Combo Fields & Finishers?
So this thread is back. Anyone care to make my argument for me? I’m sure you know it all by now.
Because thats how necros are set up, if you wanna ask about fields and finishers ask why we dont have ice fields or leap finishers instead of requesting skills to be turned into a finisher (also horn 5 would be bloody op as a blast finisher since its a ticking spell).
We err, can drop quite a few, quite often with support type builds. (Staff+Wells)
I think were massively missing finishers.
Were all hoping that next big patch, tweeks up minions to work in dungeons. There suppose to be our finisher’s, currently tho, there dead when it hits the fan.
But yeh, we’d love to see either main or off hands have some finishers.
Part of the necro theme is to have no synergy between skills so finishers is a no go.
But if you wanna use necro combofields i suggest underwater since anet at some point must have been high on something with the combofield + finisher in oneskill, and this is from weaponskill.
The arguement that bhawb is talking about is that most classes have either fields or finishers on utilities or weapons. Not all everywhere. The problem is necro seems to be the only class that misses out on so many things in this game that other classes have no issue with. Our blast finishers either require an enemy or are on minions which is incredibly annoying for pre-stacking might. We also lack defense options other than facetanking in DS and our base endurance. I still dont understand why the devs wont give us vigor. I can understand not giving us blocks, invulns and w/e but vigor doesnt take away from our design at all. Really is frustrating being the only class that requires 2 energy sigils and endurance food to solo melee lupi.
+1 to spoj for summing it up.
Essentially, we have tons of combo fields, our utility bar is litered with them. The problem is all our finishers (which would then be on the utility bar, I would assume for balance purposes) are all stuck on minions, which make them fairly unreliable as actual sources of finishers for your benefit, except with certain “work arounds”. Another problem is that, due to our class design, all our fields tend to be slightly less desired (although stronger in some ways, imo) than buffing fields.
Yeh, if they let people finish there own combo’s, ya’d get silly things like thiefs that could just invis anytime they wanted. ;-P
Spoj > I think for once, were 100% totally in agreement! Kinda scary, I kinda like disagreeing with you because of diversity in problem solving.
Not sure everyone is aware but, Putrid Mark doesn’t need an enemy trigger anymore. Try it.
I know it probably has to do with lore but I still wish well of blood could be a water field…
At this point, I feel this is still a holdover from before combo fields and finishers were even in the game, because the Necromancer was actually very close to being finished in late 2009 to the 2010 range.
They have a lot of tools that are just hold overs from that time period that have been gutted or simply taken off the effectivity field since then. No one had even heard of combo fields and finishers until pretty late in the games’ development (At least, if you’d been following it since the first announcement) so it stands to reason that the Necromancer, designed and very nearly finished before these were the in thing around the development team, lacks those sorts of tools.
Since our first initial gut in the betas, we’ve gotten pretty scatter-shot buffs here and there, as well as some much needed band-aids. But are probably due for a redesign on a lot of aspects of this profession. Which ones those are I’ll let the developers decide, but it needs some love in ways other professions don’t. In the past the Necromancer has proven very difficult to balance, so just up and making our skills do more is out of the question. Fundamentals need to change or we’re never going to get anything of substance.
You can imagine how difficult that is when even the best of buffs will have a vocal minority screaming like chickens with their heads cut off that this is clearly the herald of the end times for GW2.
Not sure everyone is aware but, Putrid Mark doesn’t need an enemy trigger anymore. Try it.
Wrong, it does require an enemy. Thats a display bug. It shows the “area whatever” when you place in a field but doesnt actually give the effect. It does it again when theres an enemy and works properly in that case.
(edited by spoj.9672)
Whirl finisher on axe #2
blast on #3
anet pls
Not sure everyone is aware but, Putrid Mark doesn’t need an enemy trigger anymore. Try it.
Wrong, it does require an enemy. Thats a display bug. It shows the “area whatever” when you place in a field but doesnt actually give the effect. It does it again when theres an enemy and works properly in that case.
Actually it’s not a display bug… sort of..
For those who don’t know: Putrid Mark has a double finisher. One for placing the mark on a combo field and the second when it is triggered.
Here’s the tricky part:
The second finisher only triggers if the combo field is still there.
However, for the placement-finisher it’s different: if the “display bug” icon shows up without actually triggering the combo, then that is an indicator for the player that the mark is “charged” with a combo for the entire 30 seconds before the mark disappears.
So even if there is no combo field left, it “remembers” that there once was and combo on enemies if they walk on it much later.
If you see an icon again if the mark is triggered then it’s because of the second finisher with a different combo field.
Not sure everyone is aware but, Putrid Mark doesn’t need an enemy trigger anymore. Try it.
Wrong, it does require an enemy. Thats a display bug. It shows the “area whatever” when you place in a field but doesnt actually give the effect. It does it again when theres an enemy and works properly in that case.
Actually it’s not a display bug… sort of..
For those who don’t know: Putrid Mark has a double finisher. One for placing the mark on a combo field and the second when it is triggered.
Here’s the tricky part:
The second finisher only triggers if the combo field is still there.
However, for the placement-finisher it’s different: if the “display bug” icon shows up without actually triggering the combo, then that is an indicator for the player that the mark is “charged” with a combo for the entire 30 seconds before the mark disappears.
So even if there is no combo field left, it “remembers” that there once was and combo on enemies if they walk on it much later.
If you see an icon again if the mark is triggered then it’s because of the second finisher with a different combo field.
Same thing with our Trident 5 (so a 3→5 combo if timed and positioned correctly can apply twice the weakness than the normal poison field would; also since 3 is a leap starting in a enemy into a wall is like 34 or so seconds of weakness with my setup at least).
The arguement that bhawb is talking about is that most classes have either fields or finishers on utilities or weapons. Not all everywhere. The problem is necro seems to be the only class that misses out on so many things in this game that other classes have no issue with. Our blast finishers either require an enemy or are on minions which is incredibly annoying for pre-stacking might.
Not really, it isnt split like you describe it. The other classes have most of their combo stuff on their weapons, while Necro is the ONLY ONE who has most of it on its utility skills, which, apparently, just doesnt work out well and needs fixing imo.
(also horn 5 would be bloody op as a blast finisher since its a ticking spell)
Oh yeah, because its impossible to let the blast trigger only ONCE when you activate the skill, right?
Staff is fine, i think, so the other weapons should get some:
Focus#4: Behaves like a projectile, can be reflected like a projectile, so it should be a finisher.
Dagger#4: same as focus#4, it’s a projectile, therefore projectile finisher.
Dagger#5: Blast MAY fit. Or whirl? Putting Blast finishers on everything is too much and this is one of the few necro-skills where something else than blast or projectile actually fits.
Warhorn: Like ranger’s and warrior’s skills, one of these could be turned into a blast finisher.
Life blast: just like Focus#4 and Dagger#4, this skill has all the disadvantages a projectile has, so it should also have its one benefit: being a finisher.
The lack of finishers doesnt even annoy me that much. More the lack of consistency when it comes to skills that sometimes count as projectiles and sometimes not.
Whirl finisher on axe #2
blast on #3
anet pls
both fits, but Axe#2 is good enough already. It’s the other two axe skills that need some love.
Gunnar’s Hold
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(also horn 5 would be bloody op as a blast finisher since its a ticking spell)
Oh yeah, because its impossible to let the blast trigger only ONCE when you activate the skill, right?
Life blast: just like Focus#4 and Dagger#4, this skill has all the disadvantages a projectile has, so it should also have its one benefit: being a finisher.
The lack of finishers doesnt even annoy me that much. More the lack of consistency when it comes to skills that sometimes count as projectiles and sometimes not.
A) actually yes, our dear devs are kinda too inept to fix existing problems with the skill combo field interactions (like how engie rifle used to work and still does sometimes when the leap is interrupted or how most leaps; the prominent one being ranger swoop, proc the same field twice if they are in it in the transitional phase between movement and jump effect).
B) LB was a blast finisher UW for quite a while because yay bugs (not sure if it still is).
Actually it’s not a display bug… sort of..
For those who don’t know: Putrid Mark has a double finisher. One for placing the mark on a combo field and the second when it is triggered.
Here’s the tricky part:
The second finisher only triggers if the combo field is still there.
However, for the placement-finisher it’s different: if the “display bug” icon shows up without actually triggering the combo, then that is an indicator for the player that the mark is “charged” with a combo for the entire 30 seconds before the mark disappears.
So even if there is no combo field left, it “remembers” that there once was and combo on enemies if they walk on it much later.
If you see an icon again if the mark is triggered then it’s because of the second finisher with a different combo field.
Did not know that. I saw on the wiki it says it triggers twice but i assumed that was wrong because the first trigger never created an effect. Thanks for explaining. Someone should probably fix the wiki. Anyway not being able to blast out of combat is a massive pain in the kitten .
I was thinking Whirl on axe #2 aswell, but It’s been a while since I’ve used axe and can’t remember exactly how long the attack lasts for.
I really loved leveling up my Necro and it’s not until 80 I realised how much I miss combo fields and finishers.
Not really, it isnt split like you describe it. The other classes have most of their combo stuff on their weapons, while Necro is the ONLY ONE who has most of it on its utility skills, which, apparently, just doesnt work out well and needs fixing imo.
Engineer get a majority of their combo stuff off utility skills.
It made the most sense for us to get them off of utility skills, because of our wells and assorted other fields that we got from utility skills, and frankly our weapon skills make very little sense to have combo fields and finishers on.
I understand Bhawb’s explanation. To have our combo in utility. But along with vigor & varies defensive boons since necro is attrition class, I think Anet is too stubborn on the subjects.
If it works, no one would care/complain, but clearly it just doesn’t work as intended on necro. Put most of the fields in one build (wells), and put most of the finisher in another (MM). And a blast finisher that won’t work without an enemy.
When something doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. No matter what the reason is, it has to be fixed. Either wackamole, put some finisher on weapon, or figure out how to fix the source. Leaving the problem here forever doesn’t mean it’s solved.
Frankly, I wouldn’t mind if MM was the main source of our finishers if they made the blast finishers more reliable as finishers somehow. People seem to think that you can only take minions for MM builds. That isn’t the case for any other type of utility, I don’t see why it is for minions.
Just make their finishers more reliable, and maybe people will finally get off the silly idea that minions are this mystical separated entity from the rest of our skills.
Wrong word choice:
Put most of the fields in one type of skills (wells), and put most of the finisher in another (MM).
Better? Thing is, it is pretty easy to not have a single combo skill on utility as a necro. But for those classes with combo on weapon, you are pretty much guarantee to have at least 2 combo skills regardless of builds.
I think it might be prudent to give us 1 finisher or so per weapon set. Although its obvious that it wasn’t how ANet planned things, I think its obvious that finishers are just so necessary that we really need them, even if its very limited because of our field amount.
Because while I “get” the idea of all on utility, you only get 3 utility skills plus one heal (and I don’t think any heal is anything but a field), so that is very, very little actual chance for finishers.
We need blast finishers for condi necro as well. (staff/scepter-dagger)
Staff #4 is a blast finisher but requires to be triggered. We need at least one without trigger requirement. For example it can be scepter #2.
I always that Enfeebling Blood would make a good blast finisher but the question would be if it was a issue with the trait that drops it on DS.
Zikory – Retired Thief
Zikkro – Zergling Necromancer
It makes the most sense in a way, but if anything they could just make it not apply the blast finisher.
Then again traited you could still only have 1 blast every 6 seconds at the cost of your DS CD. And looking at other classes its not that great but on the other hand we do have a lot of fields to combo off of so it could be quite strong.
Zikory – Retired Thief
Zikkro – Zergling Necromancer
It’d be 15 seconds, its got an ICD
Id be fine with it on any weapon. Because then i can swap to it blast for might and then swap back (already do this with warrior longbow). Offhand dagger would fit quite well especially with weakening shroud for an extra blast. Axe 3 would also be a good choice.
Doesn’t help that people rage whenever we place our useless dark fields, either.
Dark fields are not useless at all. As a combo field it is only subpar in coordinated WvW zerging if you are using them on your own zerg, because you will be messing up the buff rotations your zerg is doing. But that is a single well that isn’t really that great for WvW anyway because it is condi removal, where your zerg should be spamming that out anyway.
Other than that, dark fields are really strong. Yes some people are stupid and complain, but they are stupid. There is no situation where spammed blinds and a healing/damage buff isn’t good.
I still want 1-3 ice fields…
I’d like ice fields, simply because I could apply so much Frost Armor to my minions…
Dark fields are not useless at all. As a combo field it is only subpar in coordinated WvW zerging if you are using them on your own zerg, because you will be messing up the buff rotations your zerg is doing. But that is a single well that isn’t really that great for WvW anyway because it is condi removal, where your zerg should be spamming that out anyway.
Other than that, dark fields are really strong. Yes some people are stupid and complain, but they are stupid. There is no situation where spammed blinds and a healing/damage buff isn’t good.
when im on my ele (in dungeons) i hate wells almost as much as i hate hammer guards (not that i can blame them… it just sucks that anet hasnt given combo priorities… (if an ele has persisting flames they chould always prioritise fire fields)
I still want 1-3 ice fields…
would love (and unholy feast to be a blast finisher)
80 warr [Blaze Steelsoul], 80 ele [Blaze Nightstrike], 80 mesmer [Grim Shatterwhirl]
80 guard [Dusk Grimlight], 80 engi [Flintgear]
Frankly, I wouldn’t mind if MM was the main source of our finishers if they made the blast finishers more reliable as finishers somehow. People seem to think that you can only take minions for MM builds. That isn’t the case for any other type of utility, I don’t see why it is for minions.
Just make their finishers more reliable, and maybe people will finally get off the silly idea that minions are this mystical separated entity from the rest of our skills.
THANK YOU. I been saying that for months now.
~Surrender fiend and you will get an easy death
~I could promise you the same…but it would be a lie…
Then again traited you could still only have 1 blast every 6 seconds at the cost of your DS CD. And looking at other classes its not that great but on the other hand we do have a lot of fields to combo off of so it could be quite strong.
EB doesn’t even work everytime you enter DS, it has like 20 sec CD or something anyways.
Dark fields are not useless at all. As a combo field it is only subpar in coordinated WvW zerging if you are using them on your own zerg, because you will be messing up the buff rotations your zerg is doing. But that is a single well that isn’t really that great for WvW anyway because it is condi removal, where your zerg should be spamming that out anyway.
Other than that, dark fields are really strong. Yes some people are stupid and complain, but they are stupid. There is no situation where spammed blinds and a healing/damage buff isn’t good.
when im on my ele (in dungeons) i hate wells almost as much as i hate hammer guards (not that i can blame them… it just sucks that anet hasnt given combo priorities… (if an ele has persisting flames they chould always prioritise fire fields)
I still want 1-3 ice fields…
would love (and unholy feast to be a blast finisher)
+1 to combo field priorities. Worst offender: Dredge fractal. I have an ele in my fractal team, and even with TS and constant communication it’s hard not to step on each others toes when you’re fighting endless waves of dredge mobs in close quarters at lvl 48. It wouldn’t be so bad I’d dredge weren’t immune to blind, but yea…. having all his blast finishers proc off my wells instead of his fire fields is just downright annoying. In the Volcanic fractal its great and we do it intentionally, but there’s not much room to maneuver when you’re stacking dredge in a corner.
And I agree, we need more finishers on weapon skills. The biggest annoyance is warriors and rangers having a blast finisher on warhorn but we don’t. And the simple solution to the channel/repeat blast finisher issue is to have the blast finisher on wail of doom instead of locust swam. Same skill CD and its not a channel.
Then again traited you could still only have 1 blast every 6 seconds at the cost of your DS CD. And looking at other classes its not that great but on the other hand we do have a lot of fields to combo off of so it could be quite strong.
EB doesn’t even work everytime you enter DS, it has like 20 sec CD or something anyways.
Yup, Bhawb already corrected me.
It’d be 15 seconds, its got an ICD
Zikory – Retired Thief
Zikkro – Zergling Necromancer