Guild Wars 2

Is it just me or is the whole 5% of condition damage for bleed and 10% for poison seem really low? Maybe I just don’t understand the formula, it is early, but at 5% it seems far better to just stack any other stat. I mean if 1200 condition damage is only going to net me an extra 60 damage a tick, I am better off just getting something else. Especially with the way the contribution, xp, and loot tagging system works.

With some classes bursting people down in a matter of seconds I think we can safely increase what conditions can do. What’s worse is condition damage has more skills to be completely negated than anything else.

If we considere boss events with 20+ players fighting a single target bleed should get 250% of condition damage.

Remember that it’s 5% of condition damage PER STACK. If you are expecting a single stack of bleed to be effective pressure (even at 1200 condition dmg) you will be sorely disappointed every time. As a necro I can consistently put and hold 8-10 stacks of bleed on a single target indefinitely. That is 800-1000 damage per second at 1200 cond dmg and lvl 80, which is a significant amount. As a sword warrior I can do even better, putting 15-20 stacks for up to 2k dmg per second from bleed alone! This is actually more dps than you can get with burning, which is supposed to be more of a “burst” condition. Now of course this still isn’t quite the 5-10k dps that burst warriors can put out with things like 100blades, but bleed is pressure, not burst: less dps but over a longer period of time.

Poison doesn’t stack in intensity, so the damage will be rather weak, but I’ve always viewed poison as anti-healing (with the 33% reduction in healing it imposes) rather than straight damage pressure.

But that doesn’t matter much if you are not able to keep up more than one stack since there are too many players using bleed on the a single target.

it is not 800-1000 damage per second, it’s more like 180 pve, or 226, max, for s-pvp, that’s every 2 seconds, not 1000, are you nuts? Where the hell did you pull that number from?

Do you not see the ticking damage numbers every second? How did you manage to get 1000 damage per second out of 85-100 damage ticks on the screen lmao ? ??

it’s only 5% damage, it does not stack. The only thing that happens when bleeds stack are the fact that the ticks of damage happen more frequently. THEY DO NOT STACK % based damage, they just tick more frequently.

More bleeds, more poison = faster ticks. That is all.

@Shelledfade: have you noticed that when those numbers tick off, there’s more than one of them and they tick way faster than every second. I don’t know how fast they tick but I usually see something like 3 numbers popping up near instantaneously maybe every 0.5 seconds.

And I’m getting my numbers from the formula provided on the wiki. If that formula is wrong, then obviously my numbers are off and I apologize, but I’ve never actually done extensive testing in-game so until someone tells me otherwise I will go with what the wiki says.

Every bleeding stack ticks once per second.

aznricepuff.5086:

@Shelledfade: have you noticed that when those numbers tick off, there’s more than one of them and they tick way faster than every second. I don’t know how fast they tick but I usually see something like 3 numbers popping up near instantaneously maybe every 0.5 seconds.

And I’m getting my numbers from the formula provided on the wiki. If that formula is wrong, then obviously my numbers are off and I apologize, but I’ve never actually done extensive testing in-game so until someone tells me otherwise I will go with what the wiki says.

it’s 5% damage based off your condition damage for bleeding, 10% for poison. There is no “different” ticks, it is just 1 number always that has the same value unless it decreases or increases.

More stacks of bleed = faster ticks of damage, not increased overall damage based on %. I’ve played the necro long enough to know that this is a fact and that your information was slightly off.

The only reason the damage sometimes increases, is because the poison damage combines with the bleed damage. That is all, once the poison damage wares off you will see the damage ticks decrease slightly in damage, or increase slightly in damage if you apply poison with bleeding. Otherwise, it only thing putting more bleeds on does is increase the number of ticks of damage.

Max dmg with 8-9 bleeds + 1 poison in s-pvp with 112 ticks is like 500 damage per 3 seconds or something like that, maybe less. I haven’t calculated it exactly I’m just guesstimating it.

It’s really low though, no way near 1000 per sec.

not sure how it stacks or the math behind it, but i know you can go through 15k+ hp in less then 10 sec with 10-+ bleed stacks in spvp

bleed is VERY strong dmg wise and buffing it would make already very powerfull setups even more op.

Erebus.7568:

not sure how it stacks or the math behind it, but i know you can go through 15k+ hp in less then 10 sec with 10-+ bleed stacks in spvp

bleed is VERY strong dmg wise and buffing it would make already very powerfull setups even more op.

10 sec with 10 bleed stack? Definitely is not 15k damage.

OK, let’s say you’re right and stacking increases frequency and not intensity (and I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just need to do some in-game testing to verify). This still doesn’t change the fact that more stacks=more dps. It also doesn’t change the validity of my numbers (again assuming the formula on the wiki is correct).

aznricepuff.5086:

OK, let’s say you’re right and stacking increases frequency and not intensity (and I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just need to do some in-game testing to verify). This still doesn’t change the fact that more stacks=more dps. It also doesn’t change the validity of my numbers (again assuming the formula on the wiki is correct).

It does, because 5-10-15-20-25-30-35-40-45-50 , 50% bleed damage with 10 stacks would basically… well you would be seeing 700 damage ticks with that based on 1400 condition damage which you can achieve in s-pvp, on top of how fast it increases the rate of the ticks.

You’re not doing that much damage, and it does not work that way, otherwise the ticks would be 700 per tick, they are only around 112.

That should be proof enough that your information was wrong.

You’re doing far less damage than you think you are doing. Why do you think I am complaining so adamantly that we have no damage lol… It’s because we honestly don’t. Not compared to other classes. The DoT damage in this game is incredibly low damaging despite having full condition gear. It changes the validity of your numbers tenfold.

Different conditions stack in different ways.

For bleed it’s that each stack is treated as a single source of damage. They do neither increase intensity nor frequency. Of coures, since you don’t attack exactly once per second it looks like more stacking bleed would increase the frequency, but that’s actually not the case.

If you have 10 stacks of bleeding on your target, each of those stacks ticks once per second. So, if a single bleed does 100 dps 10 of them do 1000 dps.

Each stack of bleed behaves as a separate damage source. 10 stacks of bleed? 10 ticks of your bleed damage each second. I think we’re all sort of saying the same thing, but to put it succinctly, the damage from bleed comes from putting out large stacks of it. Math time. I get 120 damage ticks from my bleeds as my default conditionmancer build in sPvP. using BiP and scepter/dagger, it is by no means difficult to get 13 stacks of bleed on a target in a few moments. That is 13 ticks of 120 damage each second. 1560 damage every second, after their damage reduction, before any other source of damage is applied, and if I’m running epidemic, I can cause that in a large AoE as well. Pretty darn respectable.

Skliros.1058:

Each stack of bleed behaves as a separate damage source. 10 stacks of bleed? 10 ticks of your bleed damage each second. I think we’re all sort of saying the same thing, but to put it succinctly, the damage from bleed comes from putting out large stacks of it. Math time. I get 120 damage ticks from my bleeds as my default conditionmancer build in sPvP. using BiP and scepter/dagger, it is by no means difficult to get 13 stacks of bleed on a target in a few moments. That is 13 ticks of 120 damage each second. 1560 damage every second, after their damage reduction, before any other source of damage is applied, and if I’m running epidemic, I can cause that in a large AoE as well. Pretty darn respectable.

This would probably be true, if each bleed acted alone which I’m assuming it does, unless there’s some kind of cap. But yeah, 10 bleeds, for 100 damage each, would be 1000 damage per second assuming there is no further bleed cap on damage ticks that we don’t know about.

Getting that many is rather difficult though in s-pvp. You’re normally in the 7-8 range.

so according to that, you could do 7000 damage in 7 seconds. That’s still nowhere near the amount of damage that a warrior can dish out in the same amount of time given. You also have to factor in the fact that other necros consume conditions, and that guardians can remove conditions as well, which shuts your build down.

Also, if you go power (condition duration) and precision, you’re basically a glass cannon. If someone targets you, you will die incredibly fast.

Shelledfade.6435:

it is not 800-1000 damage per second, it’s more like 180 pve, or 226, max, for s-pvp, that’s every 2 seconds, not 1000, are you nuts? Where the hell did you pull that number from?

Do you not see the ticking damage numbers every second? How did you manage to get 1000 damage per second out of 85-100 damage ticks on the screen lmao ? ??

it’s only 5% damage, it does not stack. The only thing that happens when bleeds stack are the fact that the ticks of damage happen more frequently. THEY DO NOT STACK % based damage, they just tick more frequently.

More bleeds, more poison = faster ticks. That is all.

Aha, and that is why we can’t have nice things aka cool story bro.

Poison, chill, burn, slow…if u add to them, it increases duration.

Bleed, vulnerability, confusion they add stacks which you’d see if you actually played the game and looked at the icons and that they have a number by it, or maybe even read the skill descriptions (novel concept, I know). And increasing numbers by the icon=more stacks.

Anyway, if 1 stack does 100dmg/sec, then 10 stacks=1000 dps, 25 stacks=2500dps (that is, if you can maintain the stacks indefinetly).

So by your original statement: If I increase a tick by 60 damage and can on average maintain 10 bleeds I just increased my dps by 600 (zomg, it multiplies)- ok not rly, since you sacrifice power but /care to number crunch. And if you forgo power/crit you can more easily focus on vit/toug/condi which makes you more durable. So all in all, it’s a nice tradeoff.

As for usefulness of DOTs…depends who you’re fighting.

Annnnnnd, here, free complimentary: L2game mechanics and L2 read.

Novalight.7568:

Shelledfade.6435:

it is not 800-1000 damage per second, it’s more like 180 pve, or 226, max, for s-pvp, that’s every 2 seconds, not 1000, are you nuts? Where the hell did you pull that number from?

Do you not see the ticking damage numbers every second? How did you manage to get 1000 damage per second out of 85-100 damage ticks on the screen lmao ? ??

it’s only 5% damage, it does not stack. The only thing that happens when bleeds stack are the fact that the ticks of damage happen more frequently. THEY DO NOT STACK % based damage, they just tick more frequently.

More bleeds, more poison = faster ticks. That is all.

Aha, and that is why we can’t have nice things aka cool story bro.

Poison, chill, burn, slow…if u add to them, it increases duration.

Bleed, vulnerability, confusion they add stacks which you’d see if you actually played the game and looked at the icons and that they have a number by it, or maybe even read the skill descriptions (novel concept, I know). And increasing numbers by the icon=more stacks.

Anyway, if 1 stack does 100dmg/sec, then 10 stacks=1000 dps, 25 stacks=2500dps (that is, if you can maintain the stacks indefinetly).

So by your original statement: If I increase a tick by 60 damage and can on average maintain 10 bleeds I just increased my dps by 600 (zomg, it multiplies)- ok not rly, since you sacrifice power but /care to number crunch. And if you forgo power/crit you can more easily focus on vit/toug/condi which makes you more durable. So all in all, it’s a nice tradeoff.

As for usefulness of DOTs…depends who you’re fighting.

Annnnnnd, here, free complimentary: L2game mechanics and L2 read.

If you sacrifice power, you sacrifice duration. What you mean L2 read? I’ve been stating the same thing since the beginning of this thread -_- If anyone needs to L2 read it’s you… jesus.. He thought it was based on stacking %‘s, it’s not.

Novalight.7568:

Anyway, if 1 stack does 100dmg/sec, then 10 stacks=1000 dps, 25 stacks=2500dps (that is, if you can maintain the stacks indefinetly).

So by your original statement: If I increase a tick by 60 damage and can on average maintain 10 bleeds I just increased my dps by 600 (zomg, it multiplies)- ok not rly, since you sacrifice power but /care to number crunch. And if you forgo power/crit you can more easily focus on vit/toug/condi which makes you more durable. So all in all, it’s a nice tradeoff.

Sry, but that logic is bogus. In this case, power would also stack if you hit the same target multiple times with direct damage skills.

/edit
The text below is not from me. Who the hell can edit my post?

As for usefulness of DOTs…depends who you’re fighting.

Annnnnnd, here, free complimentary: L2game mechanics and L2 read.
———————————————————-

The problem with condition dmg is, do you sacrifice power, which sacrifices your duration, for toughness? Obviously you need the condition traits, that’s a must. Do you go glass for duration , or toughness? Probably toughness would be the better choice. But the bleeds must not last very long at all.

then we get into the problem of how useless the toughness bonus traits are for this spec.

-5% of toughness is given as a bonus to power. obsolete
Gain +20 toughness for each minion under your control. obsolete
Summon a jagged horror whenever you kill a foe. 30 second cooldown. obsolete

Boon duration is likely also obsolete unless someone in your party is buffing you.

The only good ones from choice would be….

Staff skills recharge 20% faster.
Increases area of marks and marks become unblockable.
3rd I guess is optional but I would probably take
Gain retaliation for 5 seconds when you heal

Shelledfade.6435:

The problem with condition dmg is, do you sacrifice power, which sacrifices your duration, for toughness? Obviously you need the condition traits, that’s a must. Do you go glass for duration , or toughness? Probably toughness would be the better choice. But the bleeds must not last very long at all.

Eh. I usually sacrifice power for toughness. I don’t remember exactly, but I do something like 10/30/20/0/10, or 0/30/20/0/20 for those times I feel I need more survability/utility out of shroud. I don’t usually find my conditions are expiring too fast. I can usually maintain 8-10 stacks of bleed when focusing a target. If I run BiP I can up that to 12-14 (BiP + any one of our many condition transfer skills = instant 4-stack bleed for 10-15 seconds, depending on how many duration traits/upgrades you take, plus at least a 2-stack for 30 seconds).

Condition damage/duration isn’t what the necro is lacking. What the necro is lacking is a way to counter burst damage. We laugh conditions off like they’re nothing but even going full toughness/vit + death shroud I find I get burst down way too easily. We have very few panic buttons besides death shroud. No way to get stability other than the one trait that gives you stability when entering death shroud. No way to break stuns. Only two skills that proc protection, both with large cooldowns. In my opinion the only method we have of countering burst is preemptively through the use of conditions (i.e. weakness, blind). But you need to see a burst coming for this to work, which is a tall order especially in team fights when it’s completely possible for a warrior you’re not paying much attention to to decide to charge at you and ruin your day with a knockdown+stun+100blades.

aznricepuff.5086:

Shelledfade.6435:

The problem with condition dmg is, do you sacrifice power, which sacrifices your duration, for toughness? Obviously you need the condition traits, that’s a must. Do you go glass for duration , or toughness? Probably toughness would be the better choice. But the bleeds must not last very long at all.

Eh. I usually sacrifice power for toughness. I don’t remember exactly, but I do something like 10/30/20/0/10, or 0/30/20/0/20 for those times I feel I need more survability/utility out of shroud. I don’t usually find my conditions are expiring too fast. I can usually maintain 8-10 stacks of bleed when focusing a target. If I run BiP I can up that to 12-14 (BiP + any one of our many condition transfer skills = instant 4-stack bleed for 10-15 seconds, depending on how many duration traits/upgrades you take, plus at least a 2-stack for 30 seconds).

Condition damage/duration isn’t what the necro is lacking. What the necro is lacking is a way to counter burst damage. We laugh conditions off like they’re nothing but even going full toughness/vit + death shroud I find I get burst down way too easily. We have very few panic buttons besides death shroud. No way to get stability other than the one trait that gives you stability when entering death shroud. No way to break stuns. Only two skills that proc protection, both with large cooldowns. In my opinion the only method we have of countering burst is preemptively through the use of conditions (i.e. weakness, blind). But you need to see a burst coming for this to work, which is a tall order especially in team fights when it’s completely possible for a warrior you’re not paying much attention to to decide to charge at you and ruin your day with a knockdown+stun+100blades.

I’d actually argue this is one of our lesser issues, if it was an issue at all. Bring Plague form, never worry about burst again.

So after reading through that pile of inaccuracy and bad maths above I thought id give my opinion on the matter.
In spvp, bleeds are perfectly fine, and can be very powerful, spreading 10+ stacks of bleeds onto a group of 3 people does some serious damage, especially since it goes through armour.
In pve, I find it rly rly kitten irritating that in their infinite wisdom, the devs decided to cap the amount of bleeds on a single target to LESS than what two people can put on, whether it be a 5 man boss, or a 40 man boss, if somebody can explain the logic behind that i would very much apreciate it.
On the topic of max condition stacks, does anybody know how additional stacks are handled when there are already 25 on a target? do the new ones simply not apply or does it override ones about to run out? The most I’ve been able to ascertain is that at 25 stacks, bleeds on yorself will not be transfered to your target when you use one of the skills that transfers conditions.

^^ my $0.02

New ones override old ones, those with the least duration left first.

Bleed’s tick twice per second, not once.

alanis.6094:

Bleed’s tick twice per second, not once.

They tick once a second, fairly sure my 10 stack isn’t doing 2400 dps
also there’s this:

“Bleeding can stack in intensity up to 25 times and each stack does one pulse of damage per second. The damage dealt by bleeding is determined by the following formula:

2.5 + 0.5 * Level + 0.05 * Condition Damage per stack per second"

I myself am now very very confused about how basic bleeding works. After reading all the information presented here in this thread.

what exactly does intesity do? Does it shorten the time between ticks? Does it cause the bleed dmg to be upped? In my play time I have always thought it caused my bleeds to just tick faster is all.

Sidenote: Really wish a dev would respond to more of the questions we have in the Necromancer community instead of just locking the threads that spiral out of control.

Happy Wednesday,
Madame Moorshade Teknomancer

Teknomancer.8475:

I myself am now very very confused about how basic bleeding works. After reading all the information presented here in this thread.

what exactly does intesity do? Does it shorten the time between ticks? Does it cause the bleed dmg to be upped? In my play time I have always thought it caused my bleeds to just tick faster is all.

Sidenote: Really wish a dev would respond to more of the questions we have in the Necromancer community instead of just locking the threads that spiral out of control.

Happy Wednesday,
Madame Moorshade Teknomancer

“stacks intensity” means that when you apply a new bleed, it adds another instance of bleeding to the target, so if you apply a 10s bleed, then a 5s bleed, you effectively have 2 debuffs, which will each tick once a second for a certain amount of dmg based on condition dmg. Each of these bleeds has its own duration that is unaffected by the other bleeds on the target. If the duration of one of these instances of bleeding runs out, the target will lose 1 stack of bleeding.

Not the most elegant explanation but I hope it helps, there’s a lot of very off information in this thread, so I suggest you go have a read of the wiki if you still confused, most of the information there is fairly accurate.

Shelledfade.6435:

Skliros.1058:

Each stack of bleed behaves as a separate damage source. 10 stacks of bleed? 10 ticks of your bleed damage each second. I think we’re all sort of saying the same thing, but to put it succinctly, the damage from bleed comes from putting out large stacks of it. Math time. I get 120 damage ticks from my bleeds as my default conditionmancer build in sPvP. using BiP and scepter/dagger, it is by no means difficult to get 13 stacks of bleed on a target in a few moments. That is 13 ticks of 120 damage each second. 1560 damage every second, after their damage reduction, before any other source of damage is applied, and if I’m running epidemic, I can cause that in a large AoE as well. Pretty darn respectable.

This would probably be true, if each bleed acted alone which I’m assuming it does, unless there’s some kind of cap. But yeah, 10 bleeds, for 100 damage each, would be 1000 damage per second assuming there is no further bleed cap on damage ticks that we don’t know about.

Getting that many is rather difficult though in s-pvp. You’re normally in the 7-8 range.

so according to that, you could do 7000 damage in 7 seconds. That’s still nowhere near the amount of damage that a warrior can dish out in the same amount of time given. You also have to factor in the fact that other necros consume conditions, and that guardians can remove conditions as well, which shuts your build down.

Also, if you go power (condition duration) and precision, you’re basically a glass cannon. If someone targets you, you will die incredibly fast.

Are you not using the Cond Damage/Toughness/Precision gear? Why the hell not?

My necro was incredibly powerful in BWE3, I played a ton of hours of sPVP and was always topping charts. Though I haven’t had a chance to play one on live, so I’m not going to claim perfect expertise.

I loved the condition damage build that I ran and didn’t find him underpowered at all. If necros get a significant buff to Scepter/OH + Staff builds I think that I will be FORCED to play one, because it’s going to be overpowered as kitten.

Remember that you are in the highest base HP category, and your gear should be adding toughness.

Fantom.9217:

Shelledfade.6435:

Skliros.1058:

Each stack of bleed behaves as a separate damage source. 10 stacks of bleed? 10 ticks of your bleed damage each second. I think we’re all sort of saying the same thing, but to put it succinctly, the damage from bleed comes from putting out large stacks of it. Math time. I get 120 damage ticks from my bleeds as my default conditionmancer build in sPvP. using BiP and scepter/dagger, it is by no means difficult to get 13 stacks of bleed on a target in a few moments. That is 13 ticks of 120 damage each second. 1560 damage every second, after their damage reduction, before any other source of damage is applied, and if I’m running epidemic, I can cause that in a large AoE as well. Pretty darn respectable.

This would probably be true, if each bleed acted alone which I’m assuming it does, unless there’s some kind of cap. But yeah, 10 bleeds, for 100 damage each, would be 1000 damage per second assuming there is no further bleed cap on damage ticks that we don’t know about.

Getting that many is rather difficult though in s-pvp. You’re normally in the 7-8 range.

so according to that, you could do 7000 damage in 7 seconds. That’s still nowhere near the amount of damage that a warrior can dish out in the same amount of time given. You also have to factor in the fact that other necros consume conditions, and that guardians can remove conditions as well, which shuts your build down.

Also, if you go power (condition duration) and precision, you’re basically a glass cannon. If someone targets you, you will die incredibly fast.

Are you not using the Cond Damage/Toughness/Precision gear? Why the hell not?

My necro was incredibly powerful in BWE3, I played a ton of hours of sPVP and was always topping charts. Though I haven’t had a chance to play one on live, so I’m not going to claim perfect expertise.

I loved the condition damage build that I ran and didn’t find him underpowered at all. If necros get a significant buff to Scepter/OH + Staff builds I think that I will be FORCED to play one, because it’s going to be overpowered as kitten.

Remember that you are in the highest base HP category, and your gear should be adding toughness.

@Phantom
I know that since BWE3 they removed a lot of rly good traits, and also they seem to have changed death shroud mechanics, as in bwe3 it seemed to break cc on use, which it no longer does

You guys should read the damage numbers on the tooltips of your spells because the game calculates the damage you will do based on your cond. damage and show it to you in the tooltip. I ran the numbers using the formula on the wiki 3 times for Blood is Power and got exactly the same numbers as the spell tooltip. If you don’t believe me just remove some of your cond. gear and see the numbers in the tooltip drop. Calculate from there how much cond. damage you make by adding together the damage of all the bleed spells you use and you can roughly calculate your damage. With 193 cond. damage at level 32 I deal roughly about 3k total damage from bleeds alone using 2 from scepter,5 from offhand dagger and Blood is Power to stack my bleeds on a single target once without even switching to the staff for added Mark of Blood bleeds. So I can imagine with 1400 cond. damage at level 80 you do a lot more.

Shelledfade.6435:

More stacks of bleed = faster ticks of damage, not increased overall damage based on %. I’ve played the necro long enough to know that this is a fact and that your information was slightly off.

every stack of bleed = 1 tick of damage per second

for a guy that is constatly whining about necro, you sure dont have the smallest clue of the class, or even of the basics of the game, now do you?

Konrad Curze.5130:

Shelledfade.6435:

More stacks of bleed = faster ticks of damage, not increased overall damage based on %. I’ve played the necro long enough to know that this is a fact and that your information was slightly off.

every stack of bleed = 1 tick of damage per second

for a guy that is constatly whining about necro, you sure dont have the smallest clue of the class, or even of the basics of the game, now do you?

Isn’t that what he just said? More stack = more ticks = faster ticks, but not bigger ticks

Also I’m pretty sure that this is what the UI displays.

Distaste.4801:

Is it just me or is the whole 5% of condition damage for bleed and 10% for poison seem really low? Maybe I just don’t understand the formula, it is early, but at 5% it seems far better to just stack any other stat. I mean if 1200 condition damage is only going to net me an extra 60 damage a tick, I am better off just getting something else. Especially with the way the contribution, xp, and loot tagging system works.

With some classes bursting people down in a matter of seconds I think we can safely increase what conditions can do. What’s worse is condition damage has more skills to be completely negated than anything else.

This isn’t the issue. The issue is that other classes can reliably maintain 20 or more stacks of bleed on an target. Necros can do about 10.

Cheezels.9316:

So after reading through that pile of inaccuracy and bad maths above I thought id give my opinion on the matter.
In spvp, bleeds are perfectly fine, and can be very powerful, spreading 10+ stacks of bleeds onto a group of 3 people does some serious damage, especially since it goes through armour.
In pve, I find it rly rly kitten irritating that in their infinite wisdom, the devs decided to cap the amount of bleeds on a single target to LESS than what two people can put on, whether it be a 5 man boss, or a 40 man boss, if somebody can explain the logic behind that i would very much apreciate it.
On the topic of max condition stacks, does anybody know how additional stacks are handled when there are already 25 on a target? do the new ones simply not apply or does it override ones about to run out? The most I’ve been able to ascertain is that at 25 stacks, bleeds on yorself will not be transfered to your target when you use one of the skills that transfers conditions.

^^ my $0.02

Completely agreed. Bleed stacks need to be unlimited in PVE.

Here’s what I’ve picked up from my experience, soloing, events, etc.

Game-mechanics wise, bleed doesn’t behave as a stack. Each stack is actually a single, individual bleed effect.
-Each bleed effect (1 stack) runs on it’s own timer. A 2s bleed will wear off after 2s, no matter when it was applied or what was stacked on top of it.
-Each has it’s own owner, meaning damage credit is given to whoever applied. If a mob has 25 stacks, and only 3 of them are yours, you will see 3 ticks of bleeding damage on the mob. The rest of the stacks go to whoever put them there. This really sucks in events.
-If the target is bleed-capped, it seems to be simply first-come-first-served as to who’s bleed goes on once one wears off. It’s very disheartening to be fighting a boss, and seeing only 1 tick per second because only one of my bleeds is sticking through the cap.

Essentially, if you see a stack of 25 bleeds, your are seeing 25 different bleed effects, not one giant effect. The moral is, don’t go pure condition damage for dungeons/events.

I’m a Necro with 1550+ Condition Damage, fully equipped with lvl 80 Exotics focused in Condition Damage, runes of the Afflicted (That give Condition Damage, +% Bleed Duration) and using a Scepter/Dagger combo I can mantain like 14~ stacks of Bleed that deal 135~ damage on lvl 80 targets.

It does tick once per second per Bleed. I did the math and even recorded the game and counted the bleeds over time on slow-motion.

It dealt like 1800 damage per second from bleeding alone.

LOL, the number of people here jumping to conclusion and saying that Necro’s are broken based on poor observations is hilarious

Get the facts straight, or leave it until someone confirms anything because you even spout suggestions. Firstly, the only reasonable suggestion here, really, is ASK FOR HOW BLEED WORKS.

I honestly don’t believe ANET would allow for such huge discrepancy in terms of these core mechanics. Bleed + Condition dmg versus Power + burst physical attacks cannot be that far apart. They may differ in damage slightly, but they have different pros and cons that you must learn to make use of.

Mirar.1087:

LOL, the number of people here jumping to conclusion and saying that Necro’s are broken based on poor observations is hilarious

Get the facts straight, or leave it until someone confirms anything because you even spout suggestions. Firstly, the only reasonable suggestion here, really, is ASK FOR HOW BLEED WORKS.

I honestly don’t believe ANET would allow for such huge discrepancy in terms of these core mechanics. Bleed + Condition dmg versus Power + burst physical attacks cannot be that far apart. They may differ in damage slightly, but they have different pros and cons that you must learn to make use of.

As long as the cap is 25 in PVE, condition builds will always have extremely poor DPS compared to power builds on champion fights.

Amazing… Right after I said people “jump to conclusions,” another fool comes and states with certainty:

Ahmon.1730:

As long as the cap is 25 in PVE, condition builds will always have extremely poor DPS compared to power builds on champion fights.

Until you have some solid facts, please stop embarrassing yourself.

Here is an investigation from someone else:
===========
“Stacks doesn’t increase the tick damage.It increases the speed of damage ticks. When there is 5 different people with bleeding attacks and a boss with 25 stacks of bleeding debuff it means that every bleeding debuff applied by people will tick at 25 stack speed.

MULTIPLE CONDITION DAMAGE CHARACTERS BUFF EACH OTHER.Faster stack to 25 and keeping it at that for longer means that each and every one of the bleed attack caused by everyone else will tick at 25 speed.

If everyone had their own bleed stack it would actually reduce the overall damage for everyone as people keeping their bleeds at 25 stack all the time will be very limited if not impossible.

I’m gonna do a little math here with some basic numbers.

Lets say 25 stack bleed = 5 ticks per second so 5 stack is 1 tick per second.

Bleed damage right now with 1 stack of 25 for everyone.5 Characters with 10 – 20 – 30 – 40 – 50 damage per tick

In 10 seconds Damage would be

[(105)(205)(305)(405)(505)10] = 7500 damage

If you want everyone to have their own stacks
Player with 50 damage can keep 25 bleed stacks for himself all the time
Player 2 with 40 damage can keep 20 bleed stacks
Player 3 and 4 can keep their bleed stacks up to 15
Player 5 can keep it up to 10

So 10 second damage is

[(505)(404)(303)(203)(102)10] = 5800 damage

Bleed damage reduced for everyone when you get your own stack.

TL;DR

MORE BLEED STACK = FASTER BLEED TICK RATE
MORE BLEED STACK =/= MORE TICK DAMAGE FOR BLEED "
===========

At least there’s some science in how this conclusion was reached. “OMG 25 stack cap” is nothing near sufficient for any conclusion. The point is, we don’t understand enough, perhaps bleeding IS actually good with this system…

Er, I’m fairly certain that’s completely wrong. I’ve seen that copypasta floating around a lot with absolutely no proof behind it and actual experience has contradicted it at every turn

Mirar.1087:

Amazing… Right after I said people “jump to conclusions,” another fool comes and states with certainty:

Ahmon.1730:

As long as the cap is 25 in PVE, condition builds will always have extremely poor DPS compared to power builds on champion fights.

Until you have some solid facts, please stop embarrassing yourself.

Here is an investigation from someone else:
===========
“Stacks doesn’t increase the tick damage.It increases the speed of damage ticks. When there is 5 different people with bleeding attacks and a boss with 25 stacks of bleeding debuff it means that every bleeding debuff applied by people will tick at 25 stack speed.

MULTIPLE CONDITION DAMAGE CHARACTERS BUFF EACH OTHER.Faster stack to 25 and keeping it at that for longer means that each and every one of the bleed attack caused by everyone else will tick at 25 speed.

If everyone had their own bleed stack it would actually reduce the overall damage for everyone as people keeping their bleeds at 25 stack all the time will be very limited if not impossible.

I’m gonna do a little math here with some basic numbers.

Lets say 25 stack bleed = 5 ticks per second so 5 stack is 1 tick per second.

Bleed damage right now with 1 stack of 25 for everyone.5 Characters with 10 – 20 – 30 – 40 – 50 damage per tick

In 10 seconds Damage would be

[(105)(205)(305)(405)(505)10] = 7500 damage

If you want everyone to have their own stacks
Player with 50 damage can keep 25 bleed stacks for himself all the time
Player 2 with 40 damage can keep 20 bleed stacks
Player 3 and 4 can keep their bleed stacks up to 15
Player 5 can keep it up to 10

So 10 second damage is

[(505)(404)(303)(203)(102)10] = 5800 damage

Bleed damage reduced for everyone when you get your own stack.

TL;DR

MORE BLEED STACK = FASTER BLEED TICK RATE
MORE BLEED STACK =/= MORE TICK DAMAGE FOR BLEED "
===========

At least there’s some science in how this conclusion was reached. “OMG 25 stack cap” is nothing near sufficient for any conclusion. The point is, we don’t understand enough, perhaps bleeding IS actually good with this system…

You sir, are a moron, and clearly have a severe inability to read.
Here’s some “solid facts” for you, if theres a boss with 25 stacks on bleed on it already, and I cast a single spell that puts a bleed on it, NOTHING happens, I get NO bleed dmg popups, and I do NO dmg from that spell

Now let me do some simple math with small numbers

0 x any amount of condition dmg I may have = lets see here ZERO

Cheezels.9316:

You sir, are a moron, and clearly have a severe inability to read.
Here’s some “solid facts” for you, if theres a boss with 25 stacks on bleed on it already, and I cast a single spell that puts a bleed on it, NOTHING happens, I get NO bleed dmg popups, and I do NO dmg from that spell

Now let me do some simple math with small numbers

0 x any amount of condition dmg I may have = lets see here ZERO

Ouch : \

Okay accurate reader, I specifically stated “At least there’s some science in how this conclusion was reached… The point is, we don’t understand enough.” I did not claim at ANY point that the investigation I quoted is definitely the true underlying mechanics. I simply don’t want people being mislead by poor conclusions like yours. So I gave an example of how someone could easily argue the opposite and suggest that the 25 stack cap COULD be actually beneficial.

My stance is, stop it with the misleading conclusions, and wait for ANET to provide the actual mechanics, or until some stronger investigations are conducted.

Though I must ask… You really think that “NOTHING happens, I get NO bleed dmg popups, and I do NO dmg from that spell”? Are you that convinced that bleed spells become nullified when the 25cap is hit? I find it hard to believe that ANET is that stupid to render bleeding useless in so many situations.

Other than not getting any dmg popups when i apply a bleed while theres 25 stacks, the inability to transfer bleeds from myself to my target using the dagger skill(they simply remain on me) is what I’m basing this on. Aswell as the fact that if I arrive at a champion event with a zerg of people, and only start applying bleeds after there’s 25 stacks on it, I can rarely get gold by simply trying to use bleeds, I need to switch to more direct dmg to get full credit.
Its the fact that ANET have rendered bleeding so underwhelming in so many situations that has led to this annoyance from the community.

Oh I thought you used a more direct form of bleed appliance and did not see any bleed ticks after. E.g. You used a single Mark of Blood, and only saw the burst go off and not a single bleed tick after.

I assume you’re referring to Deathly Swarm, when you refer to transferring bleeds. People have also experienced difficulty with this spell, especially with its minimal tooltip. It sometimes fails to transfer anything.. sometimes doesn’t bounce that well…
- When they designed this spell, they may have simply failed to consider what if the target had 25stacks of bleed already.
- Or perhaps your Swarm missed.
- Or maybe the champion JUST gave you a new condition, and you instantly transferred
- Or the champion resisted the Blind, thus rendered the secondary transfer effect moot
Many factors hinder the reliability of Swarm to cause bleed stack/damage.

Well failing to get gold is hardly compelling evidence.

But it is worth it, to solely test if each of our bleed appliance spell fails at 25 stacks. By fail, I mean apart from the initial physical damage, no ticks occur afterwards AT ALL.

Either way, I don’t think you should be too convinced with the evidences you have.

My swarm missed? – this is not WoW you dont need to be hit capped, and I’ve done the fight in question enough times to know the boss doesnt apply a blind, or evade attacks

Maybe the champion gave me a new condition? – A new condition with 25% of its duration already expired? (the condition I’m talking about is the self bleed from blood is power)

The champion resisted the blind? – The unshakeable buff means that blind only causes 10% of attacks to miss, not that it resists blind 90% of the time

Your argument is extremely flawed and based primarily off of somebody else’s very flawed argument. If you actually read a lot of what is posted here, and actually pay attention to what is happening in game yourself (at this point I’m wondering if you’ve even tried out these situations in game) you would see that while there’s a lot of misinformation spread through this thread, the general thoughts behind it are accurate based on what is observable in game at present.

Edit: thought id throw in why the copy paste uve included is so flawed
“Lets say 25 stack bleed = 5 ticks per second so 5 stack is 1 tick per second.”
This, 25 stack bleed = 25 ticks per second, says in tooltip, has been observed by many people including myself (using sylvari plant turret ultimate to stack bleeds personally)
The rest of it is simply so illogical that I dont even know where to begin

In any case this has gone horribly off topic, as nobody is really talking about the 5% coefficient being too small, and it was established that most people think its absolutely fine for situations where there isn’t more than 1 other person applying bleeds.

so basically each mob and player has 25 bleed “slots”, in each of them a bleed will register his duration and owner (the guy/npc that casted it) and assign damage according.
when you cast a spell with x bleed effects for y seconds the game looks if the recipient has any bleed slots free and fill as many of them he can.
if it has less bleed slots than your spell should inflict, you’ll see ticking only the slots you filled for their individual duration and the game engine will count damage (for rewards pourposes) only for those.
there’s no buffer so anything you cast when all slots are full is wasted and when a slot empties it work first comers first served.
the cascade of numbers you see on the screen is just a graphical representation of what is happening and often is wildly inaccurate because you can put only so much numbers on screen in a second and see them, if yuo can keep the full 25 stacks of bleeds you wont be able to see all of them ticking on screen.

NixZero.7540:

so basically each mob and player has 25 bleed “slots”, in each of them a bleed will register his duration and owner (the guy/npc that casted it) and assign damage according.
when you cast a spell with x bleed effects for y seconds the game looks if the recipient has any bleed slots free and fill as many of them he can.
if it has less bleed slots than your spell should inflict, you’ll see ticking only the slots you filled for their individual duration and the game engine will count damage (for rewards pourposes) only for those.
there’s no buffer so anything you cast when all slots are full is wasted and when a slot empties it work first comers first served.
the cascade of numbers you see on the screen is just a graphical representation of what is happening and often is wildly inaccurate because you can put only so much numbers on screen in a second and see them, if yuo can keep the full 25 stacks of bleeds you wont be able to see all of them ticking on screen.

Correct sir, though I think maybe you can see all the numbers they are just very hard to read and overlap when u get to 25