ONLY profession WITHOUT ANY Practical Stability.
4) Necros have far fewer Interrupts than Any Other Profession – Necros are the ONLY profession WITHOUT ANY Knock-downs/backs or Launches, and Nercros have No Stuns, etc. We rely upon Fear which is a Curable Condition & which is a shorter Fear than other professions get (oh the irony). Fears can be counter productive if you want your prey closer to you rather than further away (e.g., if you have a Main-Hand Dagger).
5) Necros are the ONLY Profession WITHOUT ANY Skills that can Block (or even Evade) an attack.
6) Necros are the ONLY profession WITHOUT ANY access to “Invulnerability” (or Evasion Skills).
7) Necros are the ONLY profession without normal access to Vigor.
8) Necros are the ONLY Profession with NO Close-Range (#1) AOE-arcing attack.
9) Necros are the ONLY Profession with NO access to Heal/Utility/Elite skills while using their Profession Mechanic.
10) Necros have the Incredibly Stupid, Meandering Minions – without any real control over them: They too often ignore who you are attacking & who is attacking you; they prefer to pick their own targets; Even if you Force them to attack a target, they too often forget that they are supposed to continue attacking that target (even though you are still attacking it). Unlike the summoned creatures of other professions, they do not start recharging once summoned. Etc, etc.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

For an example, thieves do have worse access to Stability than necros do.

No, as stated above – Thieves can get 8 seconds of PRACTICAL Stability every 90 seconds; Necros have NO PRACTICAL Stability (unless they trait for it, but having to trait for it is ASININE). Now, as many have said – Necros can get IMpractical Stability with Elites (but Cannot Heal, Cannot Cleanse, Cannot use Skills, Lose ALL Minions, and are NOT IMMUNE TO IMMOBILIZE) – those 2 elites are just impractical. The Lich is especially impractical as you get no armor boost but are suddenly the BIGGEST Target on the field – ever tried using that in a WvW battle? Not a good idea. Unless you want to die quickly.

MethaneGas.8357:

Ehh… that’s only your definition. Point still stands, thief doesn’t have good “practical stability” by your definition.

As a Thief, you do not NATURALLY have access to Practical Stability (if you keep using the skill while you have it), but you DO HAVE ACCESS to PRACTCAL STABILITY if you Exit the skill. AND you can get Access to that PRACTICAL Stability EVERY 90 Seconds. Necros do not – even Entering & Exiting DS after Wasting 30 Points to Get a Grandmaster Trait (FitG) just for stability, you have <3s of Stability; THIEVES GET c. 8 Seconds!! AND THEY DO NOT HAVE TO TRAIT TO GET THOSE 8 SECONDS OF STABILITY!

MethaneGas.8357:

-You asked for stability, I showed how you could get 5 seconds of it every 10 (or 7, traited) seconds. Yes. Five seconds of stability every 7 seconds. Hello? That’s kind of a lot? You can heal by popping in and out of Deathshroud. Pop in, pop out. 5 seconds of stability. Safely heal away… walk for 2 seconds. Oh look, DS is already recharged. I was only susceptible to CC for 2 seconds, kinda nice if you ask me.

/hits repeat at a higher volume
If EVERY PROFESSION has to TRAIT (& USE Boon RUNES/FOOD) for Practical Stability, then your idea would Be Fair. BUT SINCE NO OTHER PROFESSION HAS TO DO THAT – EVERY OTHER PROFESSION GETS ACCESS TO PRACTICAL STABILITY (or Diversion or whatever) WITHOUT TRAITS/BOONS/FOOD [Every Other Profession get it through SKILLS] then it is NOT FAIR: It is Discriminatory to single out a Single Profession & punish them in any such way.

MethaneGas.8357:

You expect a thief to stand around with stability, ready to take hits?

Um, no. Thieves NEVER just “Stand around” & “take hits” (if they can help it) – that is why you go invisible & escape &/or backstab &/or Heal, etc. Because that is what Thieves do.

MethaneGas.8357:

No. Sure, they could waste their WHOLE elite skill for a simple 8 seconds of stability, which they will waste

ROFLMAO!!!!! You speak of a “simple 8 seconds of stability” of wasting your “WHOLE elite skill” which will be “wast[ed]” (though you can get it every 90 seconds) – yet you want a Necro to WASTE 30 points in a Trait line & WASTE their Runes/Food to get about half that much stability. Wow. So ironic.

MethaneGas.8357:

A good thief is a “killing machine” not because of “8 secs of stability” but cuz of… well.. they do what thieves do.

Right, thieves do NOT need Stability because you have the single most Over Powered effect in the game: STEALTH/INVISIBLITY. It causes loss of target (which devastates necros, who rely upon ranged weapons more than ANY other profession). It allows you to flee or attack or heal or whatever you want to do – ALL UNSEEN.

MethaneGas.8357:

Those sources of stability are sure as hell better than a waste elite skill for 8 seconds.

O_o
As a thief you do not value stability because you do not need it, having 9+ different ways to Stealth.
And I just wish that you understood how hilarious your statement is – AGAIN you are complaining about ONLY getting 8 SECONDS of PRACTICAL Stability (where you can do ANYTHING you WANT – Even STEALTH), and yet you want Necros to spend an entire Trait line & ALL their Runes to get less than 8 seconds of stability. All you have to do is pop an elite.

MethaneGas.8357:

-What I meant is this. You get 20 seconds of stability with Plague vs. 8 seconds with Dagger Storm. Plague’s cooldown is TWICE as long as Dagger Storm but it provides stability which is almost 3 times longer.

8×3 = 24 not 20. And while using Plague or Lich, Necros get NO HEALS, NO UTILITY SKILLS, NO CLEANSE (ok, Lich may let you once?). You can do all of those in the 8s you can get from DS.

MethaneGas.8357:

-Yes it’s once per second but that’s basically the only useful skill on Plague form.

THANK YOU Plague form is pretty useless. So is Lich for that matter.

MethaneGas.8357:

You can put 10 points in Curses (Chilling Darkness).

You know you have already used up 40 Trait points, right? 30 in SR & 10 here in Curses, and considering you spent all of your runes on Boon extension, I am a little concerned about your build.

MethaneGas.8357:

I agree with you on this one. Conditions are a problem while in DS, especially if rooted. Having foot in the grave helps because you can pop out and heal, or transfer, then dodge away. Other than that… it really depends on the situation.
-Calling it a death trap is not right though xD

Thanks. And, tell me, when you are using DS & get rooted and you have a string of conditions that go all the way across the screen, tell me that you could not feel that Death Shroud being lowered over your face as you were forced to slump your shoulders in defeat? LOL

That’s why I call it a Death TRAP – no escape, just death.

OK, ok.. so after reading what you wrote… I realize you don’t play a Necromancer and likely have no comprehension of what was written.

P.S. TRY TO USE LESS CAPS! It makes it seem like YOU are YELLING!

Dear friend, you are very misinformed.
1) If you are a good Necro, managing your death shroud isn’t a huge issue anymore. Grab Soul Marks.
2) Dark Path, Spectral Walk, Flesh Wurm
3) Not true.
4) Are you serious….?
-Warhorn 4 (Strengthened with Banshee’s Wail for 3 second AoE daze and Rune of Mesmer to make a 4 second AoE daze). Please, before replying in more caps, let that settle in. Breathe in. Breathe out. A 4 second AoE daze, if you desired it.
-Staff 5 (can add up to a 2 second AoE FEAR – can deal damage). Now, breathe in, let that settle in. Two seconds of enemies running AWAY from you with the potential of losing 1.2k per SECOND. Area of Effect.
-Doom (Single target fear, can go up to 2 seconds – can deal damage)
-Spectral wall —AoE fear, can go up to 2 seconds – can deal damage. Let that settle in as well. A line which causes people to run away from it for two seconds and deals 1.2k dmg per second, if traited. Spectral grasp, corrupt boon (can cause fear – can deal damage), well of corruption (can cause fear – can deal damage), Flesh Golem (knockback/knockdown)), Chilling Wind (pushback from Lich), Reaper’s Protection (trait that causes up to 4 seconds fear around you, when CCed.. long cooldown tho.), Fear of Death (trait that causes up to 2 seconds of fear when you are downed).
5) We do have blinds. AoE Blinds. Particularly that notorious 20 sec blind? Plague? Yeah, that one.
6) You are concerned abour survival, I assume. Spectral Armor (6 seconds, or 9 seconds, traited) + Deathshroud = VERY similar capability to an Endure Pain.
7) No vigor is tricky, although well of power could give you a century long vigor by constantly converting bleed spam into Vigor. Also, runes of Energy solve this problem without ever needing Vigor.
8) We don’t need to get close to cause AoE, we can do it all from range. However, I’m sure you are referring to power weapons, which don’t have cleave.
9) We don’t need it. It would be flat out OP.
10) I disagree. Minions are not bad if you aren’t WvWing.
Now… for the juicy parts:

Ok, seriously. The point is…. a thief can’t do kitten with stability. Why? Because they are a thief and won’t get hit anyway! Why? Because they are a thief and won’t get hit anyway. Now everyone together. “Why? Because —-”
—So even if they do choose to cancel a whole elite skill in hopes of getting that 8 sec of stability which they won’t even utilize, their access (or lack of access, rather) to stability is completely irrelevant because they do not even need it. Period.

“Um, no. Thieves NEVER just “Stand around” & “take hits” (if they can help it) – that is why you go invisible & escape &/or backstab &/or Heal, etc. Because that is what Thieves do.”
—My question was rhetorical.

“yet you want a Necro to WASTE 30 points in a Trait line & WASTE their Runes/Food to get about half that much stability. Wow. So ironic.”
-The problem with your statement is this. To gain any usefulness out of that Dagger Storm stability, you have to cancel the elite skill itself so you can perform your other functions, which is what we referring to here (To be clear, I think the stability WHILE spinning is great. Just to put that out there). This means canceling your WHOLE elite skill so you can keep stability. When you use Plague, you DO NOT waste your elite skill because you use it for its full potential. For 20 seconds, you are immune to CC (if it isn’t removed, etc), you BLIND people around you, and you are incredibly tanky. So, again to summarize. Enter Dagger Storm, a thief elite skill. Dodge out of it, keep stability. Whole elite skill wasted. You stealth away because you are low, stability runs out, you had no use out of it. On the OTHER hand, as a Necro, you pop Plague, and for 20 seconds you are tanking heaven and hell. There is a big, big, BIG difference between the two scenarios. One is a waste, the other is not. It is true that you cannot use your other skills while in plague form, which doesn’t really matter because you probably won’t die any time soon as Plague.

—If you are in a power build, and even certain condi builds, 30 points in Soul Reaping is actually quite nice. Not only does it make you a lot more tankier, it provides high critical hit damage, and, as we mentioned earlier, stability. Now… if you do go with the runes, and 20 points in death magic, 10 in Spite and 10 in Curses, for example, you’ll have that boon duration. Two sigils of battle will give you 3 stacks of might, each, for 33 seconds. In other words, you’ll maintain 9 might stacks throughout the fight. Now, 10 points in Spite can grant you Reaper’s Might (25 seconds of might per Life Blast). Now, if you grab Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew (40% endurance refill and 1 might for 8 seconds per dodge, with boon duration), you’ll maintain around… 15 might stacks for the entire fight, while ALSO having extra endurance regen. You can choose to grab Blood is Power for an extra 20 seconds of 10 stacks of might. So, 25 might stacks. On top of that, you’ve got Stability for 5 seconds when entering death shroud. Now, which part of 30 Soul Reaping points and the Boon duration runes is a waste?

Thieves and necromancers are entirely different classes and have different means of fighting and sustain. Comparing them is really silly.

Also, if you’re using Dagger Storm just to cancel it and take the stability, you’re doing it wrong.

MethaneGas.8357:

OK, ok.. so after reading what you wrote… I realize you don’t play a Necromancer and likely have no comprehension of what was written.

How about we meet up in a dueling pvp room & you can show me just how to play a Necro – show me just how much more comprehension you have than I do. Just how good are you? Are you Game?

No, I actually play a Necro as my main (& I probably have more hours on that one character than you do in the whole game).
1) Again you baffle me with your want to use traits to do something that EVERY OTHER Profession gets WITHOUT TRAITING. You completely fail to comprehend that Forcing Necros to rely upon Traits to get/accomplish what EVERY OTHER Profession gets WITHOUT TRAITING. Get a decent amount of DS in a PvP Duel without traiting for it – that might impress me.
2) What are you doing here? Are you pursuing someone using those? These Teleports are not practical for covering ground quickly, not like Blink, Lightning Flash, etc. where you INSTANTLY go to the Targeted point. Dark Path is slow, does not penetrate, easy to dodge, and can hit the wrong target, and it has pretty weak range AND you NEED a TARGET for it to work. Also, you have to have enough DS to use it. Spectral Walk is just a speedboost you can teleport w/ Recall, but only Backward – which does not help you progress. Flesh Wurm can be used to escape, but only if you have it set up somewhere & it is still alive when you need it. NOT ONE of those is useful in moving quickly across the map. Quotes taken from the Wiki: “A Leap is a skill mechanic that causes the user to rapidly move forward a certain distance.” “Shadowstepping is a mechanic that allows the user to move instantly from one place to another.”
I would like to see you try & use the wurm to cover ground quickly, though. If it did not take 1.5s to activate, it would be useful, but it does so it isn’t. If Dark Path allowed us to target an area & teleport to it instantly, yeah, that would be very good (if you had the DS for it), but it doesn’t.
3) Proven above.
4) a) I did not say anything about daze – maybe you are confusing daze with stun, but they are VERY different and Stun is MUCH better as it disables/immobilizes.
b & c) Those fears lasts 1 Second each. I assume you are spending traits again to justify your argument, because it is unsubstantiated without them & weak with them. So you were giving me a build in which you spent “10 in Spite and 10 in Curses, for … boon duration” & 40 Trait points in SR for FitG Stability, and Soul Marks & Terror & Master of Terror – but … wait, not only can you not put 40 in SR, you can Only get 2 of the 4 Traits that you want (because they are all Master–Level or Higher), so the Build that you have suggested that I use is IMPOSSIBLE. And that is THE problem with being Forced to Rely upon Traits for Effects that every other Profession gets freely with Untraited Basic Skills. I understand now that you were looking in a mirror when you said, “I realize you don’t play a Necromancer and likely have no comprehension of what was written.” Though the Trait suggestions were written by you. Or maybe you heard me whispering it back to you as I read what was written. And all of your "can"s are hilarious. I am talking about given, constant facts based on guaranteed skills – you are saying you “can” do this, if you trait for this and that, or if you use this & they have that.
5) Again, your logic baffles me. I say we don’t have Blocks or Evasion; you implicitly concur and mention blinds which are not the same (and the one you mention only lasts a second, I told you that) are not something that I brought up, but since you brought it up. Blinds block ONE attack. Blocks may block one attack, or may block ALL Attacks for 3 seconds or so. MOST Blocks Recharge in 15 Seconds or Less. Necros get one Blinding Weapon Attack, while the Other 2 Scholar Professions Each get 3 – the 3 Elementalist Blinds recharge in 10s, 10s, & 15s; Mesmers get a 12s Recharge – we get ONE Weapon Blinding with an 18s recharge, nearly double that of the Ele. And did I mention that Mesmers & Eles both have Blocks/Evasion?? Necros do not.
6) Here again, you are talking about something completely different. I do, however, think that is the way DS was designed – in Beta, when it was MUCH easier to get it, it was more tanky. As we both agree – if DS had healing/cleansing properties, yeah, it might just compensate, but as it is – NO.
7) We can’t use runes of vigor – we have boon runes, remember?
8) My point is Necros are forced to rely too heavily upon ranged weapons (we are the ONLY PROFESSION with but a Single Melee weapon & it only attacks one foe with its #1 & #2 attacks), as it painfully obvious when fighting a thief or mesmer who goes invisible & causes you to lose target. If we used Dark Pact or actually had Stuns melee weapons would be more effective. Also, close–range aoe is useful when you have someone (or a pet) rezing someone else, so that you can hit BOTH & not have to target just one.

9) Not saying that it would not be, only that it is a fact; but since we are so deprived on the other points, I am willing to negotiate. And, as I said, Stealth/Invisibility is already “flat–out OP” since causes loss of target & has such a brief cooldown. So spread the OP around. That would be fair – if every profession had some OP qualities; I mean several of them have OP qualities now, why not give everyone some?
10) OH, but I am WvWing & PvPing, so Minions are ridiculously bad. But, yeah, in 1/3 of the game, they are not too bad – though they are pretty horrible in some of the fractals too – the ones with the platforms/mazes; minions hate those.

Let me settle this for good:

Generally, when I talk about Professional Skills/Abilities/Professional Mecanics/etc., I am talking about UNTRAITED Weapon &/or Utility (&/or Elite) Skills.

So, PLEASE stop pulling traits out of thin air as if everyone should have all the traits that you mentions JUST to get the basic requirements that Every Other Profession Gets WITHOUT having to Trait for them.

======

Oh, I guess that you forgot that it was YOU who brought up that thieves not having decent stability. I think we both agree they don’t really need it … they have Stealth & Shadowstepping and are pretty OP if they are good using those 2 Effects. Seems we are both answering each other rhetorical (or sarcastic) questions.
You are still not understanding what I am saying. You said Necros could pop in & out of DS to get Practical Stability (ONLY IF TRAITED); I said Thieves can pop in & out of DS to do the same & get MORE Stability out of it (WITHOUT BEING TRAITED). The popping in & out was your idea. I do not think Necros (or Thieves) should have to do that. But, we both agree – Thieves do not need Stability like Necros do. And, while Thief DS is Guaranteed every 90s; Necros are NOT Guaranteed DS, we have to earn it in combat at an exceedingly slow rate. Thus, Thief Stability is better – it is Practical Stability, it is Untraited, it Lasts Longer, and it is Guaranteed. Necro stability is none of that (except possibly Practical, but ONLY if traited to DS & you pop in & out; which is still asinine).
I see you keep going back to Plague – while ignoring the concept of PRACTICAL Stability; Plague does NOT allow you to Use Skills (Destroys All Minions) & does NOT allow you to HEAL. So, no, the elite is not wasted so much as the STABILITY is WASTED.
“you probably won’t die any time soon as Plague” – well this proves that you don’t WvW (& likely don’t PvP) much. Plague (without Heal or Cleanse) is a bit like Death Shroud … meaning a Death Trap, but not as much of one as Lich (due to the Easy Target factor).

Yeah, I know, I have tried Soul Reaping (with some of the skills that you mentioned, and I clung to Soul Marks for quite some time, for, as you say, it is the BEST Way to use weapons to accumulate LF), and yes I was very tanky, but not that powerful. I gradually realized that Anet does not really want Necros to be Minion Master (because Minions are so weak & Stupid), and because we do not have great bursting weapons (consider the Mesmer Sword & GS) they do not want us to have power builds either. That leaves Necros with conditions – I don’t like it, but it seems the best option. I may have to try your build in pvp – I’d like to duel you as a test.

I do wish that you would understand the point was, that NO PROFESSION SHOULD have to Rely upon Traits or Runes to access that EVERY Other Profession gets by 1) The Nature of the Profession (as with the Professional Mechanic) or 2) with Weapons/Utility Skills (the PM, and Stability, and Evasion/Invulnerability, Blocks, Stuns, etc). All of your examples rely HEAVILY (if not Entirely) on Traits in an effort to refute what I have said. But I am discussing basikittenraited skills, Weapons/Utility Skills, not traits. Should a Mesmer have to rely upon Traits to use Illusions effectively, or an Ele on Traits Attune to elements properly, or an Engi to access Device/Tool Kits, etc? The answer is they DO NOT, but Necros need to be traited to get decent life force (as in a PvP Duel). Should any profession have to be traited to access Practical Stability? No profession does … except Necros.

Noble.3647:

1) Again you baffle me with your want to use traits to do something that EVERY OTHER Profession gets WITHOUT TRAITING. You completely fail to comprehend that Forcing Necros to rely upon Traits to get/accomplish what EVERY OTHER Profession gets WITHOUT TRAITING. Get a decent amount of DS in a PvP Duel without traiting for it – that might impress me.

Every other profession? False argument full of fluff. Maybe you should reroll to that “every other profession”. I don’t follow many “necro pros” but one that I see post sometimes is Rennoko, who does NOT use stun breaks. Now let that settle in. If you want your stability THAT badly, by all means, go and trait in for it. A good necro can do without. And I repeat, a GOOD Necro. Just as an FYI, elementalists also heavily trait into their class mechanic, as do beast master rangers, engi, etc etc. Necro is no different. If you want the full potential, you must learn how to use it, first and foremost, then trait for it if you feel a lack. It’s simple logic. I would gladly duel you, as I’m surprised in all your hours of playing you have yet to learn the basics, or at least you make it sound that way….

2) What are you doing here? Are you pursuing someone using those? These Teleports are not practical for covering ground quickly, not like Blink, Lightning Flash, etc. where you INSTANTLY go to the Targeted point. Also, you have to have enough DS to use it. Spectral Walk is just a speedboost you can teleport w/ Recall, but only Backward – which does not help you progress. Flesh Wurm can be used to escape, but only if you have it set up somewhere & it is still alive when you need it. NOT ONE of those is useful in moving quickly across the map.

Let me quote what you said earlier “fleeing or giving chas”.
Your examples of covering ground quickly were with respect to chasing or fleeing from an enemy. We don’t have many leaps or point+click teleports, which are sometimes used to catch up to your opponent. You stop here, dust off your hands and say you’re right. Stopping here, though, is silly, as it leave off the impression that we can’t catch our prey and can’t escape. We’ve got a VAST array of slows and interrupts which we can use to catch up to the enemy. For example, dagger #3, Axe #3, Staff #3, Scepter #2, Corrupt Boon (if you corrupt their swiftness, for example), etc. These slow the target, allowing you to come closer. Then, you use Dark Path. You teleport the target and FURTHER slow them with a chill. Can even fear them backwards. So yes, we don’t have leaps, point+click teleports, but that does not mean we can’t chase down an opponent. SW and Wurm are leaning towards fleeing/juking. So we do have a means to escape as well. You tried to use your argument to make it seem like we can’t catch up to an enemy and can’t escape. Obviously this isn’t true. On a side note, quote wiki all you want to add fluff to your arguments. (Fluff definitions: “make (something) appear fuller and softer by shaking or brushing it” and “entertainment or writing perceived as trivial or superficial”)…. A fluffy coat doesn’t make it right.

Noble.3647:

4) a) I did not say anything about daze – maybe you are confusing daze with stun, but they are VERY different and Stun is MUCH better as it disables/immobilizes.
b & c) etc etc.

No, you said “far fewer interrupts than anyone else”. Which is a flat out lie. Again, read my point again. You said we have far fewer interrupts, I gave you all the interrupts we have the potential of having. In my examples, I have used condi duration food and traits to show you to what EXTENT the skills could work, and just how POWERFUL they actually are. They are perfectly fine without any traits in them what-so-ever. Any person would realise I was not assuming in having 30 points in all trait lines, while at the same time having multiple sets of armor at the same time with different runes all applying at the same time… cuz really that’s just silly. Again, your fluff doesn’t help you.

5) Again, your logic baffles me. I say we don’t have Blocks or Evasion; you implicitly concur and mention blinds which are not the same (and the one you mention only lasts a second, I told you that) are not something that I brought up, but since you brought it up. Blinds block ONE attack. Blocks may block one attack, or may block ALL Attacks for 3 seconds or so. And did I mention that Mesmers & Eles both have Blocks/Evasion?? Necros do not.

No, you said we have no blocks, which is true. I then said we do have blinds instead to JUSTIFY our lack of blocks (although Well of power could turn burning into aegis, as an aside). Blinds are basically like blocks, but a bit more offensive and can be used to help an ally. Yes, it can help an ally. Erm… a 20 second blind blocks far more than any block in the game would ever hope to block, unless you are being trashed by a zerg of 100 people and use engi/warrior block/guard heal skill, which is really situational, in terms of the amount of blocks you do manage to block. As for your last statement in the paragraph… Mesmers and eles have no health pool. Their evades MUST be there to make up for a much lower health pool. Period. It’s called balance.

Noble.3647:

7) We can’t use runes of vigor – we have boon runes, remember?

There is no such thing as “rune of energy”, that was my mis-spelling. My apologies. I meant SIGIL of energy. So…. I throw out this unknown “rune of energy” out there, and you don’t even go research what it does? Really.

8) My point is Necros are forced to rely too heavily upon ranged weapons (we are the ONLY PROFESSION with but a Single Melee weapon & it only attacks one foe with its #1 & #2 attacks), as it painfully obvious when fighting a thief or mesmer who goes invisible & causes you to lose target. If we used Dark Pact or actually had Stuns melee weapons would be more effective. Also, close–range aoe is useful when you have someone (or a pet) rezing someone else, so that you can hit BOTH & not have to target just one.

How does that make any difference in the world? Seriously. Attacking from range is in most cases better than doing it from melee. I personally hate using melee weapons, but that’s just me. We’ve likely got more AoE than any other profession (except MAYBE staff ele) out there and you want MORE AoE? If you read about the crowd control/interrupts I mentioned earlier, you can use many of those to fear the target who is ressing… or alternatively, drop AoE to damage both the resser and the downed person. So, the downed person will lose health, as will the person ressing. Two birds with one stone. Problem solved. With that much AoE at your disposal… a stealthed person shouldn’t be a problem. They are actually quite predictable in their movements, especially thieves. A single mark can tell you where they are.

Noble.3647:

9) Not saying that it would not be, only that it is a fact; but since we are so deprived on the other points, I am willing to negotiate. And, as I said, Stealth/Invisibility is already “flat–out OP” since causes loss of target & has such a brief cooldown. So spread the OP around. That would be fair – if every profession had some OP qualities; I mean several of them have OP qualities now, why not give everyone some?

While that seems fair, it would make all the classes basically the same class. If you see a burn/terror necro with perma stability, vigor, protection, able to stealth, block and evade…wouldn’t that first and foremost be OP? And Second, wouldn’t that look a lot like other classes? In terms of what is available? Then you are basically playing the same class with different particle effects. That’s not a game that I, or most other people, would want to play. I understand what you are saying about fairness, but just because “they have it and we don’t” doesn’t mean we are weaker. We just perform that function in a different way. For example… no blocks, but access to blinds/cripples/chills/CC to negate damage. Both can be used to protect you, but in a different way (not to mention CC can be used to protect an ally, as opposed to just yourself). Similarly, applying protection to yourself protects you, and only you from all incoming attacks. But you are a single target. Necros have the notorious ability to weaken for a long time in an AoE fashion. So, instead of protecting THEMSELVES through protection, they weaken the ENEMY. It’s basically the same effect, except weakening a group of enemies helps allies too.

PLEASE stop pulling traits out of thin air as if everyone should have all the traits that you mentions JUST to get the basic requirements that Every Other Profession Gets WITHOUT having to Trait for them.

Sorry, no can do. It isn’t fair to compare professions in such a manner. Excluding distortion, which is a short duration and a super long cooldown, Mesmers have a mantra that gives em stability. A mantra. You call that ”practical” stability, I call it BAD stability. Same goes for thieves. BAD stability. Just because it has a label and it exists doesn’t make it good. Not by a long shot. We could do a similar thing when comparing ANY two professions and compare what Necros have and other don’t. ANY. Different professions achieve things in different ways, and ignoring traits and runes, sigils is silly, as it is a fundamental part of build, as are weapons and utility skills, as WELL as elite skills. That’s the thing you are omitting and using for your argument and it’s simply not right because you are looking at only one piece of the puzzle. Very narrow scope of things which you consider. Sure you can argue that certain piece of a puzzle is colour red, but the other 100 pieces of the puzzle are all blue. “Yeah but that one little piece is red.” See what I mean? This is why they (thieves and mesmers) are in the same boat as a Necro, in terms of stability. So your “Necros are ONLY” profession argument can’t possibly stand true, and it isn’t.
-This is presicely why I showed you the build with the boon duration, as it looks at the WHOLE picture, runes, sigils, traits, everything coming together. Looking at only the boon duration could be shrugged off as “lack luster” but in reality, it could be composed into something quite powerful.

they have Stealth & Shadowstepping and are pretty OP if they are good using those 2 Effects.

Thieves OP? Thieves stopped being a problem for me about… 8 months ago. They can stealth and teleport all they want. If you catch them and time your skills well (in other words, understand how a thief thinks), you can evaporate their health in no time.

The popping in & out was your idea. I do not think Necros (or Thieves) should have to do that. But, we both agree – Thieves do not need Stability like Necros do. And, while Thief DS is Guaranteed every 90s; Necros are NOT Guaranteed DS, we have to earn it in combat at an exceedingly slow rate.

Compare popping in and out every 90 seconds, and popping in and out every 10 seconds. There is a HUGE difference between the two, HUGE. Comparing it is silly.
-Managing Deathshroud is an art. If you master it, it won’t be a problem anymore and thus you will always have it available for stability, whenever you need it.