(edited by Unpredictability.4086)
Build Variety Underwater
This is a theme for the entire game. I don’t know of any profession that has any real variety for underwater combat.
Underwater was either a gimmick or unfinished. Who knows, in future expansions we may see it fleshed out a bit more.
It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.
Some traits for others classes (engi/mesmer comes to mind) boosts range/reduces cooldown of both water and underwater weapons at the same time.
Some minor and major traits even reduces cooldown and gives a freebie, while we pay premium just to reduces cooldown. We certainly could get a bit more love on the “fancy and attractive” trait department, and even more kudos if that would make water combat more exciting!
80’s: Razdhül Necro/Desire Mesmer/ Ykarys War/ Yphrit Ele/
Panhauramix Guardian/Pistoleros Engineer/ Orbite Thief
Gates of Madness – Leader of Homicide Volontaire [HV]
Panhauramix Guardian/Pistoleros Engineer/ Orbite Thief
Gates of Madness – Leader of Homicide Volontaire [HV]
Water combat is unbalanced and unfinished.
Not only necro has this issue, a lot of other class have it.
Like a well centric necro, a flamethrower centric engineer is done under water.
Many core traits don’t work underwater, and it’s a shame.
I would concentrate on land bugs before these, because underwater combat is gimmick and a part I hate from the game.
Try fighting a perma evade thief underwater.
Rotthen (Necro) / Zhyx (Engineer) /Inglorious Beasterd (Ranger)
Server : Anvil Rock (Since Release!) [SOLO]
Server : Anvil Rock (Since Release!) [SOLO]
Arenanet should really make separate trait lines for underwater so that a well based necro would have a different build just for underwater. I don’t understand why they never did this, it would make sense to do because most builds have ground fighting in mind not underwater.
Underwater fighting really isn’t that big of a deal. There is only one sPvP map where it is important (and that isn’t part of the tPvP rotation for good reason), and very limited importance in WvW. Even in PvE, underwater is more of a side thing. It is in some of the main story and is part of levelling/exploring, but to my knowledge it isn’t in the more “hardcore” PvE, and as such I don’t see it as too much of an issue.
That isn’t to say that it is perfectly done, it could use a lot of work (although allowing a different trait set would pretty easily fix most of it, as with the correct build the classes are far more balanced), but I’m guessing it isn’t anything near high-priority for them.
Guys, I do get that underwater in general is more limited, that’s what that last paragraph was for, but I was just trying to show exactly how much, and in the context of Necromancer. Just to quantify it more.
Limited Traits
There are also some traits that, while useful, are limited in their use underwater.
- Chilling Darkness – no direct way to cause blind underwater. You need to be blinded and transfer it to them via Plague Signet or Plague Blast (not sure if that triggers blindness first though or it transfers it first)
Not true. Death Shroud #2 pulses AoE Blind and Poison on a pretty short recharge. Haunt on the Shadow Fiend also causes blind in a small AoE (much longer recharge, though).
- All minion skills (Death Nova, Fetid Consumption, Flesh of the Master, Necromatic Corruption, Protection of the Horde, Training of the Master, Vampiric Master) – there are only 2 minions you can equip underwater (half of them are disabled). As such, you cannot make full use of these traits.
Seeing as how there are 6 minion skills and only two are disabled, you can still make very strong use of these traits. 3 utilities and your healing skill (and jagged horrors) means a lot of minions.
- Dark Armor – This trait basically affects only 1 skill underwater – Life Transfer, making it very limited in it’s use. (It also affects Life Leech too, but drowning is a state one is not meant to play in for a long so time, so I don’t even consider it IMO as it’s so infrequent).
Spear 2 and Trident 5 I believe are both channels. I could be mistaken, since I never use this trait anyway.
Necros are the strongest of any class underwater (rangers being a close second), so I don’t feel that we really need much in the way of buffs. Having some of those traits reference our underwater weapons, however, would be most welcome.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
First off: an interesting thread. As you and others have pointed out, build variation underwater is a good bit more limited than on land. I’m not totally sure how to respond to it yet as a whole. My major concern is how well builds transfer between land and water: Wellomancers are a shining example of not transferring, but some other builds make the transition more capably.
- Dark Armor – This trait basically affects only 1 skill underwater – Life Transfer, making it very limited in it’s use. (It also affects Life Leech too, but drowning is a state one is not meant to play in for a long so time, so I don’t even consider it IMO as it’s so infrequent).
Spear 2 and Trident 5 I believe are both channels. I could be mistaken, since I never use this trait anyway.
I’m testing it in the Heart of the Mists now, and I’m not getting any bonus toughness on either of those skills. Both of those are very strong candidates for being channeled skills though, so I’m actually adding it to the bug list.
Also, chilling darkness is very useful in combination with plague form, which you’re guaranteed to have underwater.
I’d vote to put chilling darkness and the minion skills solidly on the ‘useful underwater’ side of the equation, but I agree that dark armor is kind of questionable. Yes it’s toughness at a time you really need it, but it only shows up after you’re downed, which is a significant limitation compared to the on-land scenario.
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
Limited Traits
There are also some traits that, while useful, are limited in their use underwater.
- Chilling Darkness – no direct way to cause blind underwater. You need to be blinded and transfer it to them via Plague Signet or Plague Blast (not sure if that triggers blindness first though or it transfers it first)
Not true. Death Shroud #2 pulses AoE Blind and Poison on a pretty short recharge. Haunt on the Shadow Fiend also causes blind in a small AoE (much longer recharge, though).
Thanks, I’ll remove that. I forgot about plague form too.
- All minion skills (Death Nova, Fetid Consumption, Flesh of the Master, Necromatic Corruption, Protection of the Horde, Training of the Master, Vampiric Master) – there are only 2 minions you can equip underwater (half of them are disabled). As such, you cannot make full use of these traits.
Seeing as how there are 6 minion skills and only two are disabled, you can still make very strong use of these traits. 3 utilities and your healing skill (and jagged horrors) means a lot of minions.
What are the other 2? I was thinking of only healing + utility skills, so 4, unless I’m missing something.
- Dark Armor – This trait basically affects only 1 skill underwater – Life Transfer, making it very limited in it’s use. (It also affects Life Leech too, but drowning is a state one is not meant to play in for a long so time, so I don’t even consider it IMO as it’s so infrequent).
Spear 2 and Trident 5 I believe are both channels. I could be mistaken, since I never use this trait anyway.
I used the list of channeling skills to determine this than actually doing it.
As you and others have pointed out, build variation underwater is a good bit more limited than on land. I’m not totally sure how to respond to it yet as a whole.
Do you use Excel? You could duplicate what I did with other classes to find information, and if you want to go even further, you could plugging the data into Tableau for power line comparisons.
(edited by Unpredictability.4086)
What are the other 2? I was thinking of only healing + utility skills, so 4, unless I’m missing something.
There’s 4 minion utility skills, only one is blocked underwater (Flesh Wurm) so you can still use the other 3. (Shadow fiend, bone fiend, bone minions)
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
The fact that necromancers only get one elite skill that works underwater doesnt really help much either.
The fact that necromancers only get one elite skill that works underwater doesnt really help much either.
That’s not limited to Necros though.
Engineer is the only class that has more than 1 Elite that can be used underwater (Though doesn’t help that their Elites are really bad anyway…)
On Topic:
As far as build variety underwater, it’s not too bad you’ve got nice Power build support (Spear does nice Direct Damage as well as Trident 5) there’s Condition build support (Trident, Death Shroud, improved cast times on Epidemic and Blood is Power) Minion build support (Blood Fiend, Bone Fiend, Shadow Fiend and Bone Minions are all available underwater, with massively improved cast times)
The main thing that’s missing is any of the wells (No wells can be used underwater…) but I don’t think that’s too big a drawback considering how fluid everything else is (With lower cast times than on land, nice weapon skills that feel smooth and are decently strong)
“Pull the trigger, move out ahead,
There’s two kinds of people… The quick and the dead”
There’s two kinds of people… The quick and the dead”
Engineer is the only class that has more than 1 Elite that can be used underwater
Warriors, rangers and mesmers would like to say hello.
I really hope they get Flesh Golem to work in some fashion underwater. I can see why Lich Form would be so hard to make function though… (3 of the 5 skills are ground-targeted.)
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
I’ve had my flesh golem chase somebody running into the water and drown. Not cool…
Warriors, rangers and mesmers would like to say hello.
Well, at least mesmers didn’t have any underwater elite at launch.
Engineers are really versatile though, most of their kits work, turrets work, elixirs work in a way. Some stuff is even more useful underwater, e.g. all the grenate kit skills just hit your selected target. Really I don’t understand how engineers can have all those combo fields but necros can’t use their wells.
I actually think necros are really strong underwater. They do lack synergy, pretty much every land build has to give up a significant number of skills underwater, but they’re still both powerful and easy to play. While it’s annoying to see that there’s apparently no clear design for this class, at the same time I don’t really feel like complaining. My necro is pretty much my favourite underwater character.