Guild Wars 2

I was thinking of strategies on how to use spectral walk well when out of pure curiosity, I wondered what would happen if I fell a fatal fall. To my surprise, you can in fact use spectral walk mid fall and teleport to said point and land with minimal damage and no knock down.

I was just wondering if this was intentional or if this is something to report.

You’re talking about being able to survive a jump with spectral walk right? Its because teleporting you resets your “falling” counter, so you can negate the majority of the distance you’ve fallen and land safely.

We used to be able to leap from high cliffs, switch to DS to absorb the hit. It would knock us down for a second or two, and remove all our DS, but we’d survive the fall.

sigh I miss being able to do this.

Working as intended

old trick (probably a bug; but hasnt been touched despite being well known)
sWalk is amazingly fun when being chased by a zerg, lead them off a cliff or activate whilst running away and recall at last second (then run the opposite way)

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Intentional. We could probably add a max range but I don’t think it’s necessary at this time since it isn’t really breaking anything. The bug was what Godless described.

Dude, it wasnt a bug, stop acting like it was one that you “fixed” instead of openly saying no we will nerf necros by removing their single hit damage absorb (since all multi hits/aka most burst skills in game would go trough it when the damage to 0LF was delt); for friggas sake it was even added to the game when removing the orbs from wvwvw plain in the patch notes.

Don’t scare the devs away, Andele :P

We got more red posts today than the entire past year.

11/07/2013: Dev Appreciation Day!

flow.6043:

Don’t scare the devs away, Andele :P

We got more red posts today than the entire past year.

11/07/2013: Dev Appreciation Day!

Sorry, sorry, but if anything angers me more than a unreasonable amount of stupidity is a unreasonable amount of denial.
Its the same as the Lich and Plague minion destruction bug, they implemented it into the game and said it to noone nor tried to explain it.

Have to agree with Andele on this one. Stop with the revisionist history, already. The ability to survive a fall of any height using DS was not a bug.

It was nerfed because it had the unintended consequence of allowing necromancers to survive a fall outside the map and see areas they weren’t intended to see. This happened – by accident – when a necro was knocked off the edge of a PvP arena, popped DS, and survived the fall into an area of the map that players weren’t supposed to access.

The knee-jerk response was to nerf DS; not just in its ability to absorb damage from a fall but also damage in excess of remaining life force. Our one defense against one-hit-kill boss mechanics was destroyed in the process and – almost 4 months later – there is still no compensatory defense mechanism to make up for this loss.

I’m sorry, how did a debate about spectral walk allowing falls get turned into a talk about death shroud, when that was never in question at all?

OP’s question had exactly nothing to do with Death Shroud.

I use it all the time in WvW. It also has the funny graphics side effect of sliding across the ground on your face when running after the fall. Oh the rocks and splinters!

Andele.1306:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Intentional. We could probably add a max range but I don’t think it’s necessary at this time since it isn’t really breaking anything. The bug was what Godless described.

Dude, it wasnt a bug, stop acting like it was one that you “fixed” instead of openly saying no we will nerf necros by removing their single hit damage absorb (since all multi hits/aka most burst skills in game would go trough it when the damage to 0LF was delt); for friggas sake it was even added to the game when removing the orbs from wvwvw plain in the patch notes.

Hmm rude. Just sayin’ – Miranda Sings

Bhawb.7408:

I’m sorry, how did a debate about spectral walk allowing falls get turned into a talk about death shroud, when that was never in question at all?

OP’s question had exactly nothing to do with Death Shroud.

My fault, sorry!

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

…

It was nerfed because it had the unintended consequence of allowing necromancers to survive a fall outside the map and see areas they weren’t intended to see. This happened – by accident – when a necro was knocked off the edge of a PvP arena, popped DS, and survived the fall into an area of the map that players weren’t supposed to access.

…

Actually, you can probably still do this with spectral walk, so I don’t think that was the reason it was changed, just the mechanic was hilighted by that use of it.

I do know it wasn’t a bug, as I’m fairly sure it was patched in as intentional before being patched back out again.

…

Anyway, back on topic – It is a great escape move, spectral walk is pretty much the only skill we have to play with that can help us escape – under very specific circumstances.

Awesome, gonna have fun doing JPs with this!

Dredlord.8076:

Bhawb.7408:

I’m sorry, how did a debate about spectral walk allowing falls get turned into a talk about death shroud, when that was never in question at all?

OP’s question had exactly nothing to do with Death Shroud.

If a dev was willing to comment on it in this thread it is obviously fair game so shut your pie hole and take the topic nazzi attitude somewhere else.

Hmm rude. Just sayin’ – Miranda Sings

I made a post a while back about how that change with death shroud put the nail in the coffin on our defense for PvE. A Dev responded “Please try the changes first before you pass judgement” or something along those lines. Well. I’ve tried the changes.. And My opinion of the change has only soured.

Lily.1935:

I made a post a while back about how that change with death shroud put the nail in the coffin on our defense for PvE. A Dev responded “Please try the changes first before you pass judgement” or something along those lines. Well. I’ve tried the changes.. And My opinion of the change has only soured.

Honestly its not even that much of a change if they continue the skill instead of instakill type of encounters (or at least make the instakills avoidable with foresight and always visible and under full control, not buggy and fighting with the interface like liadri was), its more a thing of principle. The changes to Swalk/Sarmor and the Dhuumfire thing were way worse for necros overall.

I call it Sky Diving.
I jumped from the top of mount maelstrom and landed inside the volcano without taking a single point of damage or even being put in combat from the fall. XD

(after a couple tries)

If your timing is perfect, you can ‘reset’ the fall damage close enough to the ground to not actually take damage at all.

I’ve used it in the Obsidian sanctum before, too. Jumped down a ‘nearly lethal’ fall while being chased by three guys who were guarding the entrance. Used Spectral Walk/Return, landed at full health while the three of them landed at ~%10.
Heh, they did not survive…

You know, the more you guys talk about it, the more likely it’s going to be changed/removed right?

Sorry for the derail but I am surprised by some reactions regarding the DS fix. How is having 200 points left of DS, taking a 6K hit and but soaking up the entire hit balanced or not bugged? You shouldn’t have more points in DS than you are given, right? Or is there something I’m missing?

Kashijikito.1864:

You know, the more you guys talk about it, the more likely it’s going to be changed/removed right?

Well….I somehow doubt this, because Arenanet just told us that this WAS intentional; I don’t see how being able to do this is particularly unfair or “cheap” in any way. It’s just super fun when you’re in the mad realm and you fall out of the sky and still survive. People are like, “Huh? What did you just do???”

leovuo.5046:

Sorry for the derail but I am surprised by some reactions regarding the DS fix. How is having 200 points left of DS, taking a 6K hit and but soaking up the entire hit balanced or not bugged? You shouldn’t have more points in DS than you are given, right? Or is there something I’m missing?

Its a fun little showing of Psychology.

Think of it this way, you walk up to a kid. They are normally perfectly happy. Now give them a piece of candy. Now take the candy away from them.

Guess what? They aren’t as happy anymore. Even though they are exactly where they started. Except psychologically it has. Because you took something from them. It doesn’t matter that they were first given something, that it was never theirs to begin with, all that matters is that something was taken away.

The only reason this is such a big deal is because it was something fun and really useful we had that was taken away.

Chuck Nizzle.6283:

Kashijikito.1864:

You know, the more you guys talk about it, the more likely it’s going to be changed/removed right?

Well….I somehow doubt this, because Arenanet just told us that this WAS intentional; I don’t see how being able to do this is particularly unfair or “cheap” in any way. It’s just super fun when you’re in the mad realm and you fall out of the sky and still survive. People are like, “Huh? What did you just do???”

The same guy has said something was intended only to be corrected by another dev later. So not the most reliable source as of now.

Honestly, though, this trick has been pretty widely known for months. I’ve been using it to res people that die in Cliffside Fractal, for example (or to reset when the stupid wind knocks me off). I’ve been using it as an escape mechanism in WvW.

Honestly, since the skill is (now) pretty useless in combat, it’s wonderful that it has so many uses outside.

Andele.1306:

Lily.1935:

I made a post a while back about how that change with death shroud put the nail in the coffin on our defense for PvE. A Dev responded “Please try the changes first before you pass judgement” or something along those lines. Well. I’ve tried the changes.. And My opinion of the change has only soured.

Honestly its not even that much of a change if they continue the skill instead of instakill type of encounters (or at least make the instakills avoidable with foresight and always visible and under full control, not buggy and fighting with the interface like liadri was), its more a thing of principle. The changes to Swalk/Sarmor and the Dhuumfire thing were way worse for necros overall.

so basically, if PvE didn’t happen it wouldn’t have harmed anything.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Intentional. We could probably add a max range but I don’t think it’s necessary at this time since it isn’t really breaking anything. The bug was what Godless described.

Funny how you “fix” something that wasn’t really breaking anything and yet, ignore every other bug and even going so far to change the tooltips and say everything is “working as intended” -_-

leovuo.5046:

Sorry for the derail but I am surprised by some reactions regarding the DS fix. How is having 200 points left of DS, taking a 6K hit and but soaking up the entire hit balanced or not bugged? You shouldn’t have more points in DS than you are given, right? Or is there something I’m missing?

The missing part is parity.

• If you’re a guardian and pop Aegis, doesn’t matter if you’re hit for an amount in excess of your health pool. You’ll negate the full impact, be it 10 points of damage or 10 million.

• If you’re an ele and pop Mist Form, doesn’t matter if you’re hit for an amount in excess of your health pool. You’ll negate the full impact, be it 10 points of damage or 10 million.

• If you’re an engi and pop Elxir S, doesn’t matter if you’re hit for an amount in excess of your health pool. You’ll negate the full impact, be it 10 points of damage or 10 million.

• If you’re a warrior and pop Shield Stance, doesn’t matter if you’re hit for an amount in excess of your health pool. You’ll negate the full impact, be it 10 points of damage or 10 million.

• If you’re a mesmer and pop Blurred Frenzy, doesn’t matter if you’re hit for an amount in excess of your health pool. You’ll negate the full impact, be it 10 points of damage or 10 million.

• If you’re a ranger and pop Power Stab, doesn’t matter if you’re hit for an amount in excess of your health pool. You’ll negate the full impact, be it 10 points of damage or 10 million.

• If you’re a thief and pop Flanking Strike, doesn’t matter if you’re hit for an amount in excess of your health pool. You’ll negate the full impact, be it 10 points of damage or 10 million.

• If you’re a necro and pop Death Shroud, doesn’t matter if you’re hit for an amount in excess of your health pool. You’ll negate the full imp…Oh, wait…right…that doesn’t work anymore. What’s more is, there’s absolutely nothing else in the necro’s repertoire to compensate for that loss. Nothing. We have absolutely zero mitigation against boss one-hit-kills or player burst attacks.

The extra health from Death Shroud is not compensation against one-hit-kills when that damage bleeds through to our regular health pool. The ability to use Death Shroud to absorb those kind of hits was our only defense against them; we have no access to block, evade, invulnerability, or vigor (vigor can be had in a very gimmicky set up that eats up a couple utilities and which nobody I know equips or uses exclusively for that purpose).

What’s more is, it was never a broken mechanic or OP to begin with. No one was QQ-ing on the forum, “Necros so OP because they can absorb a single boss one-hit-KO at the expense of all remaining life force.” It was an unjustified nerf of our lone one-hit-KO mitigation.

Now, if at the same time they nerfed our DS absorb ability, they had nerfed all other blocks, evades, etc. by giving them an internal damage cap such that any damage in excess of that limit would then bleed over to the player’s health bar, then…maybe…it could be called balanced. If Aegis was limited to blocking only 10,000 points of damage instead of an unlimited amount, for example.

But that’s not the scenario we have. Every class except necro has access to a skill or skills which grant immunity to all damage for their duration. That’s on top of their superior disengage and mobility when compared to necros. Necros have nothing; if we’re out of endurance and get hit by a one-hit-KO, we’re dead.

And sadly that happens in PVE a lot. We only have our 2 dodges, and there are plenty of situations where 2 dodges are not enough. We’re not talking about something as simple as Lupicus here, such boss encounters are easy to memorize. What we’re talking about is the general chaos that is PVE, in which champions/bosses spam devastating attacks left and right, and you run out of dodges fast. Having a panic button for that split second invulnerability is essential, and it’s absurd that we are the only class that cannot do this.

I run into this problem on a regular basis, where huge mobs just spam immobilize and stuns all over the place, and every other class simply pops their invulnerability and runs off unscathed. This is why necros are abysmal for dungeons. Invulnerability also makes you immune to new conditions, and Death Shroud does not do this. That is why necros get rooted in place and turned into a fancy red Rorschach test on the floor in dungeons and in wvw.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And sadly that happens in PVE a lot. We only have our 2 dodges, and there are plenty of situations where 2 dodges are not enough. We’re not talking about something as simple as Lupicus here, such boss encounters are easy to memorize. What we’re talking about is the general chaos that is PVE, in which champions/bosses spam devastating attacks left and right, and you run out of dodges fast. Having a panic button for that split second invulnerability is essential, and it’s absurd that we are the only class that cannot do this.

I run into this problem on a regular basis, where huge mobs just spam immobilize and stuns all over the place, and every other class simply pops their invulnerability and runs off unscathed. This is why necros are abysmal for dungeons. Invulnerability also makes you immune to new conditions, and Death Shroud does not do this. That is why necros get rooted in place and turned into a fancy red Rorschach test on the floor in dungeons and in wvw.

Well you can survive lupi even with just 2 dodges, problem is you have to play very very selfishly and ignore your allies when someone gets downed to keep the focus on positioning, making sure to be a fair amount away from the red circles (since ofc they aint representative of the actual damage impact) and keeping LF up while dealing good enough damage.

Thief can climb like spiderman with bow, just saying.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Intentional. We could probably add a max range but I don’t think it’s necessary at this time since it isn’t really breaking anything. The bug was what Godless described.

I can’t wait to get in game and check if Ride the Lightning on my ele will do the same.

Dredlord.8076:

the cold hard truth right now is even though that mechanic was not OP and should have been left alone for so many reasons (plenty mentioned in this thread alone)

the devs will NEVER change it back because it will just prove how clueless and inept they have been with necro balance yet another time and they just aren’t professional enough to admit a mistake like that.

In the interest of coming to a workable solution in the spirit of the new Collaborative Development initiative, perhaps the devs may consider reverting this nerf as a show of good faith. A demonstration that they are listening to our concerns and willing to make suggested changes based on the 1,000’s of collective hours the necro community has put into the class.

No one here is asking for a godmode button. We’ve deconstructed the argument that reverting Death Shroud to re-permit us to absorb one-hit-KOs would be OP. We’ve demonstrated it was not OP in its previous state and would balance well with our profession’s weaknesses with regards to lack of mobility and no access to blocks, evades, etc.

For our part, perhaps we’d be willing to compromise on the fall damage issue. As fun as it was to survive a fall from any height, there are legitimate concerns regarding this questionable functionality. Since the problem with Death Shroud appeared to revolve around surviving falls off the map rather than absorbing one-hit-kills, then simply eliminate Death Shroud’s ability to survive those falls. It appears this is already possible given the following quote:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Intentional. We could probably add a max range but I don’t think it’s necessary at this time since it isn’t really breaking anything. The bug was what Godless described.

The quote was in reference to Spectral Walk. However, if they can code a max fall range for Spectral Walk, I would think it possible to do the same for Death Shroud, yes? Would that not neatly solve the issue? We regain our sole option for absorbing boss OHKOs but we can no longer use DS to survive falls of unlimited height. Sound fair? Balanced?

Wha’d’ya say, devs? Looks like a golden opportunity to actually put the Collaborative Development process into practice.

Advantages:

• Necros’ return to being more viable in dungeons/boss fights without becoming OP.

• The code for it already exists. It really shouldn’t require a huge time or effort investment to revert it.

• By a dev’s own admission, it’s possible to place max range limiters on skills that mitigate fall damage, addressing the issue of DS necros falling outside the map.

• It’s an aknowledgment of the necro community’s concerns and a move towards taking the Collaborative Development process beyond mere words and putting it into practice. The good-will this would engender within the community would go a long way towards mending some broken fences.

• It’s a recognition that the necro doesn’t fit a cookie-cutter mold. We’re different; we play different, our mechanics are different, we have a counter-intuitive playstyle. We may arrive at the same destination (one-hit-KO negation) as other professions, but we travel there via a completely different path.
  This one concession would be a first step in acknowledging that, when it comes to designing the necro, you have to think outside the coffin. We have weaknesses no other class has; thus, we need strengths that no other class has, either, if we’re to remain balanced and viable.

• We’ll stop nagging you about it

Disadvantages:

• None that I can see. It wasn’t OP before, it won’t be OP if reverted. If anything, it would be a move towards parity in an area of the game where we’ve been sub-par for so long.

Balance doesn’t have to deal with making us feel good about it. If they want to revert the changes, if they feel that is a good choice balance wise, then go for it. But go off the principle of it being the best balance decision, and you can make your arguments (which are perfectly valid) for why it should come back.

If its the best decision balance wise, make the change back, after seeing that we just need the change and the fact that we blatantly lack any remotely similar defensive tool. Or don’t, because there are plans in the future of making that. But do it based on balance.

Bhawb.7408:

Balance doesn’t have to deal with making us feel good about it.

If it does, it’s just icing on the cake. The issue is, as you point out, about balance. I believe I and others have made an argument in favor of said balance. However, whether that balance is achieved through a DS reversion or some as-yet-to-be introduced new defense mechanic isn’t as relevant as that the balance is achieved.

If that can be done in a manor that leaves the impression they’re engaging in Collaborative Development with us, all the better. Especially for a class where a segment of the community has felt ignored and neglected for quite some time now.

Try standing on the edge of a cliff/skyhammer wait for the melee’s to do a leap spam..

step back…

lol’s to be had..

Of course, if this is a good balance decision, then obviously they should go for it. Everyone agrees something needs to be done for our defense, its up to them to figure out what.

But guess what. Every class in the game feels neglected. Warriors feel neglected, Guardians feel neglected, it doesn’t matter what class you play there is a large portion of the community that feels like they have been slighted, we aren’t unique.

leovuo.5046:

Sorry for the derail but I am surprised by some reactions regarding the DS fix. How is having 200 points left of DS, taking a 6K hit and but soaking up the entire hit balanced or not bugged? You shouldn’t have more points in DS than you are given, right? Or is there something I’m missing?

Why don’t necromancers have any invul skills? But every other class has it or a block/distortion ect? This was our only thing we had that was like what other classes have and it was taken from us. Now you know what you are missing.

Bhawb.7408:

Guardians feel neglected,

Don’t know why they would? They get a buff every patch lol.

They only have one general build type in every single game mode: tanky support. And actually, they really don’t ever get changed, all that happens is things are slightly shifted around, and the best tanky support build changes. But that is basically all Guardians have ever been, a tanky support.

Bhawb.7408:

They only have one general build type in every single game mode: tanky support. And actually, they really don’t ever get changed, all that happens is things are slightly shifted around, and the best tanky support build changes. But that is basically all Guardians have ever been, a tanky support.

So hammer cc, symbol spam, meditation leap and the kinda beta infamous retaliation of fire builds are all non existent? Like ok the 3 base (shout) builds are the most popular, but thats because they give op returns for the investment thus allow the player to do whatever the *ck they want. Guardians aint getting anything because they are the current definition/stepping stone to very good.

Bhawb.7408:

I’m sorry, how did a debate about spectral walk allowing falls get turned into a talk about death shroud, when that was never in question at all?

OP’s question had exactly nothing to do with Death Shroud.

Should be obvious that spectral walk allows you to do basically same thing except not unintentionally like when you fall off from skyhammer. DS was probably fixed because this caused you to take very long to respawn, not particularly because you could get there, I don’t see any other possible game breaking reason.

Just saying

Bhawb.7408:

They only have one general build type in every single game mode: tanky support.

… guardian? lol?
every halfway decent pve guardian runs dps builds (the two metas are sw+focus/x and hammer/x… sw/focus having higher damage -slightly- and blinds, hammer having perma prot – which;imo; is only usefull in certain situations… sw/focus can provide protection bursts when needed with virtues and shouts)… only bad guards play ‘tanky’ (because you can support/control just as effectively as other builds -minus boon duration… which doesnt really matter- except you kill stuff faster… so your team takes less damage)

Just a note to other necros: Use Spectral Walk and Wurm more often, I’ve just been accused of cheating in WvW because “Necros can’t teleport like that”. Gotta bust that myth! Peoples think we only have Signet of Spite and Epi as skills.

Panhauramix.2784:

Just a note to other necros: Use Spectral Walk and Wurm more often, I’ve just been accused of cheating in WvW because “Necros can’t teleport like that”. Gotta bust that myth! Peoples think we only have Signet of Spite and Epi as skills.

WvWvW is not a point of balance here, its pve (where wurm dies in now kittens and is a very bad utility even if you have the time to cast it like with lupi since it can draw away mobs you wanna kite, proc boss effects like on hit damage/grub pre headcount and swalk is plain worthless since the nerf) and pvp (where wurm is losing a utility slot which is kinda okish in case of condi necros if you wanna be selfish and swalk is mostly worthless since nerf). Please dont compare a game mode where mantra heal mesmer is something relatively op since you get a portal kitten and a aoe has a efficient 1.5k regeneration on them.
On old spectral walk it could be argued we had enough mobility since its defensive use allowed continued kite and sustain via lf.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Intentional. We could probably add a max range but I don’t think it’s necessary at this time since it isn’t really breaking anything. The bug was what Godless described.

How would a max range change anyting? You hit the button twice in mid air, one click shortly after the other. I’m guessing the range would be max 100 if you do it properly. You guys are taking the fun out of the game you barely seem to know.

Monkey Fritz.9052:

I call it Sky Diving.
I jumped from the top of mount maelstrom and landed inside the volcano without taking a single point of damage or even being put in combat from the fall. XD

(after a couple tries)

If your timing is perfect, you can ‘reset’ the fall damage close enough to the ground to not actually take damage at all.

I’ve used it in the Obsidian sanctum before, too. Jumped down a ‘nearly lethal’ fall while being chased by three guys who were guarding the entrance. Used Spectral Walk/Return, landed at full health while the three of them landed at ~%10.
Heh, they did not survive…

Sounds awesome :o got to remember that next time.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Honestly, since the skill is (now) pretty useless in combat, it’s wonderful that it has so many uses outside.

I don’t have much knowledge about sPvP, but in WvW, it can be awesome in the right terrain. Do it in an outer corner in a keep or the ruins and you can really loose people.

I guess this is what the devs meant so long ago when they said that the necro is probably the hardest class to master.

Coffietire.2783:

I guess this is what the devs meant so long ago when they said that the necro is probably the hardest class to master.

What they should have said instead, is that the necro is probably the hardest class to balance.

I personally think it’s a very poor defense of bad balance decisions, to tell the necromancer community that maybe they’re just not good enough at playing their class. What a steaming pile of Dolyak droppings!

I wonder how many of them actually play a necromancer. Because it is the only class I play. I’ve never even played a different class in GW1. I always play a necromancer. I can understand difficulties in balancing a class that is so radically different in pvp and pve. But don’t tell us it’s a learn-to-play issue, developers! The current meta is a direct result of the limited number of better alternatives. It is emergent game play, and ultimately the designers are responsible.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Intentional. We could probably add a max range but I don’t think it’s necessary at this time since it isn’t really breaking anything. The bug was what Godless described.

I just want to ask a practical question – what do you mean by max range? That wouldn’t do anything the way I use to cliff dive, since I just double tap it right before I hit the ground. I don’t see what max range has to do with anything.

“We could probably add a max range”

no.. just.. No.. never… just the thought…. No..njet, nee, nein, nada, niente, no, non..

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

“We could probably add a max range”

no.. just.. No.. never… just the thought…. No..njet, nee, nein, nada, niente, no, non..

I don’t actually think he knew what he was talking about. Adding a max range to Walk wouldn’t change this “bug” at all, because you can just quickly double tap it right before you land. In fact, even if they added a max fall range, it shouldn’t apply either, because the reason this works is that the second activation of sWalk resets your “fall counter”.