Guild Wars 2

Coming back from playing my engineer for 2+ month, without logging on my necromancer, I just started back playing it 2 weeks ago, stopped because of patch, then this week I’m back on it.

So my point of view come from 2+month of undernumbered roaming in WvW. Like litteraly charging in zerg and spanking them. I die a lot.

Right now, and it’s my personal opinion, I feel like my engineer is better then my necromancer in nearly every aspect.

Note : Take into consideration that I’m not used to my necromancer yet, so it add weight into my preference.

With my engineer, I feel like I can do most thing my necro can do, but better. Let’s just take a HGH build with toolkit and a Master of terror build.

I finally got an engineer to 80 a few days ago. I haven’t had the chance to get exotic gear for it yet, using all rare armor and green accessories, but this entire post is pretty much my experience too. Only been playing engineer for about a day in WvW, and yet I’m able to roam a hell of a lot more effectively than I ever could on my necro. I have no idea what I’m doing on my engineer and have no experience, yet I manage to kill people a lot easier. Even managed to 1v2 two level 80s, and one of them was a necro. Engineers definitely do condition damage a lot better than necromancers from what I’ve seen.

Engineers survivability is also light years better than that of necromancers. Cleaning Formula 409 is insane, and HGH is just stupid OP. God, those might stacks. Having 2 invulnerability buttons on relatively short cool downs is also insane. Plus I have an actual stability or stealth option. I was amazed to say the least. I honestly did not expect the engineer to be this effective at condition damage.

Kravick you still keep focusing on condition builds for some reason. Necros have some of the highest AoE damage in the game and I’m not talking about using epidemic. Our wells can do some pretty extreme damage when stacked on a group (4k+ per tick with well of corruption and suffering combined). Staff autoattacks pierce and can easily crit for over 2k on anything in it’s path. Death shroud 4 can channel up to 10k to multiple targets.

As far as single target damage, my final attack of the dagger chain can crit for anywhere between 5-6k. Try and tell me that is crap especially considering how rapidly daggers hit. My death shroud #1 also crits for 6-7k.

Power/crit berserker builds do massive damage and I would consider a glass cannon necro build to have more survivabilty than a glass cannon warrior.

I just don’t get what kind of gear and builds that you are using that obviously suck so bad.

kidbs.8920:

Kravick you still keep focusing on condition builds for some reason. Necros have some of the highest AoE damage in the game and I’m not talking about using epidemic. Our wells can do some pretty extreme damage when stacked on a group (4k+ per tick with well of corruption and suffering combined). Staff autoattacks pierce and can easily crit for over 2k on anything in it’s path. Death shroud 4 can channel up to 10k to multiple targets.

As far as single target damage, my final attack of the dagger chain can crit for anywhere between 5-6k. Try and tell me that is crap especially considering how rapidly daggers hit. My death shroud #1 also crits for 6-7k.

Power/crit berserker builds do massive damage and I would consider a glass cannon necro build to have more survivabilty than a glass cannon warrior.

I just don’t get what kind of gear and builds that you are using that obviously suck so bad.

I have never, ever, seen these kinds of numbers, even when running full berserkers gear. Are you hitting up leveled people or something to achieve those kinds of numbers? You should never base your damage on anyone that has a green arrow on their name.

At best, well of suffering crits for approx 1k-1.5k per pulse, well of corruption about 600. Life blast crits, at best, for approx. 4.5k against a glass target. Dagger final attack will crit, against a glass thief, for 3.5k at most. Maybe 4k if you manage to get the vuln to stack up a bit. Death Shroud 4 I’ve only ever seen go as high as 4k on a single target. I can’t speak for staff auto, highest I’ve ever seen that hit for is 1.4k. That damage is actually rather low when you start comparing them to the numbers other classes can put out on a consistent basis.

The numbers above are when I tried using a full berserker’s armor set plus accessories using a 30/20/0/0/20 build. The damage wasn’t much higher than using knights and the survivability was horrible. I literally got Steal -> CnD -> Backstab comboed by a thief and went straight to downed state using that build. Not that great of a trade off if you ask me. Obviously I don’t use that build any more.

Again, if you’re basing your numbers off up leveled targets, you’re doing it wrong. That is not an accurate assessment of the kinds of numbers anyone is capable of putting out.

Now go play a staff elementalist and come back and talk to me about AoE.

Kravick, why are you even on this forum. All you do is hate on the Necromancer. I have seen the numbers the players are talking about, and we are pulling it off easily. If you are having issues, the Necro isn’t for you.

I swear everytime you visit the board it’s only to troll about how great you are on everything and the Necro sucks. When it’s obvious to everyone who plays the class competitively that the issue is you, not the class.

Bas.7406:

Kravick, why are you even on this forum. All you do is hate on the Necromancer. I have seen the numbers the players are talking about, and we are pulling it off easily. If you are having issues, the Necro isn’t for you.

I swear everytime you visit the board it’s only to troll about how great you are on everything and the Necro sucks. When it’s obvious to everyone who plays the class competitively that the issue is you, not the class.

Sorry you feel that way, but thats the whole point of a forum. If there is never a place to voice our grievances, then nothing improves. This class in its current state is a shambling mess.

But honestly, I could say the same thing about you. All I ever hear from you is how necromancers are the perfect class and that if anyone has a problem with it, its the players fault for simply “not getting it” and that its “not for you” bullkitten. You out right attack people for not thinking that everything is A-OK with this class. I also call bullkitten on the numbers you’re seeing. I’ve been playing this class since frickin release and I have never EVER seen numbers that high on the skills listed unless I’m attacking up leveled players in WvW. They don’t even get that high in PVE. On what mobs are you seeing 10k life transfers on?! Seriously, show me.

As I keep saying, there is a REASON this class is one of the least played right now. It brings absolutely nothing unique to the table in terms of game play and is being held back by a bad game mechanic the devs think is too powerful or something. Why do you think there are so many people calling to have DS removed or reworked into something that will stop having us being held back?

I know you and a few others like to claim this class is hard to play, but its really not. The rotations are simple enough, the skills are pretty straight forward. The problem is its implementation and cast times. Every other class is doing the same thing we are, but instantly, or near instantly. Cast times not included, etc. Also the fact that I can pick up another class and seemingly do better with it, as I talk about with engineers, without having any prior experience with it, suggests that something is not right with this class. Necromancer is not a hard class to play, and that hard to master thing isn’t right either. There are only so many skill combinations.

By now I’m wondering the same as Bas ^^
You clearly put in a gigantic amount of time to type all those essays and I admire your tanacity for swimming against this current of necro lovers. But I can assure you that you are not the only one here who also plays warrior, thief, engineer etc. yet you make it sound like everyone here lives in this isolated necro-bubble, not knowing how much better all the other classes are! Wich is simply not true, we figured out a playstyle and build to beat all the other classes and that’s why we stick with this class. So at some point we just have to come to the conclusion that it’s not the classes fault but you just play other classes better.
However, if your secret agenda is to stir up some devs attention to “fix” us, but really make as the most op class of every mmo in the entire history in the universe ever (!!!) then pls keep going

Kravick.4906:

People still think necromancer does the lowest damage in a dungeon, people still think necromancer can never do more then 7k with a single skill… people still go into spite for a full condition build, or into curses for a full berserker build with dagger MH and absolutely no way of applying any bleeds…

People say this because its true. Someone once compared a fight vs a warrior over a ten second period of time. I forgot who it was. Essentially the warrior killed its target in 10 seconds and it took the necromancer 12 seconds to do it. During a short fight, less than 10 seconds, you’re not going to notice a difference. That period of time is to small to make an educated time to kill. This is why. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forceful_Greatsword That single trait alone is why warriors will beat the pants off necromancers in everything they do. That trait plus 3 targets, they can easily stack up to 25 stacks of might on their own. Necros do about half that in might stacking, and the necromancers damage output is limited to a single target only. Our only ability to do respectable AoE damage is through conditions, which cannot achieve that kind of damage using bleeding alone. Meanwhile, a warrior stacks up 3+ mobs, hits hundred blades, whirlwind, and walks away with a pile of loot and a bunch of dead corpses.

It was me that compared the warrior with the necromancer over 10 seconds. The point was that the necromancer took 12 seconds to do it, but he also adds up to 25 stacks of vulnerability. So even though the necromancer’s damage is 20-25% lower then the warrior’s, he gives the warrior + the entire team 25% more damage overall.

My point was that necromancer power damage = 75%‘s of warrior damage + 25% increased warrior damage (because you increase the warrior’s damage) + more damage for the party… It’s… balanced in a way…

You also compared a single target build vs a warrior’s cleave, over a period of time which can not be accurate, yes… as bursting out 3 single normal mobs, the warrior would win. How about we calculate DPS vs 5 veteran mobs over… how ever much time it takes for them to die… 30 seconds.

I’ll do the math for the necromancer since i know it by heart… full condition build has 1800 condition damage (even more with the new ascended gear) and 133% bleeding duration + blood is power = 2150 condition damage and 25 stacks of bleeding on the target… which equals a DPS of exactly 3750 just from bleeding + the small scepter auto -attacks. Let’s call it 4k dps… omg so small… a warrior does so much more omg. Ok… let’s take our 4k DPS x 5 epidemic every 12 seconds, in a radious of 600 at a range of 1200.

Spikes of 20k DPS (minimum + DS 4 + bleeding AOEs normal damage + external buffs… you can get up to 25k DPS) every 12 seconds, while being extremely tanky, while having the ability to heal and support the party, while being at range.

So back to my original benchmark… 5 veteran mobs spread around a room… warrior vs necromancer.

I also don’t know how you can constantly say that almost every other class can 1v2-3 and necromancer can’t… If that is true i should have met so many people that went vs me and my mate Shiva and killed us both. In TPvP i’m the team leader and i usually make sure in real time that the team’s movement patterns allow for me to team up with our thief Shiva… after the initial large team fight. It’s funny… because 90% of the time when me and shiva find 2-3 other players, i call out a target… and i say… wait for it… wait for it… NOW… 9 stacks of bleeding + fear + fear + fear if stability + golem charge while shiva burst gives us an instant kill, then the fight turns into a 2v1 or 2v2. Not to mention that if me and shiva are 2v3-ing in one place on the map… there’s going to be a 3v2 somewhere else… which the other members of the team will win. At best people that me and shiva focus right can get away from us, if they are bunker elementalists or… no… just that.

Where or who are those people that can solo vs me and not one other… but two other…
Keep in mind that we lack the proper experience, we are around rank 25s in PvP, and rank 50s went down to our combo just as a rank 1 absolutely no difference… Maybe a rank 1000 can solo us, but then again… there is no rank 1000 because there’s only so much you can do with 10+ skills.

flow.6043:

So at some point we just have to come to the conclusion that it’s not the classes fault but you just play other classes better.

I disagree with this statement entirely. Screenshots from the last couple of tPvP matches I’ve played. I’m not so egotistical to call myself good or “the best”, but I do achieve wins with this class. Its just so much easier, and faster, with other classes. This is mainly due to the class mechanics, where my abilities go off instantly on other classes. Even you have to admit that the cast times and cool downs on necromancers simply are not in line with the rest of the classes currently. Even engineers don’t have cast times and cool downs this absurdly long.

Yes, thats me on the top in both screenshots. This is how most of my tPvP matches end up looking, win or lose.

Kravick.4906:

flow.6043:

So at some point we just have to come to the conclusion that it’s not the classes fault but you just play other classes better.

I disagree with this statement entirely. Screenshots from the last couple of tPvP matches I’ve played. I’m not so egotistical to call myself good or “the best”, but I do achieve wins with this class. Its just so much easier, and faster, with other classes. This is mainly due to the class mechanics, where my abilities go off instantly on other classes. Even you have to admit that the cast times and cool downs on necromancers simply are not in line with the rest of the classes currently. Even engineers don’t have cast times and cool downs this absurdly long.

Yes, thats me on the top in both screenshots. This is how most of my tPvP matches end up looking, win or lose.

I know you disagree ^^
And this -> “Its just so much easier, and faster, with other classes.” kinda plays right into what you quoted from my original post.

As to cast times and cooldowns… what skills are you referring to? and don’t say signet, there simply is no viable necro-signet-build (not just because of the long cds). yes, some other utilities do have such a high cooldown that it’s not worth equipping them, but that’s the same for every class.

And Nemesis said it a few times allready and I can say the very same from my own experiece: If I’m in a 2 or 3 man team and someone tries to “solo” my group… there is no chance in hell (!!!) that this guy doesn’t die before he even downs a single one of my guys. And yes, an elementalist can get away sometimes… whatever (thiefs don’t :P)

As to cast times and cooldowns… what skills are you referring to?

Are you serious? How about every skill with a 1 second or greater cast time? Its very rare to find a skill with a cast time that long on another class. Necros are riddled with them.

Kravick.4906:

snip
And as soon as you strip them, those boons go right back on. The classes that rely on boons are classes that have a far easier time reapplying their boons than we have stripping them. Especially against guardians who just turn the conditions right back into boons once they’ve been corrupted with: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Contemplation_of_Purity Its also a frickin stun breaker! Our role as a bunker buster gets completely negated by a single skill. GG. Elementalists gain those boons right back every time they switch attunements, which is every 3 seconds it seems.
snip

Point of fact: Contemplation of Purity has 60 sec CD. Corrupt Boon has a 40 second CD. Furthermore Signet of Spite can cover him in conditions again, instantly.

Point of fact: Corrupt Boon is not our only boon —> conditions skill.

Point of fact: Once Contemplation of Purity (assuming the guard even uses it…) is used, there is a very high chance you have several condition skills ready to go immediately since very nearly every necro weapon skill applies one form of condition or another.

Sure an engineer with 409 can cure conditions one at a time via elixir toss/drink, but while they’re doing that you can still be applying conditions while he is busy doinkittenage and attempting to cleanse them. And every single one of those elixirs is going to give him a boon of some sort for you to finally corrupt in the end. Not only that but engineer conditions are applied at a relatively short range compared to the necros.

I have two engineers at level 80 and I am VERY much aware of their limitations. And even if they’re covered in boons doesn’t mean you can’t be destroying them with conditions or other damage…

Have to say I love the passion going on in here right now. It’s a good discussion, just don’t let it slip into trolling the person above you because they don’t agree with your viewpoint.

Just a heads up about it all however.

If your going to put an argument forward. For or against, back it up with evidence. Saying “I’ve seen 4k critz” doesn’t prove anything.

In addition, try and stay away from napkin math to prove a point. Playing the game isn’t a formula, don’t try and prove your point about output with numbers. One well timed fear or stun will break your theory apart and doesn’t really prove anything.

Now from my PoV, necromancers are amazing in PvE, lacklustre in Solo WvW, Excellent at Group WvW, Avergae in tPvP (Needs group synergy and high skill cap).

If you plan on joining your zergs in WvW and enjoying PvE content, Necormancers are a good, solid choice. If you like to roam and do random SPvP and don’t want to rely on others to stay alive, Other classes are better.

One other thing i have found is that the people in this forum are the most active and helpful of any. There’s a lot of high quality material in this sub section that others just don’t have.

Criselli.7462:

Sure an engineer with 409 can cure conditions one at a time via elixir toss/drink, but while they’re doing that you can still be applying conditions while he is busy doinkittenage and attempting to cleanse them. And every single one of those elixirs is going to give him a boon of some sort for you to finally corrupt in the end. Not only that but engineer conditions are applied at a relatively short range compared to the necros.

I have two engineers at level 80 and I am VERY much aware of their limitations. And even if they’re covered in boons doesn’t mean you can’t be destroying them with conditions or other damage…

You only need to clear the bleeding stacks to stop a condition necro from doing anything to you. Necromancers stack bleeding very slowly. Because of the way the condition removal system works, last condition applied is the first condition removed, bleeding is always the first condition to be removed. Range is also not an issue against a necromancer. Whats he going to do? Run away from you? They have no mobility skills to get away, so feel free to stand right on top of them while you out damage them with your burning and confusion, which necros can’t do, on top of your own bleeding and poison. Getting to much for you to handle? Pop Elixir S and heal yourself without fear of being interrupted, or drop a supply crate which applies more burning from flame turret and gives you health packs. Use Gear Shield to take some pressure off. Knock down the necro with Magnet.

I may not have the experience you do playing one, but I’ve seen plenty of engineers and what they do to me. It frickin hurts. At no point do I ever feel threatened when a necromancer shows up. An engineer on the other hand, I’ve learned to approach them with caution, because they can seriously hurt you very quickly, or turn out to be one of the tankiest kittens this game has ever seen. I have watched 1 engineer bunker a point against 4 people, and do so for a good solid minute before backup finally arrived.

Also, Signet of Spite? Just… no. I shouldn’t need to explain why that was a very bad skill to bring up. 5 seconds of conditions on a 90 second cool down? Yeesh, such a bad skill.

Kravick.4906:

Whats he going to do? Run away from you? They have no mobility skills to get away, so feel free to stand right on top of them while you out damage them with your burning and confusion, which necros can’t do, on top of your own bleeding and poison.

Again you are making the necro sound like this little helpless infant, bareley able to stop sucking on his pacifier before he can even react. Out of context one might think you are talking about a regular mindless risen mob.

Also, Signet of Spite? Just… no. I shouldn’t need to explain why that was a very bad skill to bring up. 5 seconds of conditions on a 90 second cool down? Yeesh, such a bad skill.

To be fair, a decent condition mancer would have somewhere between +50-100% condition duration. So let’s say 5 sec blind and 8 sec of everything else. If you land that you either force a cleanse or disable your opponent long enough to deal some more serious damage without him beeing able to do anything about it. And if you think about it, for its one time use in a dueling scenario there aren’t many utilities for a necro that are more aggressive than that. But yeah, cd is too long so noone uses it.

flow.6043:

Kravick.4906:

Whats he going to do? Run away from you? They have no mobility skills to get away, so feel free to stand right on top of them while you out damage them with your burning and confusion, which necros can’t do, on top of your own bleeding and poison.

Again you are making the necro sound like this little helpless infant, bareley able to stop sucking on his pacifier before he can even react. Out of context one might think you are talking about a regular mindless risen mob.

Also, Signet of Spite? Just… no. I shouldn’t need to explain why that was a very bad skill to bring up. 5 seconds of conditions on a 90 second cool down? Yeesh, such a bad skill.

To be fair, a decent condition mancer would have somewhere between +50-100% condition duration. So let’s say 5 sec blind and 8 sec of everything else. If you land that you either force a cleanse or disable your opponent long enough to deal some more serious damage without him beeing able to do anything about it. And if you think about it, for its one time use in a dueling scenario there aren’t many utilities for a necro that are more aggressive than that. But yeah, cd is too long so noone uses it.

Never said they were a helpless infant, but keeping distance, or staying on a necromancer, is never an issue, so bringing up range as a counter argument doesn’t work.

You would have a point about Signet of Spite, if our condition duration wasn’t stapled to the spite tree, which only power necromancers take. Lets be honest here, your typical conditionmancer is going to have only 40% condition duration through super vegi pizza, and sadly not every necromancer uses it. While the Giver weapons were finally fixed, I still don’t see many necromancers using them as the other stats are less than optimal for a condition spec.

Necromancers typically stack bleeding duration, not condition duration, as its easier to get and you can stack it in larger quantities. Even so, Signet of Spite’s passive lacks synergy with condition spec, so even if Signet of Spite was worth using, a conditionmancer probably wouldn’t use it. Power users OTOH, I could see that since they’re forced to take condition duration if they want any kind of synergy with their builds. Of course thats if the signets cool down is ever brought into reason.

Nemesis.8593:

It was me that compared the warrior with the necromancer over 10 seconds. The point was that the necromancer took 12 seconds to do it, but he also adds up to 25 stacks of vulnerability. So even though the necromancer’s damage is 20-25% lower then the warrior’s, he gives the warrior + the entire team 25% more damage overall.

My point was that necromancer power damage = 75%‘s of warrior damage + 25% increased warrior damage (because you increase the warrior’s damage) + more damage for the party… It’s… balanced in a way…

You also compared a single target build vs a warrior’s cleave, over a period of time which can not be accurate, yes… as bursting out 3 single normal mobs, the warrior would win. How about we calculate DPS vs 5 veteran mobs over… how ever much time it takes for them to die… 30 seconds.

I’ll do the math for the necromancer since i know it by heart… full condition build has 1800 condition damage (even more with the new ascended gear) and 133% bleeding duration + blood is power = 2150 condition damage and 25 stacks of bleeding on the target… which equals a DPS of exactly 3750 just from bleeding + the small scepter auto -attacks. Let’s call it 4k dps… omg so small… a warrior does so much more omg. Ok… let’s take our 4k DPS x 5 epidemic every 12 seconds, in a radious of 600 at a range of 1200.

Spikes of 20k DPS (minimum + DS 4 + bleeding AOEs normal damage + external buffs… you can get up to 25k DPS) every 12 seconds, while being extremely tanky, while having the ability to heal and support the party, while being at range.

So back to my original benchmark… 5 veteran mobs spread around a room… warrior vs necromancer.

Wheres the warriors math? I see nothing that which you are comparing it too. You’ve got the necros math all planned out, but you show me nothing to compare it too. So really, how are we to know where the necromancer really stands over all if there is no other benchmark here? This is a one sided argument designed to make necromancers look better. A 10 second time frame with no numbers to show prolonged fighting is also not good to base your analysis on. If you’re not showing any actual numbers other than how long it takes a warrior to kill something without giving him time to stack his might, and then comparing that data to boss fights that last longer than 10 seconds, then your initial data set is going to be horrendously skewed in favor of the necromancer. You need hard numbers from both sides before I can take your analysis seriously.

You’re also forgetting the constant 25 stacks of might the warrior is going to have, which doesn’t get stacked up in 10 seconds, as well as the several stacks of vulnerability the NPC is going to have (warriors stack vuln like crazy too ya know and you completely threw that out the window). You also can’t throw out the warriors ability to cleave so easily like that. There are just way to many encounters in this game where cleave is a factor for you to just throw it out like that.

Now I hope you’re not taking any of this personally. I’m not doing this because I have anything against you. Truth is, I actually want to be wrong here, but I’m not seeing it. Right now, I’m on the side that says necromancers aren’t that great. I want to be on your said that says they’re fantastic. Without the math, I can’t do that. The fact is, unless you have hard numbers to compare on both sides of this equation, you’re only guessing.

Kravick.4906:

flow.6043:

Kravick.4906:

Whats he going to do? Run away from you? They have no mobility skills to get away, so feel free to stand right on top of them while you out damage them with your burning and confusion, which necros can’t do, on top of your own bleeding and poison.

Again you are making the necro sound like this little helpless infant, bareley able to stop sucking on his pacifier before he can even react. Out of context one might think you are talking about a regular mindless risen mob.

Also, Signet of Spite? Just… no. I shouldn’t need to explain why that was a very bad skill to bring up. 5 seconds of conditions on a 90 second cool down? Yeesh, such a bad skill.

To be fair, a decent condition mancer would have somewhere between +50-100% condition duration. So let’s say 5 sec blind and 8 sec of everything else. If you land that you either force a cleanse or disable your opponent long enough to deal some more serious damage without him beeing able to do anything about it. And if you think about it, for its one time use in a dueling scenario there aren’t many utilities for a necro that are more aggressive than that. But yeah, cd is too long so noone uses it.

Never said they were a helpless infant, but keeping distance, or staying on a necromancer, is never an issue, so bringing up range as a counter argument doesn’t work.

You would have a point about Signet of Spite, if our condition duration wasn’t stapled to the spite tree, which only power necromancers take. Lets be honest here, your typical conditionmancer is going to have only 40% condition duration through super vegi pizza, and sadly not every necromancer uses it. While the Giver weapons were finally fixed, I still don’t see many necromancers using them as the other stats are less than optimal for a condition spec.

Necromancers typically stack bleeding duration, not condition duration, as its easier to get and you can stack it in larger quantities. Even so, Signet of Spite’s passive lacks synergy with condition spec, so even if Signet of Spite was worth using, a conditionmancer probably wouldn’t use it. Power users OTOH, I could see that since they’re forced to take condition duration if they want any kind of synergy with their builds. Of course thats if the signets cool down is ever brought into reason.

Didn’t you say you watched nemesis videos?
Power + condition duration in one traitline makes sense and doesn’t exclude conditionmancers from using it, in nemesis hybrid build he even invests 30 into spite. He even explains exactly that… why doesn’t go power with precision and cond dmg with duration.
Also there are runes, which are definitely more populare than givers weapons.
And typically necromancers prefer condition duration over bleeding duration, not the other way around. As you said, bleeding duration is easier to come by, so once you have around 70%+ cond duration you can fill the gap to 100 easily (if that is even somthing to strive for at that point…).

Nemesis.8593:

I also don’t know how you can constantly say that almost every other class can 1v2-3 and necromancer can’t… If that is true i should have met so many people that went vs me and my mate Shiva and killed us both. In TPvP i’m the team leader and i usually make sure in real time that the team’s movement patterns allow for me to team up with our thief Shiva… after the initial large team fight. It’s funny… because 90% of the time when me and shiva find 2-3 other players, i call out a target… and i say… wait for it… wait for it… NOW… 9 stacks of bleeding + fear + fear + fear if stability + golem charge while shiva burst gives us an instant kill, then the fight turns into a 2v1 or 2v2. Not to mention that if me and shiva are 2v3-ing in one place on the map… there’s going to be a 3v2 somewhere else… which the other members of the team will win. At best people that me and shiva focus right can get away from us, if they are bunker elementalists or… no… just that.

Where or who are those people that can solo vs me and not one other… but two other…
Keep in mind that we lack the proper experience, we are around rank 25s in PvP, and rank 50s went down to our combo just as a rank 1 absolutely no difference… Maybe a rank 1000 can solo us, but then again… there is no rank 1000 because there’s only so much you can do with 10+ skills.

Now I’m confused. First, I was talking about 1v2s and 1v3s, which you mention, and then you immediately bring up the fact you fight with a partner all the time, and that you’re constantly never fighting alone because you make sure to coordinate your movements. Necros are great with a partner. I never disputed that. But then again, so is every other class. You’ve diverged off topic here I think.

Kravick.4906:

Nemesis.8593:

It was me that compared the warrior with the necromancer over 10 seconds. The point was that the necromancer took 12 seconds to do it, but he also adds up to 25 stacks of vulnerability. So even though the necromancer’s damage is 20-25% lower then the warrior’s, he gives the warrior + the entire team 25% more damage overall.

My point was that necromancer power damage = 75%‘s of warrior damage + 25% increased warrior damage (because you increase the warrior’s damage) + more damage for the party… It’s… balanced in a way…

You also compared a single target build vs a warrior’s cleave, over a period of time which can not be accurate, yes… as bursting out 3 single normal mobs, the warrior would win. How about we calculate DPS vs 5 veteran mobs over… how ever much time it takes for them to die… 30 seconds.

I’ll do the math for the necromancer since i know it by heart… full condition build has 1800 condition damage (even more with the new ascended gear) and 133% bleeding duration + blood is power = 2150 condition damage and 25 stacks of bleeding on the target… which equals a DPS of exactly 3750 just from bleeding + the small scepter auto -attacks. Let’s call it 4k dps… omg so small… a warrior does so much more omg. Ok… let’s take our 4k DPS x 5 epidemic every 12 seconds, in a radious of 600 at a range of 1200.

Spikes of 20k DPS (minimum + DS 4 + bleeding AOEs normal damage + external buffs… you can get up to 25k DPS) every 12 seconds, while being extremely tanky, while having the ability to heal and support the party, while being at range.

So back to my original benchmark… 5 veteran mobs spread around a room… warrior vs necromancer.

Wheres the warriors math? I see nothing that which you are comparing it too. You’ve got the necros math all planned out, but you show me nothing to compare it too. So really, how are we to know where the necromancer really stands over all if there is no other benchmark here? This is a one sided argument designed to make necromancers look better. You’re also forgetting the constant 25 stacks of might the warrior is going to have, which doesn’t get stacked up in 10 seconds, as well as the several stacks of vulnerability the NPC is going to have (warriors stack vuln like crazy too ya know and you completely threw that out the window). You also can’t throw out the warriors ability to cleave so easily like that. There are just way to many encounters in this game where cleave is a factor for you to just throw it out like that.

He didn’t throw it out. His major point was that a low range sword cleave can’t beat the wide range 5-target-aoe of a necro if you count all the damage output together + the group support that comes along with it.

flow.6043:

Didn’t you say you watched nemesis videos?
Power + condition duration in one traitline makes sense and doesn’t exclude conditionmancers from using it, in nemesis hybrid build he even invests 30 into spite. He even explains exactly that… why doesn’t go power with precision and cond dmg with duration.
Also there are runes, which are definitely more populare than givers weapons.
And typically necromancers prefer condition duration over bleeding duration, not the other way around. As you said, bleeding duration is easier to come by, so once you have around 70%+ cond duration you can fill the gap to 100 easily (if that is even somthing to strive for at that point…).

Those videos are PVE builds. PVE is not the topic of discussion here. I’m talking about PVP here. Always have been. However, once I actually tried that hybrid build out in PVP. It didn’t fair to well. Absolutely no survivability. If anyone even sneezed at you, you died. Glass builds only work in PVP if your class has the mobility to dodge attacks.

As far as Nemesis explanation, I never agreed with it. I have always felt it its a haphazard mess that prevents necromancers from specializing properly like other classes are able too.

Actually, if you would, tell me how you’re achieving 70% condition duration without the use of food or givers weapons. All the condition builds I’ve seen people post use Krait, Centaur, Afflicted, and Undead runes, and none of them have condition duration on them. Just bleeding duration.

flow.6043:

He didn’t throw it out. His major point was that a low range sword cleave can’t beat the wide range 5-target-aoe of a necro if you count all the damage output together + the group support that comes along with it.

Thats way to niche to even consider taking seriously then. Those situations are too few and far inbetween. The vast majority of PVE fights in this game involve clumping everything in your face and AoEing it down. I can think of only a handful of fights where this doesn’t happen, and even in those instances, all the trash mobs leading up to it still behave normally and clump up.

At what point can a warrior not drag mobs together and clump them up, even in instances?

Kravick.4906:

Actually, if you would, tell me how you’re achieving 70% condition duration without the use of food or givers weapons. All the condition builds I’ve seen people post use Krait, Centaur, Afflicted, and Undead runes, and none of them have condition duration on them. Just bleeding duration.

I don’t reach it without food, wouldn’t make sense to eat a veggie pizza if you allready have 70%.
Mad King, Lyssa, Lich and Nightmare increase condition duration. I know many people carrie 2 mad king and 2 lyssa for its +20% duration, not only necromancers.

Kravick.4906:

Thats way to niche to even consider taking seriously then. Those situations are too few and far inbetween. The vast majority of PVE fights in this game involve clumping everything in your face and AoEing it down. I can think of only a handful of fights where this doesn’t happen, and even in those instances, all the trash mobs leading up to it still behave normally and clump up.

At what point can a warrior not drag mobs together and clump them up, even in instances?

Niche as in: every dungeon and fractal and wvw zerg fights and, and, and….?
Keep in mind, clumping mobs up to a warrior also benefits the necromancer if he uses marks, wells etc. and even then a warriors cleave can only hit 3 at a time… while the necromancer can provide the warrior with regeneration, condition removal, combofields (=area blindness, weakness,… and all the finishers the warrior can apply himself)

flow.6043:

Kravick.4906:

Nemesis.8593:

It was me that compared the warrior with the necromancer over 10 seconds. The point was that the necromancer took 12 seconds to do it, but he also adds up to 25 stacks of vulnerability. So even though the necromancer’s damage is 20-25% lower then the warrior’s, he gives the warrior + the entire team 25% more damage overall.

My point was that necromancer power damage = 75%‘s of warrior damage + 25% increased warrior damage (because you increase the warrior’s damage) + more damage for the party… It’s… balanced in a way…

You also compared a single target build vs a warrior’s cleave, over a period of time which can not be accurate, yes… as bursting out 3 single normal mobs, the warrior would win. How about we calculate DPS vs 5 veteran mobs over… how ever much time it takes for them to die… 30 seconds.

I’ll do the math for the necromancer since i know it by heart… full condition build has 1800 condition damage (even more with the new ascended gear) and 133% bleeding duration + blood is power = 2150 condition damage and 25 stacks of bleeding on the target… which equals a DPS of exactly 3750 just from bleeding + the small scepter auto -attacks. Let’s call it 4k dps… omg so small… a warrior does so much more omg. Ok… let’s take our 4k DPS x 5 epidemic every 12 seconds, in a radious of 600 at a range of 1200.

Spikes of 20k DPS (minimum + DS 4 + bleeding AOEs normal damage + external buffs… you can get up to 25k DPS) every 12 seconds, while being extremely tanky, while having the ability to heal and support the party, while being at range.

So back to my original benchmark… 5 veteran mobs spread around a room… warrior vs necromancer.

Wheres the warriors math? I see nothing that which you are comparing it too. You’ve got the necros math all planned out, but you show me nothing to compare it too. So really, how are we to know where the necromancer really stands over all if there is no other benchmark here? This is a one sided argument designed to make necromancers look better. You’re also forgetting the constant 25 stacks of might the warrior is going to have, which doesn’t get stacked up in 10 seconds, as well as the several stacks of vulnerability the NPC is going to have (warriors stack vuln like crazy too ya know and you completely threw that out the window). You also can’t throw out the warriors ability to cleave so easily like that. There are just way to many encounters in this game where cleave is a factor for you to just throw it out like that.

He didn’t throw it out. His major point was that a low range sword cleave can’t beat the wide range 5-target-aoe of a necro if you count all the damage output together + the group support that comes along with it.

Exactly…

flow.6043:

I don’t reach it without food, wouldn’t make sense to eat a veggie pizza if you allready have 70%.
Mad King, Lyssa, Lich and Nightmare increase condition duration. I know many people carrie 2 mad king and 2 lyssa for its +20% duration, not only necromancers.

Of the runes listed, only Nightmare gives condition damage. The condition duration on nightmare is also bugged and doesn’t work, unless that got fixed in the March patch. I see where you’re going with this, but traditional condition builds revolve around runes that also give condition damage.

Niche as in: every dungeon and fractal and wvw zerg fights and, and, and….?
Keep in mind, clumping mobs up to a warrior also benefits the necromancer if he uses marks, wells etc. and even then a warriors cleave can only hit 3 at a time… while the necromancer can provide the warrior with regeneration, condition removal, combofields (=area blindness, weakness,… and all the finishers the warrior can apply himself)

No, not every dungeon. Majority of dungeons involve lots of clumped up NPCs. As far as fighting bosses that are just the boss and no other NPCs, warriors still blow necromancers out of the water in terms of damage, which is the entire point of this discussion. Comparing the DPS of necromancers to warriors without factoring in cleave is also meaningless. Even in that case, a thief is going to spank both of them, and not by much vs a warrior.

Nemesis.8593:

flow.6043:

Kravick.4906:

Nemesis.8593:

It was me that compared the warrior with the necromancer over 10 seconds. The point was that the necromancer took 12 seconds to do it, but he also adds up to 25 stacks of vulnerability. So even though the necromancer’s damage is 20-25% lower then the warrior’s, he gives the warrior + the entire team 25% more damage overall.

My point was that necromancer power damage = 75%‘s of warrior damage + 25% increased warrior damage (because you increase the warrior’s damage) + more damage for the party… It’s… balanced in a way…

You also compared a single target build vs a warrior’s cleave, over a period of time which can not be accurate, yes… as bursting out 3 single normal mobs, the warrior would win. How about we calculate DPS vs 5 veteran mobs over… how ever much time it takes for them to die… 30 seconds.

I’ll do the math for the necromancer since i know it by heart… full condition build has 1800 condition damage (even more with the new ascended gear) and 133% bleeding duration + blood is power = 2150 condition damage and 25 stacks of bleeding on the target… which equals a DPS of exactly 3750 just from bleeding + the small scepter auto -attacks. Let’s call it 4k dps… omg so small… a warrior does so much more omg. Ok… let’s take our 4k DPS x 5 epidemic every 12 seconds, in a radious of 600 at a range of 1200.

Spikes of 20k DPS (minimum + DS 4 + bleeding AOEs normal damage + external buffs… you can get up to 25k DPS) every 12 seconds, while being extremely tanky, while having the ability to heal and support the party, while being at range.

So back to my original benchmark… 5 veteran mobs spread around a room… warrior vs necromancer.

Wheres the warriors math? I see nothing that which you are comparing it too. You’ve got the necros math all planned out, but you show me nothing to compare it too. So really, how are we to know where the necromancer really stands over all if there is no other benchmark here? This is a one sided argument designed to make necromancers look better. You’re also forgetting the constant 25 stacks of might the warrior is going to have, which doesn’t get stacked up in 10 seconds, as well as the several stacks of vulnerability the NPC is going to have (warriors stack vuln like crazy too ya know and you completely threw that out the window). You also can’t throw out the warriors ability to cleave so easily like that. There are just way to many encounters in this game where cleave is a factor for you to just throw it out like that.

He didn’t throw it out. His major point was that a low range sword cleave can’t beat the wide range 5-target-aoe of a necro if you count all the damage output together + the group support that comes along with it.

Exactly…

This tells me nothing… I don’t even get how this is even relevant in most dungeons.

Kravick.4906:

flow.6043:

He didn’t throw it out. His major point was that a low range sword cleave can’t beat the wide range 5-target-aoe of a necro if you count all the damage output together + the group support that comes along with it.

Thats way to niche to even consider taking seriously then. Those situations are too few and far inbetween. The vast majority of PVE fights in this game involve clumping everything in your face and AoEing it down. I can think of only a handful of fights where this doesn’t happen, and even in those instances, all the trash mobs leading up to it still behave normally and clump up.

At what point can a warrior not drag mobs together and clump them up, even in instances?

So let me see if i understand correctly…

A glass cannon warrior drags all monsters (without a taunt system) in one place while building up stacks of might… then proceeds to do 35k damage 100B with cleave on 3 targets.

Let’s assume for a second he doesn’t die by doing that, and he can maintain agro… while not dying as a glass cannon.

Let’s see the math then… 35k damage over 3 seconds (while being immobile) and an 8 second CD. That’s 11k+ DPS x 3 targets = 33k DPS every 8 seconds. So far the warrior does more damage then the necromancer… the thing is… a warrior can spike higher then a necromancer, but in the 8 seconds of CD after… his DPS goes down dramatically.
I’ve spoken with my warriors that run such a build, skilled ones too… and they say that their DPS goes down even to like 4-5k. But let’s assume the warrior still has the agro needed to cleave while not dying… let’s say his damage is double…
His DPS will go down to 10k and not more in the 8 seconds until the CD expires… Not to mention that no warrior in the world can perform such a perfect hit every CD, every 8 seconds… however a necromancer can epidemic every 12 seconds without any worries.

As a necromancer you build up your max stacks and then you go up and down with epidemic every 12 seconds but it’s more linear, you never just drop. All of that while being far more tanky, don’t require agro or clumping up, have the ability to support your party with heals and AoE blinds… all of these at a 1200 range and a radius of 600.

PS: Necromancer’s epidemic also spreads the burning and confusion on the target, and takes advantage of the necromancer’s condition damage. Therefor if you have burning and 10 confusion stacks on the target, the necromancer’s damage grows even higher… this is the equivalent of having vulnerability on a target for power builds. Condition based necromancers take advantage of a group in a different way…

2150 condition damage burning = 866 DPS x 5 = 4330 DPS
2150 condition damage 10 stacks of confusion = 2260 DPS x 5 = 11300 DPS

Add that to our original 25000 DPS that a necromancer can spike every 12 seconds and you end up with an average of 40000 DPS.

How about that ?

Show me the math where a warrior deals 35k damage with 100b. Such numbers are not realistic and only exist in situations built about that warrior with 25 might and 25 vulnerablity on the target.

Warrior burst damage is indeed strongest in the game but still highly overrated.

I love this discution,

and I disagree with you guys attacking Kravick because he doesn’t have the same opinion as necromancer as you. That’s what make a good debat

I kinda agree with some things kravick said, even if I don’t have Nemesis or others experience.

Those crazy number kidb is writing, I never saw that with my necro.

Even be going full berserker + crit food + Ruby (tho I still had a condition back pack, and maybe one other accesssory not berserker), I would not get those number.

I saw Nemesis could get 5k crit on PvE, but in WvW I never got that with DS auto attack. And 10k life transfer is just out of this world for me. Maybe if you have 25 stack of might and the enemy is under 50% hp and has 25% stack of vuln.

Like Kravick said, the issue with building a berserker necromancer, is your only escape will be worm and plague form. Otherwise, if you fight a premade group in WvW, you’ll die right away. You have no mitigation, no escape, you just soak up some damage and get 3 shotted by thief. You have no vigor, which is a great pain for me.

A thing I disagree with you Kravick, is that a necromancer can be a really good oponent again a condition engineer. Especially if it’s a condimancer. We had a video of some duel between two really high level tpvpers in the Engi forum. I think it was Teldo or Five Gauge again someone else.

With all the condition transfer and consume condition, an expert necromancer can be a nightmare to condi engineer. The necromancer actually won the duels.

I also disagree about necromancer not being hard to play. You are right, they don’t have much abilities, you don’t have 25 different skill like a multikit Engineer. But over time, it won’t be an issue. Once you have played enought engineer, you just know all of time by heart and playing with 25 skills actually become easier then playing with a 15 skill class like necromancer.

With Engineer I have a lot more space for mistake then necro. With my necro, every action is important. Positionning in team fight is vital, as you never want to be focused or out of position. You have to not burst all your cooldown at the same time. You don’T have much option, so you have to use the at the best moment. You don’t have mobility, so you won’t have any escape if it doesn’t turn in your favor.

Good discution! Let’s keep it going!

Kravick.4906:

flow.6043:

I don’t reach it without food, wouldn’t make sense to eat a veggie pizza if you allready have 70%.
Mad King, Lyssa, Lich and Nightmare increase condition duration. I know many people carrie 2 mad king and 2 lyssa for its +20% duration, not only necromancers.

Of the runes listed, only Nightmare gives condition damage. The condition duration on nightmare is also bugged and doesn’t work, unless that got fixed in the March patch. I see where you’re going with this, but traditional condition builds revolve around runes that also give condition damage.

The bug of the nightmare runes was that the pvp version gave 20 instead of 10 total duration increase.
And players with “traditional” condition builds coudn’t care less if the first stat of each of the 2 runes gives you +25 condition damage, power or precision… not only because it’s too little to matter, but also because all of those stats benefit a condition build.

Kardiamond.6952:

I love this discution,

and I disagree with you guys attacking Kravick because he doesn’t have the same opinion as necromancer as you. That’s what make a good debat

I kinda agree with some things kravick said, even if I don’t have Nemesis or others experience.

Those crazy number kidb is writing, I never saw that with my necro.

Even be going full berserker + crit food + Ruby (tho I still had a condition back pack, and maybe one other accesssory not berserker), I would not get those number.

I saw Nemesis could get 5k crit on PvE, but in WvW I never got that with DS auto attack. And 10k life transfer is just out of this world for me. Maybe if you have 25 stack of might and the enemy is under 50% hp and has 25% stack of vuln.

Like Kravick said, the issue with building a berserker necromancer, is your only escape will be worm and plague form. Otherwise, if you fight a premade group in WvW, you’ll die right away. You have no mitigation, no escape, you just soak up some damage and get 3 shotted by thief. You have no vigor, which is a great pain for me.

A thing I disagree with you Kravick, is that a necromancer can be a really good oponent again a condition engineer. Especially if it’s a condimancer. We had a video of some duel between two really high level tpvpers in the Engi forum. I think it was Teldo or Five Gauge again someone else.

With all the condition transfer and consume condition, an expert necromancer can be a nightmare to condi engineer. The necromancer actually won the duels.

I also disagree about necromancer not being hard to play. You are right, they don’t have much abilities, you don’t have 25 different skill like a multikit Engineer. But over time, it won’t be an issue. Once you have played enought engineer, you just know all of time by heart and playing with 25 skills actually become easier then playing with a 15 skill class like necromancer.

With Engineer I have a lot more space for mistake then necro. With my necro, every action is important. Positionning in team fight is vital, as you never want to be focused or out of position. You have to not burst all your cooldown at the same time. You don’T have much option, so you have to use the at the best moment. You don’t have mobility, so you won’t have any escape if it doesn’t turn in your favor.

Good discution! Let’s keep it going!

I have a video in witch i show how i do more and more damage with ghastly claws, up to 17000 damage on a single channeling. I wasn’t even prepared…

One of these days i’m going to be fully prepared, and get a premade that will buff me and set the scenario for me… and i will unleash a hit so high… that… i will get banned after.

None of the numbers here are fake or exaggerated… i was using a condition damage calculator for the exact numbers, besides i use them in general. I have also seen warriors going up to 40k on their 100B, but that was… too much of a premade to be something that would fit in a benchmark as average.

@Nemesis

I don’t disagree with you man.

With the perfect set up, you can do crazy thing.

But in a group fight, it’s a lot different.

Just like the might stacking build on necromancer that were tried. You can’t do that in WvW roaming.

If the enemy didn’t pressure the necromancer that was standing behind, they failed. A necromancer free to damage is a dangerous opponent. Because they can set up their DPS.

But when I’M fighting vs premade roamng group and they ASSIGN a hammer warrior and a ranger on me each fight, I can’t go glass cannon. I just can’t release pressure.

On a perfect setup I agree that Necromancer can do serious damage, but I feel like it’s a lot harder to do in WvW, a lot harder then the other class I played.

Kravick.4906:

kidbs.8920:

Kravick you still keep focusing on condition builds for some reason. Necros have some of the highest AoE damage in the game and I’m not talking about using epidemic. Our wells can do some pretty extreme damage when stacked on a group (4k+ per tick with well of corruption and suffering combined). Staff autoattacks pierce and can easily crit for over 2k on anything in it’s path. Death shroud 4 can channel up to 10k to multiple targets.

As far as single target damage, my final attack of the dagger chain can crit for anywhere between 5-6k. Try and tell me that is crap especially considering how rapidly daggers hit. My death shroud #1 also crits for 6-7k.

Power/crit berserker builds do massive damage and I would consider a glass cannon necro build to have more survivabilty than a glass cannon warrior.

I just don’t get what kind of gear and builds that you are using that obviously suck so bad.

I have never, ever, seen these kinds of numbers, even when running full berserkers gear. Are you hitting up leveled people or something to achieve those kinds of numbers? You should never base your damage on anyone that has a green arrow on their name.

At best, well of suffering crits for approx 1k-1.5k per pulse, well of corruption about 600. Life blast crits, at best, for approx. 4.5k against a glass target. Dagger final attack will crit, against a glass thief, for 3.5k at most. Maybe 4k if you manage to get the vuln to stack up a bit. Death Shroud 4 I’ve only ever seen go as high as 4k on a single target. I can’t speak for staff auto, highest I’ve ever seen that hit for is 1.4k. That damage is actually rather low when you start comparing them to the numbers other classes can put out on a consistent basis.

The numbers above are when I tried using a full berserker’s armor set plus accessories using a 30/20/0/0/20 build. The damage wasn’t much higher than using knights and the survivability was horrible. I literally got Steal -> CnD -> Backstab comboed by a thief and went straight to downed state using that build. Not that great of a trade off if you ask me. Obviously I don’t use that build any more.

Again, if you’re basing your numbers off up leveled targets, you’re doing it wrong. That is not an accurate assessment of the kinds of numbers anyone is capable of putting out.

Now go play a staff elementalist and come back and talk to me about AoE.

I’m talking about level 80 fractal mobs for alot of those, but I still hit for a heck of a lot more than your numbers on level 80 opponents in WvW. In WvW my well of suffering indeed crits for 2k and my well of corruption crits for 1k. I am wearing all berserker exotic armor and ascended accessories. Just as another FYI, I play on a tier 1 server so it is extremely rare to encounter an upleveled opponent b/c the competition is so stiff on all of the servers that low levels get chewed out if they step foot into a WvW map.

I run a glass cannon build when running with a zerg b/c I can safely stand in the backlines and blast the opponents. If I want to solo roam of course I don’t run a glass cannon build. I instead run a more control-oriented chill build with minions for that (and all soldier’s gear)

Staff eles can’t pull off the same AoE damage in WvW simply b/c their AoE can’t hit as reliably as a necros (cast times, etc…).

I question what your exact build and gear is when you play a true glass cannon.

I think Kravick, like many others, loves the necro to the core, and it result in a big love/hate relationship. I can really relate to his feeling though, and I like having both sides of a coin to the forums instead of just one.

I did the same thing he did, leveled a mesmer, guardian and soon, engi to 80. They all have better mechanics and better access to direct damage (and even conditions in some case) WHILE still having easy access to lifesaver abilities (target drop, stealth, stability, invulnerability), which are normally better in WvW/PvP situation, where you’re not fighting veterans and the guy in front of you melt with the right setup while you’re evading all retribution.

On my solo roaming travels in the Borderlands, I love my necro. I play him mostly hybrid, he’s one of the fastest and easiest solo camp taker I have (Epidemic makes them melt away fast). I can’t deny that. I also love the way we manage boons and conditions, and I like him most when dealing with sieges.

But against other players, my 3 others classes have better options to deal with small opposition and survive, and it has all to do with meta or whatever direction the game is going.

Right now, in my opinion, Direct Damage trumps condition damage by a large margin. Even more if you stack Vulnerability and Might. When I roam with my brother who’s an Static Discharge full berserker engineer, the only thing I (can) do is fear our target and he litteraly down him in 1-2 seconds because of the burst available in WvW (You can’t even compare the damage of a full berserker in sPvP and WvW, it’s insane). Yet, defensive stats doesn’t scale as much.

All my conditions are wasted, dont even have time to stack them and then I wouldn’t even been able to cast Epidemic.

Small roaming group is almost all about burst right now, and necro is far from the top dog in those scenarios, but those scenarios are what small scale groups encounter the most, hence I can understand the lack of “fun” playing that class vs playing another one.

I still get the most fun out of this class, but I can clearly see that other professions are performing better in our own field (the attrition master described by the dev).

Panhauramix.2784:

On my solo roaming travels in the Borderlands, I love my necro. I play him mostly hybrid, he’s one of the fastest and easiest solo camp taker I have (Epidemic makes them melt away fast). I can’t deny that. I also love the way we manage boons and conditions, and I like him most when dealing with sieges.

But against other players, my 3 others classes have better options to deal with small opposition and survive, and it has all to do with meta or whatever direction the game is going.

Right now, in my opinion, Direct Damage trumps condition damage by a large margin. Even more if you stack Vulnerability and Might. When I roam with my brother who’s an Static Discharge full berserker engineer, the only thing I (can) do is fear our target and he litteraly down him in 1-2 seconds because of the burst available in WvW (You can’t even compare the damage of a full berserker in sPvP and WvW, it’s insane). Yet, defensive stats doesn’t scale as much.

All my conditions are wasted, dont even have time to stack them and then I wouldn’t even been able to cast Epidemic.

Small roaming group is almost all about burst right now, and necro is far from the top dog in those scenarios, but those scenarios are what small scale groups encounter the most, hence I can understand the lack of “fun” playing that class vs playing another one.

I still get the most fun out of this class, but I can clearly see that other professions are performing better in our own field (the attrition master described by the dev).

This is a great statement. It’s like I told some followers on reddit. The necro does the no wow stuff so our contribution sometimes feels unseen. Our biggest issues in these situations is that almost all of our attacks have either extended cast times, long cd’s, channel (dagger auto withstanding), or have extremely slow projectiles. This means in havoc squad fights you essentially have to do all the little things to make sure your team is rolling. Such as quick stack vuln, use fear to peal, and protect your thieves, warriors, and mesmers.

The bigger issue at hand is that because the scaling of offensive stats in wvwvw is incredible compared to defensive stats you end up with a lot of burst being driven out. Such as no one can stand up to 2 guys in full zerker gear hitting you, but you can kill two guys in pvt gear if you are running zerker.

This puts you in the unappealing part of sometimes having very little to do in a fight.

Nemesis.8593:

So let me see if i understand correctly…

A glass cannon warrior drags all monsters (without a taunt system) in one place while building up stacks of might… then proceeds to do 35k damage 100B with cleave on 3 targets.

Let’s assume for a second he doesn’t die by doing that, and he can maintain agro… while not dying as a glass cannon.

I don’t have a problem doing this and not dying as a glass cannon. You don’t actually engage those targets until they stack up. The same thing can also be said about necromancers, though. If the necromancer is by himself, those veterans aren’t going to just be standing there allowing you to hit them. They’re going to be chasing you just as easily, but we’re both talking about group fights in dungeons, so on to how that works. Its also not just Hundred Blades you have to factor in. There is Whirlwind as well. I’ll explain more below.

So my question to you is this, Nemesis. Have you ever been present to a CoF speed run with 3 warriors, 1 guardian, and a mesmer? Because yes, thats exactly what happens. Everyone stacks up, or has the mesmer pull everything to a corner with Temporal Curtain. Then the three glass cannon warriors go to town. When all the NPCs are stacked up against a wall, whirlwind is also a big factor in damage output. If you spin it against the wall with all the NPCs stacked on you, the warrior never moves, and the NPCs take all the damage from whirlwind. So really, its both Hundred Blades and Whirlwind that is throwing out so much damage. Things die SO FAST that it doesn’t matter if you’re glass or not. The guardian is there to provide Aegis and Protection to everyone. You honestly never get hit more than once or twice before everything is dead. On boss fights, the same thing happens only this time the mesmer drops Time Warp. I kid you not, and this is not even an exaggeration, the bosses die in less than 15 seconds.

Now do you see why necromancers are not part of this meta? You just cannot achieve that kind of damage output with a necromancer. Especially against multiple targets. Even our highest DPS build relies on bleeding damage, which takes time to do its work. In this game, direct damage and burst beats condition any day.

There is also warrior axe builds to consider as well. Axe doesn’t have the burst GS does, but it has incredible sustain, that over a period of greater than 20-30 seconds, axe starts to out damage GS by a large margin, and continues to do so the longer the fight lasts. Axe is better against single boss encounters because of this. The axe build isn’t that much different from the GS build either. In fact there is a build that allows you to switch just 2 traits before a fight and you go from GS to axe, which is what I use when I do speed runs.

I don’t know if you saw my edit way back, I kind of made the change a few hours after the post, but I want to say that I hope you’re not taking any of this personally. I still respect you and you’ve brought a lot to this community, and even shown me things I wasn’t aware of, but I simply can’t see this class as complete until we’re brought up to the same level as the other classes.

I think Kravick, like many others, loves the necro to the core, and it result in a big love/hate relationship. I can really relate to his feeling though, and I like having both sides of a coin to the forums instead of just one.

I did the same thing he did, leveled a mesmer, guardian and soon, engi to 80. They all have better mechanics and better access to direct damage (and even conditions in some case) WHILE still having easy access to lifesaver abilities (target drop, stealth, stability, invulnerability), which are normally better in WvW/PvP situation, where you’re not fighting veterans and the guy in front of you melt with the right setup while you’re evading all retribution.

This. I want to love this class like its my one and only child, but there are some seriously questionable design decisions going on here. Even the most die hard necromancer fan still has to admit at the end of the day that we’re not the masters of attrition that ANet has envisioned for us right now. I could honestly not give a kitten about the necromancers damage output. I’m fine with it as it is, but our survivability is completely out of whack with the rest of the games mechanics. DS is a poor substitute when compared to mechanics that out right evade, avoid, or completely block incoming damage.

I question what your exact build and gear is when you play a true glass cannon.

30/15/0/0/25 everything berserkers, ruby orbs, ascended rings, dagger/warhorn axe/focus, fire sigil in main weapons, force sigil in off weapons, crit chance oil, 10% crit chance food. Hits really hard, but I’ve never achieved the numbers you speak of with this build.

I do not consider this viable in WvW. You just die way to easily. Thieves will destroy you before you can blink. DS will not save you.

Kravick.4906:

Criselli.7462:

Sure an engineer with 409 can cure conditions one at a time via elixir toss/drink, but while they’re doing that you can still be applying conditions while he is busy doinkittenage and attempting to cleanse them. And every single one of those elixirs is going to give him a boon of some sort for you to finally corrupt in the end. Not only that but engineer conditions are applied at a relatively short range compared to the necros.

I have two engineers at level 80 and I am VERY much aware of their limitations. And even if they’re covered in boons doesn’t mean you can’t be destroying them with conditions or other damage…

You only need to clear the bleeding stacks to stop a condition necro from doing anything to you. Necromancers stack bleeding very slowly. Because of the way the condition removal system works, last condition applied is the first condition removed, bleeding is always the first condition to be removed. Range is also not an issue against a necromancer. Whats he going to do? Run away from you? They have no mobility skills to get away, so feel free to stand right on top of them while you out damage them with your burning and confusion, which necros can’t do, on top of your own bleeding and poison. Getting to much for you to handle? Pop Elixir S and heal yourself without fear of being interrupted, or drop a supply crate which applies more burning from flame turret and gives you health packs. Use Gear Shield to take some pressure off. Knock down the necro with Magnet.

I may not have the experience you do playing one, but I’ve seen plenty of engineers and what they do to me. It frickin hurts. At no point do I ever feel threatened when a necromancer shows up. An engineer on the other hand, I’ve learned to approach them with caution, because they can seriously hurt you very quickly, or turn out to be one of the tankiest kittens this game has ever seen. I have watched 1 engineer bunker a point against 4 people, and do so for a good solid minute before backup finally arrived.

Also, Signet of Spite? Just… no. I shouldn’t need to explain why that was a very bad skill to bring up. 5 seconds of conditions on a 90 second cool down? Yeesh, such a bad skill.

I do agree Signet of Spite needs rework, but it does have it’s uses. Granted there are far better choices.

Engineers probably take more work than any other class to be effective. Particularly ones with 2 or more kits loaded. If you see an engineer using multiple kits in the same fight I can promise you he has at most 2 elixirs loaded. Assuming they’re cleansing the bleeds, poison is pretty effective at curtailing any medkits from the supply crate. Engies healing power comes from the toughness tree which people usually don’t go more than 10 points in, even bunkers.

The staff 2-3-4 combo wrecks my engineers pretty effectively and can apply huge pressure forcing a condition curing spree. My engineer favors dual pistols with 4 elixirs loaded. And yes if you cover me in conditions I will cleanse them all, but I won’t be hitting you or your friends while I’m doing that. Elixir load-outs are pretty much the last bastion of engy dominance. So plan on dealing with 409 every time.

I’ve never had an issue with magnet. It’s tell is fairly obvious and if you have spectral walk ready hit it as soon as you see it and you walk recall after the pull instantly. Engineers are definitely one of our toughest opponents, but fortunately they are the least played class.

As for condimancers I think damage over duration is the way to go. If engies and other classes are cleansing a ton you want those conditions to hit as hard as possible while they’re on. Duration is great for pve, but not wvw.

As a melee power necro engineers don’t cause nearly as many problems. Keep a staff handy for the long range fights. Unblockable marks means gear shield is useless well.

EDIT: Fixed some grammatical errors (I’m sure some remain)

Nemesis.8593:

It was me that compared the warrior with the necromancer over 10 seconds. The point was that the necromancer took 12 seconds to do it, but he also adds up to 25 stacks of vulnerability. So even though the necromancer’s damage is 20-25% lower then the warrior’s, he gives the warrior + the entire team 25% more damage overall.

My point was that necromancer power damage = 75%‘s of warrior damage + 25% increased warrior damage (because you increase the warrior’s damage) + more damage for the party… It’s… balanced in a way…

You also compared a single target build vs a warrior’s cleave, over a period of time which can not be accurate, yes… as bursting out 3 single normal mobs, the warrior would win. How about we calculate DPS vs 5 veteran mobs over… how ever much time it takes for them to die… 30 seconds.

I’ll do the math for the necromancer since i know it by heart… full condition build has 1800 condition damage (even more with the new ascended gear) and 133% bleeding duration + blood is power = 2150 condition damage and 25 stacks of bleeding on the target… which equals a DPS of exactly 3750 just from bleeding + the small scepter auto -attacks. Let’s call it 4k dps… omg so small… a warrior does so much more omg. Ok… let’s take our 4k DPS x 5 epidemic every 12 seconds, in a radious of 600 at a range of 1200.

Spikes of 20k DPS (minimum + DS 4 + bleeding AOEs normal damage + external buffs… you can get up to 25k DPS) every 12 seconds, while being extremely tanky, while having the ability to heal and support the party, while being at range.

So back to my original benchmark… 5 veteran mobs spread around a room… warrior vs necromancer.

Good job presenting perfect situation where everything is one sided. That’s the best way to make a compelling argument. Good job. You sir convinced me of your superior thought process. Like your claims that you > everyone else in wvw. Yep. I’m totally convinced.
A party that consists of 2 people? Why exactly you assume all mobs with stay close enough for your trashy epidemic? Why do you assume nobody else on gods green earth will use bleeds(the most common and given to everybody condition)? It’s like theoretical quantum physics debate…. so much assuming it makes my head hurt.
Stop assuming you are better then everyone else. Stop assuming perfect scenario in controlled environment makes any kind of point in real practice.
I’m so bloody tired of people and their videos of ganking underleveld and undergreated people throwing big numbers around in their own self imposed scenarios and claiming everything is amazing and everyone else is a scrub who needs to l2p.
Your “skill” is only as good as environment allows it to be. You are nothing against a zerg. You are completely and utterly unimportant. Without others you make no difference of any kind past being there and talking smack like its your job.
I held back from being a kitten about your posts for a while simply because you tried to be helpful but you know what… you are not helpful. You just think your opinion is for some obscure reason better then next guys opinion.
DPS is an arbitrary number. If you are not useful in the given scenario then unless your dps allows to simply instantly bypass that scenario it serves no purpose past being a forums badge.
If you speak of solo pve then thats one thing. But you insist on using group scenarios where you are not the one and only atraction where everyone else has to bend over to support your way of playing. 1 thief that simply likes to play condtions and now your usefulnes halved right there. What else do your bring besides that? Hmm? Ah yes thats right you dumped everything in conditions in hopes nobody else dares to use them while you are there and every last enemy conviniently stays packed stacked awaiting your epidemics.
What use are your conditions when fighting a tower? Your epidemic will never hit anyone ontop who isn’t purposely leaning off to accommodate epidemics newest nerf. Maybe eles now should have direct los for firestorm let them have some fun with invisible projectiles that hit invisible walls too. And rangers too while we are at it. Let everyone have some fun with that. Lets turn all aoe into invisible projectiles and turn this into a contest of whos got better luck.
Pulling lots of numbers and scenarios from your kitten doesn’t make them a fact. Even if I appreciated effort given into explaining mechanics to newer players it all gets overshadowed by onesided argument where your pov overshadows every conceivable variable.

nolop.8095:

This video is a very good representation of the necros state in PvE. It’s no guide but gives a fair overview on how it feels playing a necro.

>>click<<

I dont feel this is how necro is. but it made me lmao XD

Every Necro build has it weaknesses. Well Necro has no stun breaks and limited stability. Spectral necro has awesome stun breaks/stability but little aoe. Condition necro may or may not have stun breaks and stability and MM necros are irrelevant ;p.

You can’t make blanket statements about the entire necro community because honestly we do have access to just about everything. Just not all of it in one build.

I think the balance issue comes out of how a few other classes CAN have their cake and eat it too. Like warriors for instance.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Good job presenting perfect situation where everything is one sided. That’s the best way to make a compelling argument. Good job. You sir convinced me of your superior thought process. Like your claims that you > everyone else in wvw. Yep. I’m totally convinced.

more stuff

Whoa there buddy, no need to get so hostile. I want to keep this discussion civil. I agree that hes using one sided scenarios, but you don’t need to insult the guy.

I dont feel this is how necro is. but it made me lmao XD

My favorite part is where the kid crashes into that truck and explodes. Sometimes I feel like that.

Kravick.4906:

HiSaZuL.2843:

Good job presenting perfect situation where everything is one sided. That’s the best way to make a compelling argument. Good job. You sir convinced me of your superior thought process. Like your claims that you > everyone else in wvw. Yep. I’m totally convinced.

more stuff

Whoa there buddy, no need to get so hostile. I want to keep this discussion civil. I agree that hes using one sided scenarios, but you don’t need to insult the guy.

I dont feel this is how necro is. but it made me lmao XD

My favorite part is where the kid crashes into that truck and explodes. Sometimes I feel like that.

There really wasn’t a need I agree with that… Perhaps my opinion isn’t shared even by minority but I’m just simply fed up with people tossing some random number out and defining every last thing by that number. But as soon as I see someone tossing out a blasted claim how amazing their perceived “skills” in pvp are, my roof just goes flying out of the window. I’d rather play with a bunch of people that haven’t figured out what skills do yet then some someone like that. Worst part the more people brag the least they usually have to show. Maybe he really is “amazing” tho i really have a hard time accepting some sort of criteria for that in activity that suppose to simply be fun.
I can always easily toss out situations and scenarios where a condition necro brings an absolute 0 to the table. As in any scenario with weak fragile mobs in large hordes while you are protecting something. By the time you land 1 bleed things are dead and gone.
Its like jungle wyrm… exactly what does a condition necro bring for that fight? If he simply said that despite all claims of opposite he found necro to be simply fun. I’d quietly accept that. Even when I can’t agree that necro is even remotely well off I still play full MM… Because I like the concept and in some situation it does ocasionaly shine. But he didn’t.

Kravick.4906:

Nemesis.8593:

So let me see if i understand correctly…

A glass cannon warrior drags all monsters (without a taunt system) in one place while building up stacks of might… then proceeds to do 35k damage 100B with cleave on 3 targets.

Let’s assume for a second he doesn’t die by doing that, and he can maintain agro… while not dying as a glass cannon.

I don’t have a problem doing this and not dying as a glass cannon. You don’t actually engage those targets until they stack up. The same thing can also be said about necromancers, though. If the necromancer is by himself, those veterans aren’t going to just be standing there allowing you to hit them. They’re going to be chasing you just as easily, but we’re both talking about group fights in dungeons, so on to how that works. Its also not just Hundred Blades you have to factor in. There is Whirlwind as well. I’ll explain more below.

So my question to you is this, Nemesis. Have you ever been present to a CoF speed run with 3 warriors, 1 guardian, and a mesmer? Because yes, thats exactly what happens. Everyone stacks up, or has the mesmer pull everything to a corner with Temporal Curtain. Then the three glass cannon warriors go to town. When all the NPCs are stacked up against a wall, whirlwind is also a big factor in damage output. If you spin it against the wall with all the NPCs stacked on you, the warrior never moves, and the NPCs take all the damage from whirlwind. So really, its both Hundred Blades and Whirlwind that is throwing out so much damage. Things die SO FAST that it doesn’t matter if you’re glass or not. The guardian is there to provide Aegis and Protection to everyone. You honestly never get hit more than once or twice before everything is dead. On boss fights, the same thing happens only this time the mesmer drops Time Warp. I kid you not, and this is not even an exaggeration, the bosses die in less than 15 seconds.

Now do you see why necromancers are not part of this meta? You just cannot achieve that kind of damage output with a necromancer. Especially against multiple targets. Even our highest DPS build relies on bleeding damage, which takes time to do its work. In this game, direct damage and burst beats condition any day.
shortened

When i was doing CoF speed runs with my people (all of them quit) in week 2 after release… we were rushing just 2 bosses about 20 times a day. I’ve gotten full exotic within 15 days after release. Back then i was selling exotic earrings with 12g each… i could have bought about 4 precursors at one point, but i thought they would get cheaper then 20g… what a fool i was. Me and my people were one of the first group of people that beat ALL the mobs at the survive event in CoF path 2, BEFORE the nerf which was BEFORE they change the event completely. I know what speed runs are… we were doing so many daily before you even had a daily reward. Let’s not talk about Arah boss 1 farm… we could have swore we had some GMs after us at one point.

You are correct that burst power damage > sustained condition damage if the fight is over with one burst, condition damage doesn’t have a chance to build up… but if it’s a long fight, burst damage can’t compare with condition damage… if it did condition damage would be useless, witch is not.

I don’t think i am in the wrong, the hundreds of people that have personally thanked me via PM here, in game, email, comments and other forum accounts… they thanked me for the information provided, because now they see how good necromancer can be compared to how they played it before… and last but definitely not least ArenaNet… They have made one of the most complex build system i have ever seen in an MMO, do you think the same people would just happen to make it so imbalance ?

I am not saying necromancer is perfect… in fact in brought suggestions in the past, one of it was actually implemented 2 patches ago in a different form, but it’s not as bad as people say…

HiSaZuL.2843:

Nemesis.8593:

It was me that compared the warrior with the necromancer over 10 seconds.

Good job presenting perfect situation where everything is one sided. That’s the best way to make a compelling argument. Good job. You sir convinced me of your superior thought process. Like your claims that you > everyone else in wvw. Yep. I’m totally convinced.
A party that consists of 2 people? Why exactly you assume all mobs with stay close enough for your trashy epidemic? Why do you assume nobody else on gods green earth will use bleeds(the most common and given to everybody condition)? It’s like theoretical quantum physics debate…. so much assuming it makes my head hurt.
Stop assuming you are better then everyone else. Stop assuming perfect scenario in controlled environment makes any kind of point in real practice.
I’m so bloody tired of people and their videos of ganking underleveld and undergreated people throwing big numbers around in their own self imposed scenarios and claiming everything is amazing and everyone else is a scrub who needs to l2p.
Your “skill” is only as good as environment allows it to be. You are nothing against a zerg. You are completely and utterly unimportant. Without others you make no difference of any kind past being there and talking smack like its your job.
I held back from being a kitten about your posts for a while simply because you tried to be helpful but you know what… you are not helpful. You just think your opinion is for some obscure reason better then next guys opinion.
DPS is an arbitrary number. If you are not useful in the given scenario then unless your dps allows to simply instantly bypass that scenario it serves no purpose past being a forums badge.
If you speak of solo pve then thats one thing. But you insist on using group scenarios where you are not the one and only atraction where everyone else has to bend over to support your way of playing. 1 thief that simply likes to play condtions and now your usefulnes halved right there. What else do your bring besides that? Hmm? Ah yes thats right you dumped everything in conditions in hopes nobody else dares to use them while you are there and every last enemy conviniently stays packed stacked awaiting your epidemics.
What use are your conditions when fighting a tower? Your epidemic will never hit anyone ontop who isn’t purposely leaning off to accommodate epidemics newest nerf. Maybe eles now should have direct los for firestorm let them have some fun with invisible projectiles that hit invisible walls too. And rangers too while we are at it. Let everyone have some fun with that. Lets turn all aoe into invisible projectiles and turn this into a contest of whos got better luck.
Pulling lots of numbers and scenarios from your kitten doesn’t make them a fact. Even if I appreciated effort given into explaining mechanics to newer players it all gets overshadowed by onesided argument where your pov overshadows every conceivable variable.

By one sided do you mean i did the math for the necromancer and i don’t claim to be a expert with the warrior class and therefor don’t know the math by heart, even though i did some research about it. I did the math for the necromancer because i know it by heart… that’s how much i have calculated everything.

You’ve also said i’ve made a lot of claims i did not… You are entitled to your own opinion and i will not dignify this aggressive post with a response.

What i will say is this… i have helped so many people, individually… they respectfully whispered me in game with questions, with gear combinations, with different builds, and i took the time to answer and not rush anyone. I’ve spent in total i think hundreds of hours just answering people in game… and on youtube. Sometimes people just needed a bit more encouragement witch is exactly the opposite of L2P.

Next time you want to say something like that about me… don’t…
It’s not like i care too much… i’ve had so many thank you PMs i’ve lost count. This is what matters to me…

I will exit this conversation now, after all the work i’ve put in… i’ve lost the patience to answer the aggressive ones as well. I remember i did this in the past a few times, even though i knew even then it was pointless.

I will continue to help who ever asks for it…

Nemesis.8593:

I will exit this conversation now, after all the work i’ve put in… i’ve lost the patience to answer the aggressive ones as well. I remember i did this in the past a few times, even though i knew even then it was pointless.

I will continue to help who ever asks for it…

Just pointless argueing, i try to avoid posting about balance for this reason lol. I appreciate your builds and testing you have done on necromancers nemesis. I’m stealing your beserker build when i have the money to buy everything i want for it :p

Nemesis.8593:

When i was doing CoF speed runs with my people (all of them quit) in week 2 after release… we were rushing just 2 bosses about 20 times a day. I’ve gotten full exotic within 15 days after release. Back then i was selling exotic earrings with 12g each… i could have bought about 4 precursors at one point, but i thought they would get cheaper then 20g… what a fool i was. Me and my people were one of the first group of people that beat ALL the mobs at the survive event in CoF path 2, BEFORE the nerf which was BEFORE they change the event completely. I know what speed runs are… we were doing so many daily before you even had a daily reward. Let’s not talk about Arah boss 1 farm… we could have swore we had some GMs after us at one point.

You are correct that burst power damage > sustained condition damage if the fight is over with one burst, condition damage doesn’t have a chance to build up… but if it’s a long fight, burst damage can’t compare with condition damage… if it did condition damage would be useless, witch is not.

I don’t think i am in the wrong, the hundreds of people that have personally thanked me via PM here, in game, email, comments and other forum accounts… they thanked me for the information provided, because now they see how good necromancer can be compared to how they played it before… and last but definitely not least ArenaNet… They have made one of the most complex build system i have ever seen in an MMO, do you think the same people would just happen to make it so imbalance ?

I am not saying necromancer is perfect… in fact in brought suggestions in the past, one of it was actually implemented 2 patches ago in a different form, but it’s not as bad as people say…

Since you don’t fully understand the warrior mechanics, and the fact that axe can be swapped out on bosses for greater sustained damage, I don’t think you’re seeing the bigger picture here.

This is what I don’t understand. You base all of your math on a 10 second fight that had no hard numbers associated with it. Just a time to kill scenario. This isn’t even factoring in what kind of damage output can be achieved over a greater amount of time. You then use that 10 second fight to base all of your scenarios around, including boss fights which typically last a couple minutes or so. Then you come up with a scenario that vastly favors the necromancers with imaginary immobile NPCs that always stay far enough apart so that the warrior can never cleave them, and then you claim necromancers can easily keep up with warriors in terms of DPS. Then you never even consider the sustained damage warrior axe has. None of this sits well with me. None of it.

Also, when I asked if you had been in a meta group before, you completely sidestepped the question. Then you start talking about experiences at the start of the game which has nothing to do with what is being discussed now. I’m talking about current meta. Not something that happened 6 months ago. You can’t do that any more. I honestly don’t think you are actually aware of how much damage, and how fast things get killed, by the group composition I spoke of. The other classes are not invited to those sort of things simply because they just can’t keep up.

I’m sorry, but your scenarios are flawed, and completely one sided. You’ve got the necromancer math right, I can’t argue against that, but with nothing else to properly compare it too, it means nothing in the grand scheme. I cannot accept anything you produce as truth until you give us another classes raw math to compare necromancers too. You also need to include scenarios that go in their favor as well, because if you don’t all you’re doing is trying to make necromancers look better than they are.

There is also personal experience to go by. Any time I am in a group with a necromancer on any of the other classes I play, I notice it takes a lot longer to kill things. I can’t say what builds they have or if they’re even being played properly, but its just the way things feel. When a necromancer joins the party, I know the dungeon is going to take longer to finish.

Its great that so many people have thanked you, but that doesn’t really mean anything to this discussion. It honestly feels like you’re side stepping my argument instead of trying to solidify your point, which you haven’t done. I’m talking about your one sided scenarios here, not the fact you’re helping people out, which is great that you’re doing BTW. I even learned a few things from you myself. However, I’m seeing a lot of confirmation bias here.

@Kravick:
Thanks for setting the record straight, I feel exactly like you do with Necromancer in everything you have explained. I can’t understand people defending the current state this class is in, they can’t have tried other professions at the same level and gearing. I have used both berserker, rampage and rabid gear with different trait-setups and the damage and support are just mediocre compared to what the other classes bring to the table.

So many of our skills are focused around AoE bleeds, yet neither Death shroud nor Lich form benefit squat from stacking condition damage, making them literally useless with such a build other than delay certain death in DS case. Left is Plague which is a gimmick at best and Flesh golem which still are riddled with the same bugs since release. Worst elite skills out of all classes imo and a serious case of schizophrenia among the traits.

In WvW Necromancer is my least favorite to bring in both zergs and roaming. On paper the AoE might look good, but due to condition removers, the damage being done are just so much less than what other classes can dish out. At the end of a session even my support Guardian have more badges in the bags, which baffled me the first times it happened. Wall of Reflection turned out to be a better AoE damager than a fully AoE specced Necromancer using all his skills.

Until Anet get their kitten together and start focusing on correcting the game more than putting in off-tracked stuff like SAB, my Necromancer will continue to being shelved in every aspect of the game, along with my equally useless Ranger.

Not to sound like I’m picking sides or anything but I pretty much agree with Kravick. I do not play PvE so I can’t speak on that, but PvP Necro isn’t that great. Personally I think condimancer is the only real viable way to play them, and that’s my main beef with the class.

I saw a lot of huge numbers in this discussion (like 4k well ticks, 5k+ lifeblast ??!) and if you’re really getting those numbers, you must be literally made of paper and have huge stacks of might, vulnerability stacks, etc etc. Basically perfect scenario that really doesn’t happen that often. Meanwhile a thief (or even an ele/engi) could drop in without boons or anything, drop that same amount of damage, then have multiple ways to disengage.

Power build needs buff plain and simple. It doesn’t even need a lot, just simple kitten. Like why are all our spells so slow? Maybe if dark path didn’t travel at the speed of a snail we would have a halfway decent gap closer. Maybe if Dark Pact didn’t have EASILY the MOST OBVIOUS slow animation, it wouldn’t get dodged/blocked 95% of the time by halfway decent players. Maybe fix the 2nd trait line, (I forget the name) so that it had some good power traits and people might actually see a reason to put 30pts there for non condi builds.

All of our siphons simply do not steal enough health to make up for our non existent mobility/escape. So we essentially have a useless trait line. Speaking of useless trait lines, we have a trait line with our best sources of defense paired up with literally useless minor traits (Death magic). Lol, I mean at the very least make Jagged Horror considered a “minion”. Maybe take some of those nifty dagger traits and put them into the curses tree ? (Haha I remembered the name)

Iunno man, basically I think our trait tree sucks. All our skills are so slow and easy to avoid. (lol signet of locust, you take more damage while channeling the cast than you actually heal) We have no mobility, which is coo imo if we got some real damage mitigation or better siphoning. Gah .. Oh yea, I want to be clear this is all speaking from a Power builds perspective.

So to answer the OPs question. I think Necros are fine if you’re playing condi. If you’re doing anything else (power, MM) you are just doing it worse than any other class could do it.