Guild Wars 2

So…I have been playing a power necro in WvW for a while now…and the only class that I have yet to figure out how to beat consistently is the thief…

I was talking to a guild-mate the other day and they were saying that guardians give him the hardest time… I asked why and he couldn’t really recall what it was specifically…

So, I figure I’ll ask the Necro community for tip and ideas on how to beat a thief in WvW…

My setup: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/necromancer/?5.4|6.1n.h2|8.1n.h2.d.1n.h15|1n.7p.1n.7p.1n.7p.1n.7p.1n.7p.1n.7p|41j.0.3u.0.2u.0.31j.0.2u.0.3u.0|u27c.0.k25.k12.0|0.0|3r.3u.40.44.4f|e

Any thoughts on this are also appreciated. I typically don’t have too much trouble beating anything 1v1, those kitten thieves though…give me a run for the money.

I have been dueling thiefs in wvw alot, I have found a build that does ok against them, timing your dodges perfectly is a must unfortunately, ill edit post with the build i use.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/necromancer/?5.4|6.1n.h1l|8.1g.h2.d.1g.h15|1n.a7.1n.a7.1n.a7.1n.a7.1n.a7.1n.a7|2s.0.21j.0.2s.0.31j.0.2s.0.8g.0|a5.0.a2.k52.u3ac|55.1|3r.4b.40.44.4g|e

ok so the main things here,
- 5 sec DS cd so can soak often
- dagger and staff with soul marks for high LF gain to maintain being able to soak often
- you gain retal for going into DS
- with life steal food + traits you have decent life steal
you can maintain decent chill with staff #3 plus chilling on staff swap and DS #2
also WoD is an optional skill to take, you can switch that to whatever you want, but i feel worm + locust is a must atm esp without warhorn for perm swift

edit: reason i use flesh golem is because the knock down is decent but also because lich/plague kill your worm

You don’t have nearly enough burst damage to take a Thief down, before he bursts you down. Stealth Thieves don’t like conditions or AoE, but you don’t have any condition damage at all. So basically, your build isn’t made to take down a Thief. You could try to take Spectral Wall, for increasing your damage reduction, while decreasing the Thief’s defense. And use Signet of Spite to surprise him with a big splash of conditions, which will also make stacking your chill and immobilize easier. A smart Thief will just wait it out though, but it’s worth a try.

I don’t know if this will tip the scale in terms of fighting thieves, but as an advice for fighting anyone really: Take Spiteful Spirit instead of Spiteful Marks.
You have +20% boon duration so you’ll have retaliation for 3,5 seconds. And with the amout of power you have this will do 353 damage for each hit, 379 when you activate Blood is Power.

Also, Signet of the Locust… I don’t get why so many necros have this in combat.

locust is a must atm esp without warhorn for perm swift

This adds no offensive capability, and it certainly doesn’t help against thieves. Whenever I (as a necro) see a necro who has this Signet, I know that I’m going to beat him, because he just wasted a utility. Any other class will just laugh at our +25% movement speed.
So other than for traveling and the healing potential in zerg fights, this Signet is a waste.
You might want to take a well or Corrupt Boon instead.

I solo roam in wvw, the movement speed is a must, i cant just swap on a wim of getting attacked by a thief in stealth, locust is a must have for movement.
If i was to solo duel alone then sure i’ll swap it out, but im not gonna roam with no movement speed

Greater marks, condition build – stealth wut?

Elvahaduken.3609:

I solo roam in wvw, the movement speed is a must, i cant just swap on a wim of getting attacked by a thief in stealth, locust is a must have for movement.
If i was to solo duel alone then sure i’ll swap it out, but im not gonna roam with no movement speed

Activate auto-run, switch to your staff, place your fingers on “5” and “H”, press “H” to open your hero panel, double click your warhorn, press “5” to trigger Locust Swarm, double click your staff in your hero panel, press “H” to close your hero panel, ???, profit! With a bit of map awareness, you can also safely switch out a utility skill.

your getting off point for this thread. builds/tips for killing thiefs

Smart thieves in WvW 1v1 are unstoppable. I try not to reference absolutes, but quite frankly, if build properly, you really cannot kill an exceptional thief that understands his class and has built for sustain.

If we build for sustain, we will hit like a wet-paper-bag, and the thief does not suffer that problem, who can still backstab well over 5K in troll healing/power gear, while be nearly invincible to conditions with stealth removal/regen/healing. Nevermind they can end the fight whenever they want with a shadow refuge.

If you are power, even in zerker, you will not be able to burst him down, and he will make short work of you. In other gear types, the fight lasts longer, but still ends in his favor because of his sustain, that far outstrips ours.

The fight literally comes down to this: How good/bad is the thief? How many other people around can I depend on to come help me? Success in a thief 1v1 is getting them to leave you alone, not kill them. Bad thieves are like bad everything else… they die get stomped and move on… but good thieves don’t have to die in 1v1, and rarely ever do.

WvW is the absolute perfect scenario for the thief playground, and the less people try to come up with builds to counter it, the happier you will be. They are far less effective in larger group fights in those builds, and that tradeoff can at least make you feel better about how unstoppable they are in low numbers.

Only thief build that necro will have trouble with is pistol thief. Otherwise we pretty much counter everything they do. Use DS to survive their initial burst and then you have the fight won. You either kill them or they escape with their tail between their legs, usually the latter.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAW4djMap7FbKb87JApHPfNvTF4G6Ru76MA-jkCBYMRGrBgCEiuAgwAOBqIasVXhtEbIaKbYaYER1A-w

I don’t particularly enjoy playing as a condition-mancer… What about something like the above link? I think it would serve well for fighting most everything out there… and when a thief decides to jump ya, they would be taking damage back every time they hit you.
In looking at the thief ability tree, they have heavy healing…poison is just about the only way to reduce that, that and chill…

The above link is just theory-crafting…I think it would work pretty good against other classes too though…

Thoughts?

I should mention that I bloodlust up and switch weapons afterwards…

flow.6043:

I don’t know if this will tip the scale in terms of fighting thieves, but as an advice for fighting anyone really: Take Spiteful Spirit instead of Spiteful Marks.
You have +20% boon duration so you’ll have retaliation for 3,5 seconds. And with the amout of power you have this will do 353 damage for each hit, 379 when you activate Blood is Power.

Also, Signet of the Locust… I don’t get why so many necros have this in combat.

locust is a must atm esp without warhorn for perm swift

This adds no offensive capability, and it certainly doesn’t help against thieves. Whenever I (as a necro) see a necro who has this Signet, I know that I’m going to beat him, because he just wasted a utility. Any other class will just laugh at our +25% movement speed.
So other than for traveling and the healing potential in zerg fights, this Signet is a waste.
You might want to take a well or Corrupt Boon instead.

Locust signet is pretty mandatory for wvw, the on-use is really good (if your 1v1’ing, run near some mobs & presto, another great heal) and with power builds it has decent damage. If you can stay in the fight longer then it’s not wasted at all.

Overall though, if you meet a good thief that know’s what it’s doing, there isn’t much you can do unfortunately. Just hope you can dark pact it, get your wells off and hope it doesn’t shadowstep.

Signet of the Locust is helpful for running down those pesky rangers, ele’s and mesmers that want to try and keep their distance.

If I know I have a thief coming, I usually change it out (WoS or WoC) because I know they are going to want melee range so speed isn’t really an issue there.

spoj.9672:

Only thief build that necro will have trouble with is pistol thief. Otherwise we pretty much counter everything they do. Use DS to survive their initial burst and then you have the fight won. You either kill them or they escape with their tail between their legs, usually the latter.

The issue there is your DS is now burned, and he has run away, and has all his cooldowns up in 30 seconds or less. He comes back, you have no DS, you have no defense against his burst.

I routinely kill thieves with no issue, my point is that exceptional thieves are going to not be something you can deal with. I also have a harder time with sword/dagger thieves than either P/D or D/D, as those tend to always run away, while the sword thieves build more sustainable and daze constantly.

In response to the post though, learning to time how long 4 seconds is in stealth and trying to avoid their backstab/daze is the easiest way to get them to run away. Most thieves stay in stealth the full 4 seconds for the condition removal and healing up-time. Play a thief for a while, and you get a good feel for how long that is.

Don’t be a tool and stack marks at your feet, they will just dodge roll and waste them all. If they run, let them run, and go the opposite direction towards an objective or a sentry. Don’t be brave and chase them or wait around for them to come back. They get as many second chances as they want, you don’t.

Save your fear for the heal if possible. If you can interrupt hide in the shadows,it forces them to use blinding powder or refuge, setting up a good situation for you to either run or force them to run. A full rabid condition build with 0/30/10/10/20 and terror works well, but falls short if they go heavy on condition removal or reduction in condition duration. In full disclosure, it is a complete waste of time to fight a thief in the open field, so don’t do it, but if you must, best of luck.

I usually don’t have an issue with other classes. I am trying to find a way to deal with thieves more effectively while not negatively impacting my abilities against other classes…

@ Rennoko; that is a funny thing you said there about not stacking marks…lol! <— guilty

Never thought about the evade in and attack you deal… Haha, thanks for pointing that out. I will have to try to better time the stealth attacks it appears.

I think retaliation might be a waste…but cannot be sure at this point…not without trying it I guess.

I only use DS in dire situations…so for me to pop in and out of it wouldn’t really matter to me.

I play WvW exclusively as roaming condition necro, doing smallscale PvP. I kill plenty of Thieves every night. That said, if i played a Thief in WvW i would never ever die to a Necro. There is always time to reset the fight in your favor as thief.

There are several annoying thief builds, the most annoying part is the condition cleanse on stealth and yeah well, perma stealth and / or endless kiting eighter by you or the thief.

Your best bet against any thief build is trying to load a few bleeds and chain fear to gain the upper hand and kiting. The smart ones won’t die from that or anything else you think of trying, because in worst case a quality opponent will take note of your cooldowns will reset the fight at will. At some point, as Necro you will stand there with cooldowns and your pants down.

You have not really played WvW till you find the thief that trolls the crap out of you and there is nothing you can do about it.

Kitedyou.1720:

@ Rennoko; that is a funny thing you said there about not stacking marks…lol! <— guilty

Never thought about the evade in and attack you deal… Haha, thanks for pointing that out. I will have to try to better time the stealth attacks it appears.

I disagree.
You should absolutely place marks as often as possible.
Why? Because placing a mark starts the cooldown. If you don’t place it at all a thief will just jump you out of stealth. Worst case scenario: with Basilisk Venom. Then the only option is wasting life force after a big initial hit.

I also disagree with your general assessment of thief vs necro, Rennoko.
I have yet to meet a thief that I absolutely can’t beat. And I have participated in a lot of those windmill duel thingys, where I went up against some true geniuses.
It’s correct that most of the time a good thief has the option to run away. But the good ones don’t run. They either embrace a duel with a worthy opponent or are too confident that they are going to win eventually.

flow.6043:

Kitedyou.1720:

@ Rennoko; that is a funny thing you said there about not stacking marks…lol! <— guilty

Never thought about the evade in and attack you deal… Haha, thanks for pointing that out. I will have to try to better time the stealth attacks it appears.

I disagree.
You should absolutely place marks as often as possible.
Why? Because placing a mark starts the cooldown. If you don’t place it at all a thief will just jump you out of stealth. Worst case scenario: with Basilisk Venom. Then the only option is wasting life force after a big initial hit.

I also disagree with your general assessment of thief vs necro, Rennoko.
I have yet to meet a thief that I absolutely can’t beat. And I have participated in a lot of those windmill duel thingys, where I went up against some true geniuses.
It’s correct that most of the time a good thief has the option to run away. But the good ones don’t run. They either embrace a duel with a worthy opponent or are too confident that they are going to win eventually.

I am not saying don’t use the marks, I am saying don’t place them in such a way that a well place dodge roll can pop all of them with no effect. Overlapping the rings entirely is the problem. Also I am guilty of this from time to time. We all panic and spamming happens.

I tend to overstate the thief case, but the best thieves I have ever met, will handle me about 50/50 with a normal build, and about 70/30 with a good anti necro build. That is assuming they are held into the fight (a duel) and don’t run. Good thieves absolutely do run… honorable thieves might not, and certainly not during a duel, but in normal WvW, sure as hell they are going to run.

I am sure out there is a thief that would beat me even more often than the above, but my point is that the players taking me 70/30 have me at a disadvantage that cannot be made up by skill. Those builds, and gear setups that result in that ratio are beyond that which I can counter with ability, and it comes down to timing of interrupts and dodges to make up for the lack of a level playing field. Factor in the ability to break combat, and you have a long string of fights where they are at an advantage and will eventually with the odds take me down.

I think placing the marks in such a manner would work best…

http://www.regentsprep.org/Regents/math/geometry/GP4/tricircle.gif

Ignore the text in the circles, I just found any image that best fit my thoughts.

They can evade one or two, but there should always be one that remains…

Stealth thieves are problem even for a cond build they die but it’s hard because they are stealthed most of the time which makes cond stacking hard and also they clean while invisible + regen. Most of the time i make them atlest to run away.
time between stealths is too short but anet is not listening the thousands of players but the bunch of thieves that cry because their dps goes down a bit in pve while its still more than our and some other classes

Actually, the best way is to not make them overlap at all. If a mark triggers, run onto the next one.
Also, you could try to fear him into a mark that you are not standing on.

So, if I am understanding all of this discussion correctly…Staff is the primary weapon of attack/defense against thieves.

Presumably then, having 20% faster staff and larger marks is a good thing…

So what about the second spec, if anything, should change?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAW4djMap7FbKb87JApHPfNvTF4G6Ru76MA-jkCBYMRGrBgCEiuAgwAOBqIasVXhtEbIaKbYaYER1A-w

I suppose you meant to take Mark of Evasion? Or is Bloodlust really just for the sigil?
In terms of thief countering, you might want to take those 10 points into Curses for Weakening Shroud. Maybe even 15 for Furious Demise, seeing that you have a power heavy build with just 37% crit chance (not a fan of Spiteful Vigor). That would also make your on-crit-sigils more effective.
Speaking of which: Consider taking 2 Sigils of Geomancy. I have a little less power and precision in my build, but I have seen the sigil do 1500 damage (usually it’s about 700-1k). Direct damage, that is… not the 3 stacks of bleeding.

And of course, Signet of the Locust doesn’t help you at all against thieves (or any class really). So if you know you’re about to engage, you could switch it out.

One more thing: Maybe Chill of Death instead of Spiteful Talisman.

Stealth Trap

flow.6043:

I suppose you meant to take Mark of Evasion? Or is Bloodlust really just for the sigil?
In terms of thief countering, you might want to take those 10 points into Curses for Weakening Shroud. Maybe even 15 for Furious Demise, seeing that you have a power heavy build with just 37% crit chance (not a fan of Spiteful Vigor). That would also make your on-crit-sigils more effective.
Speaking of which: Consider taking 2 Sigils of Geomancy. I have a little less power and precision in my build, but I have seen the sigil do 1500 damage (usually it’s about 700-1k). Direct damage, that is… not the 3 stacks of bleeding.

And of course, Signet of the Locust doesn’t help you at all against thieves (or any class really). So if you know you’re about to engage, you could switch it out.

One more thing: Maybe Chill of Death instead of Spiteful Talisman.

Bloodlust is for dagger #2 primarily.

Regarding the Sigil of Geomancy… That is a pretty good amount of damage from that sigil, that is for sure…any idea if that damage gets the 20% bonus from Close to Death (not the bleeding, obviously)?

I am still toying around with Sigils…I guess I should head to pvp test area and see what the effects of each one is… There are so many that I am unfamiliar with… Thanks.

@Kitedyou

I play mainly condi necro so I am not so familiar with the power necro but my suggestions are ( keeping your original spec in mind ):

When fighting:
If you are playing against an offhand dagger thief, avoid melee range as much as possible, so sticking with the staff is the best choise here. When he stealths you can throw a quick mark on the location you saw him last and put a nr2 under your feet. If you think the thief was coming for you you should dodge about 0.5-1 sec after your mark triggers on him depending on his time spent in stealth ( I recommend to try a thief to fully understand the stealth mechanics and timings ).

Dodge if you see a CnD incoming.

If you are against a dagger pistol thief, you can go on melee, just avoid staying in the blinding powder and use your dagger 2 while waiting for it to go down.

To make him run:
Use all the chills/cc you have and do as much damage as possible

To kill him:

This is the tricky part and hard to pull off.
Stealth thieves use stealth heal, DS is your best friend here. If you have dagger, interrupt them with DS3 and follow up with DS2 and try to go max dps to down them (perfect time to use BiP if it’s up) if you have staff ( against DD thieves ) interrupt with DS3 and continue with marks.

If they use shadow refuge, try to use staff nr5 to fear them off of it as they will get revealed.

If they use shadowstep, there is nothing you can do if they jump away from you and not next to your wurm or something. Only way to kill a thief is to get their shadowstep on CD and trick them to go on you, or they use shadowstep in panic and tp close to you.

If you do not have doom up when you see a thief going stealth use DS2, dagger 2 ( if on close range), DS4, dagger 3 or focus 5 as channeled skills will continue to hit if you start them before your target stealths. Same goes for skills that you have started to cast before one stealths.

In conclusion:
- avoid the burst ( the tricky part )
- use staff for offhand dagger thieves
- use chill as much as possible ( for the slow )
- save DS3 for countering the heal
- go all in after you have interrupted their heal, chill will also increase their recovering time
- use staff nr5 for shadow refuge if you can save the fear mark for it

Kitedyou.1720:

any idea if that damage gets the 20% bonus from Close to Death (not the bleeding, obviously)?

Yes, it does.

DarnDevil IV.2143:

and put a nr2 under your feet.

rofl

DS their initial burst, spectral walk to gain life force, spam your marks and fear their heals, dagger them down when staff is on cooldown, focus 5 their buffs and focus 4 for regen, and throw in your Lich somewhere in there.

If they run away, consider that a victory and run yourself because they can reset a fight so fast and then you will be royally screwed.

I’m surprised by how many use the Signet of the Locust.
Then again I’m usually running a Hybrid build with Runes of the Centaur so I have great Swiftness uptime with Spectral Walk and the Swiftness on Heal.

Maybe I should use Signet of The Locust on my Power build to see if it’s actually decent.
Having no stunbreaker seems dangerous.
If the signet was one I’d probably use it much more often.

Anyway, I have one tip about Shadow Refuge…
If the Thief moves out of the Shadow Refuge early he loses all Stealth and gets the “Revealed” debuff.
In other words if a Thief hides in a refuge he’s forced to stand inside the circle until the skill finishes.

Sometimes you can luck out with Reaper’s Mark and Fear a Thief out of the circle!
It obviously happens much more often if you have a high Fear duration.

You cannot beat a half decent D/P thief as a powermancer. You must play a terror condi build to have any chance, and even then they can just wait out your cooldowns and keep resetting.

Necro power spec is a team spec. It’s not a duel spec and you’ll only beat bad people with it because quite frankly you don’t have the burst other classes have nor the invulnerabilities/blocks to foil spike while staying offensive. Everytime you go into DS your damage drops significantly because your only really good DPS ability is an autoattack.

flow.6043:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

and put a nr2 under your feet.

rofl

Yes, I know a theif can dodge very easily, that’s why you put the mark on the lowest cooldown for it.

I use this mainly for the information about his location and if a thief burns a dodge to avoind one staff nr2 I will be more than happy as there are much more important things to dodge.

DarnDevil IV.2143:

flow.6043:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

and put a nr2 under your feet.

rofl

Yes, I know a theif can dodge very easily, that’s why you put the mark on the lowest cooldown for it.

I use this mainly for the information about his location and if a thief burns a dodge to avoind one staff nr2 I will be more than happy as there are much more important things to dodge.

You misunderstand.
That phrase just sounds alot like toilet humor. xD

I agree about the mark. Not to forget, you get regeneration even if the thief dodge rolls through it.

Zenith.7301:

You cannot beat a half decent D/P thief as a powermancer. You must play a terror condi build to have any chance, and even then they can just wait out your cooldowns and keep resetting.

Necro power spec is a team spec. It’s not a duel spec and you’ll only beat bad people with it because quite frankly you don’t have the burst other classes have nor the invulnerabilities/blocks to foil spike while staying offensive. Everytime you go into DS your damage drops significantly because your only really good DPS ability is an autoattack.

This is so completely false. Just because you can’t make it work doesn’t mean it’s unviable. I have beaten plenty of good players. Using DS for damage gets you killed. Good necro’s only flash DS.

While it’s true I do not have the burst, it doesn’t really matter anyway. They don’t have the burst either because my DS eats it up.

with D/F – staff you have plenty of ways to hinder a thief (or any profession really). Necro’s just have to work a bit harder to get the same result and I’m okay with that.

flow.6043:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

flow.6043:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

and put a nr2 under your feet.

rofl

Yes, I know a theif can dodge very easily, that’s why you put the mark on the lowest cooldown for it.

I use this mainly for the information about his location and if a thief burns a dodge to avoind one staff nr2 I will be more than happy as there are much more important things to dodge.

You misunderstand.
That phrase just sounds alot like toilet humor. xD

I agree about the mark. Not to forget, you get regeneration even if the thief dodge rolls through it.

Ah, now that you said it I understand it LOL

koopatroopa.5360:

Zenith.7301:

You cannot beat a half decent D/P thief as a powermancer. You must play a terror condi build to have any chance, and even then they can just wait out your cooldowns and keep resetting.

Necro power spec is a team spec. It’s not a duel spec and you’ll only beat bad people with it because quite frankly you don’t have the burst other classes have nor the invulnerabilities/blocks to foil spike while staying offensive. Everytime you go into DS your damage drops significantly because your only really good DPS ability is an autoattack.

This is so completely false. Just because you can’t make it work doesn’t mean it’s unviable. I have beaten plenty of good players. Using DS for damage gets you killed. Good necro’s only flash DS.

While it’s true I do not have the burst, it doesn’t really matter anyway. They don’t have the burst either because my DS eats it up.

with D/F – staff you have plenty of ways to hinder a thief (or any profession really). Necro’s just have to work a bit harder to get the same result and I’m okay with that.

If you take making theif running away as a victory then yes I aggree with you, but I think Zenith ment there is no way to kill a decent D/P thief with power necro, which I totally agree. He has to be a no brainer and engage in combat while having the shadowstep utility on CD.

It sounds as though there is no reliable way for a Necro to beat a Thief…I don’t like that answer really…I will find a way, eventually…

If they have a hard time with Guardians…what is it about the guardian that makes them so tough?

The thief that I was talking to in my guild is one that I would consider a pretty good one…and he said that he doesn’t like fighting guardians…

I’m going take this conversation the Thief section and ask them what they hate about guardians…

That’s because guardians are difficult to take down, high toughness and a lot of retaliation. Even if a guardian doesn’t attack me (running away or whatever), I lose around half my health as a necro from retaliation before he’s downed. That’s most of a thief’s HP.

Kitedyou.1720:

It sounds as though there is no reliable way for a Necro to beat a Thief…I don’t like that answer really…I will find a way, eventually…

Well, the “reliable” way is to down him before he can stealth up again.
That means you need to trap him in a CC chain und land a nice damage burst on top of that. How well that works depends on the build.
It certainly does with mine, if you want to give that one a try. Although… I feel kinda handicapped atm because of the Staff Mastery bug :/

We eat guardians for breakfast because we have a lot of boon removal and unblockables spells. Guardian’s defense is mostly blocks and boons.

Thief eat us for breakfast because they have a lot of tools to hardcounter lots of our tools. The same tools you bring to a guardian fight will be near useless against thief.

You will beat bad one and get eaten alive by good ones, with no chance to retaliate properly.

Like danlarusso.2790 said earlier: “You have not really played WvW till you find the thief that trolls the crap out of you and there is nothing you can do about it.” And trust me, they will /laugh and /dance a lot when they do .

Axe is a good wep vs thief, it gives you an easy criple and ret and a hard hiting channeled skill that counters stealth since if you cast it before a thief goes into steal it still gona hit it, same with DS #4 and dagger #2, Wells also help.

Panhauramix.2784:

Like danlarusso.2790 said earlier: “You have not really played WvW till you find the thief that trolls the crap out of you and there is nothing you can do about it.” And trust me, they will /laugh and /dance a lot when they do .

Just to build on this shamefully. Yesterday evening I ran into a P/D thief running full Apothecary gear, who stomped on my face twice in a row (yes I was stupid enough to go back and try again). He proceeded to chain laugh on top of my body and jump around.

It got me to thinking how would a terrormancer even handle a build like that. I am familiar enough with thief to actually know exactly what build and traits he was running, and I don’t really think I can effectively counter it.

To summarize: It would be a 0/0/30/20/20 build (the thief), with all the appropriate hard counters like condition removal on stealth, hide in the shadows, etc. His healing power is so high, his stealth healing is going to outpace (without removing it) at least 5 of my bleeds ignoring regen completely. He was running shadowstep, blinding powder, malice.

Realistically, he doesn’t even need thieves guild, but once that gets popped im really at a loss for how to handle this. Even chaining a decent set of conditions and fear isn’t going to help because he can stun break with shadowstep, or just blinding powder throught the fear…. the cooldowns on my cripples/chills are not going to be up fast enough once his stealth as removed them, and he is just going to wail on me with the pistol from melee range, C/D whenever he knows im out of dodges.

Even condition transfering back to him as often as I can when I hit around 8 bleeds, doesn’t help that much because his bleeds are all shorter, and will do little to him after they have ticked on me for 3-4 seconds (they will run out after around 7-8 seconds). The regen he is bringing to the table is so high its not even a close contest.

In two tries I couldn’t get him below 50%. And I only think he had to steal-fear me once. It got me to wondering, and the question I open to the forum is…. Can a rabid based condition necro deal with that build at all? It seems like a complete hard counter, to the degree it would be a waste of time to even try.

I never like to admit that my current condition build is completely unviable (situationally), but I think against this combo, even ignoring the fact he COULD reset the fight if he wanted, because he doesn’t need to.

Unlike a D/D or zerker warrior, or some other burst build that will occasionally surprise me to dead; even with proper prep. this one seems to be beyond me… Anyone with advise on how to proceed against the above I would appreciate.

Rennoko.5731:

Just to build on this shamefully. Yesterday evening I ran into a P/D thief running full Apothecary gear, who stomped on my face twice in a row (yes I was stupid enough to go back and try again). He proceeded to chain laugh on top of my body and jump around.

How do you know he was full Apothecary geared ?
Did you add & ask him ?

Rennoko.5731:

I never like to admit that my current condition build is completely unviable (situationally), but I think against this combo, even ignoring the fact he COULD reset the fight if he wanted, because he doesn’t need to.

Unlike a D/D or zerker warrior, or some other burst build that will occasionally surprise me to dead; even with proper prep. this one seems to be beyond me… Anyone with advise on how to proceed against the above I would appreciate.

Well, realizing that you cannot win against a build thats a hardcounter for your build unless the person who plays it is much lower skilled or geared ?

It’s the same as if i as a full zerker thief with only Condi removal via Heal or SS, would cry about a conditionmancer …

You have to either realize that there are counterbuilds , or try to play a hybrid build / which will then result in very long fights .

A 0/0/30/20/20 thief has not enough dmg to kill you if you run a build thats high toughness + healing yourself !

Hybrid builds normally shortens fights, one way or the other.

They won’t burst you down with that build, but will win the attrition fight everytime, they have the tools to do so and we lack the counter.

Don’t want to brag about my top-notch skills against thieves (because I’m far from the top and still got a lot to learn) but you can still see in my last video three fights against thiefs.

2 against “bad” ones: At 2:52 a condi thief that doesn’t even budge my health, and at 3:42 a Power one that while not pressuring me enough, still heals for a lot more than me and come back full lots of time.

At 7:35, you see a “good” thief, that heals against for twice-thrice my heal and still have good dps. All our AoE/Condition tools get removed easily.

http://youtu.be/2nYqR74yzfM?t=7m35s

lvis.3824:

Rennoko.5731:

Just to build on this shamefully. Yesterday evening I ran into a P/D thief running full Apothecary gear, who stomped on my face twice in a row (yes I was stupid enough to go back and try again). He proceeded to chain laugh on top of my body and jump around.

How do you know he was full Apothecary geared ?
Did you add & ask him ?

Rennoko.5731:

I never like to admit that my current condition build is completely unviable (situationally), but I think against this combo, even ignoring the fact he COULD reset the fight if he wanted, because he doesn’t need to.

Unlike a D/D or zerker warrior, or some other burst build that will occasionally surprise me to dead; even with proper prep. this one seems to be beyond me… Anyone with advise on how to proceed against the above I would appreciate.

Well, realizing that you cannot win against a build thats a hardcounter for your build unless the person who plays it is much lower skilled or geared ?

It’s the same as if i as a full zerker thief with only Condi removal via Heal or SS, would cry about a conditionmancer …

You have to either realize that there are counterbuilds , or try to play a hybrid build / which will then result in very long fights .

A 0/0/30/20/20 thief has not enough dmg to kill you if you run a build thats high toughness + healing yourself !

I know it was full (more or less) apothecary based on the condition damage he was dealing to me (around the range of a 2nd tier stat allotment for condition damage), and based on the low damage his shots base damage was doing to me, since I am relatively familar with what pistol does for a thief in carrion/rabid.

So if he was using rabid, his ticks would be higher, and if it was carrion/rampagers, his shots would hit harder. His crit rate was also in the tank based on the combat log as well… I could have added him to chat, but when people laugh on my corpse it sort of sours the mood.

I don’t think there is any healing/sustain build from a necro that could compete with this. Frankly I don’t see any builds being able to deal with this on the necro side at all… which I guess was a better question.

I realize builds have HARD counters, though I disagree with the concept of that, because THIS thief build, has no hard counter. It may have a soft counter from another build with similar sustain that capitalizes on blocks/evades to prevent C/D, like another thief or guardian… but nothing from a necro.

Perhaps I am just venting about my irritation with how well that class sustain works vs. how poorly ours would work in any build. In the same situation against this same thief, I don’t see a win happening in 1v1. I dislike the very notion of class X being able to beat class Y, reguardless of circumstances. My infamiliarity with power builds could perhaps explain why I don’t see a solution in that tree.

There are a lot of bad thieves in wvw rolling the fotm class, and for a lot of them beating them is easy. Stand in marks, cast gtaoe at your feet, ds4, and repeat. Most of them will go down if to do it right, and you can tell who those thieves are from the heart seeker spamming and aggressive playstyles.

Remember you can still hit them in stealth, especially with channeled skills. And if you soak up burst with DS it keeps them from effectively using heart seeker which will help. Drop wells or marks in Shadow Refuge to keep the pressure up when they use it, and always remember that they will go for your back with backstab if they are using mainhand dagger.

I’m surprised it hasn’t been mentioned much, but you beat thieves the most consistently with CC. Use fear, golem knockdown, or warhorn daze and let loose on them. A dazed thief out of stealth isn’t stealthing or doing damage, so they go down quickly if you can hit them in time.

And then there are the patient, skilled and terribly effective thieves that will burn down your DS and cool downs and come back when you don’t have any more ways of fighting back. It’s the patient thieves that are the best thieves, IMO.

Honestly the best defense I have found for thieves is just playing one and learning the cooldowns and timers for stealth. If you know how each skill works and are familiar with it, all you have to do is count down. You can time it nearly perfectly to dodge, because most of them do the same exact rotations, same exact timing because they’re limited by stealth time. Once their main stealth is gone, burst them to pieces, and make sure you are using retaliation. It eats them up fast. And if you can’t burst them down but you countered their 3 main bursts they do, they tuck tail and run which is still a win for you.

I am getting some interesting feedback on the thief forum and will have a build soon that I am going to test out…

The problem that I am going to try and avoid is getting pigeon hole’d into being able to beat thieve’s and nothing else…that is my primary concern…

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Honestly the best defense I have found for thieves is just playing one and learning the cooldowns and timers for stealth. If you know how each skill works and are familiar with it, all you have to do is count down. You can time it nearly perfectly to dodge, because most of them do the same exact rotations, same exact timing because they’re limited by stealth time. Once their main stealth is gone, burst them to pieces, and make sure you are using retaliation. It eats them up fast. And if you can’t burst them down but you countered their 3 main bursts they do, they tuck tail and run which is still a win for you.

Retaliation is the trick up my sleeve for these guys… Great minds think alike.

Yet the problem still remains, retaliation is only good against fast low hits, not big bad burst one. Those D/P who stack stealth by jumping multiple times in the smoke field (bad stealth mechanic at his best) screw up any “count in your head” you can do, and you’re still stuck in combat while they heal and remove conditions.

I’ve already done Perma-Ret build with full Soldier gear for max survival, and it’s nowhere as good as Guardian or Mesmer’s one, because right now burst in WvW is X times stronger than any defense you can muster so you won’t live that long with Soldier and won’t kill fast because of lack of damage, a loss-loss in my book.

Good thiefs hit you for 6-7k bs, stealth and stack it. Wait for regen/removal, then come back full while you get another 6-7k bs (sometimes a free 3-4k HS through Smoke field because hey, it’s free damage and he got to stay in stealth! Bad stealth mechanic again!) Just with those 2-3 attacks, he now forced a heal or eat up a lot of your lifeforce/health, and he wakitten from retaliation for 350(max)x2-3, that healed easily while in stealth. You can count to 4 all you want, it will be 5-6 instead, and you’ll be hit far more often from stealth than you would like to.

IMHO, you would be better to focus on an all-around build, and accept that good thiefs will stomp you if you’re caught alone. Trying to build a counter that need luck to be successful in the first place is never a good idea.

Guardians give some thieves a hard time, because of aegis and spamable aoe damage.

…but other thief builds roflstomp guardians. My sword/dagger thief goes looking for guards every chance I get. Most cloak and dagger thieves are nearly immune to condition damage….

To be perfectly honest I have no good advice for a necro wanting to kill thieves. I was never able to do it with my necro. A full power build dropping marks with the increased marks damage trait might make them leave you alone.. i dunno.

They may just hound you more, because they’ve been looking for a challenge.