Guild Wars 2

…the revenant is our class all over again.

Utilities aren’t really useful or too much situational. Lack of synergy between weapon-traits-legendary stance (aka the class mechanic). Long and unjustified cast times.

Arena.net didn’t learn anything from the necromancer and they are making the same mistakes, now with a way lower dps.

Maybe an angry mob of HoT prepurchasers will make them realize that things like 250-500 ms skill lag “by design” aren’t, and will never be, fun nor effective in their current gameplay.

I know it’s a beta and some specializations/stances are missing. But IMHO the major problems are “faults by design” and they need a rework, not just tweaking.

Soon necromancers won’t be the bottom of the barrel anymore, because someone else will rank lower. Or they learn how to fix their core design choices and maybe we get fixed too.

Seriously, how could they repeat the same mistakes.?

Revs actually play support like a pro. I would argue necros that have been waiting for that support utility patch to switch to rev and you’ll likely be happier with it. Dodge roll cleansing allies of conditions? Easy stab application with a very short cooldown? Lots of traits to increase healing done to allies? That’s pretty much combining support eles with Guardian’s bread & butter into one class. Not to mention resistance application to allies. Or an Elite ability that actually helps allies reduce damage taken. If you like playing support, you’ll like playing a rev.

Currently revs lack raw power to make things pop, but I suspect they’ll rectify that because this is the new class afterall. I have no doubt they’ll boost them by release date, and make them good across the board. They have to sell the class to entice players to come back to the game.

As a necro, I love their yellow brick road (Inspiring Reinforcement). I’ve never had that much stab on me during combat. With all the revs running around today, it’s quite nice.

“Its a beta” – ANet
“OMG WHY ISN’T THIS PROFESSION PERFECT” – testers

And we wonder why they don’t come on the forums.

Charblaze.6958:

I know it’s a beta and some specializations/stances are missing. But IMHO the mayor problems are “faults by design” and they need a rework, not just tweaking.

Bhawb.7408:

“Its a beta” – ANet
“OMG WHY ISN’T THIS PROFESSION PERFECT” – testers

And we wonder why they don’t come on the forums.

> Reading is too stronk.
> Doesn’t know the difference between beta and alfa stages.
> Misses the point of “faulty by design” and “repeating the same mistakes” relevant to the necro.

Revenant was designed for one purpose. To be worse than necro so necros can stop complaining. Effectiveness is over 9000.

Revenant isn’t that bad, tbh.

Unyielding Anguish is awesome.
Spamming skills has never been so punished.

It’s just that Revenant tries to stick to GW2 concepts of “abilities with clear tell” etc. and other professions, maybe except Necro and Ranger, don’t give flying kitten.

And has low damage. But profession is not nearly complete and I’m still waiting for Shiro.

Overall gameplay is fun, but it requires skill. Like a lot of skill. Could get way better than almost every Revenant I spotted over the day, but I know I’m still not nearly enough max potential.

Ventari is other thing – It requires brain. From your allies. And that’s the main problem.

lordhelmos.7623:

Revenant was designed for one purpose. To be worse than necro so necros can stop complaining. Effectiveness is over 9000.

I must admit, it is somewhat delicious to see others brought into the struggles that necros are facing daily. They are like “omg this is terrible, how can this be!??!”

They’re in our world now.

what kind of conclusion are people drawing? the traits follow the old system in concept and were not updated and likely need a rework to compensate

its a beta for a reason the class is not even half way finished!

Bhawb.7408:

“Its a beta” – ANet
“OMG WHY ISN’T THIS PROFESSION PERFECT” – testers

And we wonder why they don’t come on the forums.

See here is the thing, typically I would agree but revenant is not just imperfect, it is a complete disaster of a class. I would happily give Anet the benefit of the doubt and say perhaps there is a few things they want to test specifically, perhaps bugs before rolling out the rest of the class, or synergy between the traits already released. The reason i can’t is because of history. They seem to not know how to balance a class that works fundamentally different from what Guild Wars 2 combat is about.

Look at necro, they decided to give this class no mobility but at the same time give us virtually no stability meanwhile every other class can stun chain. Please explain how that makes sense. They finally give us FTG stun break after 2 years but the only way to take advantage of it is to not be squishy outside the only effective defense we have which is shroud. After 3 years we finally get good stability on the reaper but now we are seeing mind boggling nerfs in other areas such as chilling darkness. How could they sit there and justify a 5 sec ICD on a 2 sec chill duration when all the AoE blinds last 5-6 secs.

Personally im not going any where near Revenant with a 10 foot pole if at least one of the next two legends doesnt have any mobility skills. Can’t believe they are making the same mistakes after 3 years. Can only hope this is just a bug/synergy test and they really have learned a few things.

Rym.1469:

It’s just that Revenant tries to stick to GW2 concepts of “abilities with clear tell” etc. and other professions, maybe except Necro and Ranger, don’t give flying kitten.

THIS!

Rym.1469:

And has low damage. But profession is not nearly complete and I’m still waiting for Shiro.

Yes, but it’s missing only 1/4 of the class. Whatever there is in that 1/4 it shouldn’t be what makes the whole class work.

Rym.1469:

Revenant isn’t that bad, tbh.

Unyielding Anguish is awesome.
Spamming skills has never been so punished.
[…]
Overall gameplay is fun, but it requires skill. Like a lot of skill. Could get way better than almost every Revenant I spotted over the day, but I know I’m still not nearly enough max potential.

Ventari is other thing – It requires brain. From your allies. And that’s the main problem.

I tested the revenant with a friend and we had some fun doing silly things like staking 12 might with a mace, you have to do a “dragonball fusion”, unpractical but funny to watch. We halway duoed AC too, if you coordinate really well you can do good things but the results weren’t worth the effort at all.

The point is that some of the issues seem the byproduct of design choices that don’t fit well in the game, poor trait synergies, and highly situational tools/balance.

I was really interested in the revenant, but I can’t unsee the shadow of the necromancer lingering over it and that “scares” me. As much as I love this game, I can’t bear to get invested in another profession and then get the “necro treatment” again.

@Oslaf: Not really. Beta is for polishing and minor changes. This is either early alpha or a flawed design.

@Ragion: Well said.

Revenant:
-Resource management
-Long cooldowns on heal skills at least
-Situational utilities
-Cast times
-Telegraphs
-Distinct weaknesses
-Weak-ish autoattacks
This should be the design of all classes, not just revenant. I absolutely loved the feel of the skills and it was a ton of fun to try and learn the class instead of it being extremely simplistic with no depth. Unfortunately, right now it’s the odd one out with actually good design that involves a ton of counterplay.

Why play revenant and not a thief that has:
-Basically no resource management
-No cooldowns
-1200 range 2-way blink that breaks stun both ways, instant no cast time and removes conditions for utility
-Instant casts on high impact skills
-No telegraphs whatsoever
-No distinct weaknesses
-Stealth
-2 weapon sets
-Extremely strong autoattacks

My point and sincere wish being that we get to see revenant-like reworks to ALL the classes so we might actually be able to call this game an esport some day with a straight face.

PS.
Yes the skillsets and such felt like they had poor synergy but I’d file that under the missing traits, weapons and utilities. The individual parts felt great but you couldn’t make a coherent set out of them with what we had available here.

lordhelmos.7623:

Revenant was designed for one purpose. To be worse than necro so necros can stop complaining. Effectiveness is over 9000.

Yep I just posted about this in the main forums

I think shrio dps is going to be very good still. Everything else was support mainly and some utility

It’s too different from the rest of the game just like the facetanking of necro or the superbly telegraphed war burst skills or the permanent AI stuck with ranger. No worries band-aids are coming for the sake of HoT!! It may be ideal but an docile alien in hostile territory won’t last long.

All those comparisons of necro being godlike vs them are too much laughter for me to handle. Let the favoritism of feedback start.

Bhawb.7408:

“Its a beta” – ANet
“OMG WHY ISN’T THIS PROFESSION PERFECT” – testers

And we wonder why they don’t come on the forums.

Can we be friends? I like the cut of your jib.

After playing Revenant for a bit, I think it has a lot of promise. I’m not that impressed by the weapon skills, but I think once they work on the traits a bit more, and we see the finished product, it will be my secondary main after necro. Good support, i like the healing aspect. But…I think some resistance stuff should be given stability. But again, have to wait and see.

I’m actually quite comfortable with the revenant. Its far stronger than a necromancer for sure. Especially when you consider you have a support spec, defensive spec and condition spec. You have neither of the raw damaging specializations.

I managed to 1 on 1 duel a Revenent in WvW yesterday, using my zerker well Necro.
He couldnt even bring me below 90% HP due to tickling damage. But granted, maybe he was just really kittenty at the Revenant, lol.

Them roads though. Rev is going to be meta in WvW just because of support skills, I expect 20 man guild groups to bring about 2 of them. I dont think they will replace backline peeps, I think they will replace a couple of Guardians. Really depend on how tanky you can make them though, I havent tried.

Does it matter? Because i don’t think players will play with the revenant for long they will probably play the elite specialization.

It’s ok. The biggest problem with Rev right now is the huge opportunity costs of using one legend over another and being stuck with one very role focused weapon. Rev is pretty much locked into one role at any given time. There’s some issues with Energy generation and the overall DPS of weapons too. The weapons really need to be multi-purpose unlike legends. I also found condi to be lackluster DPS, unwieldy and has no synergy outside of mace/axe/demon legend.

I guess we will have to wait for the DPS weapon/legend and for whatever changes they make based on feedback.

On the subject of Rev support which I found to be the most robust, is almost the polar opposite of Necro support design wise.

Rev sustain/support builds focus almost entirely on outgoing heal spam and lots of micro-management that sacrifices weapon use as an opportunity cost. Basically spamming Ventari’s will, Natural Harmony and Staff AA (if equipped) or Hammer AA and 2, then waiting for Rolling Mist buffed fury to trigger so you can semi-spike and actually do “some” damage . Healing is all you do and VERY well, but offer little else.

Necro sustain/support is passively traited or slapped on to shroud skill use or mechanics, requiring near zero micro-management, is universal to condi or power based builds and virtually has no opportunity cost in combat. This means we can follow our full DPS rotations while delivering our full support naturally. My support necro can sustain, support, AoE DPS/pressure, boon corrupt, condi transfer and cc all at once, even if the healing is a lot less over time.

Honestly between playing Necro support while roaming in a group/zerg tonight and playing a Rev, my Necro was performing better. Transfusion was getting 7K heals to those that needed them over 600 range. It was teleporting back downed players to backline for revives. My Necro was successfully reviving more people and not dieing, compared to my Rev that died even while spamming Natural Harmony while reviving. Lastly I can actually do damage on my Necro and AoE damage that easily pressures multiple toons. My Rev couldn’t sustain pressure if his life depended on it (and it does and he dies).

Could be L2P issues though.

Uuni.3561:

Revenant:
-Resource management
-Long cooldowns on heal skills at least
-Situational utilities
-Cast times
-Telegraphs
-Distinct weaknesses
-Weak-ish autoattacks
This should be the design of all classes, not just revenant. I absolutely loved the feel of the skills and it was a ton of fun to try and learn the class instead of it being extremely simplistic with no depth. Unfortunately, right now it’s the odd one out with actually good design that involves a ton of counterplay.

Why play revenant and not a thief that has:
-Basically no resource management
-No cooldowns
-1200 range 2-way blink that breaks stun both ways, instant no cast time and removes conditions for utility
-Instant casts on high impact skills
-No telegraphs whatsoever
-No distinct weaknesses
-Stealth
-2 weapon sets
-Extremely strong autoattacks

My point and sincere wish being that we get to see revenant-like reworks to ALL the classes so we might actually be able to call this game an esport some day with a straight face.

PS.
Yes the skillsets and such felt like they had poor synergy but I’d file that under the missing traits, weapons and utilities. The individual parts felt great but you couldn’t make a coherent set out of them with what we had available here.

+1, exactly my feelings.

revs will not get weapon swap. if thats the case eles should get it too

Bhawb.7408:

“Its a beta” – ANet
“OMG WHY ISN’T THIS PROFESSION PERFECT” – testers

And we wonder why they don’t come on the forums.

I agree with most everything you say except this. They asked for criticism. I forget the streamer, his names Joe but his twitch name whatever, he said anet asked him for the gods honest 100 percent truth no matter what and don’t sugarcoat it.

Granted the language here is far more civilized than on reddit, but you must admit there’s no excuse for some of this. This is I believe the third time rev is playable. There’s no way full zerk should hit for 1200. We are all aware of the class not being finished, but in this state it looks like they haven’t even started

Rym.1469:

Spamming skills has never been so punished.

This. This so much and that’s why I like the idea of rev and its why all the players are asking for weapon skills to not require energy.

Azure.8670:

I agree with most everything you say except this. They asked for criticism. I forget the streamer, his names Joe but his twitch name whatever, he said anet asked him for the gods honest 100 percent truth no matter what and don’t sugarcoat it.

Granted the language here is far more civilized than on reddit, but you must admit there’s no excuse for some of this. This is I believe the third time rev is playable. There’s no way full zerk should hit for 1200. We are all aware of the class not being finished, but in this state it looks like they haven’t even started

I understand criticism, OP didn’t propose anything though, what they brought up were very general balance problems like cast times, and then “Lack of synergy between weapon-traits-legendary stance (aka the class mechanic).” when literally half the profession isn’t in game yet. They didn’t say anything of remote use to ANet, not a single specific skill is mentioned, not one trait, not one legend, weapon, nothing but this class sucks like Necro how did ANet kitten up again.

@Bhawb: Wrong. I proposed they stop forcing profession designs that work against the game play.

Nope, It’s not missing half of the profession. It’s missing 1 of 5 trait lines and 1 of 4 legendary stances and a weapon. No, you can’t count Glint’s stance, traits and weapon, because the specialization shouldn’t be mandatory as the reaper shouldn’t be mandatory to the necromancer. If it’s really all about the missing 20% that’s even worse. It means that the class will be pidgeonholed to the same traits/weapon/stance in every game mode and playstyle.

Anyway, I only pointed out how the revenant design shows that they didn’t learn anything from the necromancer in 3 years. This is the necromancer subforum, not the revenant one. A detailed description of what doesn’t work, and a proposals on how to fix it don’t belong here. We are here to draw parallels between some questionable choices made in both classes.

But above all I’m a player and I play to have fun with his friends. Yes, I can point out what feels wrong and trow in a couple of suggestions, but I shouldn’t be the one writing design documents on how to fix broken classes.

I’m not a game designer, nor I want to be one. Even if I wanted to, I would try to land a job in the gaming industry, and not doing the job I’m kitten paying arena.net to do.

This attitude of shouting up whoever brings up an issue but doesn’t have, or wants to write, a kitten full fledged design proposal, is unhealthy and insane. It’s not like I started insulting the devs, and while I could’ve been more specific, other users understood and expanded on what I said.

Zetsumei.4975:

Rym.1469:

Spamming skills has never been so punished.

This. This so much and that’s why I like the idea of rev and its why all the players are asking for weapon skills to not require energy.

Well so much for that, apparently theyre getting weapon swap and no energy cost on weapon skills..

Zetsumei.4975:

Zetsumei.4975:

Rym.1469:

Spamming skills has never been so punished.

This. This so much and that’s why I like the idea of rev and its why all the players are asking for weapon skills to not require energy.

Well so much for that, apparently theyre getting weapon swap and no energy cost on weapon skills..

They are getting a weapon swap (as they should), but you are incorrect about the no energy cost on weapon skills. All but the auto attack costs energy.

Shiro looked amazing. Everything I wish power vampire necro was. Definitely making a Revenant now.

Cecilia.5179:

Shiro looked amazing. Everything I wish power vampire necro was. Definitely making a Revenant now.

well arenanet did read the necro forums and put all our sugestions in to the reverant gg
im rolling a reverant too rip necro

I shall rule this world Palawa Joko

Uuni.3561:

Revenant:
-Resource management
-Long cooldowns on heal skills at least
-Situational utilities
-Cast times
-Telegraphs
-Distinct weaknesses
-Weak-ish autoattacks
This should be the design of all classes, not just revenant. I absolutely loved the feel of the skills and it was a ton of fun to try and learn the class instead of it being extremely simplistic with no depth. Unfortunately, right now it’s the odd one out with actually good design that involves a ton of counterplay.

Why play revenant and not a thief that has:
-Basically no resource management
-No cooldowns
-1200 range 2-way blink that breaks stun both ways, instant no cast time and removes conditions for utility
-Instant casts on high impact skills
-No telegraphs whatsoever
-No distinct weaknesses
-Stealth
-2 weapon sets
-Extremely strong autoattacks

My point and sincere wish being that we get to see revenant-like reworks to ALL the classes so we might actually be able to call this game an esport some day with a straight face.

PS.
Yes the skillsets and such felt like they had poor synergy but I’d file that under the missing traits, weapons and utilities. The individual parts felt great but you couldn’t make a coherent set out of them with what we had available here.

See. Think the Rev was meant to be the ‘anti-thief’, not in a gameplay sense but as a design concept and the actual meaning of the word ‘anti’-thief. Look at the implementation of the weapon skills, the utility set, and the profession mechanics/resource management.

It seems clear to me. So take this into account on critiques on the Rev, but it’s obvious that this play style is another ‘unique’ one and deserves some LOVE from all of us involved. They’re trying to do something different within ‘the same’. It’s easy for us to compare Rev to anything existing, but when you start with the proposition that ‘GW2 will be like nothing else’ it’s easy to get drawn back into design concepts that are ‘yourself’. So where do we go from here?

Note: The quoted is not for a counters arguement but rather to help illustrate my point.