Guild Wars 2

It needed way more than a 10% increase. Why was 10% settled on on all the bad autoattack weapons for necro and mesmer, while thief is receiving 25%+ damage boosts?

At least we’re not rangers, who got nothing done for they garbage weapon autoattack numbers.

yeah its not good but its something...i dont really care about axe tbh

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Ranger autoattacks can hit more than one enemy.

10% is awful.

Here’s what shoud be done.

Figure out what lifeblast DPS is then apply the formula:

(Death Shroud rotation DPS). * (120%) =. (Axe 1 + Axe 2 + Warhorn 5 damage rotation)

Then play with the numbers however they want.

Found it pretty amusing that ghastly claws wasnt also buffed by a smidgen.

I think axe auto is fine now. Trait for more axe dmg and it scales higher and with the range increase you can easily put 4 stacks of weakness on a target while running up to melle with dagger.

Range buff is good for pvp variety, doubt it will be used in pve too much though, since its still a single target weapon.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Hexalot.8194:

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Mesmer Greatsword auto has 1200 range…

Hexalot.8194:

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Mesmer GS aa is 1200 range and scales by the further they are the more damage it deals.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Hexalot.8194:

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Mesmer GS aa is 1200 range and scales by the further they are the more damage it deals.

The wiki is off by a mile then…

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dusk_Strike

Edit… LOL we are talking about mesmer here. mix up sorry.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Hexalot.8194:

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Mesmer GS aa is 1200 range and scales by the further they are the more damage it deals.

And hits more targets.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Hexalot.8194:

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Mesmer GS aa is 1200 range and scales by the further they are the more damage it deals.

It also hits multiple targets if foes are close to the one the mesmer is targeting.

Axe needs to be able to hit foes near your target for some cleave. The damage is meh…. but its not like too bad considering its instant hit on use (no projectile travel time and it can’t be reflected) I mean for what it does… its ok ish…. But now that it has 900 range you cant expect it to be buffed much more than maybe hitting up to 3 foes max if they are close to your focused target.

meow one twenty.4376:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Hexalot.8194:

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Mesmer GS aa is 1200 range and scales by the further they are the more damage it deals.

And hits more targets.

Any serious mesmer would tell you though that the GS auto attack damage is crap… even at max range. Mesmer GS really shines because of mirror blade and the iBerserker phantasm. Oh and of course it’s knock back skill.

Hexalot.8194:

meow one twenty.4376:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Hexalot.8194:

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Mesmer GS aa is 1200 range and scales by the further they are the more damage it deals.

And hits more targets.

Any serious mesmer would tell you though that it’s GS auto attack damage is crap… even at max range. Mesmer GS really shines because of mirror blade and the iBerserker phantasm. Oh and of course it’s knock back skill.

This is also true. Even at scale its not the way to go about effectively killing some one.

I dont expect axe damage to get any stronger but the range is a massive buff to making it more useful even if its jus to scrape that last 5% of hp off a mob or enemy. I still hope for maybe minimal cleave.

ZDragon.3046:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Hexalot.8194:

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Mesmer GS aa is 1200 range and scales by the further they are the more damage it deals.

It also hits multiple targets if foes are close to the one the mesmer is targeting.

Axe needs to be able to hit foes near your target for some cleave. The damage is meh…. but its not like too bad considering its instant hit on use (no projectile travel time and it can’t be reflected) I mean for what it does… its ok ish…. But now that it has 900 range you cant expect it to be buffed much more than maybe hitting up to 3 foes max if they are close to your focused target.

Plus the fact that axe is a 1h weapon. I wish axe had a pull or something….that would be fantastic as we don’t have near enough pulls as we should for our lack of mobility.

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

The greatsword has some built-in counterplay: close the gap and you reduce the damage. The Axe doesn’t have to worry about that. It also applies Vulnerability, making it a threat regardless of the damage.

But speaking about damage, the Mesmer’s greatsword auto also has lower single-target DPS than the Axe even at max range: going by the wiki’s estimates, while the damage coefficient is .945 for the Mesmer’s auto vs the Axe’s .77 (the wiki says .7 but it hasn’t been updated to today’s patch), the greatsword also attacks at 1 attack chain per 1.4 seconds whereas the Axe outputs an attack chain every .95 seconds, giving us .811 power coefficient/second vs the Mesmer Greatsword’s .675 power coefficient.

In other words, the Axe’s auto at any range deals about 20% more damage from power than the Mesmer’s Greatsword auto at its maximum range, and that’s without taking the Axe’s Vulnerability application into account. I suspect the actual damage is less than a 20% difference (still disregarding the Vulnerability) because two-handed weapons have higher base weapon damage than one-handed weapons, but nevertheless, we come out ahead here.

At least, in terms of single-target damage. Hit even one more target with the Greatsword and you dramatically outstrip the Axe. Some cleave around our target might be ok (I like the idea of hitting 2 targets per hit, once to each side of our actual target per chain), but the advantage we currently have is that you never have to worry about your attack not making it to your target. That’s right: if the Mesmer’s greatsword beam hits 3 targets before reaching your intended target, your intended target doesn’t take the least bit of damage. Conversely, you have to spend a cooldown to avoid an Axe’s damage rather than just positioning yourself behind some tankier teammates or friendly minions.

(EDIT: Taking weapon strength into account, it looks like the Necro Axe autoattack has an average 9% damage advantage against the Mesmer Greatsword autoattack when the Mesmer is at 1200 range. The Greatsword auto also loses up to 43% of its damage as the target draws closer, such at even at 900 range the Axe’s total advantage goes up to roughly +27% on average.)

My guess is that with the 900 range they didn’t want to buff it too much in one go without seeing the effects first.

The axe can see some more play now on bosses where staying in melee is really hard to pull off well without disengaging a lot (think Tequatl, as there will be more of those fights in HoT). The 900 range turned axe from “still being kinda in melee range” to “just enough so that I have the space to move a bit without losing uptime”.

One of the problems though, is that the axe stacks vulnerability. Which in a vacuum is the strongest dps increasing condition in the game. (Stronger then most if not all boons as well).
However there is so much of that already going around, that it feels really unnecessary. That is what makes Axe 1 feel so lackluster.

An idea is to center the vulnerability and LF generation a bit more on the #2 skill and turn the auto into a solid dps ability.
The problem with that though, is that it becomes a rather dull auto attack weapon, just like the dagger.
Alternatively, and maybe better, is to put LF generation on the auto attack and turn the #2 into a serious burst ability. That way the axe becomes a good shotgun weapon.

The axe still is a bit “meh”, but at least the range made it useful in a couple of fights.

TheLastNobody.8319:

ZDragon.3046:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Hexalot.8194:

Varonth.5830:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Here’s the issue with the Axe autoattack: there’s very little counterplay to it, less so now that the range has been increased. This means the damage can’t be too high or it becomes incredibly obnoxious. Without having done extensive testing, I’d estimate 10% is probably on the high end of balance-able. If Anet wants to improve the Axe further (and I suspect they probably should), they’ll need to give it something other than just additional damage.

Mesmer greatsword autoattack would like to have a word with you.

Great sword auto attack range is virtually point blank though.

Mesmer GS aa is 1200 range and scales by the further they are the more damage it deals.

It also hits multiple targets if foes are close to the one the mesmer is targeting.

Axe needs to be able to hit foes near your target for some cleave. The damage is meh…. but its not like too bad considering its instant hit on use (no projectile travel time and it can’t be reflected) I mean for what it does… its ok ish…. But now that it has 900 range you cant expect it to be buffed much more than maybe hitting up to 3 foes max if they are close to your focused target.

Plus the fact that axe is a 1h weapon. I wish axe had a pull or something….that would be fantastic as we don’t have near enough pulls as we should for our lack of mobility.

I didnt even consider that but you are right its a one handed weapon. Its not going to have the strength of a gs attack even on autos. The comparison to mesmer GS was not really a good thing to go off of i guess. I still hold to my cleave suggestion though ^^;

the axe’s problem was never its range. It was its lack of useful abilities that hindered it. Even with 900 range on the first two attacks unholy feast is still 600 range. Arguably its most useful skills is still stuck in that range and this also causes another problem since the axe can’t keep people from running away from you when they’re beyond that 600 range. So, in my opinion the range buff was absolutely pointless.

I still see no reason to take this over the staff. Even with its vulnerability and boon corruption it wasn’t very good and you couldn’t justify taking it.

If I was to make some changes I’d play more into that corruption theme and probably have its damage scale up the closer you are to foes as opposed to the further away you are.

Lily.1935:

the axe’s problem was never its range. It was its lack of useful abilities that hindered it. Even with 900 range on the first two attacks unholy feast is still 600 range. Arguably its most useful skills is still stuck in that range and this also causes another problem since the axe can’t keep people from running away from you when they’re beyond that 600 range. So, in my opinion the range buff was absolutely pointless.

I still see no reason to take this over the staff. Even with its vulnerability and boon corruption it wasn’t very good and you couldn’t justify taking it.

If I was to make some changes I’d play more into that corruption theme and probably have its damage scale up the closer you are to foes as opposed to the further away you are.

Actually, range was also a problem. I hope you do realize they can be more than 1 problem with a weapon.

The axe has a niche and that niche is are bosses like taco that makes being in range a problem. It might not be the best weapon we have, but it is an improvement and it can be improved.

Being overly melodramatic does not get results.

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

As for the animation on axe 1, it was changed because of an exploit with cancel casting that allowed players to get significantly more damage from the skill by continually canceling it. At the time I tried to just adjust the original animation so we could keep it but due to its construction that ended up not being feasible. The resulting animation looked extremely choppy and didn’t sync well across races. You are always welcome to make suggestions on alternate animations you’d like to see, but going back to the original animation at this point is extremely unlikely.

And with that I call this case closed lol.
The animation never bothered me that much as i play a charr and eather way it looks charr-ish… to me maybe on races like asura i can see how it would bug people with the change.

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

I can sort of understand this when it comes to the auto attack. But i still think you are being too conservative. However with ghastly claws a single dodge at the start of the channel makes the entire skill miss. So this reason is not really a good enough one to keep ghastly claws in its current state (terrible damage for the channel time).

Well, the wiki isn’t updated yet.

Currently the axe does 238 damage every 0.95 seconds. With a 10% buff, this amounts to 262 per hit, or 267 DPS. At 2 × 7 vulnerability per hit, this comes to 14.7 stacks of vulnerability sustained.

Life Blast does 345 damage within 600 range, and hits every 1.4 seconds. This comes to about 246 DPS. With unyielding blast, this comes to 14.3 stacks of vulnerability sustained.

This is… interesting. Rending claws now does more damage than life blast at any range. Unyielding Blast pierces, but Rending Claws basically bypasses any defense that isn’t a straight up block.

If anything, I’d say that axe is actually a decent weapon now.

Lily.1935:

the axe’s problem was never its range. It was its lack of useful abilities that hindered it. Even with 900 range on the first two attacks unholy feast is still 600 range. Arguably its most useful skills is still stuck in that range and this also causes another problem since the axe can’t keep people from running away from you when they’re beyond that 600 range. So, in my opinion the range buff was absolutely pointless.

I still see no reason to take this over the staff. Even with its vulnerability and boon corruption it wasn’t very good and you couldn’t justify taking it.

If I was to make some changes I’d play more into that corruption theme and probably have its damage scale up the closer you are to foes as opposed to the further away you are.

Axe 2 damage, when used at the right moments, is actually rather nasty as it provides a nice nasty burst of damage. The auto does not and 3 is made to hit multiple targets (I just question why its functionality is boon corruption.) which is ok ish.. I mean retaliation per target you hit. I dont think the skills are not totally un-useable. The range change is a massive boost. The problem i found more often with axe than anything was losing damage due to being out of range.

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

This sounds like a PvP issue. I hope that you are taking that into consideration and not weakening the PvE version because of this.

It needed way more than a 10% increase. Why was 10% settled on on all the bad autoattack weapons for necro and mesmer, while thief is receiving 25%+ damage boosts?

Don’t worry about that, the pistol is still awful and Necro is getting the Reaper.

Hi Robert! Thanks for weighing in!

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

If the Axe still needs buffing, though, would you consider buffing it in a way that adds counterplay back in, rather than leaving the Axe inferior? For example, the Axe is especially good at keeping consistent pressure by resisting many of the common ways opponents might have for avoiding such pressure (more so now that the range has been increased), so why not tie the Vulnerability application to consistent attacks?

Here’s what I have in mind: drop the Vulnerability duration to 3 seconds per stack, but then add on an effect to the Axe’s autoattack that increases the duration of all Vulnerability on the target (or maybe just all Vuln applied by the Necro, or even just by the Axe autoattack) by 1 second per hit, to a maximum duration of 3 seconds per stack (Vulnerability stacks already over 3 seconds wouldn’t be affected).

The math might look kinda complicated, but in practice the dynamic would be very simple: an Axe Necro who’s persistent enough can singlehandedly cap out an opponent’s Vulnerability at range and keep it capped for the entire fight, but all that Vulnerability goes away if the target can manage to keep the Necro off their back for a few seconds. This would give us tremendous dueling potential while also giving our opponent something to play around.

spoj.9672:

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

I can sort of understand this when it comes to the auto attack. But i still think you are being too conservative. However with ghastly claws a single dodge at the start of the channel makes the entire skill miss. So this reason is not really a good enough one to keep ghastly claws in its current state (terrible damage for the channel time).

In a pvp match forcing a foe to dodge at over 600 range from a weapon skill is something you can use to your advantage though. You know by defalt people only get 2 dodges and if the blow one at 700-900 range thats kinda a big deal that is if you pay attention to that sort of thing

ZDragon.3046:

spoj.9672:

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

I can sort of understand this when it comes to the auto attack. But i still think you are being too conservative. However with ghastly claws a single dodge at the start of the channel makes the entire skill miss. So this reason is not really a good enough one to keep ghastly claws in its current state (terrible damage for the channel time).

In a pvp match forcing a foe to dodge at over 600 range from a weapon skill is something you can use to your advantage though. You know by defalt people only get 2 dodges and if the blow one at 700-900 range thats kinda a big deal that is if you pay attention to that sort of thing

That would be true….if it wasn’t also for the fact the 2 gives us LF….than again you do have focus 4. If that was faster on the draw then it’d be good.

The only buff Axe needs at the moment is a blast finisher on the 3. It has competitive (although slightly low) damage for a weapon with 900 range, it just needs unique utility that other weapons do not offer. Give me a blast finisher on the 3 (and on the trait Spiteful Spirit) and I guarantee you I’ll put it to good use.

Although if we’re really wishlisting here, a whirl finisher on the 2 would be awesome as well.

Robert Gee.9246:

As for the animation on axe 1, it was changed because of an exploit with cancel casting that allowed players to get significantly more damage from the skill by continually canceling it. At the time I tried to just adjust the original animation so we could keep it but due to its construction that ended up not being feasible. The resulting animation looked extremely choppy and didn’t sync well across races. You are always welcome to make suggestions on alternate animations you’d like to see, but going back to the original animation at this point is extremely unlikely.

Thank you for the clear direction on how we can help ya’ll come up with alternate solutions.

The problem with the current animation (at least for human male necromancers) is that the swing arcs are too smooth with what the animation seems like it’s trying to portray. It makes it look like the necromancer is either trying to throw the axe, or isn’t actually trying to hurt someone.

I think the easiest solution would be to improve the existing animation by giving it more life. Right now the animation doesn’t have the same fervor present in the old axe animation or the dagger auto attack. A simple way to fix this is to speed up the first swing initially, and have the character halt at the end of the arc (as if he’s actually lodged the axe into something) then have the second “swing” do a very forceful pullback, as if he’s tearing whatever he lodged the axe into open. This would give the existing animation more life.

The best way to imagine this, would be as if the necromancer was doing it in an axe murderer fashion. He swings the axe in a very exaggerated overhead arc, stops as if he lodged the axe into his target, then pulls it backwards as if to tear whatever he landed the axe into open.

Whatever ya’ll decide to do or go with, please make sure the hit animation matches the swing arc used. It looks really weird when you swing the axe vertically but see a horizontal hit animation.

The range increase is nice. As for animations, I just want something that doesn’t look so… pathetic. The name of the AA is Rending Claws, yet the animation looks like some white girl trying to finger snap.

Overall I’ll have to play with it a bit. At this point I still don’t agree that Ghastly Claws being slightly more reliable due to no projectile is enough for it to be so much weaker in comparison to Rapid Fire. It has 0.87 less power scaling, has no vuln or any other utility, and 600 less range. Also, almost all projectile skills (except those given to Necromancer) get projectile finishers, which makes up some of the difference in reliability. Rapid Fire for example should proc 2 projectile finishers per use on average.

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

As for the animation on axe 1, it was changed because of an exploit with cancel casting that allowed players to get significantly more damage from the skill by continually canceling it. At the time I tried to just adjust the original animation so we could keep it but due to its construction that ended up not being feasible. The resulting animation looked extremely choppy and didn’t sync well across races. You are always welcome to make suggestions on alternate animations you’d like to see, but going back to the original animation at this point is extremely unlikely.

I feel that changing the skill one to a chain skill could actually fix this animation issue and the canceling issue. We never had that problem with Scepter. And scepter is in that same boat that its not a projectile auto attack. And isn’t the Mesmer’s greatsword the same as well? At least in the past when I used it it wasn’t blocked by reflects or projectile destruction you just needed line of sight. Like you do the axe. The only difference I see between them is that one makes a purple beam that you can see. But in theory you should be able to use the same tactics to avoid the axe attacks.

The axe had allot of issues before the animation was changed and it wasn’t a favored weapon before. The animation change just sorta made people snap because it was already such a neglected weapon with nothing notable to really talk about. Scepter was condition, staff was substantial control, dagger was amazing in melee, warhorn has great life force and control, off hand dagger has conditions, focus removed boons. It just sorta sat there in this weird limbo where it wasn’t doing anything remarkably well.

So these changes have just felt lack luster to be perfectly honest about it. I know you guys are doing your best and working your hardest to make the necromancer lots of fun and fixing many of their issues. And I applaud that. Corrosive poison cloud has gone from being one of the necromancer’s worst skills to probably one of the most powerful projectile blocks in the game. Scepter feels allot better to run now thanks to that added torment. My lich form or plague not destroying my minions is great. And I’m loving all those changes.

However, back to the Axe, it really isn’t a weapon that can be given a quick fix and be expected to preform well when compared to other weapons like staff or scepter. I feel that the entire philosophy of the weapon needs to be reviewed.

Well i think the problem isnt axe 1 anymore, but more axe 2. Axe2 currently only does DPS and generate lifeforce. IT isnt interesting enough for a DPS weapon, lifeforce is only our class mechanic resource, so compared to other classes this skill does nothing “on its own” for a power / burst weapon.

TheLastNobody.8319:

ZDragon.3046:

spoj.9672:

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

I can sort of understand this when it comes to the auto attack. But i still think you are being too conservative. However with ghastly claws a single dodge at the start of the channel makes the entire skill miss. So this reason is not really a good enough one to keep ghastly claws in its current state (terrible damage for the channel time).

In a pvp match forcing a foe to dodge at over 600 range from a weapon skill is something you can use to your advantage though. You know by defalt people only get 2 dodges and if the blow one at 700-900 range thats kinda a big deal that is if you pay attention to that sort of thing

That would be true….if it wasn’t also for the fact the 2 gives us LF….than again you do have focus 4. If that was faster on the draw then it’d be good.

My reaction to that is that…
Most people in pvp run soul marks over unyeilding blast these days (if you use a staff). You can force the other dodge by placing marks and you will gain life force regardless if they land or not as long as they get set off. From there you can go into DS for a few seconds maybe get a fear or dark path off and then by this time you may be able to swap back to axe and try again.

Im quite surprised focus 4 didn’t get changed I don’t have an issue with the cast time but i do with the projectile speed and reliability. If every bouncing skill acted like with the reliability of mesmers mirror blade no one would ever have to complain about them. But focus 4 is only great if you can get it off up close and personal (not ideal though).

silvermember.8941:

Lily.1935:

the axe’s problem was never its range. It was its lack of useful abilities that hindered it. Even with 900 range on the first two attacks unholy feast is still 600 range. Arguably its most useful skills is still stuck in that range and this also causes another problem since the axe can’t keep people from running away from you when they’re beyond that 600 range. So, in my opinion the range buff was absolutely pointless.

I still see no reason to take this over the staff. Even with its vulnerability and boon corruption it wasn’t very good and you couldn’t justify taking it.

If I was to make some changes I’d play more into that corruption theme and probably have its damage scale up the closer you are to foes as opposed to the further away you are.

Actually, range was also a problem. I hope you do realize they can be more than 1 problem with a weapon.

The axe has a niche and that niche is are bosses like taco that makes being in range a problem. It might not be the best weapon we have, but it is an improvement and it can be improved.

Being overly melodramatic does not get results.

life blast does about the same damage at 1,200 range as axe does. It wasn’t a problem. We honestly didn’t need another long ranged weapon and the range was never a problem because of how death shroud functioned. And we always had access to death shroud so no, I have to disagree. It wasn’t a problem.

Brujeria.7536:

Well i think the problem isnt axe 1 anymore, but more axe 2. Axe2 currently only does DPS and generate lifeforce. IT isnt interesting enough for a DPS weapon, lifeforce is only our class mechanic resource, so compared to other classes this skill does nothing “on its own” for a power / burst weapon.

Maybe the damage per condition should go here instead of on the scepter where it was previously removed even if its only 1% per condition? ._.

Axe lacks an identity it’s just a “settle down” weapon more than staff actually. A decent decreased cast time or an additional hit on AA,decreasing Ghastly Claws’s CD to 6 or 6 1/2 sec and making Unholy Feast corrupt 2 boons would give it this debuffing and burst-ish style, I understand it’s unique attack pattern but it is still single target and has to compete with staff(Soul Marks) OH dagger and focus are meh but the range increase is still appreciated. Spiteful Spirit seems bugged btw.

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

As for the animation on axe 1, it was changed because of an exploit with cancel casting that allowed players to get significantly more damage from the skill by continually canceling it. At the time I tried to just adjust the original animation so we could keep it but due to its construction that ended up not being feasible. The resulting animation looked extremely choppy and didn’t sync well across races. You are always welcome to make suggestions on alternate animations you’d like to see, but going back to the original animation at this point is extremely unlikely.

These sound like PvP exclusive issues. I see no reason that Axe can’t be brought up to normal DPS numbers in PvE.

If this game has any chance of being a serious raiding game then you will need to start balancing around raids and PvE.

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

As for the animation on axe 1, it was changed because of an exploit with cancel casting that allowed players to get significantly more damage from the skill by continually canceling it. At the time I tried to just adjust the original animation so we could keep it but due to its construction that ended up not being feasible. The resulting animation looked extremely choppy and didn’t sync well across races. You are always welcome to make suggestions on alternate animations you’d like to see, but going back to the original animation at this point is extremely unlikely.

So PvE necromancers are being made arbitrarily noncompetitive on their weapons compared to others for the sake of PvP balance.

Please split the balancing.

Moreover, you listed the positives of an attack that tracks and is not a projectile.

By the same token, necromancer axe autoattack cannot function as a projectile finisher, cannot pierce, cannot cleave.

Axe #2 is a weaker rapid fire that doesn’t stack vulnerability.

I am so sick and tired of this class being excluded from optimal PvE groups and now raids because of PvP holding them back.

It’s been 3 years of “READ: WAR/ELE/ELE/GUARDIAN/THIEF, NO NECRO OR RANGER”

on the LFG. When will PvE class parity and performance stop taking a backseat to PvP considerations?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Well, the wiki isn’t updated yet.

Currently the axe does 238 damage every 0.95 seconds. With a 10% buff, this amounts to 262 per hit, or 267 DPS. At 2 × 7 vulnerability per hit, this comes to 14.7 stacks of vulnerability sustained.

Life Blast does 345 damage within 600 range, and hits every 1.4 seconds. This comes to about 246 DPS. With unyielding blast, this comes to 14.3 stacks of vulnerability sustained.

This is… interesting. Rending claws now does more damage than life blast at any range. Unyielding Blast pierces, but Rending Claws basically bypasses any defense that isn’t a straight up block.

If anything, I’d say that axe is actually a decent weapon now.

I agree. I’ve never found axe to be a terrible weapon per-se but getting the range increase definitely helps a lot and the damage buff will make a big difference too. People get way too stuck on the raw damage numbers and fail completely when it comes to understanding the actual mechanics of the axe itself. Reflects have no affect on it, you can’t hide behind clones or summons, and the longer it hits you the more potential damage your enemy can take (with vuln stacking). Other than scepter auto I don’t know of any other ranged weapon that can completely ignore positioning like this and I’ve run into many occasions where this played heavily into my favor. This is speaking purely from a pvp/wvw perspective of course. I know why the pve people whine about the damage numbers. Right now highest damage is best damage to that game mode.

Raziel.8072:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Well, the wiki isn’t updated yet.

Currently the axe does 238 damage every 0.95 seconds. With a 10% buff, this amounts to 262 per hit, or 267 DPS. At 2 × 7 vulnerability per hit, this comes to 14.7 stacks of vulnerability sustained.

Life Blast does 345 damage within 600 range, and hits every 1.4 seconds. This comes to about 246 DPS. With unyielding blast, this comes to 14.3 stacks of vulnerability sustained.

This is… interesting. Rending claws now does more damage than life blast at any range. Unyielding Blast pierces, but Rending Claws basically bypasses any defense that isn’t a straight up block.

If anything, I’d say that axe is actually a decent weapon now.

I agree. I’ve never found axe to be a terrible weapon per-se but getting the range increase definitely helps a lot and the damage buff will make a big difference too. People get way too stuck on the raw damage numbers and fail completely when it come sto understanding the actual mechanics of the axe itself. Reflects have no affect on it, you can’t hide behind clones or summons, and the longer it hits you the more potential damage you can take (with vuln stacking). Other than scepter auto I don’t know of any other ranged weapon that can completely ignore positioning like this and I’ve run into many occasions where this played heavily into my favor. This is speaking purely from a pvp/wvw perspective of course. I know why the pve people whine about the damage numbers. Right now highest damage is best damage to that game mode.

It’s not “for now” in PvE.

Unless you design most mobs to carry high uptimes of reflect, the axe will be an inferior weapon in PvE by far.

I mean, this is ludicrous. A staff elementalist is chucking fireballs for 6k damage on top of 5k lava font ticks and both of them hit THREE TARGETS, and yet our SINGLE TARGET axe autoattack is an issue?

You people are living in some fantasy land if you think they will ever design mobs that make projectiles weak so axe/mesmer greatsword can shine in encounters. That would involve making mobs that make rifle/pistol/staff/longbow/shortbow/hammer for thief/warrior/ele/ranger/revenant weaker just to benefit two classes who have lower DPS weapons.

Stop sabotaging our PvE with PvP.

I get it, it would be strong in pvp if %up was too high, but its useless in pve simple since its simple fix it. So that not simple right well don’t do it then and we will all carry on complaining for years to come that’s simple too XD

ZDragon.3046:

Brujeria.7536:

Well i think the problem isnt axe 1 anymore, but more axe 2. Axe2 currently only does DPS and generate lifeforce. IT isnt interesting enough for a DPS weapon, lifeforce is only our class mechanic resource, so compared to other classes this skill does nothing “on its own” for a power / burst weapon.

Maybe the damage per condition should go here instead of on the scepter where it was previously removed even if its only 1% per condition? ._.

Yeah it either needs an even higher base damage, compared to lets say rapidfire. We have the unique way of hitting a target, but a 1500 @@range + bonus for arc attacks is much better. The weapon needs something flavourfull to improve the power burst aspect. Axe 3 for example, could always remove protection first, and corrupt the boon always into stacks of vulnerability. Axe 2 could provide might or extend the duration of vulnerability currently on the target by a small amount.

Zenith.7301:

It’s not “for now” in PvE.

Unless you design most mobs to carry high uptimes of reflect, the axe will be an inferior weapon in PvE by far.

I mean, this is ludicrous. A staff elementalist is chucking fireballs for 6k damage on top of 5k lava font ticks and both of them hit THREE TARGETS, and yet our SINGLE TARGET axe autoattack is an issue?

You people are living in some fantasy land if you think they will ever design mobs that make projectiles weak so axe/mesmer greatsword can shine in encounters. That would involve making mobs that make rifle/pistol/staff/longbow/shortbow/hammer for thief/warrior/ele/ranger/revenant weaker just to benefit two classes who have lower DPS weapons.

Stop sabotaging our PvE with PvP.

If you want cleave, use wells, or epi for a condi build. That’s how the class was designed. Axe is a strong single target weapon, that is how it is deigned. There’s nothing wrong with that. If you find yourself in a situation that needs more cleave…use something else. Being stagnant in your builds is what is holding you back, not the weapon. And please don’t use the tired excuse of “wells are dark fields, no one wants dark fields”…I have yet to run into a team setup in pve where that was a problem because I simply was not a spambot. The whole team coordinated ahead of time and everyone knew what to watch for and when to put out fields. Fire goes first, then dark…not rocket science. And yes those are with pugs. If your pug can’t be bothered to coordinate ahead of time you prob need to find another one anyway

For the aanimation, a bigger swing with the hands to make it feel more impactful over the current gentle fly swaping.
I also have to mention that while the old animation was exploitable to cancel casting, it was also too hard to reliably use without unallowed macros effectively rooting your wasd keys.
And theres still another weapon where cancel casting is a meta viable tactic on the loose

For the strength of axe in pvp,
I dont think it will be go4 meta, but i may run it in some AG cup.
Its still semi reliable with its lifeforce and like someone already said
Mirror blade >>>> reapers touch focus #4 in terms of reliability, also huge aftercast for an offensive weapon that works best in a facing melee burst

Will see how it works out when i get to test it.
The main idea would be for axe to take over staff for the ranged set, a/d has transfer but no lifeforce and dmg, a/f depends on luck but has lofeforce and dmg but no cleanse so its hard to be defensive set
And on reaper gs lifeforce is also unreliable and no cleanses….the lf reliability of d/wh and staff is hard to beat

Edit:
I dont need unblockable effect like mirror blade, just reliable homing bounces with no excessive casts or aftercasts

I really don’t mind how the damage is right now seeing how the attack works, but I’d really like some more utility on it. Could we not have Axe 2 be a whirl finisher at its target, and Axe 3 be a blast finisher? That would really add some awesome utility and combo options for this weapon.

As for the auto attack, this just feels horrible and looks horrible and it really ruins the feel of the weapon for me. Could we have something with more of an impact? Maybe you could re-use or modify an already existing animation? Warrior axe 2 maybe, or 3rd attack in warrior or guardian mace auto chain… or even a modified generic swing, like guard scepter auto?

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

As for the animation on axe 1, it was changed because of an exploit with cancel casting that allowed players to get significantly more damage from the skill by continually canceling it. At the time I tried to just adjust the original animation so we could keep it but due to its construction that ended up not being feasible. The resulting animation looked extremely choppy and didn’t sync well across races. You are always welcome to make suggestions on alternate animations you’d like to see, but going back to the original animation at this point is extremely unlikely.

Thank you for your reply. I bet Axe 1 will be useful in pvp, but in pve I have some doubts still about using it over staff.

In terms of animations, could you fix axe 3 for charrs? My charr necro actually uses his off hand weapon instead of axe.

Robert Gee.9246:

One of the reasons we are more conservative about axe when it comes to balance is because axe uses a unique attack action in our game that cannot be avoided using positioning. Normal melee attacks have an attack arc and normal ranged attacks use projectiles. Enemy players can use positioning and movement to avoid these attacks. Axe 1 and 2 by contrast just hit you when you are in range regardless of your positioning. While some utility skills (like Corrupt Boon) also use this targeting method, it’s rare on weapon skills and thus we are wary of buffing it too much.

Mesmer Greatsword #1 (also line AoE)
Ele Scepter Fire #1
Ele Scepter Air #1 (also line AoE)
Arguably Guardian Staff #1 (also massive AoE)
Mesmer Sword #3
Mesmer Scepter #3 (again line AoE)
Every single mesmer phantasm summon…

There are quite a few using the same, and basically all of them are better on multiple points compared to necro axe #1 and #2. Axe 3 is in a fairly good position now.