Its interesting to see all these posts about how upset people are with the changes to Deathly chill yet I haven’t seen much talk about the changes to chill application over all. On this particular issue I’m sorta in the middle when it comes to this trait on Arena net’s decision. On the one hand I don’t agree with the massive damage nerf that the trait has taken, and I don’t believe that the damage was a real problem with the trait. It wasn’t. However I do agree that the lack of synergy between chillmancers on the same team was a real problem in PvE.
I’ll start with where I agree with Arena net since this point should be made. Chill is the most powerful condition in the game. Chill on its own can determine a match. The fact that it reduces speed and skill recharge allows it to shut down builds without an issue and makes foes a sitting duck. The reaper’s output of chill was absolutely over the top and made fighting one or multiple reapers a serious up hill battle considering that you’d be 1/3rd as effective against them most the time as you otherwise would be. So nerfing the chill duration and the ease at which chill could be applied makes perfect sense. Chill needed to be toned down.
On the other hand we have Deathly chills. The damage on top of the most powerful condition really shined a light on just how good chill really was even to inexperienced players. Although some would say the damage wasn’t that impressive, the damage could be compared to the original Dhuumfire that triggered on critical hit. Although the damage scaling was higher than deathly chill(I think, not too sure about that) the fact that chill is so much easier for the necro to apply and maintain caused a problem on top of the superior control that chill already applied. But the problem that I see isn’t the damage but the duration which I explained above. The game is also much different than it was when Dhuumfire was in its prime.
I’m of the opinion that arena net was right in reducing the chill duration. I feel that that was absolutely the correct move on their part. I also feel that the change to allow you to stack an existing condition rather than fight for a chill spot was a good idea. Where I disagree with arena net is with the damage. Bleed is the weakest condition and also the easiest for the necromancer to apply. Sure it combos well with a few traits, but as it stands the effort to get the bleeds up is potentially not worth the grandmaster spot it holds. Which is why I’d suggest a buff to it in some way. Either making it more bursty through 2 bleeds for half the time or through torment. Which ever. The trait is rather underwhelming.
I’d like to see an update to this trait in the next large patch. Since it was my favorite before hand. But for now I’ll bide my time with it since I still enjoy the chillmancer build.
I can agree with the vast majority of your opinion. Much more thought out and targeted than most of the people’s complaints about chill overall and DC in particular since the update.
I agree too, and I would like the idea of changing DC into another condi, but wouldn’t you have the same problem with stacking? Unless it’s a strong condi I guess.
And what condition would be nice, poison doesn’t really synergize with traits except when using Death Magic. Plus it’s only a little stronger.
Torment could be nice, but it might be too strong. It’s the 2nd strongest condition after burning.
Although the good damage is on moving, same with confusion on skill activation, which is the third strongest. Confusion would be interesting and unique on necro, the only way to apply it now is with ethereal field from spectral wall.
And both torment and confusion don’t really need synergy with traits because otherise it would definitely be too strong. You’d also have a bit more freedom with your build..
Its interesting to see all these posts about how upset people are with the changes to Deathly chill yet I haven’t seen much talk about the changes to chill application over all. On this particular issue I’m sorta in the middle when it comes to this trait on Arena net’s decision. On the one hand I don’t agree with the massive damage nerf that the trait has taken, and I don’t believe that the damage was a real problem with the trait. It wasn’t. However I do agree that the lack of synergy between chillmancers on the same team was a real problem in PvE.
I’ll start with where I agree with Arena net since this point should be made. Chill is the most powerful condition in the game. Chill on its own can determine a match. The fact that it reduces speed and skill recharge allows it to shut down builds without an issue and makes foes a sitting duck. The reaper’s output of chill was absolutely over the top and made fighting one or multiple reapers a serious up hill battle considering that you’d be 1/3rd as effective against them most the time as you otherwise would be. So nerfing the chill duration and the ease at which chill could be applied makes perfect sense. Chill needed to be toned down.
On the other hand we have Deathly chills. The damage on top of the most powerful condition really shined a light on just how good chill really was even to inexperienced players. Although some would say the damage wasn’t that impressive, the damage could be compared to the original Dhuumfire that triggered on critical hit. Although the damage scaling was higher than deathly chill(I think, not too sure about that) the fact that chill is so much easier for the necro to apply and maintain caused a problem on top of the superior control that chill already applied. But the problem that I see isn’t the damage but the duration which I explained above. The game is also much different than it was when Dhuumfire was in its prime.
I’m of the opinion that arena net was right in reducing the chill duration. I feel that that was absolutely the correct move on their part. I also feel that the change to allow you to stack an existing condition rather than fight for a chill spot was a good idea. Where I disagree with arena net is with the damage. Bleed is the weakest condition and also the easiest for the necromancer to apply. Sure it combos well with a few traits, but as it stands the effort to get the bleeds up is potentially not worth the grandmaster spot it holds. Which is why I’d suggest a buff to it in some way. Either making it more bursty through 2 bleeds for half the time or through torment. Which ever. The trait is rather underwhelming.
I’d like to see an update to this trait in the next large patch. Since it was my favorite before hand. But for now I’ll bide my time with it since I still enjoy the chillmancer build.
Mostly agree, however now you need to have 4-5 condi reapers using Deathly chill to surpass the damage of the former deathly chill, and in what (organized) PvE content do you actually see 4 condi-reapers? X)
Now if it was 1 stack of burn, or 3-4 stacks of bleed (I don’t think 2 would cut it, the damage difference is still way too much)… Yeah, that’d be perfect. 1 Stack of bleed is too little though. But I’m sure they’ll fix it…within the next 4 months X)
But yeah, the chill duration nerf is perfectly fine imho.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
Hmm, Deathly Chill now looks quite useless now, although the update freed it from being chilled to deal damage, to apply bleeding on chill apply.
As it is, it seems quite weak, only on application of chill. Perhaps change it to apply the said bleeding at x second intervals, while target is under effect of chill. But I dunno what would be the best way to make it more interesting trait now.
Make it apply poison too and/or vulnerability?
I’m a casual PvE adventurer, I enjoy combat, adventure and helping, but not farming.
I rarely do PvP or Hard PvE, unless it’s organized.
[…]
Make it apply poison too and/or vulnerability?
There is a trait that grants vulnerability on chill -> bitter chill
And anet stated that they don’t want it to apply poison since it is intended to be damaging only, they don’t want it to reduce enemy’s healing with it too. I guess that is the reason why they went for bleed instead of torment too. Torment would be some kind of soft cc too, since it would force the enemy to move as less as possible to not take extra damage.
Since reaper has many ways to apply chill, I don’t think it is a big problem it is granting bleed on chilling foes. And since the necromancers main source of condi damage is bleeding, maxing it’s duration is maxing deathly chills damage too, which is nice. And there are some people who seem to make it work. Maybe wait a bit before judging it.
[…]
Make it apply poison too and/or vulnerability?
There is a trait that grants vulnerability on chill -> bitter chill
And anet stated that they don’t want it to apply poison since it is intended to be damaging only, they don’t want it to reduce enemy’s healing with it too. I guess that is the reason why they went for bleed instead of torment too. Torment would be some kind of soft cc too, since it would force the enemy to move as less as possible to not take extra damage.
Since reaper has many ways to apply chill, I don’t think it is a big problem it is granting bleed on chilling foes. And since the necromancers main source of condi damage is bleeding, maxing it’s duration is maxing deathly chills damage too, which is nice. And there are some people who seem to make it work. Maybe wait a bit before judging it.
Yea, I was abit off with the thought of it inflicting poison or torment.
But inflicting bleeding is clearly more efficient with Scepter+Dagger.
While Reaper’s Onslaught offers attack speed improvement and cooldown reduction on kills, then combine that trait with Unyielding Blast and Dhuumfire.
But I might be very off with this possible example, since it’s geared towards maximum DoT, with room for some utility.
Still a grandmaster trait that only inflicts 1 stack of bleeding is not quite what I would call Grandmaster trait, when Adept traits like Bitter Chill and Chilling Darkness exist.
I’m a casual PvE adventurer, I enjoy combat, adventure and helping, but not farming.
I rarely do PvP or Hard PvE, unless it’s organized.
And anet stated that they don’t want it to apply poison since it is intended to be damaging only, they don’t want it to reduce enemy’s healing with it too. I guess that is the reason why they went for bleed instead of torment too. Torment would be some kind of soft cc too, since it would force the enemy to move as less as possible to not take extra damage.
That’s why torment whould be the perfect condition, because someone moving with chill + torment deserves to die.
The big problem with DC now is that we are forced to play curse for a better trait’s synergie (bleed duration etc) before patch we could play curse for more condi pressure or spite more physical damage pressure.
That’s why torment whould [sic] be the perfect condition, because someone moving with chill + torment deserves to die.
The big problem with DC now is that we are forced to play curse for a better trait’s synergie (bleed duration etc) before patch we could play curse for more condi pressure or spite more physical damage pressure.
The damage in reapers shroud is really strong. The only left counterplay against it (like many people told you in this forum) is kiting the reaper when he is in reapers shroud. Now you want reaper to throw a condition, that has doubled damage if you are moving, like candy?
Kiting and running away from reaper is meant as the counter for reapers. Anet want you to stay away from them. You can’t punish running away from reapers because of that.
The damage in reapers shroud is really strong. The only left counterplay against it (like many people told you in this forum) is kiting the reaper when he is in reapers shroud. Now you want reaper to throw a condition, that has doubled damage if you are moving, like candy?
Kiting and running away from reaper is meant as the counter for reapers. Anet want you to stay away from them. You can’t punish running away from reapers because of that.
Giving torment to counter high mobility to the class with the less mobility and the easiest to CC is clearly the best choice there.
Change Deathly Chill to work like the Weakening Shroud grandmaster:
Deathly Chill
12s cooldown*
Cast frost aura when you apply chill. Chill inflicts bleeding.
3 Bleeding (3s): 198 Damage
Frost Aura (2s): Chill foes that strike you (only once per second for each attacker); incoming damage is reduced by 10%.
*The cooldown only applies to the Frost Aura application.
Chill fills again our need for a burst damage option while still being not too much damage or hard to cleanse.
We gain back our lost chill duration when we get hit under Frost Aura. I think it’s fair because it comes with a price: getting hit and and relying on the foe to hit us.
Every 12 seconds you can stack up to 9 stacks of bleeding in 2 seconds thanks to Frost Aura’s chill on hit. That’s why I kept the bleeding duration very short.
Frost aura’s chill on hit translates in AoE bleeding. After Deathly Chill nerf we lack pressure in teamfights.
Frost aura + Cold Shoulder = 20% damage reduction. It’s a perfect tool to relieve focus fire, give time to escape or LoS the enemy to heal. It may even allow us to drop Rise! for some other utility.
IMO this is the perfect solution. It promotes a more skilled use of our chill. Chills becomes a tool that can be used to counter a early burst, give us a chance to peel off and heal when under focus fire, or to quickly build up our pressure after the inevitable cleanse. With this trait you want to stagger your chill application and keep track of the timing to save the frost aura for when you need it. You can do some skilled counter play if you time it right and leaves room for counter play since enemeys can choose to not attack you while unde Frost aura.
PvE can afford more bleed duration and chill sources, like chill on blind. Coupled with fear we may see a comeback of Terror and the inclusions of fear related skills in PvE condi DPS rotations. There is the potential to cut down the ramp-up time enough to make PvE condi necros relevant outside of raids.
That’s why torment whould [sic] be the perfect condition, because someone moving with chill + torment deserves to die.
The big problem with DC now is that we are forced to play curse for a better trait’s synergie (bleed duration etc) before patch we could play curse for more condi pressure or spite more physical damage pressure.
The damage in reapers shroud is really strong. The only left counterplay against it (like many people told you in this forum) is kiting the reaper when he is in reapers shroud. Now you want reaper to throw a condition, that has doubled damage if you are moving, like candy?
Kiting and running away from reaper is meant as the counter for reapers. Anet want you to stay away from them. You can’t punish running away from reapers because of that.
Thats backward logic. You can make that argument for any class that can put out high dps and a lot of those builds have cc to keep you in place. With stability being nerfed for reapers and this change how do we stay on any target for long?
Thats backward logic. You can make that argument for any class that can put out high dps and a lot of those builds have cc to keep you in place. With stability being nerfed for reapers and this change how do we stay on any target for long?
Reapers have cc to keep the enemy in place too
Chilled To The Bone
Executioners Scythe
Terrify
Grasping Darkness
All core cc’s (like Reaper’s Mark)
Also that is exactly what the chill of reapers is for: keeping the enemy in place to unload the damage. When chill applies torment with the new trait, you don’t just make it harder for the enemy to get away from you (like it is supposed to be with chill) but are punishing the enemy for running away too. Anet didn’t want it that way, they want you to run away from reapers. But reapers will try to “catch” you with their cc and chill.
Just add “bleeds do 33% more dmg” similar to thieves’ poison trait. Then bleed would actually hurt a bit with smaller stacks and we’d have crazy synergy with scepter/dagger.
It’s funny; People are trying to judge this trait based upon their old builds, gear, and rotations. This trait is far more reaching than limiting yourself to old Scepter/Dagger + Warhorn for Condi. Has anyone considered that Greatsword does chill on it’s autoattack, 4 (if traited), and 5. Reaper Shroud 5 then a RS4 inside a boss is about 8 stacks of bleed on paper . Also you can run Might/Chill (in nighttime scenarios) food to proc the trait also.
It’s funny; People are trying to judge this trait based upon their old builds, gear, and rotations. This trait is far more reaching than limiting yourself to old Scepter/Dagger + Warhorn for Condi. Has anyone considered that Greatsword does chill on it’s autoattack, 4 (if traited), and 5. Reaper Shroud 5 then a RS4 inside a boss is about 8 stacks of bleed on paper . Also you can run Might/Chill (in nighttime scenarios) food to proc the trait also.
This is a huge buff to condi reaper as it stands.
I think people who are happy about the changes are mostly PvE players that raid and such. Where as for people that PvP or WvW, these changes are crap, and bleed is very unreliable as a condi because it requires long ramp up time.
Chill damage gave us spike condi ticks. Bleed is just meh, I’ve tried it extensively, it only really works on braindead players, target dummies, and PvE mobs. I’m willing to give 2 stacks of bleed a try if we can somehow convince the devs that their balance swings went too far (again).
Along with the RS 3 nerf which was huge, necros aren’t in such a good spot outside of PvE right now. As for Greatsword…yeah that’s how I know you’re a PvE player
I think most expected a chill duration nerf and a slight damage nerf. But chill duration nerf, zero out chill damage completely, and at the same time strip our stab uptime? Bad balance decisions are just bad.
After a week of playing with the new DC, I can say thats its not better in PvE in general. Its only better when you are solo and only when you use the combination of RS5+RS4 (no other players to cover your RS5 Ice field). This is the only situation when you can stack good enough amount of chill. Unless you specifically make build with a lot of chill skills and spend all your CDs just to stack it, which is ofc pointless.
In raids you never can do the RS4+RS5 combo, because there are so many other AoE fields, that yours is always on top of another one, so in the end DC is a lot less useful then before.
I will not add any suggestions, because its pointless.
