Terror is overpowered. It pushes our damage over the top. Our damage is fine otherwise as power and condition builds.
Our survivability is as awful as it was before the patch — maybe even worse because we have to give up Soul Marks to be viable. (Although I do find it more engaging and interesting, from a gameplay standpoint, that we now have to properly time and maximize Feast of Corruption to get life force.)
This puts terror in a bad position. If you don’t take Dhuumfire, terror is fine. If you do, then terror does too much damage. If you nerf terror, you basically destroy all of the old builds that used terror, and those builds weren’t OP in the slightest. Maybe its burning that needs nerfed. Burning is still pretty strong even with no condition damage. With condition damage, burning alone can kill people.
Remember that you don’t need berserker to get big lifeblasts anymore, valkyrie is also an option. Plus I was landing hits above 4k with soldiers when I was messing around with builds. Whether valkyrie is appropriate to your build and playstyle is another matter, but keep it in mind. Likewise with soldier. The extra 20% crit damage on berserker only comes out to an extra ~10% damage on lifeblast crits.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
I find it both sad and amusing that when we get a patch that buffs us and brings us closer to balance with most of the other classes we immediately expect to be nerfed and worry about being op.
I have been a using a power/well build for a long time and after moving some points around yesterday I settled on 0/10/10/20/30 with Death Perception. Torment is a real boon for locking people down and landing wells. Death Perception is really nice and combined with the new LB scaling I can spend more time in DS without feeling like a drain. All around boost for me, but I still get eaten alive by cc just like before. We are definitely doing better, but we are certainly not op.
Also, I have been stomping thieves long before this patch because I have enough def to eat the burst and still be able to go after them. Prior to the patch they would just reset and run or die. Now if I get shackles off they just die.
I find it both sad and amusing that when we get a patch that buffs us and brings us closer to balance with most of the other classes we immediately expect to be nerfed and worry about being op.
I have been a using a power/well build for a long time and after moving some points around yesterday I settled on 0/10/10/20/30 with Death Perception. Torment is a real boon for locking people down and landing wells. Death Perception is really nice and combined with the new LB scaling I can spend more time in DS without feeling like a drain. All around boost for me, but I still get eaten alive by cc just like before. We are definitely doing better, but we are certainly not op.
Also, I have been stomping thieves long before this patch because I have enough def to eat the burst and still be able to go after them. Prior to the patch they would just reset and run or die. Now if I get shackles off they just die.
I think everyone is just overwhelmed by the contrast of then and now. It’s either that or the developers did more psychological damage than anyone had realized.
Vile Necromancer||Defender of the Beastgate||Slayer of Moa’s
Terror is overpowered. It pushes our damage over the top. Our damage is fine otherwise as power and condition builds.
This puts terror in a bad position. If you don’t take Dhuumfire, terror is fine. If you do, then terror does too much damage. If you nerf terror, you basically destroy all of the old builds that used terror, and those builds weren’t OP in the slightest. Maybe its burning that needs nerfed. Burning is still pretty strong even with no condition damage. With condition damage, burning alone can kill people.
I don’t think I understand. How does terror do different amounts of damage whether or not you take Dhuumfire? How can burning alone kill people? Is your real argument that if you time a condition duration-enhanced fear with a Dhuumfire proc in a 30/20/-/-/- terror build you can do quite a bit of damage once every 40 or so seconds? If so, are there hard numbers on exactly how much damage?
After playing a few tourneys against some relatively high ranked people (1000-) on leaderboards, I think that spectral wall + fear mechanics need to be nerfed slightly, I was getting feared all over the place, partially due to my own errors, but I think it was a bit much.
Terror is overpowered. It pushes our damage over the top. Our damage is fine otherwise as power and condition builds.
This puts terror in a bad position. If you don’t take Dhuumfire, terror is fine. If you do, then terror does too much damage. If you nerf terror, you basically destroy all of the old builds that used terror, and those builds weren’t OP in the slightest. Maybe its burning that needs nerfed. Burning is still pretty strong even with no condition damage. With condition damage, burning alone can kill people.
I don’t think I understand. How does terror do different amounts of damage whether or not you take Dhuumfire? How can burning alone kill people? Is your real argument that if you time a condition duration-enhanced fear with a Dhuumfire proc in a 30/20/-/-/- terror build you can do quite a bit of damage once every 40 or so seconds? If so, are there hard numbers on exactly how much damage?
I don’t find either of them OP. I don’t even find them OP together. However, this is the argument other people are going to make when calling for nerfs, which has already begun to happen. If terror wasn’t OP before, I don’t see why it is now.
People aren’t used to conditions being able to burst like that. When you bring up the fact that terror and burning together do a little over 2k damage per second, they suddenly kitten a brick, not realizing that HGH engineers were doing something similar with grenade damage + conditions (which engineers can still do, HGH has not been nerfed).
I have to agree. We’re talking about 60 trait points, with at most one of six of the major choices being “defensive”, and realistically none of the minors being meaningfully defensive. A burning/terror build does crazy damage, no one can deny that, especially when you can might stack now and have some really high hybrid damage, but you are really squishy when you do this. People were saying the old 0/30/10/0/30 builds were too squishy, well I hate to break it but you just got a hell of a lot squishier if you want “OP” damage.
That is meaningful trade offs, and balance. Sure you can do high damage (at it is high damage), but at the cost of being more fragile than a cheap, wet, one ply piece of toilet paper. I think that is a good place for balance to be. We should be able to do the same damage as super glass builds, and we should be just as glassy for it. Now we are, and that is good.
Well, saying Dhuumfire should be removed is completely overreacting. If there’s any problem, it’s how it interacts with Terror, but that’s more a problem with Terror’s placement and overall effectiveness than Dhuumfire.
So let me get this right, just because now you can burst damage using Terror + Dhuumfire, they are OP now? Since when attacks need to be nerfed just because they can be chained? All of the classes have certain burst rotation that sync well together for optimal damage. I hate this stupid overuse of the word OP.
In any case, I’m running a pure power build and I doubt I’ll use that Dhuumfire over the 20% increased damage. If you want to couple it with terror, then you won’t be able to have 30 in Soul Reaping.
We can have a long debate whether dhuumfire + terror outDPSs 20% extra damage <50% health + 5% extra damage with LF greater than 50% + 50% extra crit in DS.
80 Necromancer (Main) | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 80 Warrior
Engineer and Elementalist in progress…
Conditions just aren’t supposed to be so bursty. The combination is too much, mostly because Terror is too accessible and probably a little too effective at the moment.
Because of access to torment and how we can force movement with fear, we would still be the top condition damage even without Terror. I don’t think a slight nerf to it would be the end of the world.
Scepter/Dagger necros got too strong imho, I always liked the S/D Rabid build but it’s just way too good now, conditionmancer can officially burst better than most DPS builds at this point. Also I like the improvement on signet of spite, but perhaps they went too far with it. The weakness duration on Dagger OH and Signet of Spite also seem a bit extreme considering the recent buff to weakness, I mean 11 secs from both abilities? Necro just feels too good at this point, the way mesmers did before the confusion fix. Only D/D eles can keep up with the condition stacking at this point imo.
Conditions just aren’t supposed to be so bursty. The combination is too much, mostly because Terror is too accessible and probably a little too effective at the moment.
Because of access to torment and how we can force movement with fear, we would still be the top condition damage even without Terror. I don’t think a slight nerf to it would be the end of the world.
tbh i think it should apply like 2 stacks of torment instead of burning.. necros didn’t need burning imo
I’d say three stacks, but this makes perfect sense. I have no idea why the developers didn’t do that instead.
Think of it this way, just the fact that you can have a hybrid build, this means condition builds CAN be bursty. If you have a condition build, and you want dhuumfire, then you must have 30 in spite, and at least 25 in curses (Target the weak), this leaves 10-15 points to place wherever you see fit. Let us say Soul Reaping for little more DS and crit damage. You now technically have placed points in the power/precision-condition/critical damage trait lines which can work for both condition and power builds.
Cheers!
80 Necromancer (Main) | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 80 Warrior
Engineer and Elementalist in progress…
They are quite overpowered. Their fear access, mixed with Torment, is simply nonsensical. Adalime went 9-0 in a dueling server, and went 12-1 in a tPvP against a premade on a Terrormancer build, and I, using the same build, dominated a Beastmaster Regen Ranger in under 17 seconds trapping him in a corner with fear.
Contact me ingame for Necro, Ranger, Mesmer, and Thief advice.
I have to say that I do feel a bit OP but my build hasn’t changed at all. :/
Numbers may need some tweaking. If it gets rid of all these new FOTM players and doesn’t nuked us into the ground, I’m fine with us being toned down a little.
Necromancers are stronger now in 1v1, but a good D/P + S/D Thief will still wreck you, or you can still get focus and cc’ed to death by 2-3 players without being able to do much about it.
Conditions aren’t meant to be bursty and they’re not, but if you are able to apply many, yes they are meant to get people down, good players spec for cleanse and will CC us as much as they can because that’s our weakness.
We ARE the condition class, if our conditions aren’t feared by other classes, then why have necros in the game. Before this patch other players hardly ever feared going up against a necro, they were more scared of thieves and mesmers. Just wait till people actually learn to play against a necro.
No one is in the position to call anything, especially 1 day after the patch, when 1 class receives this many changes it affects more than just that class.
Just gotta jump in here and +1 this. You guys are a PITA now, and that’s as it should be IMO. Before, I’m sorry to say, Necros were totally UP in WvW. Now they’re competitive. Very happy for you guys.
Imagine, a class that actually IMPROVED with a patch! GASP!!!! ;-)
Allow me to fear you into a corner for 10 seconds, while stacking conditions. STABILITY?! lulz, eat Spinal Shivers and continue to be feared to death. GG.
Add weakness stacking and you can go glass cannon. Necromancers are broken, simple as that.
The necromancer got what it was told it would – we are great fighters who have nice survival tools (DS sustain, CC, etc), but have to stay in the “pocket”. We do not have the mobility of other classes and can not disengage at will, but in a straigth up fight, we are really strong.
This this this^ at first i thought we might be OP but we lack escape tools and dont hav the best mobility. A theif can escape a fight or a 2v1. Necro cannot, we need to be somewhat powerful to make up for that imo. And the patch put us in that right place.
Just gotta jump in here and +1 this. You guys are a PITA now, and that’s as it should be IMO. Before, I’m sorry to say, Necros were totally UP in WvW. Now they’re competitive. Very happy for you guys.
Imagine, a class that actually IMPROVED with a patch! GASP!!!! ;-)
……..Necromancers are broken, simple as that.
Cause they aren’t freeloot in 1v1 Situations now ? And yes ….. Corners are everywhere oO ……
Just gotta jump in here and +1 this. You guys are a PITA now, and that’s as it should be IMO. Before, I’m sorry to say, Necros were totally UP in WvW. Now they’re competitive. Very happy for you guys.
Imagine, a class that actually IMPROVED with a patch! GASP!!!! ;-)
Allow me to fear you into a corner for 10 seconds, while stacking conditions. STABILITY?! lulz, eat Spinal Shivers and continue to be feared to death. GG.
Add weakness stacking and you can go glass cannon. Necromancers are broken, simple as that.
exaggerating a little much? we only hav 3 fears. 1 of them being the wall which the enemy has to walk through(not reliable). im pretty positive all 3 of them combined could not last even close to 10 secs even with duration buffed to max. If they did just stunbreak and problem solved lol. u hav 20 and 40 secs now before the 2 fears recharge.
I think the most hardcore buff to fear was to DS3.
When near to an opponent it gets off a fear for 1.5 Sec if you go +100% Fearduration you get 3 Seconds of fear on a 20 (17) second cooldown which isn’t that hard to achieve and even without runes you get +80% from 30/20/0/0/20.
That makes your shortest cooldown-fear also the most dangerous.
All this time whining about CD being useless and now whining about being OP?
Good Grenth, now I see why many people complain about complainers, there is no way to make you happy, jeez.
Well, this implying those are legitimate complains and not a bunch of stupid kids too used to see necros as easy preys upset because they can’t kill a necro with 1 single skill.
Why fix the Necromancer for free when we can charge $$$ for the Revenant
-ArenaNet
I think the most hardcore buff to fear was to DS3.
When near to an opponent it gets off a fear for 1.5 Sec if you go +100% Fearduration you get 3 Seconds of fear on a 20 (17) second cooldown which isn’t that hard to achieve and even without runes you get +80% from 30/20/0/0/20.
That makes your shortest cooldown-fear also the most dangerous.
Ye the fear is pretty good, but compare 30/20/0/0/20 with 30/30/10/0/0 you have to give up 100 Condition Damage, 100 Precision, Lingering Curses or Withering Precision and Greater Marks.
Now compare pre-patch to now, if my maths if correct, with 80% Fear Duration we’ve gained just 1 second of fear with that skill.
You highlight a good strength, but it’s one that was needed to improve our escaping/defense.
I don’t think either terror or Dhuumfire are overpowered. What they did was give us a lot more access to fear. Doom can be up to 3 seconds with 100% fear duration. Spectral Wall can annihilate a bad player practically by itself.
I still stand by the thinking that – as a WvW player – as long as a P/D thief can live forever and lay a hurting on, or a Mesmer can recreate Mind Wrack bursts almost over and over, or a Guardian can heal to full after nearly being dead, or Rangers can cleanse themselves of conditions non-stop and heal like mad, and d/d eles are still a wildly powerful class, then we are not overpowered.
I think we’re right where Engis have been with their HGH build. I haven’t seen what warriors are capable of now, but I think we went from a second tier class to on the level with the rest of them. We still have the same weaknesses and lack of truly defensive cooldowns. Now we can just hope to kill someone before they really become an issue.
I think the most hardcore buff to fear was to DS3.
When near to an opponent it gets off a fear for 1.5 Sec if you go +100% Fearduration you get 3 Seconds of fear on a 20 (17) second cooldown which isn’t that hard to achieve and even without runes you get +80% from 30/20/0/0/20.
That makes your shortest cooldown-fear also the most dangerous.
Ye the fear is pretty good, but compare 30/20/0/0/20 with 30/30/10/0/0 you have to give up 100 Condition Damage, 100 Precision, Lingering Curses or Withering Precision and Greater Marks.
Now compare pre-patch to now, if my maths if correct, with 80% Fear Duration we’ve gained just 1 second of fear with that skill.
You highlight a good strength, but it’s one that was needed to improve our escaping/defense.
I don’t see the use of some seconds Weakness on a 20 second cooldown – you can get weakness from your weaponskills. And lingeringcurses i don’t find that useful – after all you got already 30% condition duration from spite, which is pretty much what most necs with lingering curse had prepatch.
Sadly, yes i don’t use staff right now but the extra immob’ of dagger and the daze of warhorn are nice too.
Cause they aren’t freeloot in 1v1 Situations now ? And yes ….. Corners are everywhere oO ……
Necros weren’t free loot in 1v1s before the patch.
Increased damage output only amplified this feature, but hardly did anything for attrition in outnumbered situations.
@Lopez:
If you think Terror does too much damage now, do you really believe that -10% will make a difference? Even in a pure condi spec that’s less than 200 damage per tick at best.
Terror is definitely not the problem.
Maybe Dhuumfire’s base duration should be cut instead? (if anything…)
I don’t see the use of some seconds Weakness on a 20 second cooldown – you can get weakness from your weaponskills. And lingeringcurses i don’t find that useful – after all you got already 30% condition duration from spite, which is pretty much what most necs with lingering curse had prepatch.
Sadly, yes i don’t use staff right now but the extra immob’ of dagger and the daze of warhorn are nice too.
It’s still a trade off, for many necros, which was my point.
Lets put it this way… I got on my pal’s necro to see the changes. I’ve plaid MAYBE 2 hours of necro in total TOPS. I was able to 1v3 with ease (WvW Vs. non-upscaled). Far easier than any of my 80’s. It’s as strong on land as my mesmer is underwater. Fear + massive cond burst + huge survivability is too strong right now.
I see some comparisons to the HGH eng… eng isn’t even close. It would be if my eng had fear + another hp bar though…
no, necros have just seen the light at the end of a 10 months tunnel.
I do think that some fine-tuning is needed – Spectral Skill has been kept disabled while entering in DS for a good reason – but overall they’ve just found their spot.
The tanky guy who alone is weak to CC’s, but longer the fight last (and he has quite some strong staying power), the more dangerous it becomes by stacking conditions and building up LF.
Working as intended.
On the other hand, spvpers QQ fire has already started, so expect Anet to kick back Necros in to shadows next patch to please them.
Seafarer’s Rest EU – PvE/WvW – 8 × 80 chars.
Most used: Guard/Mes/War/Nec/Ele.
Yes, i use 5 chars at time. Because REASONS.
I’ve plaid MAYBE 2 hours of necro in total TOPS. I was able to 1v3 with ease (WvW Vs. non-upscaled). Far easier than any of my 80’s.
Looool. No.
I don’t believe a single word of this, unless those 3 were afk.
2 hours experience total? 1v3 with ease?? If only…
I’m sorry, but if that’s a true story then your opponents were total noobs. If they were skilled then a 2000 hour necro pro couldn’t have survived.
I’m sorry I’m not a baddie like most in WvW?
I’m not saying you are bad. It’s just not possible to win alone against 3 people as a necro, and certainly not “with ease”.
Uhhh…. not sure if serious… 1v3 is possible with any class… saw my pal do it before the buff. He agrees that it’s a bit much as it is right now. Do keep in mind that most WvW-ers ARE bad though… ques the video of a lone thief/mes/eng/whatever taking on 5+ people lol.
I’ve plaid MAYBE 2 hours of necro in total TOPS. I was able to 1v3 with ease (WvW Vs. non-upscaled). Far easier than any of my 80’s.
Looool. No.
I don’t believe a single word of this, unless those 3 were afk.
2 hours experience total? 1v3 with ease?? If only…
I’m sorry, but if that’s a true story then your opponents were total noobs. If they were skilled then a 2000 hour necro pro couldn’t have survived.
I’m sorry I’m not a baddie like most in WvW?
I’m not saying you are bad. It’s just not possible to win alone against 3 people as a necro, and certainly not “with ease”.
Uhhh…. not sure if serious… 1v3 is possible with any class… saw my pal do it before the buff.
Are you sure you are talking about four equally skilled players, the only difference being the class?
Spectral Wall’d into a corner? Stability, teleport, or a single dodge and you are out of trouble. How does Spectral Wall compare to Line of Warding? How does Corrupt Boons compare to Contemplation of Purity? Our abilities are not overpowered.
I’ve plaid MAYBE 2 hours of necro in total TOPS. I was able to 1v3 with ease (WvW Vs. non-upscaled). Far easier than any of my 80’s.
Looool. No.
I don’t believe a single word of this, unless those 3 were afk.
2 hours experience total? 1v3 with ease?? If only…
I’m sorry, but if that’s a true story then your opponents were total noobs. If they were skilled then a 2000 hour necro pro couldn’t have survived.
I’m sorry I’m not a baddie like most in WvW?
I’m not saying you are bad. It’s just not possible to win alone against 3 people as a necro, and certainly not “with ease”.
Uhhh…. not sure if serious… 1v3 is possible with any class… saw my pal do it before the buff.
Are you sure you are talking about four equally skilled players, the only difference being the class?
Should have been obvious from my other posts… my opinion of the skill of a typical WvWer is low.
IMO No class in GW2 has ever been able to do a 1v3 at even skill and win in this game. That doesn’t mean that certain classes haven’t needed tweaking. Necro isn’t like… game breaking atm… but it is a bit strong.
I’ve plaid MAYBE 2 hours of necro in total TOPS. I was able to 1v3 with ease (WvW Vs. non-upscaled). Far easier than any of my 80’s.
Looool. No.
I don’t believe a single word of this, unless those 3 were afk.
2 hours experience total? 1v3 with ease?? If only…
I’m sorry, but if that’s a true story then your opponents were total noobs. If they were skilled then a 2000 hour necro pro couldn’t have survived.
I’m sorry I’m not a baddie like most in WvW?
I’m not saying you are bad. It’s just not possible to win alone against 3 people as a necro, and certainly not “with ease”.
Uhhh…. not sure if serious… 1v3 is possible with any class… saw my pal do it before the buff. He agrees that it’s a bit much as it is right now. Do keep in mind that most WvW-ers ARE bad though… ques the video of a lone thief/mes/eng/whatever taking on 5+ people lol.
I don’t know what build you are using, but if you were using Wells, and they stood in it for too long, then you shouldn’t even boast about it. I’ve met in WvW (Pre-Patch) many classes that thought they can go toe to toe with my Necromancer with direct attacks, they stood in my wells for 3 seconds, and that’s all it took to down them. Basically, 1v3 is impossible if the ones you fought are even just half-good, because you don’t have anywhere to go but to eat whatever damage is done towards you. You won’t last even if you stacked 1500+ toughness. One backstab from a thief should push you into deathshroud, which if focused, won’t last more than 2 seconds, and there you go, a dead necro. This is totally disregarding the fact that they might daze/stun you.
Necromancers have always had the ability to eat a few more punches to the face with Death Shroud, but you will still get burned down if you get focused, and you will still won’t be able to run away. The only difference now is that you pack a punch to retaliate, and this is nowhere close to OP.
80 Necromancer (Main) | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 80 Warrior
Engineer and Elementalist in progress…
Have not played my Necro in like forever because they where so awful…
But with the recent buffs thought I would give Necro another go…
Several hours later after a lot of PvP games and playing around with different builds my opinion is they are a lot better at killing other classes than before but always seem to die at a fairly rapid rate too. I think they still have a survivability problem…
I like the chance to escape death when things go bad, but Necro just seems to have few options, which are very medicore anyway…death shroud just makes you last a few secs longer but your still certain to die…
Condi feels pretty good now, I’ve not really changed much from my previous build except I use spectral wall in my 7 slot (I use this slot very fluidly, swapping between wall, corrupt boon or grasp at my needs dictate).
I play WvW exclusively though, plague into DS 5/4 is quite good for mass bag collecting
CONDITIONmancers can now burst just as fast as a glass cannon thief or warrior and with DS, great peels, CC and a buffed weakness, you have more survivability than these two, something is just wrong with this. Speaking of strictly sPvP.
It’s important that people pay attention to the correct things. If you go a burning build with terror, wells and spectral wall then sure you are bursty but your terrors kind of suck. The main offender should be the full terror build 0/30/10/0/20 with fully traited spectrals. The main offensive offender for most cases is spectral wall and with spectral walk and spectral armor you can have some really nice DS sustain on the defensive side. Again, regarding offense it’s pretty much all about spectral wall even without it being traited for every build, it’s the thing that makes everyone go nuts.
I’ve been running a terror build prepatch in solo queue and was quite successful, got to 535 on teh shmeaderboards at some point, then dropped back down to 700, then took a big break and dropped to 97% when I came back so terror heavy CC necro was quite good already, although the terror move screwed up my pre patch build since I only had 20 into curses for terror and banshees wail. Now we get burning on top of terror and in addition we get BOOSTED terror capabilities with torment, ahahaha. And my comic was only about getting burning in addition to the usual terror that we had. New traited terror possibilities with torment and all the other stuff we had beats burning anytime.
Our offense is huge now yes, but outside spectrals and near to death + foot in the grave we still suck at defense and eat CC like crazy.
