Guild Wars 2

Pirate Steveo.2190:

I really am liking this build and i appreciate you sharing it with the community. One question i have is why the sigil of blood? If it has a cd of two secs is the health that procs from it really worth it?

Not on it’s own, in combination with the health siphon from the blood magic tree it helps though. This seems to be a general rule of thumb in GW2: One life steal proc/trait/ability alone will be nigh useless, you have to use them in combination.

Anchoku.8142:

Just a friendly reminder for those going after Melandru runes.

Use a karma booster before chugging those jugs, if you need more than you have on your character.

The outnumbered buff in WvW will give you another 50% ( ? large one anyway) boost.

I think I’ll give this build a try, although it seems a bit squishy to me for any kind of a large zerg situation. I like to have more vitality than that usually. I am thinking that it wouldn’t be a bad idea to drop that crit rate to about 5-10% and try to buff up vitality.
Is this your personal build, or is it something that your guild/server runs?

Why not put azurite/soldiers on the axe and warhorn since they are single target and not of much use in a zerg in terms of dps. You can swap over to them when you need more health, for example, when you are fleeing.

Ascii.9726:

@ArchonWing.9480
Absolutely spot on.

I also have no issues what so ever with 5 points in Spite for the Health on Kill proc, infact i recently suggested such a build to a player for a mass snowball effect using this and sigils.

That was me!

Anyone else want to share their opinion of on-kill effects like Restoration in organized ZergvZerg encounters? I’m tempted to continue down the path I’ve already began using the sigil and 5 in the Spite tree but Ascii’s criticisms of on-kill sigils does make a lot of sense.

@Ascii:
You bashed my previous proposal of not going deep into the Death Magic traitline. I’ve also quoted the post when you did. Then when other people said it is not worth to go into the Death Magic traitline, here’s your answer.

Ascii.9726:

@LoRdZeRo.5364
Yes, i have been playtesting 5/25/10/30/0 and will admit it is very strong for sustain. It breaks my heart moving away from unblockable marks though as I’ve secured some amazing kills with it and nothing is more satisfying as fearing the head of an enemy melee train thats passed through and are on there block/ healing phase.

Your correct on them variations and i would agree these would be suitable variations if you did want to drop greater marks;
5/25/10/30/0
0/30/10/30/0
0/25/10/20/15

I don’t think i would ever consider going more then 5 points into spite and the 5 point itself has me split. The snowball effect it brings is nice but typically when people start getting stomped and this starts procing the fight usually begins to tip in your favor (unless some 30 spite point necro dies and rallies all the downed enemies :P)

Those 2 minor Death Magic traits are terrible and i would never call anything more then 10 points in DM mandatory.

OMG! Those builds have no Soul Reaping and no Death Magic but can be debated!
Then why did you said this?

Which has no Spite, and can somewhat be debated because of the DS pool. I disagree with the lack of Blood Magic and alot of my other posts explain why.

My proposal was 20/10/10/30/0. You dismissed that proposal mindlessly saying I had no experience… lol.

Also, Aphix said:

The build works great, at least with spectral armor, a fat DS life pool and traited armor. I dont die and I do insane damage. Ive been playing long enough to know that the most important thing in wvw/gvg is NOT DIEING. I would never run a build where I might be the reason 10+ people just rallied and completely turned the fight around. Its viable but I prefer my other build.

But I guess there his no reason to bash him because he said that a 30-spite build is quite tough to kill. He explitily said he played 2000+ hours and have over 360 WvWvW ranks, so he must be listened.

I understood that you are not interested in my opinion because I didn’t paired them with my credentials, but please, stop posting those ridiculous justifications that makes me feel forced to answer to debunk them and pretending that there is another logical reason behind your dismissal. Then we are fine, I won’t have any reason to post here in your topic anymore.

thanks Ascii for sharing this build with the community.
Q: would you use this build for small wvw fights? (5-10 vs 5-10) If not, could you please share your build for small wvw fights?

@Pirate Steveo.2190
Sigils of Blood is something I’ve actually been trying over the past few weeks (instead of Sigils of Battle) and am so far loving it. With this build they heal for 454 and also damage for 452. Usually I wouldn’t use 30% proc sigils but given amount of people you tag with one AoE there almost bound to proc on a well, plague or mark nuke.

Along with Vampiric, Vampirc Ritual and any AoE heals flying around I usually don’t have to even utility heal when skirmishing back and fourth (allowing me to save it for when I get focused or intend to plague).

@blurps.2340
Last time I tested karma jugs with outmanned buff they didn’t affect them (this was several months ago).

@timidobserver.7925
The build is surprisingly deceptive with how tanky it is and that comes down mainly to the Melandru + Lemongrass combo nulling out the need for heavy vitality. This build is something I’ve tweaked myself but was designed from a typical ‘framework’ that all our Necromancers use in WvW. This build tanks amazingly and I can usually always get off a full duration of plague in an enemy backline.

I would never consider swapping out the sigils mainly because they sync for both offence and defences. The critical chance boost helps rack in more HP from the Sigil of Blood and Vampiric Precision which alone would be +539HP every 2 seconds which compared to an Azurite’s static +200HP is pretty superior.

@sorrow.2364
sorrow, sorrow, sorrow. What am I going to do with you…
I never once ignored your opinions because of your lack of Death Magic points or credentials which I didn’t actually ask for until you started posting ridiculous statements.

I’m ignoring them because you chose to ignore my facts of what are fundamental requirements for Necromancers in WvW (Chilling Darkness, Plague of Darkness and to some degree Staff Mastery) which any Necromancer with WvW experience will tell you are core roles for us.

I’m really not sure were your getting this “No Death Magic” from, I’ve maintained throughout this entire thread 10 points is a minimum and IMO a requirement and every build I’ve suggested (except one which I would never use) has 10 points.

I “bashed” your opinions of not going into Death Magic over Spite by showing you the comparisons and saying the Toughness and Boon Duration are more important than the Power and Condition Duration. Soul Reaping is an entirely different ballgame because it doesn’t trade full defence for full offence and as with every post I’ve made about people asking about Soul Reaping I’ve said if you plan on going into Soul Reaping you have to abuse Deathshroud with Locust Swarm and Retaliation.

As for Aphixs comments, I’ve tried dumbing it down to your level to understand but let me try again:

• 30/10/0/0/30 is his hotjoin sPvP build, its for fighting clueless randoms in large numbers in WvW, NOT for organized guild fights because in his own words “I’ve been playing long enough to know that the most important thing in wvw/gvg is NOT DIEING.” and this trades his offensive for more defensive.

• 0/20/20/0/30 is his tPvP build, for fighting large T1 guilds which this thread and build is all about. It has having Death Magic, Chilling Darkness, Focused Rituals and a somewhat debatable 30 Soul Reaping points which provides him around 6.6k health, a far superior stat to +30% condition damage.

Now that that’s put in a language that you can maybe understand ill just finish by again saying this, your opinion did not become ‘worthless’ to me because I think you have no “credentials” it became worthless when you started out by saying stuff like Chilling Darkness, Plague of Darkness were “not worth picking at all” and high damage over defence was superior.

Your opinions have been dearly noted and disregarded.

@eLF.4893
Small scale WvW or havocking is a completely different ballgame to organized GvGing. This build isn’t bad at it, but there are much better builds (such as Terror and full out offensive builds) that do the job better. Oozo would be a good guy to ask or just starting up a new thread, as its been along time since I last havoc’d properly.

sorrow.2364:

Ascii.9726:

I play this build at least 6 hours everyday in T1 WvW both commanding and following, im in the highest ranked NA GvG guild fighting some of the best guilds in the game.

Maybe you shouldn’t be questioning my experiences and more informing us of yours which you still haven’t done.

And here we are again with the “I’m better than you” and “I speak only the truth” arguments.
I’m wasting my time here, I should have realized it before.

some people simply doesnt want critics (even if they say so). They only want to hear ‘this is the best, so much fun, thank you for enlightenment’, thats it. Sad but true.

Did they fix sigil of blood already? last time it was at 5s ICD

@Ascii: where did I said that Plague of Darkness is “not worth picking at all”?
Please, tell me where I did.

I’ll again show you the trait distribution I’ve proposed to you, because it looks like you ignored it another time: 20/10/10/30/0.
Where do you see I’ve traded “all defences with all offence”? I’ve actually proposed you to go deeper into the Blood Magic traitline to get Vampiric Rituals.
Those 10 points into Death Magic that you define “mandatory” are still there.

All I said is that spending 10 traitpoints to get a trait which makes a single skill slightly better which you have access to only for 20 seconds every 3 minutes (so about 10% of the time) sounds like a waste to me, especially when you can invest those traitpoints to get increased sustainability and power in the remaining 90% of the time.

All the “I’ll dumb it down for you” argument just makes you look like even more arrogant as you’ve already proven to be.

@blutstein.2468
I’m all for critics and opinions, infact i never dismissed sorrow without explanations, i just prefer people who criticize a GvG WvW build to actually play GvG WvW in the first place, it would be like me criticizing tPvP builds when i hardly if ever tPvP.

@sorrow.2364
20/10/10/30/0 has no Chilling Darkness, do you understand that, no Chilling Darkness, let me say it again for you, no Chilling Darkness.

“pending 10 trait-points to get a trait which makes a single skill slightly better which you have access to only for 20 seconds every 3 minutes " clearly shows you have no clue about Plaguing in GvG and how strong skill disruption is. There is not one person on this thread who has agreed with you about not taking chilling darkness so stop pushing for it. Your wrong.

If you had any braincells at all, you would be pushing for 20/20/10/20/0 which i could somewhat agree covers all the fundamentals of a GvG Necromancer but would trade too much offense for defense for me to personally use.

• 5 Point trait is only helpful with a snowball effect build.
• 15 Point trait is useless.
• Condition duration is useless.
• For the 15 additional points in Spite for +150 power, you could get +150 Toughness and +100 Power, giving up 10% mark damage for unblockable marks.

If you have nothing more constrictive to add to this thread, leave it. Your opinions have been dearly noted and disregarded.

Ascii.9726:

“pending 10 trait-points to get a trait which makes a single skill slightly better which you have access to only for 20 seconds every 3 minutes " clearly shows you have no clue about Plaguing in GvG and how strong skill disruption is. There is not one person on this thread who has agreed with you about not taking chilling darkness so stop pushing for it. Your wrong.

Yep, great build Ascii! Keep going and thanks for making it public! You are a great player!
Great reasoning and astonishing experience!

@Izaya.2906
I’m not sure, I’ve only been using these sigils for about 2 weeks and usually i just see a blur of green numbers when fighting but ill get on testing it in WvW ASAP.

Even if its 5 seconds its still a very good sustain sigil (15% – 21% * 5 per AoE) that doesn’t require you to swap weapons every 10 seconds to get the benefit (and knowing it should hopefully be bug fixed).

Ascii.9726:

@blutstein.2468
I’m all for critics and opinions, infact i never dismissed sorrow without explanations, i just prefer people who criticize a GvG WvW build to actually play GvG WvW in the first place, it would be like me criticizing tPvP builds when i hardly if ever tPvP.

ah, so how do you come to the conclusion, that he never WvWs? And what exactly makes you a better player if you play more in WvW? thats simply not an argument, its an somehow arrogant statement imho.

and sry for that: but sorrow has right, choosing a trait to power up a 3 min cd skill is questionable. if you find it worthy for your playstyle, go with it, but its questionable.

But now i’m out of this thread. I get that feeling that I waste my time too, especially if i take a look at your sig.

@blutstein.2468
Chilling Darkness wins fights and its that simple. Chilling a static field, heal, enemy plague, null field even battle standard which would put this on a 399 second cooldown (which is gamechanging when skirmishing for a guild lord) it is huge for skill disruption. im speaking from months of GvG experience, sorrow is not.

I would gladly apologize about inquiring about his WvW experiences if he would actually share them and I’ve asked multiple times (although i stand by my opinions on Death Magic over Spite which is personal, not a requirement). Anything will do Server and Guild/ links to his guild’s videos, WvW rank, Tiers, if he has even tested the builds hes theorycrafted in GvG WvW. Judging from his post history hes a sPvP/ tPvP guy though (nothing wrong with that) but WvW =/= PvP.

My sig is also a pun at a completely different game and nothing more so you shouldn’t read too much into it. You’ve actually only posted once and it was completely off topic so yes, your wasting your own time.

Ascii.9726:

@blutstein.2468
Chilling Darkness wins fights and its that simple. Chilling a static field, heal, enemy plague, null field even battle standard which would put this on a 399 second cooldown (which is gamechanging when skirmishing for a guild lord) it is huge for skill disruption. im speaking from months of GvG experience, sorrow is not.

Do you even know how chill works?
To make Battle Standard recharge on a 399s cooldown you have to mantain chill for 399s, from the time it goes on cooldown to the end of the recharge.

Are you capable to mantain Chill for that long? No. You can mantain chill for only 20s, which means that you’re increasing the recharge of Battle Standard for a whooping 13.2s, assuming you succeed to mantain Chill for the whole duration of the plague on your enemy and the AoE system does not decide to select another enemy to be hit by the plague (because all AoEs in this game have a cap of 5 players, if you didn’t know), which will happen in most cases. In a real situation, you rarely are capable to mantain chill on your enemies for more than four-five seconds because nothing garantees you that Plague will hit always the same 5 enemies, which means that you’re increasing their cooldowns for only 3s, 5 seconds if you are lucky enough and this assuming that those skills do not finish to recharge before the chill ends, because in that case the recharge increase is even less.

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/how-does-chill-affect-skill-recharge-exactly/first#post988001

I stand by what i said of Chill winning engagements though i thank you for the lesson.

Ascii.9726:

I stand by what i said of Chill winning engagements though i thank you for the lesson.

Than it’s your opinion and it is something which might work for you, it is not an absolute truth as you’re saying it is, neither it is a must go in every situation.

I had all the rights to say that 5s or less of situational more cooldown on enemy skills every 180s is not worth 10 points spent without being dismissed as an “inexperienced player” or empty “theorycrafter”, especially as you seemed convinced that chill worked differently.

You have no way with your experience to effectively know how much kitten situational more cooldown on a 25v25 fight impacts the encounter’s outcome, so you can’t be sure that what you’re saying is absolutely true, like you’re the only one making a real difference in such an huge fight.
Good for you if you are sure about it, but people have the right to point out that probably there is an alternative to what you are proposing that might work better.

@sorrow.2364
The other argument is that chill isn’t just a skill cooldown extender, its also a far superior version of cripple that can be gained by doing what Plague Necromancers should be doing which is blinding. Preventing people from regrouping or keeping them away from a caster of a water field by locking them down with chill are other reasons why Chilling Darkness is a superior trait.

Static Field is arguably the single most gamechanging skills there is in WvW, countless times my server has won an out-manned engagement by a beautifully placed Static Field followed by mass nuking Even if Chill wasn’t as strong as i thought it to be (x1.66 CD duration for skills used when chilled rather then x1.66 for every second whilst chilled) putting this on a max 13.2 second longer cooldown could affect the outcome of an engagement.

I may have thought chill worked differently, but i also thought boon duration affected AoE boons (and argued the 15% boon duration on AoE might) until i was corrected. As such i took that mistake on board and am actually testing a variation of the build right now, so don’t think i wont reevaluate chill as i use it over the next week, but as it stands chills benefits are still very clear to me and everyone else on this thread who have said Chilling Darkness is an almost mandatory trait.

You must also remember this build is a variation of a standard PTV Necromancer but uses precision instead of vitality, and Melandru + Lemongrass instead of Compote + other tank runes. The precision given from the Curses tree make up a fair chunk of the critical chance of the build whilst picking up very strong utility traits.

GvG’s arnt won by single people its a team effort, but a single person can massively effect its outcome.

Ascii.9726:

@sorrow.2364
The other argument is that chill isn’t just a skill cooldown extender, its also a far superior version of cripple that can be gained by doing what Plague Necromancers should be doing which is blinding. Preventing people from regrouping or keeping them away from a caster of a water field by locking them down with chill are other reasons why Chilling Darkness is a superior trait.

Static Field is arguably the single most gamechanging skills there is in WvW, countless times my server has won an out-manned engagement by a beautifully placed Static Field followed by mass nuking Even if Chill wasn’t as strong as i thought it to be (x1.66 CD duration for skills used when chilled rather then x1.66 for every second whilst chilled) putting this on a max 13.2 second longer cooldown could affect the outcome of an engagement.

I may have thought chill worked differently, but i also thought boon duration affected AoE boons (and argued the 15% boon duration on AoE might) until i was corrected. As such i took that mistake on board and am actually testing a variation of the build right now, so don’t think i wont reevaluate chill as i use it over the next week, but as it stands chills benefits are still very clear to me and everyone else on this thread who have said Chilling Darkness is an almost mandatory trait.

You must also remember this build is a variation of a standard PTV Necromancer but uses precision instead of vitality, and Melandru + Lemongrass instead of Compote + other tank runes. The precision given from the Curses tree make up a fair chunk of the critical chance of the build whilst picking up very strong utility traits.

GvG’s arnt won by single people its a team effort, but a single person can massively effect its outcome.

That’s the kind of reply I wanted the first time I’ve posted here.

I know that Plague of Darkness is really strong, but chill isn’t a so much more stronger version of cripple regarding snaring, in my opinion. The movement reduction difference is only 16%, which isn’t that much after all.

The point is that you can try to test dancing between Plague of Darkness and Plague of Pestilence. With 20 points in Spite, Weakness and Cripple will stack, allowing you to have the advantages of both Plague of Darkness and Plague of Pestilence.

The main difference is that you have a slightly less snare and no cooldown reductions, but you also have the advantages of Weakness, which shut down the enemy dodging capability, which is vital to get out from an AoE or from a tough situation.

Also, since pretty much anyone in WvWvW runs Lemongrass and Melandru runes, I thought that probably having some extra condition duration might help to make sure that those conditions last enough time to do what they are supposed to do.

@sorrow.2364
Plague of Darkness is the only realistic use of Plague, traited or not. I don’t mean this in a this is the only option because i say it is but because the benefits of forcing an attack to completely miss vast out-weight simply reducing its damage. Plague of Pestilence would only be feasible if you know you are going to win the engagement and the enemy poses no risk to shutting down your backline.

The damage reduction would be nice don’t get me wrong, but it cant really compare to say blinding a stun, or burn condition or even some form of non-ground AoE like Wail of Doom.

If im absolutely truthfully honest on Chilling Darkness it could be swapped out but IMO only for Banshees Wail (mainly for the additional duration of Locust Swarms cripple & -kitten CD but also the +1 second onto daze.) This would still fill the role of being a movement impairment thats passive so you can still blind on plague but would still mean 20 points in Curses (with obviously the additional 5 for Target the Weak).

Furious Demise is still quite a strong trait, especially in this build with 110% critical damage. Though 90% of the time i reserve my DS CD for a disengage or meat-shield there are times when i can safely flick it on and off and drop the well nuke.

Lemongrass + Melandru is pretty hurtful for Plague but thats just a bi-product of how strong this combo is and why condition builds are best kept to a minimum and also why I’ve favored it over my previous build using beryl orbs.

Ascii.9726:

@sorrow.2364
Plague of Darkness is the only realistic use of Plague, traited or not. I don’t mean this in a this is the only option because i say it is but because the benefits of forcing an attack to completely miss vast out-weight simply reducing its damage. Plague of Pestilence would only be feasible if you know you are going to win the engagement and the enemy poses no risk to shutting down your backline.

The damage reduction would be nice don’t get me wrong, but it cant really compare to say blinding a stun, or burn condition or even some form of non-ground AoE like Wail of Doom.

If im absolutely truthfully honest on Chilling Darkness it could be swapped out but IMO only for Banshees Wail (mainly for the additional duration of Locust Swarms cripple & -kitten CD but also the +1 second onto daze.) This would still fill the role of being a movement impairment thats passive so you can still blind on plague but would still mean 20 points in Curses (with obviously the additional 5 for Target the Weak).

Lemongrass + Melandru is pretty hurtful for Plague but thats just a bi-product of how strong this combo is and why condition builds are best kept to a minimum and also why I’ve favored it over my previous build using beryl orbs.

Actually, Banshee Wail is a great choice. If you put a Sigil of Paralyzation on any of the two weapons, you have a massive 4s AoE daze (15% more stun duration is rounded up with daze) every 25s (if I’m not wrong) which is way more threatening than chill every 180s.

Most of our PTV Necromancers do just that (as they can afford to use Paralyzation in there weapons) but they actually run 0/30/20/20/0 or because they are much more utility reliant then damage. We have yet to have our next Necro workshop and break the build session since the last patch but its something i did plan on bringing up when we do.

If i was to drop a sigil for Paralyzation it would be Blood, but given how strong this has been over the past couple weeks at healing it would be very difficult for me to justify to myself, even for something as strong as +1s Daze * 5.

Ascii, I want to say “Thank you!” for sharing your build and your reasonings behind it. This really helped me to shape and refine a Zerg/Well-Build to my taste and my WvW-environment.

Just to share my experiences (these are NOT recommendations for serious GvG-Actions on top-tier!) running with an angry mob in EU T2/T3 (no organised GvG):
-) I don’t use Melandru-Runes and Lemongrass-Food; I never felt that conditions are that much of a problem in my environment so I prefer Ruby/Beryl-Orbs
-) I do not own the set of ascended jewellery used in Ascii’s proposed build. I feel that Exotics are ok as long as you keep Ascii’s minimum requirements (50% critchance; 2700 attack/armour); crit-dmg is not that important. Currently I use Celestial trinkets (the only ascended ones I have access to atm), which is better than just exotics but definetly NOT RECOMMENDED.
I just want to mention this for all those who like Nemesis’ Hybrid-PVE-build as much as I do (—> you can use those celestial trinkets for WvW too…)
-) I like Well of Darkness instead of Spectral Walk; WoD does a good job at keeping my zerg alive; SW is only good for my own survival, which is not that important in WvW
-) I considered Well of Blood as healing skill. However, a reliable condition removal is really neccessary, so Consume Conditions is still my favourite.

Again, please take all this as my experiences in my WvW-setting and not as recommendations or Meta-something.

Ascii build and advice is good for those that want to power necro in WvW.

Ascii.9726:

Most of our PTV Necromancers do just that (as they can afford to use Paralyzation in there weapons) but they actually run 0/30/20/20/0 or because they are much more utility reliant then damage. We have yet to have our next Necro workshop and break the build session since the last patch but its something i did plan on bringing up when we do.

If i was to drop a sigil for Paralyzation it would be Blood, but given how strong this has been over the past couple weeks at healing it would be very difficult for me to justify to myself, even for something as strong as +1s Daze * 5.

ASCII, thanks for sharing…..Do you think this build could work with a more condition focus? Rabid gear maybe? Now that AoE cleanse is harder to pull off?

something like this?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNBmODbkRrSPTTcjfPBIp46nnU494RPGuYmB

@divbyzero.1275
Melandru + Lemongrass might be an NA thing but its a very very strong set of buffs that removes alot of pressure when in the enemies backline.

Knowing im taking much less condition damage means when im doing stuff like Plaguing or in Deathshroud (and have no access to cleanses or heals) i can withstand being bombarded by enemies alot longer then usual.

If you cant afford Ascended trinkets i would highly recommended whatever exotic trinkets you do use, you use exquisite charged quartz jewel in them, there stat spread is very generous when compared to a typical +25 +15 +15 orb.

Walk is purely optional (i just prefer the teleport and LF regen because i backline dive alot with Retal up). Well of Darkness is the utility id pick over it and sometimes do.

@Altroll
Isn’t your “mighty meta” build in need of a bump by you? Interesting i didn’t see any of your amazing meta builds in the PAX qualifiers, i guess they didn’t understand the sheer overpoweredness of them.

If you have nothing constructive to say about this build or any relevant questions regarding this thread, please don’t post on it.

Rasudin.9238
As the current WvW meta stands conditions are only viable for solo roaming or havoc squads, when it comes to organized GvGs there just too much AoE condition removal around (not to forget the -65% to -98% condition builds by Warriors and some Eles).

Although i would recommend against this when doing organized GvGs you could get away with a build thats in full rabid and focuses entirely on condition damage over duration allowing any conditions you do land to tick nicely.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNArYWjMah6tbaa87JAJFX/8kCvHP6RxDnMA-jEyAINBRaBIhJQ5wioxWNLiGrmBTlSEV75LiWtUAQsGA-w

This was a build i have just recommended to someone else in whispers asking the same thing. Suffering wont be worth picking up because of the lack of power and critical damage, Darkness would have much more of an impact.

If you decide to use corruption sigil on an separate weapon you can replace it with +5% critical chance.

I’m not claiming to know anything about Conditiomancers in GvG so don’t hold me too accountable!

Hope this helps!

Been theory crafting a bit with condi builds in GvG. Lets say in a 20v20 4 necros running Signet of spite + epidemic + well of corruption could do some damage to the enemy melee train. Condi bomb (+ staff rotation +DS #2/5) used at the same time by all necros and more importantly used at the RIGHT time, not as soon as you engage, rather wait till they blow their utility cooldowns etc.
Havent tested this, but Im going to when I get the chance.

Thanks Ascii for contributing to the overall WvW Necro community, this is some interesting reading.

Can you post the build you’d recommend with only the ascended neck (assuming most ppl can get that fairly quick) so people can try this out?

Ascii.9726:

*

Rasudin.9238
As the current WvW meta stands conditions are only viable for solo roaming or havoc squads, when it comes to organized GvGs there just too much AoE condition removal around (not to forget the -65% to -98% condition builds by Warriors and some Eles).

Although i would recommend against this when doing organized GvGs you could get away with a build thats in full rabid and focuses entirely on condition damage over duration allowing any conditions you do land to tick nicely.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNArYWjMah6tbaa87JAJFX/8kCvHP6RxDnMA-jEyAINBRaBIhJQ5wioxWNLiGrmBTlSEV75LiWtUAQsGA-w

This was a build i have just recommended to someone else in whispers asking the same thing. Suffering wont be worth picking up because of the lack of power and critical damage, Darkness would have much more of an impact.

If you decide to use corruption sigil on an separate weapon you can replace it with +5% critical chance.

I’m not claiming to know anything about Conditiomancers in GvG so don’t hold me too accountable!

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the quick, precise and informative reply. One more question…. Using your condition suggested build would you focus one enemy use all staff , dagger and scepter skills and then use epidemic? I find that my target is long dead before that… Would it be better to use well of suffering even though I’m condition focused, and rely on bleeds off crits for damage?

@Aphix.9846
Conditions arnt dead and completely useless par-say and less amount of people there are the more effective they become (if you compare a 60 man full BL zerg to say a GvG 20 vs. 20 it would become more effective because of the lack of passive condi removal flying around).

Pretty much every Warrior on NA runs Melandru, Lemongrass and Dogged March. So were-as the poison and bleed might be somewhat effective damage the cripple is almost never going to stick (then apply that to Chilling Darkness, Staff 3 ect).

The damage would be effective if you can land such a combo after there stability & healing phase though and it could be worth playtesting for people who enjoy condition builds.

@Mangelhaft.5289
If your planning on following what i layed out as the core fundamentals for a more damage based Wellomancer, then just simply follow the armour pattern too (buy Berserker + Valkyrie. You can also buy Cavaliers if you want the immediate boost in toughness just make sure you offset it with Berserker rings).

As long as your sitting on 50% critical chance, 50%+ critical damage, 2700+ armour and 2700+ attack you cant really go wrong with what armour sets you buy.

@Rasudin.9238
You will almost always be nuking into the crowd rather then a single target to gain maximum damage, conditions, tags and life siphoning. Despite the water fields, condition removal and such, Epidemic will almost always be active and should be spammed on every CD.

If you wanted too you can T mark someone in the area your nuking and Epidemic after the 2-5 nuke (i wouldn’t have the luxury of this because we save targeting for our Necros so we don’t overlap plague or for our melee train leader so we know his location).

The only reason i use Well of Suffering is because the damage spikes massively with the power, critical damage and critical chance. Damage is not the main piroity of a teamfight necromancer disruption is, and you really cant go wrong with Darkness. It will also benefit your team much more then suffering would with the 25 attacks blinded.

If you really wanted to get Suffering though i would drop Epidemic for it.

Thats why I mentioned GvG or just more small-scale fights, power will always be better for blowing up blobs.
Also using condi duration runes(lyssa,nightmare)/+ 40% condi duration food etc doesnt it negate the -65% that melandru +food warriors have ? Not sure how that kitten works.
Also keep in mind that 4 epidemics on one target with 5 stack of bleeding for example will cause 5 players to get 20 stacks on them, obviously the stacks can spread out to 10 players instead etc but still, same goes for vulnerability (5%-25% more damage depending on the RNG and how many melee they got)… also that kind of condi bomb will be hard to cleanse because most of the melee train will have a full set of condis on them and used at the right time it can be very effective.

I ran a condi build for a long time in wvw months ago, I used to run corrupt boon (pre-nerf) and epidemic and I used to cast it on the enemy guardian (commander best option) with a full set of boons and then epidemic, a few necros in my group did the same and every time we landed corrupt boon on the commander we pretty much forced them to stack up and heal and they were in a very bad situation Just mentioning this because condis and focusing players at the right time can really have a big effect.

Ascii.9726:

@Aphix.9846
Conditions arnt dead and completely useless par-say and less amount of people there are the more effective they become (if you compare a 60 man full BL zerg to say a GvG 20 vs. 20 it would become more effective because of the lack of passive condi removal flying around).

Pretty much every Warrior on NA runs Melandru, Lemongrass and Dogged March. So were-as the poison and bleed might be somewhat effective damage the cripple is almost never going to stick (then apply that to Chilling Darkness, Staff 3 ect).

The damage would be effective if you can land such a combo after there stability & healing phase though and it could be worth playtesting for people who enjoy condition builds.

Smart, yes in lower size fights conditions are fine I made the change from power wells to conditions because our guild does more 5 – 10 man roaming and the zergs we attack are in the 15-30 range. I found conditions plenty effective and we already have engs for vuln stacking. Lemon grass will counter pizza/koi cakes so its a wash, Melandru runes however destroy fear damage so I don’t recommend builds that push fear duration to max by taking master of terror anymore. Its overkill on typical wvw pug players your going to win the fight anyway, better to use the trait points on soul marks or just not go into the DS line as conditions in WvW.

Also I’m so kitten sick of seeing the mightytroll trolling good necros giving correct advice. He does not wvw he has no guild that does GvG his Tpvp rating is terrible and his builds are below average theory craft level trash. Dude just does not play any game mode GvG, WvW, pve, spvp or tpvp at any level where he should be giving advice. Pure garbage with an ego of unreal levels for no reason he has done nothing is part of nothing and adds nothing of value to the necro forums.

After reading this thread, I decided to revisit my tanky WvW build and gearing. Maybe what I did would be helpful to somebody (or maybe it’ll just be troll comment food).

From a 0/30/0/20/20 build using PVT gear with undead and carrion gemming, I dropped 10 points in curses to pick up 5 points in spite and 25 points in SR, and regemmed to knight’s and berserker’s. I ended up with this:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=V00;3kH-G0D43KkJ0;9;44J-JO;135;217-19-c;04c;9c-F61-qW90;0V9-E0J1OYTZZ_9sVG-6kW8;0V8a-0-qc2;9;9;9;1VVVVVV;9;14-6Z

… one could swap out Weakening Shroud for Chilling Darkness if one wanted; I found losing Chilling Darkness to be noticeable, so maybe it’d be better that way. Likewise, you could swap out 5 points in SR for 5 in curses. The increase in sustain from going 5 points in spite was pretty impressive. I think for a low crit PVT gear build it’s worth getting.

The next experiment I am thinking about is to drop exotic soldier’s gear, pick up knight’s, and go 0/20/0/30/20:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=V00;3kH-G0D43KkJ0;9;5J-TJ;135;217419-c;04c;9c-k91-31D0;0VAVFWKXP2V3a_9sVGk-BV8;0V8a-0-qc2;9;9;9;1VVVVVV;9;14-6p

I’m curious as to whether the combo of both vampiric and vampiric precision will provide the same kind of sustain as my previous build… the trade off of vitality for toughness I’m not totally thrilled about, but the gain in crit chance I think is required for the build.

Thanks again to Ascii for this thread. Just when I thought my necro was settled, it’s become interesting again.

Thank you Ascii for sharing, and thanks to everyone for making this thread, very informative.

@Aphix.9846 & Xom.9264

Yea it would null out some of the condition duration loss but then you have to look at the negatives of that too (duration over damage est.) and also account for the fact most of the condition cleanses are simply straight up condition removals (most notability shout-heal warriors and guardians, cleansing waves and mass water field spamming with projectiles & blasts).

Absolutely nothing wrong with Corrupt Booning enemy commanders even now. We have a ‘hit squad’ if you will that sole goal is to find and kill enemy commanders and/or melee train leaders.

I recently finished my Conditionmancer build for Havocing and started using it last night for a few hours. Despite it having capped condition duration, whenever we bumped into our map zerg fighting the enemies zerg i found it very hard to find a target with conditions on them and epidemic it before they either cleansed them, moved out of range or i got interrupted.

As i play it more i will attempt to accuracy rate its effectiveness in large scale fights and maybe get some footage of it in play then post my findings here.

@sas.6483
Your first build is mainly a PTV Wellomancer, which means the minimum requirements i try to set for my build wouldn’t apply (as your role would shift from disruption>= damage to disruption > damage) and i would begin to recommend things like Well of Darkness over Well of Suffering, Chilling Darkness over Weakening shroud.

If i was running PTV over Cavalier this would most likely be my build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNBHhZakRLbPUTTjfTBIV46JFcPOUhdjeU8wLD-jEyAoLBRyRgIEgZvioxWGLiGreBTXSEV7xLiWtMAMjB-w
(i would of put sentinels armour and ascended soldiers trinkets but both are super expensive and PTV necros are more common then Cavaliers).

• I would go for 5 point spite on-top of double restoration (more health pool so more to heal plus there’s not much that can replace them for non-crit builds).
• I would focus on a PTV necros main goal of disruption (taking 4 second dazes & darkness).
• I would choose armour over walk because DS health would have much more to offer and id prefer to be able to build it up much quicker.

When i last did the maths on Vampiric and Vampiric Precision over Bloodthirst, after 40% critical chance Vampiric Precision would heal more (on average) then Bloodthirst. This was done before the scaling change so ill have to re-evaluate it but the change wasn’t that major so i would say its still a safe bet until then.

In terms of there sustain, your almost always taking 5 people every 0.5 – 1 second, remember these traits also damage as well as heal.

Ascii.9726:

If i was running PTV over Cavalier this would most likely be my build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNBHhZakRLbPUTTjfTBIV46JFcPOUhdjeU8wLD-jEyAoLBRyRgIEgZvioxWGLiGreBTXSEV7xLiWtMAMjB-w

…

You know, after playing another night with 5 points in spite, I am totally convinced it is the right way to go. As for the rest of the difference, I used to run with WoD instead of WoS, and I still run SA in my PvP build… maybe I should give both of them a second try in WvW, although I’ve been spoiled by 25% movement speed for a long time. The other thing I’ve been spoiled by is the DS improvements from SR; I think I’d have a hard time giving them up.

The one thing I’ll suggest in the build given is that one might swap out the azurite jewels for ruby. Although it isn’t in line with disruption, ruby gems are I think the cheapest (in terms of relative cost) way to increase effective power. From the builds I’ve done, it’s usually the case that to get a 1% increase in EP, one has to give up about 2% of EH. Ruby gems are the only exception to that, I think it’s about a 1.5% increase in EP per 1% loss of EH.

Hi I’m currently a conditionmancer with full rabid and thinking about on changing to a much team-oriented wvw build and I was reading the whole thread and I really find your build and playstyle very convincing.

I got a couple of questions though:

1. Against an organized/gvg zerg running melandru and lemon grass, will the 1 sec blind and chill be still effective enough even with the -condition duration?

2. Does Sigil of Blood procs on multiple target when using AoE skill or it only affects the main target?

3. If Sigil of Blood only procs on a single target even using an AoE skill, would you consider Sigil of Fire for more AoE damage or Sigil of Restoration for more survivability on ZvZ?

4. What stacking on-kill sigil are you using?

Let me preface by saying that I’ve never played my necro in WvW and I’m not in a particularly competitive tier. It’s usually just PUG zergs running around on a “karma train”.

Having said that, I’d like to try this build, but I’d like to get a better idea of where I should start. I’ve tried to take mental note of everything I’ve read, but just to be sure:

• Beryl orbs would be acceptable in place of Melandru runes?
• PVT gear (Power, Vitality, Toughness), correct?
• Use Exquisite Charged Quartz Jewels in accessories? Should I also use Charged Quartz accessories or keep with PVT stats?
• A bit confused on the sigils, should I use Restoration or Blood?
• Do you suggest taking 5 points in Spite as a starter build or is copying it as is fine?

Sorry for all the questions, but any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

@Lane
Spend some more time researching posts on the forum. More important than raw stats ore the associated bonuses with certain runes. Many on this forum pick runes for things like Might, Chill, condition duration, and so on.

Think of what kind of build you want and maximize your potential there. Necromancer has many viable builds but they are not good in all situations, only specific ones. What most people end up doing is avoiding a build where weapons, armor stats, runes, sigils, and traits have sub-optimal synnergy.

Sorry if this sounds vague and complicated but that is life, literally. If it was easier, then GW2 would not be as fun.

Anchoku.8142:

Think of what kind of build you want and maximize your potential there. Necromancer has many viable builds but they are not good in all situations, only specific ones.

I want this build for WvW, that’s why I posted in this thread. O_o It’s actually almost identical to one I’d already mapped out on my own with only a 10 point variation.

The reasons for my questions are because some of the responses suggested modifications and substitutions if you’re new to it and/or don’t have the ability to obtain the same level of gear. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear, I thought I’d been specific.

Sorry for the late responses been tied up with the new achievements (curse ANet and there love for limited time achievements and content).

@Avalanzhe.5761
When plaguing you want to skip past the enemies melee train and plague on there backline to minimize damage. The melandru + lemongrass does hurt plague yes but most backlines don’t run it and the chance of blinding aoe stun or daze makes it all the more worth it.

If you really really cant run Chilling Darkness, use Banshee’s Wail instead for +1s dazes, +2s locust swarms and CD on the skills.

Sigil of Blood can only proc once for 1 heal, but it can proc of anything your laying down (wells, marks est.) The damage done will be dealt to whoever proced the sigil. With you tagging up to 5 builds every second this sigil is almost always going to proc one of CD.

I’ve considered Sigil of Fire for along time now, its a very strong sigil (1,100 – 1,300 * 5) but i believe the heals are stronger (because they both heal and damage) People could use Fire for more DPS if they want but i recommend Blood.

I use Power stacking sigil on a separate weapon.

@Lane.3410
I really wouldn’t recommend anything but Melandrus, but Beryl orbs would be my next choice if Melandru didn’t exist or i was super super bad at farming.

My build is not Soldier build its a Cavalier/ knight mixture. Nothing is wrong with PTV but its a separate build/ playstyle to what my build is.

Yes, Exquisite Charged Quartz Jewels in your trinkets if there exotic.

If your using my build (50% crit chance) use Blood, if your using PTV use Restoration.

5 Points would be for the PTV build, i recommend re-reading the original OP!

[PTV Wellomancer] [Cavalier Wellomancer]

Ascii.9726:

My build is not Soldier build its a Cavalier/ knight mixture. Nothing is wrong with PTV but its a separate build/ playstyle to what my build is.

5 Points would be for the PTV build, i recommend re-reading the original OP!

Thanks for the response. My questions were based off of suggestions I read you give others in the thread. As I said, I was going off memory of three pages of posts and additionally I’m sure the lines were blurred by others discussing PTV builds since I didn’t realize there was a significant difference between the two.

Ascii.9726:

The fact you said “why do you even have Plague Form on this?” makes me and every single teamfight Necro laugh in your face. You don’t know what your talking about so stop posting.

I, as with the guild I am in, have long crossed swords with you and TW, much respect. That said, this is the first time I have actually taken the time to read the entirety of this thread…and having run across the above quoted mention. All I can say is that I fully concur with your sentiments, as some others here have already done. The only thing I can add to what I have read and quoted is….wow, just wow….unreal.

Thanks Ascii, I really do enjoy this build concept and I can really see now my presence during GvG/WvW.

Hey everyone, i just thought id say i am still actively monitoring this thread as and when people decide to post on it and am still happy to answer any questions as soon as I’m back from my holiday in NYC on Thursday (heres me with Spongebob)

I’m pretty sure with all the new armor stat sets and runes replacing magic find coupled with WvW leagues there will be some sort of meta change that i will be covering asap.

I will also begin to livestream both large scale and solo roaming WvW over on my channel.

Cya all later!

Hi ! I’ve been trying your build around recently, I come for some feedback and ask some things :
:
First let’s talk about my background : I’ve always played as a conditionmancer roaming and I know really few of power/Well builds. So there may be stupid questions I beg you to forgive ^^

1) I found Axe + Warhorn really efficient, doing exactly what is needed while Zerging : Retaliation for more damage, #2 for being sure to loot a bag when zerg vs small group. I just read this trick about #5 WH + Plague, it seems pretty obvious to me now but I’ll try that next time I log on^^

2)I have a deep question… What is staff for ? I’m sure this must sound really stupid when you have the answer but … are you using the staff for the chilling/poisoning/explosion ability ? Because for sure it’s really good but I seldom switch to staff befause I usually finish people with Axe. I read above that you said Axe isn’t made for dealing damage in that build so I must do it wrong… explain me ! =)

3)I just subscribed you YT channel and saw you didn’t upload much zerging for quite a long time … Please bring on fresh content ! I’ll gladly give you views and likes.

4) It has been 3 months since you uploaded this build… Did it change in any way ?

Here you go, hope there are no too stupid questions ^^ Thanks for answering !!

Ok lets stop this guessing and get some numbers.

Asciis first build

Effective Power = 1866 × [1 + 0.45 × (2.09 – 1)]
Effective Power = 1866 × [1 + 0.45 × (1.09)]
Effective Power = 1866 × [1 + 0.4905]
Effective Power = 1866 × [1.4905]
Effective power = 1866* 1.04
Effective power = 1941

The input value for Target the Weak is 4%, a conservative number.

Effective Health = (Health × Armor)/(Reference Armor)
Effective Health = (21252 × 2918)/(1836)
Effective Health = (21252 × 2918)/(1836)
Effective Health = 33776

My wellomancer
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNBHhZakRLcvSTTjfPBIz46nnU494xMKeYA-jEzAYLBRCTgICgJPl1EogYZsIasabMtLgKeR1GcFNTeqt7AyAwsAA-w

Effective Power = 2591 × [1 + 0.43 × (2.22 – 1)]
Effective Power = 2591 × [1 + 0.43 × (1.22)]
Effective Power = 2591 × [1 + 0.5246]
Effective Power = 2591 × [1.5246]
Effective Power = 2718 * (damage modifier)
Effective Power = 2718 * (1.05*1.04)
Effective Power = 2718 * (1.092)
Effective Power = 2968
Effective Power = 3264 with marks

Effective Health = (2106 × 20372)/(1836)
Effective Health = 23368

Ascii’s build has in comparison to mine
35% less general damage
41% less mark damage
20% less condition duration
less retaliation damage (calced later)

45% more survivability
+25% stun duration
+65% condition expiration

+Sigil of Blood- Because this skill is bugged on a 5 second cooldown. You will onlyheal 463 and do an extra damage packet of 452.
+/- Chilling darkness: Practically no effect in your build unless you’re in plague spamming 2.

Verdict
One build is designed as a ranged powerhouse, the other is more resilient with less damage. It comes down to the guild and the strategy.

In my guild, necromancers are ranged nukes that don’t need a lot of resilience because there is a melee train of support and stun guardians and warriors that take pressure off of them.

@KinXiao.6240

Staff is mainly used for the downtime between rotations (such as WH4 > DS or Plague) and for nuking onto walls. Marks are also very useful for discouraging heavy pushing by laying them down into choke-points or at doors.

I upload videos as and when i have time to fraps and then edit videos for my YouTube channel, recently I’ve begun Twitch Livestreaming so you can check out my play style there when I’m recording.

@jul.7602

I’m really not sure what your comparing my build with, as you haven’t provided one of your own, just a link to my one.

Given the figures though heres my thoughts;

• 45% more survivability is much greater then 35% more damage IMO. If you die and rally an enemy force that’s it, game over. Having 45% more survivability also allows you to control the field a lot longer through Plague, Locust Swarm and Deathshroud jumping. My playstyle is aggressive frontline not backline nuking and i like to be able to tank a full enemy melee train.

• 41% mark damage is not that massive, Staff is used purely for a 2-5 nuke and Vampiric + Blood procs for a small burst heal (2.2k + regen) whilst other skill rotations are down and i never find myself lingering on staff for more then 10 seconds.

• “Less retaliation damage” I’m not sure what this means, as Retaliation is based off the enemies power and not yours.

• 20% less condition duration is pretty much 0 helpfulness given the guardian & shout warrior meta, with corruption being fixed and staff 2 & 3 being low condition damage based, condition duration really have no use in this build.

• -65% condition duration is very helpful, it allows us to last in Plague much longer then usual and tank a heavy condi burst without taking much damage when your melee train isn’t there.

• -25% stun duration has saved my life more times then i can count.

• Sigil of Blood is indeed bugged but is still a consistent and very helpful method of sustain and damage, with the sheer amount of targets you can proc it off it is always triggered once the ICD is down. When this sigil gets fixed it will be much stronger too.

• Chill of Darkness is not as effective as I’ve found it to be in the past now Wail of Doom can be picked up alongside Targeted Wells. I have since been using VI, VIII and making sure i Locust Swarm before plaguing to make up for the loss in control.

Correct link is this I think:

Necromancer Tier 1 WvW by Ascii

Ascii.9726

• “Less retaliation damage” I’m not sure what this means, as Retaliation is based off the enemies power and not yours.

Actually… if you are hit while having rataliation then it’s your own power that is used to calculate the damage, although that hardly matters these days because retaliation got nerfed so hard that everyone does about the same damage anyway.