Guild Wars 2

Axe range 900? That’s it? That’s the big axe fix? Wow it’s literally nothing

MethaneGas.8357:

Holy kitten….

This will buff condi Necros…… A LOT. Scepter is already pretty decent (or at least it used to be) when you chained the auto attack… with the additional bleed (which will scale from stuff like Krait Runes and Barber Precision)… the DPS should be quite nice. And then the Torment…
Krait Runes + Torment Sigil + Tainted Shackles + Feast of Corruption… 12 Torment…. here I come

Corruptive Poison Cloud will be really nice now too, especially on Reaper… I managed to get 22 Poison stacks when using it on Reaper and spin-to-win. At least some good news after seeing Druid…

I already used the spin-to-win in the staff poison field. But that will still be very useful especially since reaper being more melee, a projectile destruction will be a potentially amazing bonus!

Tobias.8632:

Axe range 900? That’s it? That’s the big axe fix? Wow it’s literally nothing

They haven’t announced everything, there maybe something more for the axe. Also they can’t fix all the necro in one patch!

I don’t understand why any profession should be able to press a single button and completely delete an entire build’s setup, putting it on full CD without any traits taking effect. How is this even a discussion? If Moa morph put every utility for every build not only on full CD but also erasing their effects from the game the instant it lands the skill would be completely broken and no one would debate this change, yet against AI builds this is worth a discussion? Furthermore, this was a known function that was then added onto Engineer in AoE form.

It makes absolutely no sense, and I guarantee if this wasn’t AI builds we wouldn’t even have to talk about it.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

The change in lingering curse only decrease condi necro’s bleed by 30-15% tbh, since the same traitline already increase bleed duration by 20% and condi necro generally run nightmare for 15% condi duration and fear damage. Even more negligible in WvW/PvE situations due to food but power dominated there anyway.

Lingering Curse affects the base duration of the Scepter conditions, meaning condition duration works off of the new value.

For example, on live, the 5 second base Bleeds we currently have on Scepter become 10 second base Bleeds . But now is when bleed duration gets applied, so with Lingering Curse, you currently get 14 second bleeds on the auto.

This will get nerfed kinda kitten duration, but maybe the extra bleed stack will make up for it.

It just makes up for it. Auto attack will see a quicker ramp up but the exact same peak dps. Probably better for PvP, really no change for PvE. We get the torment now which is great.

I’m hoping that there are more changes they aren’t telling us because scepter dps is just soooo far behind top tier dps that I can’t see how they would just leave it like that.

MethaneGas.8357:

Holy kitten….

This will buff condi Necros…… A LOT. Scepter is already pretty decent (or at least it used to be) when you chained the auto attack… with the additional bleed (which will scale from stuff like Krait Runes and Barber Precision)… the DPS should be quite nice. And then the Torment…
Krait Runes + Torment Sigil + Tainted Shackles + Feast of Corruption… 12 Torment…. here I come

Corruptive Poison Cloud will be really nice now too, especially on Reaper… I managed to get 22 Poison stacks when using it on Reaper and spin-to-win. At least some good news after seeing Druid…

x12 torment… and inflict a fear with the trait “terror” (fear doing dps) = op, but then you add the reaper specialization, when you inflict fear, also inflict chill, but chill with the trait “deathly chill” doing dps (more dps with enemy 50% life o less) = more more op, and finally, you use epidemic and makes aoe.

i knew this class was gonna get buffed

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t understand why any profession should be able to press a single button and completely delete an entire build’s setup, putting it on full CD without any traits taking effect. How is this even a discussion? If Moa morph put every utility for every build not only on full CD but also erasing their effects from the game the instant it lands the skill would be completely broken and no one would debate this change, yet against AI builds this is worth a discussion? Furthermore, this was a known function that was then added onto Engineer in AoE form.

It makes absolutely no sense, and I guarantee if this wasn’t AI builds we wouldn’t even have to talk about it.

I think what should happen ideally is that your minions disappear during the moa (because moa IS supposed to disable you completely) but reappear when the skill is over. Now I doubt that will happen, but this is exactly how it should be.

Well i’m not too happy about the nerf to lingering curse, feel like maybe it could affect all conditions now, or just when we have scepter equipped but am happy about the axe changes…and that CPC buff…..

King Noob IV.3560:

i knew this class was gonna get buffed

They told us like a month ago we would be buffed.

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

MethaneGas.8357:

Holy kitten….

This will buff condi Necros…… A LOT. Scepter is already pretty decent (or at least it used to be) when you chained the auto attack… with the additional bleed (which will scale from stuff like Krait Runes and Barber Precision)… the DPS should be quite nice. And then the Torment…
Krait Runes + Torment Sigil + Tainted Shackles + Feast of Corruption… 12 Torment…. here I come

Corruptive Poison Cloud will be really nice now too, especially on Reaper… I managed to get 22 Poison stacks when using it on Reaper and spin-to-win. At least some good news after seeing Druid…

x12 torment… and inflict a fear with the trait “terror” (fear doing dps) = op, but then you add the reaper specialization, when you inflict fear, also inflict chill, but chill with the trait “deathly chill” doing dps (more dps with enemy 50% life o less) = more more op, and finally, you use epidemic and makes aoe.

OP is a bit of a stretch…

12x torment + terror + deathly chill (assuming 1800 condi damage)=

1900 torment ticks (while moving) + 720 terror ticks + ~700 chill ticks (below 50%)

= 3300 dps, over a max of 2s fear = 6600 damage that can be cleansed. It’s pretty good, but when the meta builds can burst you for 25k in 1.5 seconds I wouldn’t say it is OP by a long shot. If they stun break or have stab, or are imobed, or just not moving then that drops down to ~2300 dps or less, lower than some classes auto attacks.

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t understand why any profession should be able to press a single button and completely delete an entire build’s setup, putting it on full CD without any traits taking effect. How is this even a discussion? If Moa morph put every utility for every build not only on full CD but also erasing their effects from the game the instant it lands the skill would be completely broken and no one would debate this change, yet against AI builds this is worth a discussion? Furthermore, this was a known function that was then added onto Engineer in AoE form.

It makes absolutely no sense, and I guarantee if this wasn’t AI builds we wouldn’t even have to talk about it.

I have to agree. It was too oppressive BEFORE they added yet another class recently with the ability to MOA and ruin all your related utilities/traits with ONE BUTTON.

It was absurd at DAY 1 of the game, but for 3+years, MM Necros had to deal with this ridiculousness and also deal with pathetic AI for minions too.

Now, they finally see the obvious problem with transformations wiping out an entire build, but they only fix elites which aren’t even used by a MM…smh

The excuse given for the change not affecting other transforms doesn’t make sense. Even the presenters on the Twitch thought the change would obviously impact MOA. Who makes this change and ONLY applies it to elites not used by a MM???

meow one twenty.4376:

King Noob IV.3560:

i knew this class was gonna get buffed

They told us like a month ago we would be buffed.

sure they did

King Noob IV.3560:

meow one twenty.4376:

King Noob IV.3560:

i knew this class was gonna get buffed

They told us like a month ago we would be buffed.

sure they did

Uh Robert Gee specifically said he was looking into Axe and Scepter like a month ago on a Reaper thread…

TheLastNobody.8319:

Well i’m not too happy about the nerf to lingering curse, feel like maybe it could affect all conditions now, or just when we have scepter equipped but am happy about the axe changes…and that CPC buff…..

It does affect all conditions. Lingering curse is now 50% but it affects all conditions the necromancer inflicts.

If anyone’s curious to see how the Lingering Curse nerf and bleed duration nerf affect us, the answer is that they don’t. The weapon got pure, unarguable buffs.

I did all this math without taking into account condition duration buffs that aren’t Lingering Curse, since those would result in the same percent bonus pre- and post-patch, but make the math a little less convenient.

On live, out scepter auto has two 5 second bleeds in one chain. Lingering curse bumps those up to 10 seconds. After this change, the auto chain will give three 4.5 second bleeds, which Lingering Curse bumps up to 6.75 seconds.

2×10 = 20 ticks of bleed from one auto chain
3 × 6.75 = 20.25 ticks of bleed from one auto chain.

So looking at nothing but bleed dps, the change compared to live is an unnoticeably small buff, which I’ll consider to be exactly the same as live, but with a 33% shorter ramp-up time. The poison duration buff results in 1 additional tick of poison damage, after taking into account the lingering curse nerf. And the torment is just pure buff goodness.

Scepter will remain a slow-ramping weapon with decent max dps, but now it will ramp a bit faster, and can also have brief spikes of buttloads of torment.

Warscythes.9307:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Well i’m not too happy about the nerf to lingering curse, feel like maybe it could affect all conditions now, or just when we have scepter equipped but am happy about the axe changes…and that CPC buff…..

It does affect all conditions. Lingering curse is now 50% but it affects all conditions the necromancer inflicts.

Wait what? So….let’s say I have scepter and dagger equipped, will lingering curse affect the conditions applied by dagger 5 and 4? Or would it also affect say…staff? I’m sorry but the details are important to me and the happiness I am feeling right now can cause me to misinterpret something….kitten emotions…

Silverkey.2078:

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t understand why any profession should be able to press a single button and completely delete an entire build’s setup, putting it on full CD without any traits taking effect. How is this even a discussion? If Moa morph put every utility for every build not only on full CD but also erasing their effects from the game the instant it lands the skill would be completely broken and no one would debate this change, yet against AI builds this is worth a discussion? Furthermore, this was a known function that was then added onto Engineer in AoE form.

It makes absolutely no sense, and I guarantee if this wasn’t AI builds we wouldn’t even have to talk about it.

I think what should happen ideally is that your minions disappear during the moa (because moa IS supposed to disable you completely) but reappear when the skill is over. Now I doubt that will happen, but this is exactly how it should be.

This would be ideal. But I doubt it will ever be implemented. I don’t think it’s technically impossible for them to do it; but I do think they don’t want to invest so much resources in just fixing this one single thing.

Frankly the fact I can’t have my minions when I get transformed; fine, I can understand that more or less. But the fact that they ALL go on cooldown for 20-60 seconds is just unacceptable. It’s a major anti-fun factor, and I don’t see what balance has to do with that at all. (I’m talking specifically about the cooldown part here !). There is no justifiable argument for not only destroying the minions, but also making the spec unplayable for the next 20-60 seconds.

I know that those werent all the changes but will spectral grasp also get fixed like engies magnetpull?

TheLastNobody.8319:

Warscythes.9307:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Well i’m not too happy about the nerf to lingering curse, feel like maybe it could affect all conditions now, or just when we have scepter equipped but am happy about the axe changes…and that CPC buff…..

It does affect all conditions. Lingering curse is now 50% but it affects all conditions the necromancer inflicts.

Wait what? So….let’s say I have scepter and dagger equipped, will lingering curse affect the conditions applied by dagger 5 and 4? Or would it also affect say…staff? I’m sorry but the details are important to me and the happiness I am feeling right now can cause me to misinterpret something….kitten emotions…

Unless I heard it wrong on the stream then yea. It affects all conditions you apply now based on the stream.

Actually kitten you are confusing me now, I have to go back and check.

Warscythes.9307:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Warscythes.9307:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Well i’m not too happy about the nerf to lingering curse, feel like maybe it could affect all conditions now, or just when we have scepter equipped but am happy about the axe changes…and that CPC buff…..

It does affect all conditions. Lingering curse is now 50% but it affects all conditions the necromancer inflicts.

Wait what? So….let’s say I have scepter and dagger equipped, will lingering curse affect the conditions applied by dagger 5 and 4? Or would it also affect say…staff? I’m sorry but the details are important to me and the happiness I am feeling right now can cause me to misinterpret something….kitten emotions…

Unless I heard it wrong on the stream then yea. It affects all conditions you apply now based on the stream.

Actually kitten you are confusing me now, I have to go back and check.

Curse you me! i swear I’m going to launch us out of a catapult and into the kitten moon!

Is it made of cheese

I don’t know….we’ll need to check on that one.

Silverkey.2078:

• Projectile destruction on corrosive poison cloud! Duration decreased to 8s with pulse every 2s (so more bursty).

DPS is mostly negated unless you want to spend one of your mass condition cleanses/transfers on something other than what you should spend it on: that moment when someone instantly applies 6 lethal conditions onto you with no effort and from range. The contrived flavor on corruption skills bottlenecks their usage in a way that is just a nuisance because it’s better to wait for a player to load you up with conditions to transfer away rather than build them on yourself by using a bunch of corruption skills.

Silverkey.2078:

• axe : range 900
• scepter condi buff, torment on scepter 3 (2 stacks + 1 stack/condition on enemy up to 5)

Direct upgrades are the least creative and interesting ways to “improve the quality of life” of an ability. The playstyle is utterly unchanged and these sort of changes are on par with “reduced rapid fire activation time from kitten to 2.5 s.” I already called this sort of stuff long before. Anet doesn’t do anything but raise and lower numbers. It doesn’t actually generate playstyles or soft counter opportunities.

Silverkey.2078:

• transforms don’t destroy minions

Technically sort of a quality of life change, but mostly again just a direct upgrade. Nothing really to consider aside from how MMs can now take plague, lich or rune of “I’m going to artificially extent combat by 3 seconds because of passive procs” without losing the minion cloud.

1.5/10. It’s pretty much nothing, but it’s exactly what was to be expected.

Silverkey.2078:

I think what should happen ideally is that your minions disappear during the moa (because moa IS supposed to disable you completely) but reappear when the skill is over. Now I doubt that will happen, but this is exactly how it should be.

This would be the best. Otherwise not only does the skill CC you for 10 seconds, but effectively CCs you for up to 22 seconds when you factor in 6 seconds to summon minions, 10 seconds in Moa, and 6 seconds to resummon afterwards.

Robert Gee.9246:

ronpierce.2760:

What about moa form?

Moa specifically will still destroy them. When we decided on these changes we felt that the behavior of Moa vs pets was one that needed more discussion. We didn’t feel comfortable changing this behavior for this patch as it affects more classes than just necromancer.

Lich and Plague form was more of a clear cut issue of “hey, let’s not punish minion masters for pressing their elite”.

Considering only engineer and mesmer can Moa you, and that this particular interaction only exists in PvP, AND that it is the hardest counter to a build in the game, I think it’s pretty obvious it’s an issue. Especially since it means Moa counters every necromancer elite because of this.

Erasmus.1624:

Silverkey.2078:

• Projectile destruction on corrosive poison cloud! Duration decreased to 8s with pulse every 2s (so more bursty).

DPS is mostly negated unless you want to spend one of your mass condition cleanses/transfers on something other than what you should spend it on: that moment when someone instantly applies 6 lethal conditions onto you with no effort and from range. The contrived flavor on corruption skills bottlenecks their usage in a way that is just a nuisance because it’s better to wait for a player to load you up with conditions to transfer away rather than build them on yourself by using a bunch of corruption skills.

Silverkey.2078:

• axe : range 900
• scepter condi buff, torment on scepter 3 (2 stacks + 1 stack/condition on enemy up to 5)

Direct upgrades are the least creative and interesting ways to “improve the quality of life” of an ability. The playstyle is utterly unchanged and these sort of changes are on par with “reduced rapid fire activation time from kitten to 2.5 s.” I already called this sort of stuff long before. Anet doesn’t do anything but raise and lower numbers. It doesn’t actually generate playstyles or soft counter opportunities.

Silverkey.2078:

• transforms don’t destroy minions

Technically sort of a quality of life change, but mostly again just a direct upgrade. Nothing really to consider aside from how MMs can now take plague, lich or rune of “I’m going to artificially extent combat by 3 seconds because of passive procs” without losing the minion cloud.

1.5/10. It’s pretty much nothing, but it’s exactly what was to be expected.

I suppose bumping Scepter 3 from 0 torment to 2-7 torment is technically just increasing numbers.

Wow so much negative reactions…

Silverkey.2078:

Silverkey.2078:

• Projectile destruction on corrosive poison cloud! Duration decreased to 8s with pulse every 2s (so more bursty).

DPS is mostly negated unless you want to spend one of your mass condition cleanses/transfers on something other than what you should spend it on: that moment when someone instantly applies 6 lethal conditions onto you with no effort and from range. The contrived flavor on corruption skills bottlenecks their usage in a way that is just a nuisance because it’s better to wait for a player to load you up with conditions to transfer away rather than build them on yourself by using a bunch of corruption skills.

If you use a condi build, weakness is not as bad. Otherwise, yes, corruptions are not perfect. I would love either more conditions (that is worth transferring) or less (that does not handicap you). But you cannot deny that this is a buff and an interesting one too!

Silverkey.2078:

• axe : range 900
• scepter condi buff, torment on scepter 3 (2 stacks + 1 stack/condition on enemy up to 5)

Direct upgrades are the least creative and interesting ways to “improve the quality of life” of an ability. The playstyle is utterly unchanged and these sort of changes are on par with “reduced rapid fire activation time from kitten to 2.5 s.” I already called this sort of stuff long before. Anet doesn’t do anything but raise and lower numbers. It doesn’t actually generate playstyles or soft counter opportunities.

Silverkey.2078:

• transforms don’t destroy minions

Technically sort of a quality of life change, but mostly again just a direct upgrade. Nothing really to consider aside from how MMs can now take plague, lich or rune of “I’m going to artificially extent combat by 3 seconds because of passive procs” without losing the minion cloud.

1.5/10. It’s pretty much nothing, but it’s exactly what was to be expected.

Scepter and axe are not bad. They were just lacking a kick. Scepter seems to be getting just that. We don’t know yet all the changes, but this is getting in the right direction.

In case you haven’t noticed, the devs recently worked on an elite spec. In terms of creative changes, I think we got something to look forward to! Also, this confirms they do listen to the forum: most of the changes (the projectile destruction on CPC, the torment on scepter 3, etc…) are changes we specifically ask for.

So instead of being negative, wait for tuesday, see the full extent of the changes, and then try it in game. If you still have complains, then present some constructive feedback!

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

MethaneGas.8357:

Holy kitten….

This will buff condi Necros…… A LOT. Scepter is already pretty decent (or at least it used to be) when you chained the auto attack… with the additional bleed (which will scale from stuff like Krait Runes and Barber Precision)… the DPS should be quite nice. And then the Torment…
Krait Runes + Torment Sigil + Tainted Shackles + Feast of Corruption… 12 Torment…. here I come

Corruptive Poison Cloud will be really nice now too, especially on Reaper… I managed to get 22 Poison stacks when using it on Reaper and spin-to-win. At least some good news after seeing Druid…

x12 torment… and inflict a fear with the trait “terror” (fear doing dps) = op, but then you add the reaper specialization, when you inflict fear, also inflict chill, but chill with the trait “deathly chill” doing dps (more dps with enemy 50% life o less) = more more op, and finally, you use epidemic and makes aoe.

OP is a bit of a stretch…

12x torment + terror + deathly chill (assuming 1800 condi damage)=

1900 torment ticks (while moving) + 720 terror ticks + ~700 chill ticks (below 50%)

= 3300 dps, over a max of 2s fear = 6600 damage that can be cleansed. It’s pretty good, but when the meta builds can burst you for 25k in 1.5 seconds I wouldn’t say it is OP by a long shot. If they stun break or have stab, or are imobed, or just not moving then that drops down to ~2300 dps or less, lower than some classes auto attacks.

I tell you that is very op, if it now is already very strong accumulation condition fear + burn + x1 torment (sigil torment) + poison + bleed in pvp… i do not want to imagine what would be after the update, adding x7 torment are going to notice much difference.

It is very simple to understand to know what’s op, use signet of spite ( x6 condition different) + feast of corruption (x 7 torment) + fear (fear inflict chill dps with specialization reaper) = op

The torment condition is very strong if you’re moving, and fear is a control condition, inflict x7 torment suddenly easily each 10 second is op… It should be reduced 2-3 torment and gaining life force for each condition on them.

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

I tell you that is very op, if it now is already very strong accumulation condition fear + burn + x1 torment (sigil torment) + poison + bleed in pvp… i do not want to imagine what would be after the update, adding x7 torment are going to notice much difference.

It is very simple to understand to know what’s op, use signet of spite ( x6 condition different) + feast of corruption (x 7 torment) + fear (fear inflict chill dps with specialization reaper) = op

The torment condition is very strong if you’re moving, and fear is a control condition, inflict x7 torment suddenly easily each 10 second is op… It should be reduced 2-3 torment and gaining life force for each condition on them.

Let’s see how it is before calling anything OP. Currently, it is obvious that condi necro is underwhelming. And the scepter needed a buff. Torment is not an amazing condition in terms of damage + they didn’t say how long the torment will last.

Now, I doubt condi necro will be OP. At best competitive. Maybe a concern could be condi reaper, because in the last beta, the reaper shroud in condi build was a beast! The only problem was the lack of condi out of shroud, which will now be fixed in great part. But even that seems fine to me, especially because having the reaper line means you get only 2 more lines. SR is mandatory for Dhuumfire, and if you want terror, you’re locked into curse. I personally thought condi Reaper worked better with spite, so … we’ll see!

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

MethaneGas.8357:

Holy kitten….

This will buff condi Necros…… A LOT. Scepter is already pretty decent (or at least it used to be) when you chained the auto attack… with the additional bleed (which will scale from stuff like Krait Runes and Barber Precision)… the DPS should be quite nice. And then the Torment…
Krait Runes + Torment Sigil + Tainted Shackles + Feast of Corruption… 12 Torment…. here I come

Corruptive Poison Cloud will be really nice now too, especially on Reaper… I managed to get 22 Poison stacks when using it on Reaper and spin-to-win. At least some good news after seeing Druid…

x12 torment… and inflict a fear with the trait “terror” (fear doing dps) = op, but then you add the reaper specialization, when you inflict fear, also inflict chill, but chill with the trait “deathly chill” doing dps (more dps with enemy 50% life o less) = more more op, and finally, you use epidemic and makes aoe.

OP is a bit of a stretch…

12x torment + terror + deathly chill (assuming 1800 condi damage)=

1900 torment ticks (while moving) + 720 terror ticks + ~700 chill ticks (below 50%)

= 3300 dps, over a max of 2s fear = 6600 damage that can be cleansed. It’s pretty good, but when the meta builds can burst you for 25k in 1.5 seconds I wouldn’t say it is OP by a long shot. If they stun break or have stab, or are imobed, or just not moving then that drops down to ~2300 dps or less, lower than some classes auto attacks.

Actually the damage from Terror is about 1164. Not too much of a difference, but net of 800 damage difference, which would bring the damage to about 7400 over the two second fear. That’s with only the torment, a chill and a fear. There will definitively be more condis on the person, and if they have vulnerability on top of that.. it could be really nice damage. I wouldn’t go so far as to call it overpowered, but it has the potential to be really strong. Only 10 vuln already brings the damage up to 8140 XD
Condi clears are another issue but… yeah…kittendruid.

And I also agree that Moa killing all minions is bullkitten. Even the engi moa kills Wurm lol. I’d love to have an elite skill which disabled another class’s blink/stun break for 32 secs

Silverkey.2078:

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

I tell you that is very op, if it now is already very strong accumulation condition fear + burn + x1 torment (sigil torment) + poison + bleed in pvp… i do not want to imagine what would be after the update, adding x7 torment are going to notice much difference.

It is very simple to understand to know what’s op, use signet of spite ( x6 condition different) + feast of corruption (x 7 torment) + fear (fear inflict chill dps with specialization reaper) = op

The torment condition is very strong if you’re moving, and fear is a control condition, inflict x7 torment suddenly easily each 10 second is op… It should be reduced 2-3 torment and gaining life force for each condition on them.

Let’s see how it is before calling anything OP. Currently, it is obvious that condi necro is underwhelming. And the scepter needed a buff. Torment is not an amazing condition in terms of damage + they didn’t say how long the torment will last.

Now, I doubt condi necro will be OP. At best competitive. Maybe a concern could be condi reaper, because in the last beta, the reaper shroud in condi build was a beast! The only problem was the lack of condi out of shroud, which will now be fixed in great part. But even that seems fine to me, especially because having the reaper line means you get only 2 more lines. SR is mandatory for Dhuumfire, and if you want terror, you’re locked into curse. I personally thought condi Reaper worked better with spite, so … we’ll see!

I tell you it is very op, if with the mesmer inflict many torment along with other conditions (bleed, confusion and burn, but not poison, fear dps and chill dps) is already strong, I do not want to imagine with the condition fear (condition control and dps), it will be the straw that breaks the glass of water, each 10 second inflict x7 torment without relying on the enemy, and in one hit, is op compared with illusionary counter (inflict x5 torment, but It depends on the enemy attack, and it’s easy to dodge, because the enemy discovers), and not only that, but these constantly inflict bleed and poison, then inflict burn and chill DPS (6 dps condition except confusion)…

I repeat, these x7 torment is very op, it should be reduced 2-3 torment and gaining life force for each condition on them. It is like giving a chance mesmer to inflict taunt (in this case taunt not inflict dps, but if you forced to move and attack) an enemy with x12 torment and x8 confusion, would not be op? especially in pvp, then well imagine an enemy with 7x torment forced to move by condition fear and inflicts damage over (with other conditions), is very op.

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

I repeat, these x7 torment is very op, it should be reduced 2-3 torment and gaining life force for each condition on them. It is like giving a chance mesmer to inflict taunt (in this case taunt not inflict dps, but if you forced to move and attack) an enemy with x12 torment and x8 confusion, would not be op? especially in pvp, then well imagine an enemy with 7x torment forced to move by condition fear and inflicts damage over (with other conditions), is very op.

To be fair, Mesmers already do this with confusion and torment. 5 stacks torment from block and 4 stacks from a shatter (9 total), then 10 confusion on top of that (5 from #3 scepter, and 5 from a shatter), or 15 confusion and 13 torment if they do 2 shatters instead of 1. The thing that makes THEM OP is their survivalbility, on top of the damage they put out. Necro doesn’t have the survivalbility of a PU condi Mesmer, but the damage will be similar (I think). So I think calling it overpowered now is way too early. Condi Necros needed another source of a bursty condi… which Feast of Corruption will be. This will be especially true after HoT comes out. Condi clears will be more than abundant.

Condi Necro right now is either really good, or really disappointing (in sPvP). When you face certain classes (like Engis and Warriors) you wreck them easily, but when you face things with lots of condi clears (fire-specced Eles, shout warriors, shout guardians), and when they have AoE cleanse, your damage drops A LOT. The only thing that Torment will change is this: You will wreck those who you usually wrecked, but faster (engis, warriors), and you will at least stand a better chance against all the classes that spam condi clears.

Edit: forgot Mesmer counts as a clone now…

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

Silverkey.2078:

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

I tell you that is very op, if it now is already very strong accumulation condition fear + burn + x1 torment (sigil torment) + poison + bleed in pvp… i do not want to imagine what would be after the update, adding x7 torment are going to notice much difference.

It is very simple to understand to know what’s op, use signet of spite ( x6 condition different) + feast of corruption (x 7 torment) + fear (fear inflict chill dps with specialization reaper) = op

The torment condition is very strong if you’re moving, and fear is a control condition, inflict x7 torment suddenly easily each 10 second is op… It should be reduced 2-3 torment and gaining life force for each condition on them.

Let’s see how it is before calling anything OP. Currently, it is obvious that condi necro is underwhelming. And the scepter needed a buff. Torment is not an amazing condition in terms of damage + they didn’t say how long the torment will last.

Now, I doubt condi necro will be OP. At best competitive. Maybe a concern could be condi reaper, because in the last beta, the reaper shroud in condi build was a beast! The only problem was the lack of condi out of shroud, which will now be fixed in great part. But even that seems fine to me, especially because having the reaper line means you get only 2 more lines. SR is mandatory for Dhuumfire, and if you want terror, you’re locked into curse. I personally thought condi Reaper worked better with spite, so … we’ll see!

I tell you it is very op, if with the mesmer inflict many torment along with other conditions (bleed, confusion and burn, but not poison, fear dps and chill dps) is already strong, I do not want to imagine with the condition fear (condition control and dps), it will be the straw that breaks the glass of water, each 10 second inflict x7 torment without relying on the enemy, and in one hit, is op compared with illusionary counter (inflict x5 torment, but It depends on the enemy attack, and it’s easy to dodge, because the enemy discovers), and not only that, but these constantly inflict bleed and poison, then inflict burn and chill DPS (6 dps condition except confusion)…

I repeat, these x7 torment is very op, it should be reduced 2-3 torment and gaining life force for each condition on them. It is like giving a chance mesmer to inflict taunt (in this case taunt not inflict dps, but if you forced to move and attack) an enemy with x12 torment and x8 confusion, would not be op? especially in pvp, then well imagine an enemy with 7x torment forced to move by condition fear and inflicts damage over (with other conditions), is very op.

I think it will definitely beat up low health builds with low condi cleanse. Signet of Spite + Scepter #3 will absolutely tear apart current Mesmer builds. Or better yet, prime it with Tainted Shackles.

This gives Necros powerful condi presence without throwing Burn out like the other classes.

Robert Gee.9246:

Warcry.1596:

We keep our minions when transformed!!!

I want to quickly clarify something about this note. The change is that specifically Plague form and Lich form will not destroy your minions. We can’t do this universally for all transforms because it can cause problems with the balance of events or story steps that transform you.

Not “universal” is fine. There is one and only one we all want to not pop our buddies:

MOA must GO-A

That’s it for axe? I thought the big rework would be more grand than just a range increase though….

Scepter changes are nice and all but lifeforce generation on it could use a change

Thank you very much though for the CPC change! Necromancer really needed some utility

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

That’s it for axe? I thought the big rework would be more grand than just a range increase though….

I get the feeling there’s more changes in store for axe & scepter both, they were really rushed for time with this balance preview so they didn’t even get to elaborate much on the few changes they did choose to share.

Finally axe gets its range increase. Now can we get back the old animation for axe auto attack, plz gee? <3 . Inb4 someone tells me the auto is still bad. I know, but it’s hideous too.

Torment won’t make scepter any better in PvE.

Necromancer will still be one of the worst PvE condi specs alongside mesmer until they shift some of the damage away from burning and into bleeding/torment/confusion.

Torment and Confusion are especially bad in PvE. Both do even less tic damage than the abysmal amount bleeding already does relative to burning, and their conditional effects will rarely trigger in PvE to make up the gap in damage they have from bleeding.

Torment and Confusion should have the same DPS as Bleeding, after bleeding is buffed with the damage shaved away from burning.

More importantly, while the engineer just cleaves all his conditions with grenades/bombs on top of his powerful fields and finishers, the necromancer needs epidemic to cleave his conditions and the mesmer doesn’t even have the luxury of epidemic.

MethaneGas.8357:

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

I repeat, these x7 torment is very op, it should be reduced 2-3 torment and gaining life force for each condition on them. It is like giving a chance mesmer to inflict taunt (in this case taunt not inflict dps, but if you forced to move and attack) an enemy with x12 torment and x8 confusion, would not be op? especially in pvp, then well imagine an enemy with 7x torment forced to move by condition fear and inflicts damage over (with other conditions), is very op.

To be fair, Mesmers already do this with confusion and torment. 5 stacks torment from block and 4 stacks from a shatter (9 total), then 10 confusion on top of that (5 from #3 scepter, and 5 from a shatter), or 15 confusion and 13 torment if they do 2 shatters instead of 1. The thing that makes THEM OP is their survivalbility, on top of the damage they put out. Necro doesn’t have the survivalbility of a PU condi Mesmer, but the damage will be similar (I think). So I think calling it overpowered now is way too early. Condi Necros needed another source of a bursty condi… which Feast of Corruption will be. This will be especially true after HoT comes out. Condi clears will be more than abundant.

Condi Necro right now is either really good, or really disappointing (in sPvP). When you face certain classes (like Engis and Warriors) you wreck them easily, but when you face things with lots of condi clears (fire-specced Eles, shout warriors, shout guardians), and when they have AoE cleanse, your damage drops A LOT. The only thing that Torment will change is this: You will wreck those who you usually wrecked, but faster (engis, warriors), and you will at least stand a better chance against all the classes that spam condi clears.

Edit: forgot Mesmer counts as a clone now…

And so, why not inflict bleeding instead of torment, indeed they do not like? because you know that torment automatically take advantage of their extra damage with fear, and with condition bleed you get bored, it is a rather dull condition. The difference with the Mesmer is that you can only maintain confusion and torment limited, but the enemy quickly cleaned (because is only two perma condition), however, the necro can cover perfectly x7 torment, and not only that, but it can take advantage and take better advantage torment with the fear condition, something that cant do mesmer, on the other hand, the necro be thoroughly cleaned conditions, or, return it to its enemies. Truth does not like to inflict x7 bleed?

why not inflict x7 bleed instead of torment? because with x7 torment I do double damage with fear, and with the condition bleed i dont many dps

So far as math is concerned, these ‘buffs’ are barely buffs and come with a heaping side of “Lets make Lingering Curse not worth taking for scepter DPS” even though its commonly accepted as one of the worst condition weapons in the game even with its signature trait.

Current Scepter Auto
Sans Lingering Curse
(((0.06*1200)22)5)(((0.06*1200)22)5)(((0.06*1200)+ 33.5)4)
470+470+422
1362 damage

With Linger Curse at 100%
(((0.06*1200)22)10)(((0.06*1200)22)10)(((0.06*1200)+ 33.5)8)
940+940+844
2724 damage

New Scepter Auto
Sans Lingering Curse
(((0.06*1200)22)4.5)(((0.06*1200)22)4.5)(((0.06*1200)22)4.5)(((0.06*1200)+ 33.5)6)
423+423+423+633
1902 damage

With Lingering Curse at 50%
(((0.06*1200)22)6.75)(((0.06*1200)22)6.75)(((0.06*1200)22)6.75)(((0.06*1200)+ 33.5)9)
634.5+634.5+634.5+949.5
2853 damage

These changes:
A) Make it so the Lingering Curse trait has almost ZERO EFFECT on your auto-attack as compared to what it does now. At 1200 condition damage it is a buff of a mere 129 damage per auto attack chain, note not 129 per attack, but per the entire chain of attacks_carried out over 2.4 seconds. Netting us a roughly 40 damage per second. Woohoo…
B) Scepter is significantly more powerful (50% of original DPS added on to the new untraited) than it currently is WITHOUT Lingering Curses, discouraging traiting for the scepter.

But wait, there’s more!
Our second skill also applies conditions. How is it affected, well let’s see.
Current Grasping Dead
Sans Lingering Curse
(((0.06*1200)22)7)(((0.06*1200)22)7)(((0.06*1200)22)7)
658658+658
1974

With Lingering Curse at 100%
(((0.06*1200)22)14)(((0.06*1200)22)14)(((0.06*1200)22)14)
13161316+1316
3948

New Grasping Dead
Sans Lingering Curse
(((0.06*1200)22)7)(((0.06*1200)22)7)(((0.06*1200)+22)7)
1974

With Lingering Curse at 50%
(((0.06*1200)22)10.5)(((0.06*1200)22)10.5)(((0.06*1200)22)10.5)
987987+987
2961

Oh look, we lost A THOUSAND DAMAGE and 2.5 seconds of cripple. Assuming you use TS at its maximum uptime that means these ‘buffs’ have now cost us a net of 60 damage per second!

But what about the new skills? Torment! APPLY ALL THE TORMENT! Lets assume that Feast of Corruption keeps its ten second CD, the scepter is already significantly buffed for non FoC users so anything this skill gives is just gravy. But for FoC users what would it have to be to be for lingering curses to be worth taking at 50% effectiveness, since it is now the ONLY potential saving grace of this ill conceived fiasco.

We know the amount of torment it applies is going to be seven (giving the benefit of the doubt that you will always have five or more conditions before you light FoC up, haha, yeah right… but anyway) and torment deals ((0.045*CD)+15.9) per stack, doubled while moving, might as well give them that ‘benefit of the doubt’ as well. So assuming ridiculously ideal conditions are filled, depending on the duration they give the seven stacks of torment, with Lingering Curses the skill will deal:

1 second : 1467 total damage : 146 damage per second
2 seconds : 2935 total damage : 293 damage per second
3 seconds : 3914 total damage : 391 damage per second
4 seconds : 4890 total damage : 489 damage per second
5 seconds : 5871 total damage : 587 damage per second
6 seconds : 6850 total damage : 685 damage per second
7 seconds : 7828 total damage : 782 damage per second
8 seconds : 8807 total damage : 880 damage per second
9 seconds: 9786 total damage : 978 damage per second
10 seconds: 14760 total damage : 1476 damage per second

So at what point of scaling does Lingering Curses, our only trait that directly affects the scepter, worth taking for its effect over a single skill? How much DPS? Because whatever it is, it is in reality all we are getting out of these supposed ‘scepter buffs’ so it better be pretty freakin’ impressive.

EDIT: Shutting off auto formatting so it’ll stop screwing with my formulas.
EDIT: Whoops, forgot to add lingering curses 50% duration increase on the final chart.

Sadly they are averse to PTR unlike any other MMO so these undertuned buffs are going live as is. It’s, what, 3 days away from patch day? The build’s locked in.

I also thought the autoattack increases to mesmer were far to small to catch them up to thief/guardian autoattack DPS, let alone revenant.

I can only imagine if they buff ranger sword/greatsword/axe, the weapons with the worst autoattack coefficients in the game (supposedly because of a kitten pet, who actually does 17% or less of the ranger’s total DPS, the pet does not stack crit damage bonus past 70% while the owner exceeds far above that as do other classes, so 17% of the ranger’s damage assuming a jaguar is used is not even scaling at the same level as other berzerkers are).

I don’t know why they refuse to collaborate or ask DnT/rT for their parses of classes to help with class balancing of DPS in PvE, but given that the skill balance preview was done with a PvP personality and under a competitive PvP show host, I’ve got my doubts that they ever intend to balance classes for PvE DPS.

Im very happy with these changes overall. CPC will be a very handy defensive skill now. Axe buffs are in the right direction, still it feels this weapon lacks identity. Scepter buffs seem nice on paper, lets see how this plays out.

Still a few notes:

Why does moa still destroy our minions? This makes no sense at all :/ Either Moa does remove all utility and Elite skill effects that have been pumped out before for ALL classes, or none of them. It feels really really bad to have random skill being the hardcounter to a single build to such an extent :/

I still dont like the scepter trait in general. Its a straight up power buff, improving what scepter does in a simple way. Shouldnt grandmasters have awesome effects on your build, doing something truly unique? Shouldnt weapon traits as well do something fun or different instead of a flat duration buff? See the new Druid Staff trait for example. Or the former riochette trait from thief, bomb kit heal for engie. That are the kinda things that i would at the very least expect from a grandmaster weapon trait.

Axe skillset seems rather boring for skill #1 and 2 still. A little bit vulnerability and lifeforce generation? I mean axe #2 is the same as staff #1, It basicly has no overall effect apart from our class mechanic, it would be something different if every hit generated lifeforce, but these skills provided much more to be considered resource managment, but simply using a bit lifeforce on a skill for flavour isnt really gona cut it. Please give Axe #1 a third hit with another effect, and make Axe #2 do something exciting.

Anyway, these are a very nice step into the right direction, fixing the most crucial skill problems we had.

Next up i hope we get these things looked at:
Wells: Well of Blood, Well of Darkness, Well CDs in general (Compared to overall CDs and effects of Mesmer wells),
Signet of Undeath
Spectral grasp reliability / useability
Corrupt boon base CD.
Focus offhand
Dagger offhand
Staff overall, especially AA
Lich / Plague “rework”, getting some more stuff then one potent spamable skill.
A lot of trait work
Base Lifeforce decay reduced, to remove the absolute need to take vital persistance when planning on using any Shroud centric build.

900 range on axe? thats it? better get back to 600 and work on some damage buff or sth else since range is good as it is…

but I like the idea of blocking projectlies (but well thats what almost every other class already got)

Conncept.7638:

So far as math is concerned . . .

Look, I can admire one’s dedication to analysis, but are we seriously obsessing over the effectiveness of a player mashing 1? Is that the pinnacle of the game? It really feels like it (especially with condition builds). Is this what people had in mind with a rework? Is this what people had in mind when “dynamic gameplay” was the buzzword several years ago? It’s really a shame that “more passive damage” and “longer range for your attacks that are already aimed for you and potentially don’t even have projectiles to mitigate” is the “rework” that devs shove out nowadays.

I just wanted to voice my support for these previewed changes. Are these coming the Tuesday before the beta or after the beta?

Also I still think that axe auto needs a damage increase, although the range increase was a huge buff, and it will work wonders at letting range Melee centric reaper have some actual ranged damage pressure, so for that I am very thankful,

I also believe that Moa shouldn’t kill all minions, simply because it’s one of the reasons why Moa shuts down necromancer a disproportionately more so than any other profession, as it ends DS (the most critical counter fact) and transforms, but I’m glad I can finally run flesh wurm and plague at the some time without gimping myself.

Erasmus.1624:

Conncept.7638:

So far as math is concerned . . .

Look, I can admire one’s dedication to analysis, but are we seriously obsessing over the effectiveness of a player mashing 1? Is that the pinnacle of the game? It really feels like it (especially with condition builds). Is this what people had in mind with a rework? Is this what people had in mind when “dynamic gameplay” was the buzzword several years ago? It’s really a shame that “more passive damage” and “longer range for your attacks that are already aimed for you and potentially don’t even have projectiles to mitigate” is the “rework” that devs shove out nowadays.

If it only impact Scepter he has a point.

Here’s to hoping it’s universal and applies to Dhuumfire, Fear, etc!

Silverkey.2078:

Wow so much negative reactions…
Scepter and axe are not bad. They were just lacking a kick. Scepter seems to be getting just that. We don’t know yet all the changes, but this is getting in the right direction.

“Kick” and “right direction” clearly just mean “higher numbers for my skills” to the majority of the playerbase. The usage of the changed abilities has changed in no way whatsoever except in the case of CPC (and even then, that skill is plagued with its own harshly conflicting conceptual design issues). The update raised numbers to appease a bunch of players who didn’t think that their auto-aimed hitscan damage wasn’t easy enough to hit or effective enough on its own despite the lack of counterplay.

Silverkey.2078:

In case you haven’t noticed, the devs recently worked on an elite spec. In terms of creative changes, I think we got something to look forward to!

Not only have the specializations not honestly introduced any legitimately new mechanic to the game (aside from maybe, maybe the “save state” on Chronomancer f5—which still might just be jerryrigged/cannibalized from an already present mechanic in the game), but I myself have already redone the entire necromancer profession on my own in like a week’s total spare time in a way that gives players more to think about than “How much damage does my 1 skill do?” or “How far do I have to walk in order for all of my attacks to hit a guy with auto-aimed hitscan?”

Silverkey.2078:

Also, this confirms they do listen to the forum: most of the changes (the projectile destruction on CPC, the torment on scepter 3, etc…) are changes we specifically ask for.

CPC’s self-inflicted weakness (and the corruption skills’ forced self-condition gimmick is nothing but a worthless nuisance trying to propagate a contrived sense of flavor) holds the skill back. Corruptions need a rework (something that I already did in a holistic manner taking into consideration all aspects of the class, it’s abilities and how damage should be balanced across all classes in the game) and it’s a petty effort to buff CPC in the way that they did (even though it was a suggested change—and one that I had myself already made in my own suggestions); again just another example of “take skill and slap new mechanic onto it.” It’s about as creative as putting a blast finisher onto a skill and calling it improved and more “team oriented” (which has happened plenty of times already).

Silverkey.2078:

If you still have complains, then present some constructive feedback!

This is constructive. I’m laying the facts about the changes bare: they are shallow and simple; lazy efforts that do nothing but make dealing already easy damage even easier than before the update. Criticisms break down the problems, and then solutions can be proposed afterward. Have a whole bunch of solutions to problematic necromancer design features here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necro-combat-base-heal-support/first

meow one twenty.4376:

Erasmus.1624:

Conncept.7638:

So far as math is concerned . . .

Look, I can admire one’s dedication to analysis, but are we seriously obsessing over the effectiveness of a player mashing 1? Is that the pinnacle of the game? It really feels like it (especially with condition builds). Is this what people had in mind with a rework? Is this what people had in mind when “dynamic gameplay” was the buzzword several years ago? It’s really a shame that “more passive damage” and “longer range for your attacks that are already aimed for you and potentially don’t even have projectiles to mitigate” is the “rework” that devs shove out nowadays.

If it only impact Scepter he has a point.

Here’s to hoping it’s universal and applies to Dhuumfire, Fear, etc!

Even if whatever effect you’re discussing is universal, it’s still just a blanket passive that doesn’t actually change how any skill plays or functions. Everything in this game is just what it says on the tin. There is very, very little creative play outside of the cycle of hard counters and what a tooltip allows one to do. This sort of thread is testament to that design.

Erasmus.1624:

Conncept.7638:

So far as math is concerned . . .

Look, I can admire one’s dedication to analysis, but are we seriously obsessing over the effectiveness of a player mashing 1? Is that the pinnacle of the game? It really feels like it (especially with condition builds). Is this what people had in mind with a rework? Is this what people had in mind when “dynamic gameplay” was the buzzword several years ago? It’s really a shame that “more passive damage” and “longer range for your attacks that are already aimed for you and potentially don’t even have projectiles to mitigate” is the “rework” that devs shove out nowadays.

Well, yeah. You may prefer gimmicks that are hardly ever balanced, but we prefer the hard and practical results.

In PvE, if a class is to ever be considered for a position, it needs to be competitive with the alternatives. Currently, numberswise, they’re not.

Axe still needs damage buff, especially on #1 Plague form andConsume Conditions still need to be reverted to not being corruptions. Plague form CD should be set at 120 baseline.

I still cannot understand the thinking behind CC as a corruption.

The rest looks pretty good. I’m warming to Robert Gee. Especially since he had the sense to totally revamp Siphoned Power.

Still think Reaper should have more in the way of a stun breaker and block.

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t understand why any profession should be able to press a single button and comple

This, they negate the whole build of a profession with this one click. I´ve never understood that, for me it doesn´t have something to do with balancing, it´s just common sense not to do such stupid things. But i guess this is again a case that Anet seems to be so distracted from their own game, that they see some things only through paper and not through gameplay.

mordran.4750:

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t understand why any profession should be able to press a single button and comple

This, they negate the whole build of a profession with this one click. I´ve never understood that, for me it doesn´t have something to do with balancing, it´s just common sense not to do such stupid things. But i guess this is again a case that Anet seems to be so distracted from their own game, that they see some things only through paper and not through gameplay.

Not even that, mesmer also has very easy access to stealth, so to add on this we cant counter stealth, and we also cant counter moa as a MM if the mesmer uses stealth, this makes a already bad mechanic without natural counterplay (stealth) even more overpowered against a single full necromancer build. Its harsh enoug that moa overrides 2 of our 3 elite skills. The same is true to Engineers moa to an extend as well, he also has access to stealth, although not remotely as easy, still his elixir is to hard to see at times, you cant make any difference between his other toolbelt elixir as well.

Thats just outright bad design.