Guild Wars 2

In todays But of Corpse Update, Symbolic talks the state of the Necromancer in tournament play, why he chose a Necromancer, dismantles the theory of imbalance in high end tournament play, and debates with your favorite Minionmancer about Condition Spec versus the rest of the Necro builds.

Remember you can also subscribe to the podcast on itunes simply follow the link on the website.

BoC talks with Symbolic

For those of you waiting on transcripts and youtube captioning abilities. I will sit down this weekend and look over some options to get it. When I get the capability, I will go back to the previous podcasts and get them setup as well.

Just finished watching, had great flow (and good tips with the Lich Well trick, so many people dont use it; btw plague works too since it gives a small boost in power), the boon talk was interesting.

Andele.1306:

Just finished watching, had great flow (and good tips with the Lich Well trick, so many people dont use it; btw plague works too since it gives a small boost in power), the boon talk was interesting.

Thanks we got really sidetracked and then I realized we were talking Ele’s and Rangers haha.

Bas.7406:

Andele.1306:

Just finished watching, had great flow (and good tips with the Lich Well trick, so many people dont use it; btw plague works too since it gives a small boost in power), the boon talk was interesting.

Thanks we got really sidetracked and then I realized we were talking Ele’s and Rangers haha.

Thats exactly the reason why, the 2 classes i really liked in beta (and i even said back then that DD ele has potential to be overpowered but used sigils and glyphs thus didnt get the vigor and might benefits of cantrips) and am leveling while listening to the podcasts.

I keep the AoE circle on, because it is very helpful when defending towers. As many of you know, when you are on top of the wall, it is very hard to AoE foes below. Your own wall will block your field of vision. The only way you can tell is by moving your aoe circle around until it turns green.

CHIPS.6018:

I keep the AoE circle on, because it is very helpful when defending towers. As many of you know, when you are on top of the wall, it is very hard to AoE foes below. Your own wall will block your field of vision. The only way you can tell is by moving your aoe circle around until it turns green.

I didn’t even think of that point Good Call! We have to get you on sometime CHiPs ;p. I will shoot you a pm about it.

And Bas try to change it to youtube. That way a player can listen to parts of it, pause anytime, and come back to where they left off.

I am working on that chips. It is on iTunes now so you can use that one as well. I think I can adjust the player as well to allow for pausing. I didn’t realize it was resetting until I tried to pause it myself. Thanks for the tip.

Not to be condescending, but as someone who was top 5 in World of Warcraft arenas, it always makes me cringe when low-rated players try to argue with high-rated players. It’s fallacious to submit to what an authority figure says, but everything Symbolic said is objectively true to anyone who plays Guild Wars 2 and has experience in high-rated PvP in any MMO.

The rest of the conversation was interesting, particularly how most low-rated or new players tend to underestimate necromancers and overestimate how imbalanced the game really is. The latter in particular happens in every MMO I’ve ever played.

Not that I don’t agree that players shouldn’t argue with those who are more skilled as a habit, but high ranked players are just people too. Just because a “pro” or high ranked player believes something to be true, doesn’t mean it necessarily is. I think this is even more the case in a game like GW2, where even the best are far from having had enough experience to know everything.

That isn’t to say that I, who have played all of 1 hour on a mesmer, should go around pulling stuff out of nowhere, but that many things are still very open to debate.

Lopez.7369:

Not to be condescending, but as someone who was top 5 in World of Warcraft arenas.

Yes, the WoW arenas that were 99% have pally and druid (or depending on their current balance warlock/shammy) that can keybind and win…
Oh and stack all the Resilience!

Bhawb.7408:

Not that I don’t agree that players shouldn’t argue with those who are more skilled as a habit, but high ranked players are just people too. Just because a “pro” or high ranked player believes something to be true, doesn’t mean it necessarily is. I think this is even more the case in a game like GW2, where even the best are far from having had enough experience to know everything.

That isn’t to say that I, who have played all of 1 hour on a mesmer, should go around pulling stuff out of nowhere, but that many things are still very open to debate.

Many of the things Symbolic was talking about have little to do with the specifics of Guild Wars 2. Things like putting too much into one ability (Death Shroud) or relying on bad AI that has an extremely basic, common counter (pets and AOE) are just fundamentally bad spec and gameplay decisions. To anyone who has been high rated in any MMO, they’re decisions that are really obviously unviable.

They’re not bad issues to discuss because the conversation can help out worse players, but it’s cringeworthy to hear a clearly inexperienced person argue with someone who is considerably more experienced.

Andele.1306:

Yes, the WoW arenas that were 99% have pally and druid (or depending on their current balance warlock/shammy) that can keybind and win…
Oh and stack all the Resilience!

Barring healers, stacking resilience was terrible for most classes and comps. And I played long enough to see way more than just paladins and druids being overpowered, but I did not play those classes.

Just the fact you didn’t know these things should humble you a bit.

Lopez.7369:

Barring healers, stacking resilience was terrible for most classes and comps. And I played long enough to see way more than just paladins and druids being overpowered, but I did not play those classes.

Just the fact you didn’t know these things should humble you a bit.

*cough bullfeces cough* Every person who ever did was big into pvp (old Arathi Basin) later laughed about how crappy the 3v3 setup is and resilience was overpowered. Hell Swifty (aka razors pvp avatar in wow right now) said on Blizzcon 2009 that they are a bad joke, just as battlegrounds with how prevelant the damage reduction from resilience is (being able to wreck up to 69~73% total damage reduction),. I really dont know what it is right now since i had a big pause during Wrath and finally quit when they did the all dungeon nerfs in Cata, but PvP is and will be 3-6 interrupts, 2+ all movement impairing effect removals (counting trinket ofc) and a hardcore healer that the enemy wants to bring down with a lot of strafe behind pillars. What class is or isnt op really doesnt matter (used druid and pally as a example from when some of my friends did it and the arenajunkies tier list back then).

All this from a ex troll Shadow priest Vampiric embrace tap heal/battery.

As much as I hate to interrupt a “No I know more than you do” fight… Well actually I love interrupting that. Could you two not drag it into who knows more about / has a better history in a different game?

That said, I don’t mind when the hosts question a player, especially when it leads into an explanation of why. For example, the comments “Necro minion builds are very strong 1v1” and “Necro minion builds aren’t viable in tPvP” made an interesting pair. But then there was the explanation was that there was so much mobility from other classes, but not in necros. So a minion necromancer wouldn’t be able to catch / force a 1v1 fight where they excel, but would get dragged into a 2v1 or 2v2 fight (because there tends to be at least one quick-roaming foe in the equation) where the “All on one” nature of minions would start to be a liability.

I mean, don’t be contradictory in every point, but if the hosts are surprised by an opinion, it’s better to ask why a view is a particular way than to just allow / deny.

I wanted to point out though that Bhawb’s mic / software / something tended to cut or have static noises or pop throughout. I know you can’t really control the guest’s audio, but the hosts need to come through clearly.

Softspoken.2410:

I mean, don’t be contradictory in every point, but if the hosts are surprised by an opinion, it’s better to ask why a view is a particular way than to just allow / deny.

I wanted to point out though that Bhawb’s mic / software / something tended to cut or have static noises or pop throughout. I know you can’t really control the guest’s audio, but the hosts need to come through clearly.

Not to try and defend it (since it is there and there is time for improvement), but here is the why its like that, since the actual host is just Bas/he records it/is the only one who hears the wav file and truning from a .vrf to .wav and then to mp3 causes pretty heavy changes in the preformance. For short stuff that they might not hear during recording pops up.

I’ll need to look into that. I’ve used this mic a lot before, I’m wondering if it is dieing or something from use, since I have used it for duo-queueing in LoL for half a year, and my partner has never mentioned something. But I will definitely see what I can do about that, I’d like to think I’m actually saying things important enough you should be able to hear them

Bhawb.7408:

I’ll need to look into that. I’ve used this mic a lot before, I’m wondering if it is dieing or something from use, since I have used it for duo-queueing in LoL for half a year, and my partner has never mentioned something. But I will definitely see what I can do about that, I’d like to think I’m actually saying things important enough you should be able to hear them

Ah, I don’t mean to imply you can’t be understood! I can always tell what you’re saying without issue. But there’s just some static that’s getting brought in with it, that might be worth taking the time to track down and eliminate.

Yeah, I had heard from others on the podcasts that I have some interference. I’ll have to see if the other mic I have is better, or if I can get a new one.

Andele.1306:

cough bullfeces cough Every person who ever did was big into pvp (old Arathi Basin) later laughed about how crappy the 3v3 setup is and resilience was overpowered. Hell Swifty (aka razors pvp avatar in wow right now) said on Blizzcon 2009 that they are a bad joke, just as battlegrounds with how prevelant the damage reduction from resilience is (being able to wreck up to 69~73% total damage reduction),. I really dont know what it is right now since i had a big pause during Wrath and finally quit when they did the all dungeon nerfs in Cata, but PvP is and will be 3-6 interrupts, 2+ all movement impairing effect removals (counting trinket ofc) and a hardcore healer that the enemy wants to bring down with a lot of strafe behind pillars. What class is or isnt op really doesnt matter (used druid and pally as a example from when some of my friends did it and the arenajunkies tier list back then).

All this from a ex troll Shadow priest Vampiric embrace tap heal/battery.

I understand Swifty is popular because his videos are entertaining, but he was never high rated. He was never close to gladiator. I don’t think he even got hero of the Alliance (rated battleground title).

It used to be a very common misconception among low-rated players that resilience was the best stat, but it wasn’t. Using it was actually bad in a few comps — mainly cleaves and RMP — because having more offensive strength was much more important.

Anyway, this argument got away from the point. All I was saying is that any high-rated player from any MMORPG would be able to immediately understand why Symbolic is right, and it’s always frustrating to see low-level players act like they have the depth of knowledge to disagree in an educated fashion. More humility is necessary in these conversations.

Lopez, no one cares what your rank was in World of Worthless players, the worst PvP game to date. Go back to WoW, if you want to chest thump, and quit crapping on threads with this nonsense.

If you have an issue with being asked questions, or to explaining your point of view, don’t put yourself, and your ideas in the publics view. You don’t see pro-football players crying about critiques from the general public.

Coaches are the most knowledgeable people in the world in virtually every aspect of any game, even if they can’t play it as well as those they coach. So get off your high horse. It gets old that you can’t discuss anything without people like you coming in with this nonsense.

He was really bragging about WoW? WoW wasnt even a PvP’ers game. Kitten Carebear.

Then again, Zerg Wars is certainly no DAoC either…

Talentless.5708:

He was really bragging about WoW? WoW wasnt even a PvP’ers game. Kitten Carebear.

Then again, Zerg Wars is certainly no DAoC either…

Actually, once upon a time, in a cold valley far far away, it was a epic pvp battle of 40 on 40 with coordinated fights and PvE elements (hint hint, twas old Alterac Valley) and the higher level streams you find on twitch of coordinated pvp is quite interesting and has a depth of setup strategy… that is if both teams are lacking mobility.

Also a (sadly) direct on the point video about WoW PvP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1WP1YCiw0

I found it interesting just from the different perspectives that emerged. And I might say each was valid in terms of the individual play-styles etc.

One thing that I find unsettling, and it is probably more in general on these forums than specific to this podcast (but it was evident at times), is the constant use of absolutes and superlatives in support of views/arguments/builds. I think for the intended “education and learning” aspects of the podcast, opinions etc should be qualified where possible and put into context. For example (and this is just plucked out of the air but you will all recognise what I am talking about), statements like players being able to “spam fear” should really be qualified with context details like the duration, frequency, cooldown and any obvious opportunity costs involved. I did notice that Symbolic approached this on several occasions…sort of. It would add balance to the information and allow people to make up their own minds based on that information rather than just say-so. What I have found most valuable is that the information I have gleaned has allowed me to experiment without it being a haphazard random stab in the dark….and I personally really enjoy that.
Just personal opinion….and a big thanks to those involved in the podcasting

In general, absolutes are used because when making a point, you tend to want to draw things to their extremes. For example, if you want to make a point of how good Death Shroud is, you wouldn’t talk about it when it is in an untraited form in a condition build with no on-crit bleeds, you would talk about a fully traited Death Shroud that can keep 100% fury, 60% retaliation, 66% weakness/2 bleeds, and removes a condition every 5 seconds.

We can definitely try to qualify things when possible, but in general people use absolutes to make their point (it sounds much more convincing); it is a strong speaking tool, to make your argument more impactful. Otherwise, it sounds really weak if you say, “Well, X is pretty good, but then again there are a lot of other things that you can do, and it doesn’t work so well for A, B, and C, so its really just a playstyle.” Just make sure you don’t take them the wrong way, and we will try to qualify when it is appropriate

@Lopez, Symbolic and I converse quite a bit in game. I was pretty sure I knew his answer before I proposed the question. When he came back with an absolute, I wanted him to clarify his position. It had nothing to do with arguing. I was trying to give him a basis for the opinions I had. I never claimed to know more than he did. In fact, when he made a good point, I said you make a good point, but why can’t I do it like this.

You see, the key to a conversation, is having two counter points and debating them. It was not my intention for it to be perceived as an argument, and at no point did Symbolic feel it was an argument. I did catch him off guard, but that’s because at the level he plays there are things he just assumes all players know. This is not the case.

In fact, at the very end of the podcast, Symbolic stated that he did not intend to mean that it should not be tried and that he may just give it a try. In his mind due to the way the Necro plays, and the format of the game currently (epidemic being so strong) that on high end tournament play the conditionmancer is stronger than a powermancer.

There is a reason we wanted him to repeat several times why he felt the powermancer was weaker. I wanted him to clearly state his opinion so that others can see where he was coming from when he said Conditionmancers are the way to go in tournaments. When you make a statement like that a lot of people will stop listening to everything else you say, so I asked him the question why? I then gave him examples as to how Bhawb and I have seen success, and wanted him to clearly explain his position.

He did it very well. In fact, after the podcast was over, we spoke with him for several minutes about playing different builds and thanked him for some great tips like the LichWell Bomb, and corrupt to epidemic to fear and playing off main target. At no point did I feel he was attacking myself or did he feel I was attacking him.

Having said that, I agree with your basic point. He knows more than Bhawb or myself about tournament play, but we wanted him to explain himself not to just make a blanket statement.

Oldbugga.7029:

I found it interesting just from the different perspectives that emerged. And I might say each was valid in terms of the individual play-styles etc.

One thing that I find unsettling, and it is probably more in general on these forums than specific to this podcast (but it was evident at times), is the constant use of absolutes and superlatives in support of views/arguments/builds. I think for the intended “education and learning” aspects of the podcast, opinions etc should be qualified where possible and put into context. For example (and this is just plucked out of the air but you will all recognise what I am talking about), statements like players being able to “spam fear” should really be qualified with context details like the duration, frequency, cooldown and any obvious opportunity costs involved. I did notice that Symbolic approached this on several occasions…sort of. It would add balance to the information and allow people to make up their own minds based on that information rather than just say-so. What I have found most valuable is that the information I have gleaned has allowed me to experiment without it being a haphazard random stab in the dark….and I personally really enjoy that.
Just personal opinion….and a big thanks to those involved in the podcasting

We try to keep things general in our first few podcasts, because there is so much to go over and we don’t want to go for four hours. Which you easily could with the necro, I tried to stop when a statement was made that I was sure would need to be explained. I appreciate the feed back, and will work on catching more things.

There are times when we had to cut off a certain subject (if you checked out Rennoko’s we cut him off several times when he started delving into conditions and how they operated). We will start becoming more detailed as we progress, but in one hour we can only cover a few subjects, and I wanted to bring in other players who can also explain certain specifics.

This was really fun to do and I’m disappointed it was over so quickly! I tried axe again today and I just suck at it, SO I HATE IT!

I have the BoC Youtube Podcast Channel now

http://www.youtube.com/user/Jopf2

I was never bragging. I was qualifying. But I do find it different how many psychological defense mechanisms kick in when someone brings up a game that someone else failed at or never quite grasped.

The difference between a professional sports player and a professional e-sports player is that professional sports are generally much easier to understand. What’s happening on the screen is readily apparent due to the stricter structure of professional sports. That doesn’t apply to Guild Wars 2; most people don’t come close to grasping elements like positioning or playing defensively with offense in MMORPGs. (I would be surprised if 90 percent of GW2 players even thought about proper positioning for one second.)

It would be one thing if the hosts were just playing devil’s advocate. That’s fine. But almost every conversation was ended with one of the hosts saying he disagrees. Silly.

It’s obvious this lack of humility will never change, so I’ll leave it at that.

Lopez.7369:

I was never bragging. I was qualifying. But I do find it different how many psychological defense mechanisms kick in when someone brings up a game that someone else failed at or never quite grasped.

The difference between a professional sports player and a professional e-sports player is that professional sports are generally much easier to understand. What’s happening on the screen is readily apparent due to the stricter structure of professional sports. That doesn’t apply to Guild Wars 2; most people don’t come close to grasping elements like positioning or playing defensively with offense in MMORPGs. (I would be surprised if 90 percent of GW2 players even thought about proper positioning for one second.)

It would be one thing if the hosts were just playing devil’s advocate. That’s fine. But almost every conversation was ended with one of the hosts saying he disagrees. Silly.

It’s obvious this lack of humility will never change, so I’ll leave it at that.

1. You know, please come and brag when you get dragon rank in GW2 pvp, since WoW arenas aint for bragging (seriously i got the Deady Frost Wyrm and whatever the title was for the pale green Neither Drake just by spamming macros when off cooldown with 2 friends that used their 2-6 skill rotation spam).

2. Yes since a little guy who is obviously in a giant circle that changes the longer he is in and a thief that wants to help his ally on another spot is really that complicated… next thing youll say that a mass of zerglings fighting a group or marauders and marines isnt obvious in SC2.

3. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouKeepUsingThatWord about your use of the word humility…

Lopez.7369:

The rest of the conversation was interesting, particularly how most low-rated or new players tend to underestimate necromancers and overestimate how imbalanced the game really is. The latter in particular happens in every MMO I’ve ever played.

Balance needs to occur at all levels though, not just the top of the food chain.

If we say 30% of the players at any one time are more newer or inexperienced ones, and another 30% are rather average, if even a couple classes are very poor or imbalanced at this play level, then balance is failing in the game, same as if it was failing at the top level.

The reality with the necro is something like this, it has a high skill ceiling which is almost necessary to be very good with it. And a lot of new players that try the class can’t be successful with it, get frustrated and drop it. We can see many of those type of posts in this very forum. This is a problem, that often high rated players, so called, have too much hubris and don’t consider. It is also a problem if the devs think only like that, in their lust for GW2 to be an E-Sport and only considering balance where sPVP is concerned.

The reality is that balance tends to be pretty unimportant at lower levels. I totally agree that balance should exist in the different modes of the game (WvW, PvE, and sPvP), however there is no way to make an elementalist as easy to play as a warrior. I mean, yesterday I took my level 7 warrior, which I had never used in PvP before, made a 100b build, and was stomping in PvP. Its an insanely easy build to use, even for someone totally unskilled at warriors like I am; you lock someone down and press 2. There is just no way that you can make an elementalist have that kind of accessibility without completely pooping on the balance at higher levels. And you cannot deny that balance is more important at the highest levels of play.

The other problem is that outside of sPvP, the environments are not necessarily friendly to non-homogeneous balance. And the fact is that if something isn’t truly competitive in a meaningful way, balance won’t be as important.

Bhawb it will be important as long as the majority of Anet’s revenue is coming from players occupying levels far below that of the elite. Until or unless GW2 blows up into a massively successful E-Sport with sponsored tourneys and such, those lowly level 30 Necro’s struggling in hot join or WvW are among the players making up the bulk of Anet’s paying customer base.

It’s not good for the game if these players are not having a good play experience getting gibbed over and over by easy play warriors or thieves, because they will quit the class and maybe the game in cases. These are not only your pool of future pro and hardcore players, but also a group that will always remain the majority, most of which will never advance to master status.

Now I agree that inherently you can never make every single profession equally easy to play, and I think its probably on purpose that a couple profs like the warrior are intentionally easy to learn, but I still think the Necro needs some work at lower and mid-levels to be more accessible to most, while right now it is at its most balanced at the top.

Bhawb.7408:

There is just no way that you can make an elementalist have that kind of accessibility without completely pooping on the balance at higher levels.

F3-4-5-F1-3-4-5-F4-3-4-3-5-Pop arcane shield = Ele version of Rage Signet – Bull’s Charge – Frenzy – 100B

Balancing the game at lower levels is impossible. Way too many of the perceived imbalances are people just being terrible at the game. For example, look at how many people still complain about warriors and Hundred Blades, which is extremely easy to prevent and avoid. If ArenaNet nerfed this ability, warriors would be gutted at high-end play, where balance actually matters due to tournament play, because a few people at low-level play have no idea how to move or position.

Besides, low-level players will always find something else to complain about. Bad players have a tendency to blame the game before themselves, which is why they stay bad. The best players are always analyzing how they did and how teammates performed, which is why they consistently improve.

I agree that things should be enjoyable, but I don’t agree on your assessment of the customer base. The paying customer base is located almost exclusively in PvE, with maybe some people who exclusively WvW paying a bit.

WvW is balanced enough except in the very top tier servers. If you are not in the top 1-2 tiers, you will not regularly run into highly coordinated groups, and you can pretty much do what you want. I often WvW on my alts, which are all level 2-20, and do fine just sitting in the back and spamming ranged abilities. I am significantly weaker than what I could be, obviously, but I can still mess around and enjoy it.

PvE is fine right now. That isn’t to say that everything is perfect, but looking at the general population, there isn’t enough min/maxing needed to really worry about what happens when you push classes to their limits. This is why you can run dungeons in greens, or rare MF gear (like I do) and be fine.

Lopez.7369:

Balancing the game at lower levels is impossible. Way too many of the perceived imbalances are people just being terrible at the game. For example, look at how many people still complain about warriors and Hundred Blades, which is extremely easy to prevent and avoid. If ArenaNet nerfed this ability, warriors would be gutted at high-end play, where balance actually matters due to tournament play, because a few people at low-level play have no idea how to move or position.

Besides, low-level players will always find something else to complain about. Bad players have a tendency to blame the game before themselves, which is why they stay bad. The best players are always analyzing how they did and how teammates performed, which is why they consistently improve.

Bad =/= low level play; its just bad, for a example im terrible in wvwvw, i dont even try since i know ill do something wrong (use supply for the wrong blueprint, drop my wells on the zerg retreat or stuff like that) and if ment on a general pvp game scale, i cant play dota on a adept level for kitten, ward wrong so that instead of covering a zone its locked in, cant pull a entire wave to creeps and in general suck at stacking), but all that doesnt mean a person doesnt know the basics, a person who doesnt ward and auto attacks in dota isnt low level, its plain bad, same in GW2, for wvwvw not carrying supply or having a source of movment speed buffing, and for PvP not carrying stun breaks, builds that dont make sense, etc
The game does actually try to teach all the basics (trough pvp and pve), so except for the bad build part, you cannot blame it on a game being unable to be balanced, just stupidity.

Bhawb.7408:

PvE is fine right now. That isn’t to say that everything is perfect, but looking at the general population, there isn’t enough min/maxing needed to really worry about what happens when you push classes to their limits. This is why you can run dungeons in greens, or rare MF gear (like I do) and be fine.

I hope that you know i have to hate you for this part if you do it in a organized group. that isnt going for casual farm…

Andele.1306:

Bhawb.7408:

There is just no way that you can make an elementalist have that kind of accessibility without completely pooping on the balance at higher levels.

F3-4-5-F1-3-4-5-F4-3-4-3-5-Pop arcane shield = Ele version of Rage Signet – Bull’s Charge – Frenzy – 100B

I’m really not sure what your point was with that post?

You just compared a 13 skill sequence involving two attunement swaps to a 4 skill combo available on one weapon, in a conversation about accessibility. So you’re agreeing…?

Andele.1306:

I hope that you know i have to hate you for this part if you do it in a organized group. that isnt going for casual farm…

People actually play PvE other than to casual farm? (Fractals not included, I’m level 2 there). I haven’t found a dungeon hard enough to warrant a real armor set, or in the case of CoE, that armor would actually make a big difference.

Softspoken.2410:

Andele.1306:

Bhawb.7408:

There is just no way that you can make an elementalist have that kind of accessibility without completely pooping on the balance at higher levels.

F3-4-5-F1-3-4-5-F4-3-4-3-5-Pop arcane shield = Ele version of Rage Signet – Bull’s Charge – Frenzy – 100B

I’m really not sure what your point was with that post?

You just compared a 13 skill sequence involving two attunement swaps to a 4 skill combo available on one weapon, in a conversation about accessibility. So you’re agreeing…?

Its the same type of hard hitting combo, only on a full aoe basis, the elementalist is designed to be a attunement swapping class so no, i just pointed out that you can do just as much with the ele as with the warrior, its actually even more accessible than the warrior setup because it doesnt require any utility slots selected and keeps the enemy cc locked for the duration.

Andele.1306:

Softspoken.2410:

Andele.1306:

Bhawb.7408:

There is just no way that you can make an elementalist have that kind of accessibility without completely pooping on the balance at higher levels.

F3-4-5-F1-3-4-5-F4-3-4-3-5-Pop arcane shield = Ele version of Rage Signet – Bull’s Charge – Frenzy – 100B

I’m really not sure what your point was with that post?

You just compared a 13 skill sequence involving two attunement swaps to a 4 skill combo available on one weapon, in a conversation about accessibility. So you’re agreeing…?

Its the same type of hard hitting combo, only on a full aoe basis, the elementalist is designed to be a attunement swapping class so no, i just pointed out that you can do just as much with the ele as with the warrior, its actually even more accessible than the warrior setup because it doesnt require any utility slots selected and keeps the enemy cc locked for the duration.

I think we’re working on different definitions of accessible, but thank you for clarifying.

Lopez.7369:

Not to be condescending, but as someone who was top 5 in World of Warcraft arenas, it always makes me cringe when low-rated players try to argue with high-rated players. It’s fallacious to submit to what an authority figure says, but everything Symbolic said is objectively true to anyone who plays Guild Wars 2 and has experience in high-rated PvP in any MMO.

The rest of the conversation was interesting, particularly how most low-rated or new players tend to underestimate necromancers and overestimate how imbalanced the game really is. The latter in particular happens in every MMO I’ve ever played.

Congratulations. I safely dismissed the rest of, what ever it is that you said, due to being awestruck by your amazingness. Just let me get my carebear pants and tinfoil hat out of the closet so I don’t get swept off my feet by the sheer force of your astounding kitten.
Your opinion that your opinion supersedes someone else’s opinion is still just your opinion.
I had full t3 when you sat in MC asking if you could skin some corehounds. It must make me the god of pve and my opinion being a law to feeble minded sheep that is the rest of the world. If that is so, I declare that your opinion is false and you are a heretic.
See what I did there?

Bhawb.7408:

Andele.1306:

I hope that you know i have to hate you for this part if you do it in a organized group. that isnt going for casual farm…

People actually play PvE other than to casual farm? (Fractals not included, I’m level 2 there). I haven’t found a dungeon hard enough to warrant a real armor set, or in the case of CoE, that armor would actually make a big difference.

Old arah was (i think it gave me some mental issues since i dont even dare to try pug it) and some might agree on New AC 3 (the bubble sometimes doesnt work, SE 3 and numerous other path 3s of explorable mode.
And as you mentioned, Fractals, especially 10+ is pretty much have some decent level armor (minimum 30% weaker then full exotic stats) or you are a burden for the team/getting carried. Not that playing dungeons in such a way is impossible while still trying to make good progress, but it just isnt nice to the other people and your own characters death count.
Ofc there are specific setups and exclusions (like the mesmer in CoF 4 Zerk Warrior farm can be naked for all they care if he can get past the boulders, drop his utilites and elite or the HoTW/CoE Lodestone farm with 2 Guardian or their poor mans alternative 2 Ele with Mesmer and Hunter setups that can go whatever they want and even take another person with them, but those are pretty hardcore into min maxing and ignoring the fun.

Lopez.7369:

I was never bragging. I was qualifying. But I do find it different how many psychological defense mechanisms kick in when someone brings up a game that someone else failed at or never quite grasped.

The difference between a professional sports player and a professional e-sports player is that professional sports are generally much easier to understand. What’s happening on the screen is readily apparent due to the stricter structure of professional sports. That doesn’t apply to Guild Wars 2; most people don’t come close to grasping elements like positioning or playing defensively with offense in MMORPGs. (I would be surprised if 90 percent of GW2 players even thought about proper positioning for one second.)

It would be one thing if the hosts were just playing devil’s advocate. That’s fine. But almost every conversation was ended with one of the hosts saying he disagrees. Silly.

It’s obvious this lack of humility will never change, so I’ll leave it at that.

First, and foremost, I never played WoW. There was nothing to grasp. But every person I have ever seen brag about being good at WoW, sucked playing any other PvP atmosphere in every PvP game I have ever played. Worst, they can’t even raid well in other PvE games that has top raiding content.

WoW, and GW2 have nothing on the eSports scene. If you’re good at gaming, test your might against the high APM Koreans in Starcraft 2, or test your might in League of Legends. WoW, and GW2 are never going to compete on those levels, in eSports, and players who think they’re good could never compete professionally in games like Starcraft 2, and LoL because they really are not good at games like they think they are. Hell you probably laugh at someone clicking, even though Koreans can click, and spread Marines against a baneling rush, losing very few Marines. That’s the difference in a professional eSports player, and you.

You need to open your eyes and realize how weak sPvP is, and why most of the population doesn’t play it, but like myself still play LoL, and Starcraft 2 at a much higher skill level than you will ever attain. GW2 is too easy and this allows for a large portion of the population to be good at it. It’s nothing more than another timesink MMO and is not, and never will be balanced.

I come here to play this game when I need to relax, and play something easy.

Lopez.7369:

Balancing the game at lower levels is impossible. Way too many of the perceived imbalances are people just being terrible at the game. For example, look at how many people still complain about warriors and Hundred Blades, which is extremely easy to prevent and avoid. If ArenaNet nerfed this ability, warriors would be gutted at high-end play, where balance actually matters due to tournament play, because a few people at low-level play have no idea how to move or position.

Besides, low-level players will always find something else to complain about. Bad players have a tendency to blame the game before themselves, which is why they stay bad. The best players are always analyzing how they did and how teammates performed, which is why they consistently improve.

While I readily agree with you that a lot of the perceptions of imbalance is due to bad players and misperceptions of the class schematics in general. I think you misunderstand the point of the podcast. My goal was never to bring someone better than me and have him tell us we suck. My goal was to show how the Necro is perceived on different levels of play.

I am not sure why me disagreeing with another player is perceived as a bad thing. I am going to have a top tier Powermancer on next week to discuss this perception and how it can be changed.

The main point of my podcast is to bring in players at different levels of the game and allow them to state their point in a clear way. Discussions and disagreements are part of building a class. In fact, if I had never said I disagree with you to Symbolic we never would have gotten to the part where he discussed the LichWellBomb build, or discussed how class mechanics force a necro to view position and the ability to escape benefits other classes.

If I don’t say I disagree, he never explains why he feels he is correct. This is the point of a discussion to openly discuss counter points of view and be ready to explain it. Symbolic did a fantastic job explaining his point of view, and I can see how he comes to that.

Besides, it was helpful for beginning necros to get an idea as to how the game changes at different levels, and that Necromancers are not a bad class.

HiSaZuL.2843:

See what I did there?

You proved his points about humility correct, making the thread more cringe-inducing than it already was?

Softspoken.2410:

I think we’re working on different definitions of accessible, but thank you for clarifying.

What you guys are calling ‘accessibility’ I just look at as as mechanical or technical skill – the need to press more buttons at a faster rate than another class.

Furienify.5738:

HiSaZuL.2843:

See what I did there?

You proved his points about humility correct, making the thread more cringe-inducing than it already was?

Softspoken.2410:

I think we’re working on different definitions of accessible, but thank you for clarifying.

What you guys are calling ‘accessibility’ I just look at as as mechanical or technical skill – the need to press more buttons at a faster rate than another class.

As was said by another person already his self proclaimed importance is just that self proclaimed. You and him talking about humility is pot calling kettle black. And since he provided nothing relevant to the topic… again you are trying to make a point but contradict yourself with it. Good job.

Furienify.5738:

Softspoken.2410:

I think we’re working on different definitions of accessible, but thank you for clarifying.

What you guys are calling ‘accessibility’ I just look at as as mechanical or technical skill – the need to press more buttons at a faster rate than another class.

Accessible = easy to be obtained/option with least amount of required resources, its pretty close to the same across all classes in net worth, the learning curve, mechanical knowledge and skill ceiling aint, thus the more keybind clicks needed isnt about balance but reactionary skill and general playstyle of class. A ele is way better on the offensive than on the defensive in terms of combo usage because of their limited reactionary skills outside of Mist, RArmor and Shock Aura, while a necror or warrior for example have a plethora of reactionary options, but unlike the eles they dont work on their offensive setups, causing for problems as to the players view on balance.
Examples of overpowered and just lack of reaction options that got nerfed on a thief:
Int sigil swap backstab into Assassination Signet – Balance problem (low cost semi spammy 20 k hits on damage dealers/instadown)

Well at least thats what i think the logic was behind the nerfs….
Pistolwhip spam – Reaction problem (while the ability was balanced on its own and its resource consumption, lack of overall stability options/fast stun breaks gave it a pubstop effect, kinda like Pudge in Dota if the ward restock is on cooldown)

What Bas is doing is great for the game, and great for the players. The first step for any game, or player base wanting to get into eSports is to open up a dialogue, and talk about it.

Why would you want to get GW2 into eSports at a very high competitive level? Starcraft 2 paid out more than $2 Million last year to its winners, not to mention other deals winners got from companies like Logitech, Gigabyte, and so on wanting them for advertisement.

I’m enjoying these, it’s cool to hear more experienced players talk about the game!