Guild Wars 2

so,i bought gw2 at release but never got to play it seriously
now i really want to give the game a shot
the thing is,when playing a mmo,im the guy that sticks to one main through everything,for good and for bad i will play that class
which is why choosing that main is a pain for me
i really enjoy playing the “dark mage” type and necro seemed like the first choice for me
but i keep hearing from people that i know and from people in game that necros are just really really bad now and i should avoid them
i was told that necros are barely viable in spvp,not viable for high-end dungeons/fractals and are ok for generic solo pve(which doesnt matter cause every class has a good build for this)
is really that bad?

What you heard is pretty much true, but we’re not really as bad as people say except in high-end PvE. This is, however, more of an issue with encounter and enemy design than the necro itself. This is apparent when you look at the Living Story enemies (Aetherblades, Toxic Alliance, and Mordrem) in comparison to everything else. Necros are much more valuable fighting those three due to design differences.

The problem with necros in PvP is that they don’t bring much to the table that you can’t get on other professions. Because they lack avoidance abilities, they need to justify two spots on their team: their own and their babysitter’s. Needless to say, they aren’t quite capable of doing that.

guess i will be skipping the necro ;(

I am the same as you. I stick to one main and that’s it. I chose Nerco and I have not been disappointed. I play Minions and I do pretty good in PVP and PVE. I have tried other builds but nothing else seems to work with the Necro. my 2 cents

My friend do not give up on us that easy.

We may not be the super optimal class that is the top of everything but we all play to have fun right? If you enjoy playing the Dark Mage ideal/theme then play it there is no point in playing a class that is “Good Meta” that you find boring especially as you said yourself if you are the type of person who picks a main and stick to it.

Besides that we have a patch coming up so you never know what might happen to Necro iirc we will find out in 2 weeks time.

If it helps though put you at ease I’ve done PvP, Large and small scale group engagements in WvW, Roaming and PvE on my Necromancer and it has preformed admirably throughout.

Not everyone plays the game to be useless and be kicked from every form of group content, you know.

if u like wvw, necro is in the gwen meta

(guardian, warrior, ele, necro)

gwen is the meta of mostly organized wvw grps , and those organized zergs r mostly made of these 4 proffessions, ofc there r 1-2 mesmers, and 1-3 thiefs nearly all the time

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Not everyone plays the game to be useless and be kicked from every form of group content, you know.

that

Amaranthe.3578:

so,i bought gw2 at release but never got to play it seriously
now i really want to give the game a shot
the thing is,when playing a mmo,im the guy that sticks to one main through everything,for good and for bad i will play that class
which is why choosing that main is a pain for me
i really enjoy playing the “dark mage” type and necro seemed like the first choice for me
but i keep hearing from people that i know and from people in game that necros are just really really bad now and i should avoid them
i was told that necros are barely viable in spvp,not viable for high-end dungeons/fractals and are ok for generic solo pve(which doesnt matter cause every class has a good build for this)
is really that bad?

No it isn’t true what you heard about them in SPvP. The fact is, people just want to win everything and be everything and when they can’t, they just blame it on the developers.

Some things need fixing with the Necro, yes but it’s not so bad that you can’t play the class, get good at it and get a guild that will take you on dungeon runs and Fractals.

Make a build that stacks torment with Runes, Sigils and DS, make a DPS build that allows you to hit 5k shots with the auto-attack in DS, make a build that focuses on power but you can go into DS to get 50% crit chance.

Seriously, the things that work with the necro REALLY work. The things that don’t (life steal), you just stay away from.

They are powerful ( hear: average) in all pvp game modes. Their dps is also totally respectable, it’s just a selfish class and there’s no point taking a necro over something else. THat’s a bit less true in fractals ( non speedruns/pugs), because the weakness spam is nice to have. You can main something else in pve and play necro when you want, but i’d advice having a back-up. In case you wonder when to take one, they are great at single target dps, a bit of vuln, and mainly boonstrip/ condition manipulations.

Op you are correct in what you have heard. In PvP they are bad because they can be completely focused and put out of a match. In PvE they are bad because they offer nothing unique, are selfish and have low end dps. In WvW they are ok in zerg vs zerg because you have swarms of other players helping you.

If you value any form of efficiency and learning the game for what it is. Then you should probably stay away from the Necro in its current state. To avoid unnecessary disappointment and frustration. The class is fun. But once you start thinking about how other classes do everything better it kind of ruins it for you.

Who writes this stuff? Necros are fantastic in sPvP.

Fantastic soloing Pve as well. Sure, they dont get much dungeon love, but mine have never been kicked.

Meh.

Soloing open world is easy on any class. Most classes do better at soloing dungeons than necro. Necros are good in hotjoin sPvP (its not hard to beat idiots). They are pretty bad in the higher tiers. Some players make them work. But they still suffer heavily from being focused.

Necro is not that horrible. It won’t prevent you to complete any content. You may have to work harder in a few situation. And the disadvantage in pve mostly appear when you understand the game more and try to push for more efficiency.

In wvw, necro is, I would say, mid-tier in roaming and top tier in zerg.

Pvp I’ll let others to comment.

I play a necro in fractals….

I also see quite a few high level fractal groups with necro. Power necros, can hit hard. And for most people they’re not hated on that much.
the “elite” players don’t like necros….but for pve dungeons it’s not that big a deal.

Necro is a very fun class to play. (and that should be the main reason to play any game/class.)
If you enjoy it, play it. You will still get to do all the dungeons, and fractals, without too much bother. Yeah you won’t get accepted for zerk parties, but that doesn’t mean the dungeon run will take much longer.

i understand that playing whats fun is important but i would really hate to play the constant underdog that is constantly being over-looked by the devs and thus doomed to be second-best
i guess gw2 isnt a game for me

I wouldn’t call the Necro a constant underdog that is constantly being over-looked by devs.

Are Necros the first choice in the finals of tournaments? No, but are 95% of the people that play at that skill level? No

I’ve done Fractals to level 38 so far and yet to have an issue with a Necro nor any other not meta class. Sure some classes are better but you need to be working in sync, pre-stacking buffs, etc that not everyone does nor will you expect in a pug group so in that venue I see them as just fine for dungeons. If you do get to the level of pre-buffing and all that, you might finish a dungeon 1 minute slower then the rest. That 1 minute is probably wasted by the min-max groups just waiting for the right members.

At least wait and see what the Sept. 9th patch has to offer to the class. You stated you play one guy through the good and the bad.

You are misunderstanding. The op does not want to waste his time on a class that he will find disappointing later on down the road. For many people that value any form of efficiency or improving themselves that will be the case.

Its a valid concern. My personal recommendation would be to avoid the necro as a main unless you really dont care at all about anything other than how your character feels (basically roleplaying).

If you want a caster I would recommend ele. Its not a dark caster but its strong in all gametypes and is pretty satisfying to play. You can always make your ele look dark cosmetic wise.

Bottom line is: roll a necro anyway and see if its playstyle fits with your own. A lot of players call it a selfish class, I call it a self-sufficient class.

Maybe it’s just my playstyle, but I’ve had unparalleled survivability with my necro opposed to any other class. In dungeons, I utilize this feature to rez teammates when killing the creature for a rally is too long in the tooth. When not, I’ll tackle the enemy one-on-one to secure a rally for my fallen comrades.

Are there other professions that bring more team utility? Certainly. However, I make up for my lack of team-wide buffs by being a solid player. I minimize the variables brought forth by bad players. The damage I bring to the table, the rallies, and the other minor things (trap disabling, etc) are my party utilities. The other 4 players need only concern themselves with the dungeon at hand.

I see a necromancer as a ‘free agent’ in dungeons. We don’t give anything, nor should we need anything.

In spvp, its always do-or-die. It makes victory that much sweeter while blunting the edge of defeat: when you win, you get blasted as OP or hear “blahblahblah2ndhealthbarwahwahwah”, and when you are defeated, you opponent has no victory to bask in: you have no choice but to take any CC on the chin, to soak up any damage directed your way.

I cannot vouch for WvW, as that is not my scene. I’m sure others could (and already have) elaborate on this in my stead.

A lot of people here seem to be confusing “bad in PvE” with “hard to play in PvE” because I always see “necros are bad in PvE” being responded to with “well i play a necro in pve and i rarely die even in dungeons”.

On topic for OP, I have no idea what it is you like about the necro but you should try the mesmer too. They’re basically what you would expect a stereotypical necromancer-type class to be (lots of CC, minions, debuffs, etc.) and the difference is that they’re actually good in most group content. I can’t really speak for PvP so much but whenever I check the Mesmer boards the worst complaint I see is “omg anet fixed a really minor bug with one skill” which in turn leads me to believe there really isn’t actually much to complain about overall.

are you kidding me? Necros are:

• arguably the strongest class 1v1, with the only person close to them being a PU mesmer.
• highly valued in WvW for the current garbage GWEN meta
• very strong solo pve’r
• not wanted by group pve’rs, but neither is anyone thats not a Warrior, Guardian or Ele. And as someone who mains a ranger and plays nearly every class, “unwanted” classes still have zero problems getting groups thanks to the new LFG system. If a group only wants “optimum” classes you can reassure yourself the group leader is garbage and just looking to have his 100blades baddy warrior carried through the instance.

Necros are not ‘bad’ in PvP, just that other profession/builds are more desirable, so it is rare to see a Nero do well in high end PvP. If all you do is hotjoin or soloQ PvP, Necromancers are a fine choice.

Necros is great for WvW though, they are part of the G.W.E.N. meta (Guardian Warrior Elementalist Necromancer).

As for PvE, well, yeah they kinda suck

Raven.9603:

• not wanted by group pve’rs, but neither is anyone thats not a Warrior, Guardian or Ele. And as someone who mains a ranger and plays nearly every class, “unwanted” classes still have zero problems getting groups thanks to the new LFG system. If a group only wants “optimum” classes you can reassure yourself the group leader is garbage and just looking to have his 100blades baddy warrior carried through the instance.

This. Dont ever listen to someone when they tell you X class is bad. The ones who do are either A. Elitists who only want speed runs and corner stacking in dungeons with min-maxed gear (which is fine, everyone has a different definition for what they consider fun) or B. Just didn’t like the play style of the class they claim to be bad.
PvE and dungeons in this game are fairly simple, really simple actually, which means that all the classes are viable. Are necros gonna have the fastest clear time or highest damage ever? No, but neither are engi’s, thieves, or rangers, and that’s because the game has some horrible balance.
My advice is the same as Sors Immani and just try the class. I know you say you like to stick with one main but leveling goes by really fast in this game, and can be quite fun, so if you’re around level 20-30 and just not feeling necro it wont be a big loss to re-roll.
But if you’re one of the people who are into min-maxing everything and want to play a light armor class then roll a mesmer to be a time warp robot or an ele to be a ice bow and fiery greatsword dispenser.

Or maybe we understand all the classes very well? Ive solo’d dungeons etc on multiple classes. I play all classes pretty equally and thats often in duo/trios for dungeons & fractals. Necro can do fine solo. But its slow and incredibly frustrating in many places where other classes can simply use blocks or reflects. Best classes for soloing are ele, warrior, engi, thief and guardian. Mesmer, necro and ranger can also solo pretty well. But they have major issues in either options or dps.

And you guys are still misunderstanding. The op made it pretty clear that he doesnt want to play a class that has a lot of problems. I assume thats even if its fun to play. My impression of the op is that he is someone who has fun from being as useful as possible to the group (correct me if im wrong). Class aesthetic is just a bonus. This is how I and many players who follow the meta feel.

So yes it is his choice, he should give the class a go. But to say “ignore those elitists” is just moronic. Anyone who values being efficient will only find disappointment by maining a necro. Maybe you guys should accept that some people dont always have the same values as you when playing.

Don’t make a necro. Its only viable in zergfights, and in organized ones.

PvE: Awful, maybe the hunter is worst.

WvW Roaming: Worst roamer. Roaming is about mobility, necro is the worst in that. You can’t pick fights, if a big group see you, you are dead. And if you are winning they just run away and you cant chase them.

WvW as a pug: You are going to have a bad time in unorganized backline or if you need to cross the entire map to catch the zerg.

Dueling: Is pretty good but easy to hardcounter.

sPvP: is not in a good place right now.

If you need to choose ONE CLASS for all the game content, the most versatile class right now, you can do EVERYTHING with him, is a warrior, make a warrior. You can do everything good with him. Is not the BEST in each mode, but is good and great in all modes.

urieldhynne.2743:

Don’t make a necro. Its only viable in zergfights, and in organized ones.

PvE: Awful, maybe the hunter is worst.

WvW Roaming: Worst roamer. Roaming is about mobility, necro is the worst in that. You can’t pick fights, if a big group see you, you are dead. And if you are winning they just run away and you cant chase them.

WvW as a pug: You are going to have a bad time in unorganized backline or if you need to cross the entire map to catch the zerg.

Dueling: Is pretty good but easy to hardcounter.

sPvP: is not in a good place right now.

As I said, for organized Zerg fights or GvG is a MUST HAVE. Necro is one of the core class of it.

If you need to choose ONE CLASS for all the game content, the most versatile class right now, you can do EVERYTHING with him, is a warrior, make a warrior. You can do everything good with him. Is not the BEST in each mode, but is good and great in all modes.

By sticking to one single class, it is almost inevitable at some point that you will find the class bad (and also good).

I main a necro, mostly. I spend most of my money on it. I do most new contents with it.
But I also leveled a few other characters. First is to change things up, keep it fresh and fun. Second is to learn their strength and weakness. I doubt one can succeed in pvp if never touched other classes.

You will never know what is lacking in necro if you don’t try other classes. And vice versa. You wouldn’t know how useful block is compare to a second health bar. Some may argue mesmer is a “better” class but in reality in dungeon, the dps always feels lacking and in wvw, you may only need like 2 mesmer in a 30ppl zerg. The Anet’s real son, warrior, success in all game mode, just feels so boring and plain after a while. I think if I keep maining only one class, I would have probably quit the game.

urieldhynne.2743:

Don’t make a necro. Its only viable in zergfights, and in organized ones.

PvE: Awful, maybe the hunter is worst.

WvW Roaming: Worst roamer. Roaming is about mobility, necro is the worst in that. You can’t pick fights, if a big group see you, you are dead. And if you are winning they just run away and you cant chase them.

WvW as a pug: You are going to have a bad time in unorganized backline or if you need to cross the entire map to catch the zerg.

Dueling: Is pretty good but easy to hardcounter.

sPvP: is not in a good place right now.

If you need to choose ONE CLASS for all the game content, the most versatile class right now, you can do EVERYTHING with him, is a warrior, make a warrior. You can do everything good with him. Is not the BEST in each mode, but is good and great in all modes.

Meh. It’s viable in many modes. Not optimal, but that’s not what the OP asked. And this game doesn’t have hunters

PvE: open world = fine. dungeons = dps suffers badly due to condition mechanics, more than one condition spec’d party member is definitely not viable.

WvW Roaming: worst runner. The fighting part is viable and we do have chill/cc/etc to help with runners. Personally I’ve never understood why so many roamers work so hard to avoid actually fighting. I’m the kill-you-or-die-trying type.

WvW as a pug: I’ve rarely had trouble catching the random blue dorito. Switch in spectral green-butt-streamer-of-swiftness or signet of runs-faster till you catch the zerg. And I usually survive longer than most PuG zergers as a backline necro.

Dueling: no argument.

sPvP: no clue; not my thing atm.

To me, Necromancer is not really a dark mage job. It is more of a condi-support/tank profession; kind of an opposite to Guardian, which is a healing/boon support job.

The Elementalist and Engineer are closest to a dark mage. They focus on high AoE damage with Ele using more boons and conditions and Engi using more direct damage.

Mix a Warrior and an Engineer together and reduce direct damage and you get Necro.

will put it as simple as i can " YES"

GreyWraith.8394:

WvW Roaming: worst runner. The fighting part is viable and we do have chill/cc/etc to help with runners. Personally I’ve never understood why so many roamers work so hard to avoid actually fighting. I’m the kill-you-or-die-trying type.

WvW as a pug: I’ve rarely had trouble catching the random blue dorito. Switch in spectral green-butt-streamer-of-swiftness or signet of runs-faster till you catch the zerg. And I usually survive longer than most PuG zergers as a backline necro.

Mobility is the main problem with this 2 points. As a pug catching the commander if you dont pay attention and a roamer group see you and decide to chase you, you are going to die. You CAN’T run away, maybe if you have something to get inside near, or allies to help you, but, if you are alone, far from everything, and like 3 enemies start to chasing you, you are dead.

The same happen with roaming, you CANT choose the fights. Like you, i hate ppl running away when they are losing. I hate that in this game, where some classes had a huge advantage about mobility “OUT OF COMBAT” but is the core of roaming here. Mobility. The ability to disengage fast and run away from zergs or outnumbered fights.

I agree with you, fighting the necro is great, but outside the fight the problems begins. And the frustration because you only can WP back to survive.

You must be kidding me right?
I haven’t played a lot with my necro and I mainly use her for wvw. I even only have unlocked traits for Terrormancer build but man I can 1v1 anyone and I never feared any other class in wvw. Even up against classes running meta (condi warriors, PU mesmers, Guardians using staff and GS who never die). The only class I had difficult beating was condi thieves but it can be due to I’m a n00b as I have played less than 100 hours.
Roll a necro. You won’t regret it.

GreyWraith.8394:

urieldhynne.2743:

Don’t make a necro. Its only viable in zergfights, and in organized ones.

PvE: Awful, maybe the hunter is worst.

WvW Roaming: Worst roamer. Roaming is about mobility, necro is the worst in that. You can’t pick fights, if a big group see you, you are dead. And if you are winning they just run away and you cant chase them.

WvW as a pug: You are going to have a bad time in unorganized backline or if you need to cross the entire map to catch the zerg.

Dueling: Is pretty good but easy to hardcounter.

sPvP: is not in a good place right now.

If you need to choose ONE CLASS for all the game content, the most versatile class right now, you can do EVERYTHING with him, is a warrior, make a warrior. You can do everything good with him. Is not the BEST in each mode, but is good and great in all modes.

Meh. It’s viable in many modes. Not optimal, but that’s not what the OP asked. And this game doesn’t have hunters

PvE: open world = fine. dungeons = dps suffers badly due to condition mechanics, more than one condition spec’d party member is definitely not viable.

WvW Roaming: worst runner. The fighting part is viable and we do have chill/cc/etc to help with runners. Personally I’ve never understood why so many roamers work so hard to avoid actually fighting. I’m the kill-you-or-die-trying type.

WvW as a pug: I’ve rarely had trouble catching the random blue dorito. Switch in spectral green-butt-streamer-of-swiftness or signet of runs-faster till you catch the zerg. And I usually survive longer than most PuG zergers as a backline necro.

Dueling: no argument.

sPvP: no clue; not my thing atm.

Totally agree!
Mobility is the only thing I could think of that sucks for necro and I’m also the kill-you-or-die-trying type (my mesmer and warriors are can’t-win-run/stealth-away type lol).

Whiniest thread ever.

If you want to spend your life worrying, as you are, about what people think of the class you play, I fear for your future.

.

Necros can do anything in the game, like anyone else.

Sounds like you need a FotM class to enjoy the game. If so, then no, don’t play.

^I’m inclined to agree.

Necros seem rather strong in pvp to me. They can make for very good bunkers, their condition spam is pretty crazy, and I definitely wouldn’t say power necros are weak either (mainly because lich form = auto-win, assuming it’s off of cooldown).

Not sure about the other modes, not that I’ve ever seen a necro get kicked from PvE for being a necro.

Exxcalibur.6203:

Necros can do anything in the game, like anyone else.

Not true. They cant reflect.

spoj.9672:

Exxcalibur.6203:

Necros can do anything in the game, like anyone else.

Not true. They cant reflect.

But, necros can use runes of earth get under 20% life and than with the procced magnet aura reflect projectiles…

So theoretical they can reflect…

Sorry i couldnt resist…

Raven.9603:

are you kidding me? Necros are:

• arguably the strongest class 1v1, with the only person close to them being a PU mesmer.
• highly valued in WvW for the current garbage GWEN meta
• very strong solo pve’r
• not wanted by group pve’rs, but neither is anyone thats not a Warrior, Guardian or Ele. And as someone who mains a ranger and plays nearly every class, “unwanted” classes still have zero problems getting groups thanks to the new LFG system. If a group only wants “optimum” classes you can reassure yourself the group leader is garbage and just looking to have his 100blades baddy warrior carried through the instance.

i always thought that s/f eles and thiefs r real good duellers, and kind of best

i play nearly all proffessions, and i do think that necros r easy to beat as s/f ele or tiff

if u r in eu, check the 1v1 angz pvp server

In SPVP you have a couple of choices:

MM which is the lowest skill floor option. It doesn’t have a high skill ceiling either so there is only so effective you can be with MM. This is a bunker class which will sit on (home usually) until your allies come to help you. The reason it is preferable for home bunker instead of say mid is because it has no buffs to help allies and the minions are susceptible to being aoe’d in seconds in a big zerg fight. At home you will typically get less assaulters before help arrives. You can see by this is that is one of the weaker bunkers, not the weakest though.

Recently I have seen pure bunker spec minionless necros with 0 damage and shroud for days which was an interesting bunker to beat on for a consistent 3 minutes with three people. I could not stand to play such a thing personally. A decap bunker or any guardian would always counter this one easily though.

Condition necro is an anti tank weapon in SPVP, with your tanks being guardians and ele who rely on boons with fear spam and condis you are pretty good at locking someone down if you get the drop on them. With low mobility it is difficult to get the drop on someone as necro but you always have your insta fear to lead with from shroud. The main problem with being an anti tank weapon is tanks are universally good against a lot of targets and anti tank weapons have a lot of weaknesses, warriors in particular can easily ruin your day or any class with access to a lot of condi defense such as ranger.

Power necro is a mid point assault class with wells and lich form able to secure mid initially many times.

Just know that in any team fight as necro you are high on the hit list as you are always able to be targeted without evades, stealth or stability. It is possible to build to minimize these as well as your skill in juking. The only necros that can ever kill me as I main power ranger (which are very, very few) are the ones HIGHLY skilled in juking even then I can kill them usually if I have a good opener. I have spent a lot of time on necro as well I’m just not into it these days.

I don’t play the rest of the game modes but that is what you are in for as SPVP necro.

Necro is more of a tank than War. It is roughly equivalent to Guardian. Warrior has significant combat mobility and spike damage. Necro is a straight up face tanker.

DS is the class mechanic that provides temporary invulnerability. In a way, you can think of Necro as a dark paladin with sub-par attacks and conditions instead of healing but designed as an aggro magnet.

Anchoku.8142:

Necro is more of a tank than War. It is roughly equivalent to Guardian. Warrior has significant combat mobility and spike damage. Necro is a straight up face tanker.

DS is the class mechanic that provides temporary invulnerability. In a way, you can think of Necro as a dark paladin with sub-par attacks and conditions instead of healing but designed as an aggro magnet.

Did you actually just say necros are tankier than a class that can afk and not die? Necros are the least tanky class in the game. Every other class can be attacked by theoretically infinite damage and not die through invulnerability skills. Deathshroud isn’t like being invulnerable, you still recieve damage and if you get too much you get hurt. That isn’t what invulnerability is and it shouldn’t be thought of that way. Also, necros shouldn’t be an aggro magnet either. They are a largely ranged caster class, what part of that says aggro?

Wyrden.4713:

Raven.9603:

are you kidding me? Necros are:

• arguably the strongest class 1v1, with the only person close to them being a PU mesmer.
• highly valued in WvW for the current garbage GWEN meta
• very strong solo pve’r
• not wanted by group pve’rs, but neither is anyone thats not a Warrior, Guardian or Ele. And as someone who mains a ranger and plays nearly every class, “unwanted” classes still have zero problems getting groups thanks to the new LFG system. If a group only wants “optimum” classes you can reassure yourself the group leader is garbage and just looking to have his 100blades baddy warrior carried through the instance.

i always thought that s/f eles and thiefs r real good duellers, and kind of best

i play nearly all proffessions, and i do think that necros r easy to beat as s/f ele or tiff

if u r in eu, check the 1v1 angz pvp server

I agree with this for pvp in general. I play both power necro and S/F ele in pvp, and S/F ele just contributes so much more to winning the match. Mainly because they can at least mitigate damage, and can juke with lightning flash… and their burst is complex and fluid. With power necro, you just spam 1..

That being said I only really play necro in WvW these days where I totally love it. For pvp it’s S/F ele or condi tank ranger that satisfy me for damage or sustain roles respectively. I would go back to using necros in pvp if the changes in the next patch make them able to fulfill a viable sustain role, instead of being a subpar roamer. That means having stability or vigor at the very least in my mind. Right now I can just do that in ranger because they sit in an almost perpetual state of protection and evasion. And lich bombs are fun.. Against people that can’t dodge.. right now I can just use ele to burst people down even faster than I can with a lich necro, and without being a giant green target that screams “Moa me!!!11!111”.