Chilling Darkness and Bitter Chill

Chilling Darkness and Bitter Chill

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Posted by: manveruppd.7601

manveruppd.7601

OR: How to Have Your Cake and Eat it (chilled)

OK, in the thread discussing today’s balance changes, I said that I couldn’t see how they could balance Deathly Chill without giving Chilling Darkness an ICD. I thought that, while the Chilling Darkness nerf was harsh, there was no other way around it.

I’ve now changed my mind: it occurred to me that Deathly Chill causes chill to do damage not as a “damage-over-time” effect the way every other condition does, but on-application. In other words, it’s not like Terror, where the duration of your Fear determines the amount of damage the trait does: instead it does damage when it’s applied, regardless of duration.

This is what could potentially make skills like Plague and Well of Darkness game-breaking when traited with both Chilling Darkness and Deathly Chill: because the short-duration chills caused by Chilling Darkness will proc Deathly Chill for just as much damage as the longer-duration, less frequent chills that are part of the Reaper’s weapon and Shroud skillset.

I’ve written earlier that there was no way to balance this by putting an ICD on Deathly Chill instead: most of the Reaper’s skills are aoe or cleaving, so if you put an ICD on Deathly Chill there was no way to guarantee that the chill damage would land on the person you’re actually targetting. If it procced on a ranger pet or rock dog, making the trait go on cooldown and sparing my real human target from eating the damage, I’d definitely be kittened off.

Therefore, the only way to ensure that Reapers could do decent damage with Deathly Chill, without causing Well of Darkness and Plague to singlehandedly destroy entire zergs, would be to put an ICD on Chilling Darkness instead. This is unfortunate, of course, as that trait was the only thing that made taking those skills worthwhile in WvW large scale fights, where the necromancer could spread a lot of snaring and disruption. Now, those skills will proc for only a single chill each, making them pretty useless.

It’s now occurred to me that there was another way they could have balanced it. Instead of putting ICDs on either Chilling Darkness or Deathly Chill, they could instead have changed the way Deathly Chill does damage! Instead of doing only a single packet of damage when you apply chill on a target, change it instead to work like Terror and do damage-over-time. So, instead of it doing 200ish damage when you apply chill, make it do, for instance, 75 damage per second. That way, assuming 50% uptime for a GS reaper, it’ll be roughly the same amount.

This way, chill duration matters, and Well of Darkness and Plague no longer turn into massive AOE damage, which also snares you so you can’t get out of it. Chilling Darkness only does 2" chills, and chill has just been changed to cap maximum duration stacking to 5.

Frankly, I don’t think either of those skills would’ve been bad enough to warrant this nerf anyway. After all, they do roughly what the ranger’s Barrage does (snare and aoe damage), but with added blind and MUCH less damage. I don’t see rangers stopping wvw zergs in their tracks personally. But, nonetheless, I don’t know the final numbers, so maybe Reaper would indeed have been overpowered with these skills. I accept that the Reaper’s traits have been balanced with the Reaper’s ability to apply chill in mind, and since they apply chill infrequently but with long durations, it was a bit silly that Core necromancer skills could get more damage out of Deathly Chill than the reaper’s own skills could. But by changing Deathly Chill to do DoT instead of single-packets of damage, duration now matters, and the Reaper’s long 4.5" greatsword chills will no longer do less damage than multiple short-duration Chilling Darkness chills: it’s the same damage, applied per-second like every other damaging condition in the game.

If you agree that this would make sense, please bump this thread till whoever’s handling balance sees this.

A bad necromancer always blames the corpse.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

They said it works like terror. So your initial assumption has no basis.

Also dunno why you named the thread bitter chill. Bitter chill is an entirely different trait which you havent mentioned.

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Posted by: manveruppd.7601

manveruppd.7601

Well spotted, I did mean Deathly Chill, which is what I called it in the actual body of the post! :p I think you’re wrong about it being damage-over-time though, I remember the damage proccing instantly when they were demonstrating it. If it really is dot then the nerf had absolutely no basis, since reapers can keep people perma-chilled anyway!

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

I also was under the impression that Deathly Chill was going to tick damage over time like Terror.

Also, even if each application of Chill ticked for 1000 damage, Plague Form would potentially have done 1000 damage per second to 5 people at a time. With a heal used, and no other regen-dodging taken into consideration, odds are that wouldn’t even kill anyone, let alone wipe an entire zerg.

AND, if Well of Darkness applied 10 seconds of chill (5 ticks of 2 seconds per tick), and each tick hit for 500 damage (throwing a number out there based on ultra-rough mind-math after looking at the two Wiki pages for Terror and Chill and extrapolating based on what I’ve seen Terror get up to with condi damage), you’d end up doing 5000 damage and applying blind once per second for 5 seconds. Would that really be OP? Doesn’t Purging Flames do 5000ish damage over 5 seconds with just a few traits, in addition to removing condis in an AoE and reducing condi duration for allies in the AoE?

Why can’t we have nice things, exactly?

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Posted by: manveruppd.7601

manveruppd.7601

I totally agree Cogbyrn, it wouldn’t have been that bad anyway imho. But clearly someone at ANet disagrees, so maybe the numbers are higher than we think they’ll be. I’m just pointing out that there could be a way to have Deathly Chill do high damage without nerfing Chilling Darkness, simply by spreading the Deathly Chill damage out.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Pretty kittenumption that the Chilling Darkness nerf had anything to do with Reaper, which apparently is what everyone is jumping to. They had mentioned a long time ago that they felt Chilling Darkness was maybe too strong paired with Plague/WoD, doubling it made little sense with that context (though I was hoping they had finally taken their heads out of… well you know). Perfectly possible they felt the Plague/WoD combo was too much, and I could totally see them somehow mentally justifying that lunacy.

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Posted by: Zetsumei.4975

Zetsumei.4975

Pretty kittenumption that the Chilling Darkness nerf had anything to do with Reaper, which apparently is what everyone is jumping to. They had mentioned a long time ago that they felt Chilling Darkness was maybe too strong paired with Plague/WoD, doubling it made little sense with that context (though I was hoping they had finally taken their heads out of… well you know). Perfectly possible they felt the Plague/WoD combo was too much, and I could totally see them somehow mentally justifying that lunacy.

LOL I’m sorry I had to point out what phrase got censored in your post that was too funny when I realized it xD

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

Chilling Nova is instant damage based on power. Deathly chill causes chill to work exactly like terror by at a lower amount of damage. It can clearly be seen that it is a damage over time effect in the part of the video where he is fighting the wurm.

It initially starts going 400 odd damage but you can see the only condition on the wurm is chill and when it’s below 50% it takes 6-700 damage a second just from chill being on it. So unless they changed it to on application, which would be completely stupid, its damage over time.

In fact it’s going to need to change because it loses its synergy with nightfall because of the change and the ways to apply long chills or aoe chills are limited for necro. It does about as much damage as old burning.

(edited by Sigmoid.7082)

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Posted by: manveruppd.7601

manveruppd.7601

It initially starts going 400 odd damage but you can see the only condition on the wurm is chill and when it’s below 50% it takes 6-700 damage a second just from chill being on it. So unless they changed it to on application, which would be completely stupid, its damage over time.

It does look like chill is doing 647dps in that video, but that’s from months ago: they might have changed it by now. If it really is damage per second rather than on-application, I seriously cannot think of any reasonable explanation for the Chilling Darkness nerf!

A bad necromancer always blames the corpse.

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Posted by: Ragion.2831

Ragion.2831

I wish they had left the vulnerablity at 10 stacks, all they needed to do to balance it was switch it with the condition from masters of corruption so it lines up with plague sending. I don’t actually know why blindness in the first place, of all the conditions they choose blindness.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

LOL I’m sorry I had to point out what phrase got censored in your post that was too funny when I realized it xD

I forgot you can’t use that word because god forbid a child see another word for butt

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Posted by: Zetsumei.4975

Zetsumei.4975

LOL I’m sorry I had to point out what phrase got censored in your post that was too funny when I realized it xD

I forgot you can’t use that word because god forbid a child see another word for butt

It was the addition of ‘big’ to that that made me crack up xD

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

It initially starts going 400 odd damage but you can see the only condition on the wurm is chill and when it’s below 50% it takes 6-700 damage a second just from chill being on it. So unless they changed it to on application, which would be completely stupid, its damage over time.

It does look like chill is doing 647dps in that video, but that’s from months ago: they might have changed it by now. If it really is damage per second rather than on-application, I seriously cannot think of any reasonable explanation for the Chilling Darkness nerf!

I already stated unless it has been changed so that part is irrelevant. Because there was potential for a few skill combos to add around 20s of aoe chill over 5s as well as Max vulnerability. Also if they were to add a blast finish into any weapon, with the amount of dark fields we have there would be even more aoe chill.

I can see why it has been changed but again its only to balance for the reaper. They should have to kill something for the base class just so reaper is balance. It’s dhuumfire all over. Bad with life blast but great with reaper shroud #1. It makes this trait useless against groups and in general. They needed to find a different way of balancing it but anet doesn’t seem to be great at that for necro.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Honestly, all they would need is to swap the conditions and it could be decent again. If it were “cause Blind when you inflict Chill”, it could work even with a short ICD. Probably wouldn’t need one, then.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Honestly, all they would need is to swap the conditions and it could be decent again. If it were “cause Blind when you inflict Chill”, it could work even with a short ICD. Probably wouldn’t need one, then.

This would be a cool mechanic too, though it would definitely need at least an ICD per target.

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

I don’t actually know why blindness in the first place, of all the conditions they choose blindness.

They had not enough round midleg objects and just enough brainpower to not make it the only heal in game which would put a damaging condition on yourself.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

The most frequent Chill application we would have then is about 1 Chill/4 seconds, and chill applying abilities do have decently long casts (Spectral Grasp being the shortest, but the chill is delayed 1 second from the time the projectile lands). The Blinds still couldn’t be used to prevent a particular hit.

I don’t think an ICD is needed if it’s chill causes Blind.

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(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

An ICD isnt even needed if its chill on blind. The only possible imbalance was ridiculous chill durations when using plague and WoD. But that was fixed with the 5 cap limit.