Guild Wars 2

In general, I don’t like comparing specific skills of different classes. But I’m learning about necro coming from a Mesmer background, and I’m trying to compare similar strategies. This is a very rough comparison.

Mesmers can play a strategy of summoning phantasms and also attacking directly. The build I use has the berserker and the duelist. Both of these attack around once every 6 seconds (without the trait that accelerates them). The attacks are often around 3000 damage (with lots of might stacks, I see them get up to the 4000 – 5000 range on guards in WvW). So that’s about 500dps (ignoring the bleed stacks they can add based on traiting).

I did some quick calculations on a possible necro build (using build editor info and only having the Vampiric Master trait) and came up with this:
Blood Fiend = (239 + 58) / 3 = 99
Bone Minion = 2 x ((159+58) / 3.57) = 121
Bone Fiend = 2 x ((286+58) / 3.055) = 225
Shadow Fiend = (350 + 58) / 1.64 = 249
Flesh Golem = (578 + 58) / 1.2 = 530

So three phantasm is about 1500 dps and five minions is about 1200 dps.

Questions:
– Are my minion dps calculations close to what actually happens in the real world?
– Anyone who plays both classes have a sense of how necro weapon skills compare with Mesmer weapon skills in terms of damage in the real world?

Mostly I’m trying to understand if theoretically there’s a somewhat comparable playstyle between Mesmer phantasm and necro minion as it would make it a lot easier for me to teach my son about how to think about playing his necro. I have 1500 hours of playing Mesmer phantasm builds… lol

First off, what game mode are we talking about? This is extremely important because the best tPvP minion build is awful for PvE, and vice versa.

Q1: In PvE its okay, although minions (especially melee) will die, Flesh Golem will discover the joys of flower arrangement and peaceful protesting, and you probably wouldn’t use that exact build which would change DPS a bit. For the best “real” DPS in PvE you’d want to sub out Shadow Fiend for Flesh Wurm (will increase damage when you consider uptimes and projectile finishers), also note that Bone Minions have higher DPS when you just summon them then blow them up immediately, plus that gives you blast finishers for groups.

In PvP minions are going to have a fair bit worse DPS because they will be kited and killed more often, and its hard to say because your build can really change their effective DPS depending on how much you heal them.

Q2: depends more on gear, traits, and team comp, so I can’t really answer this until I know what game mode we’re dealing with.

The playstyles can be similar in PvE, but in WvW and PvP they are vastly different. Phantasm is almost always a DPS oriented playstyle with stealth/damage avoidance to stay alive, and you basically just summon phantasms and let them do their thing, there is no real microing of them after summoning. Minions require the use of their actives, making sure they aren’t kited, keeping them alive with various skills/build setups, and are almost always tanky builds. PvE is really only different because you just summon the minions and then do normal DPS rotations while both of you are in full zerker, and the minion actives are just used for higher DPS.

You cannot compare minion damage to Mesmer Phantasms. Most of the damage from Mesmers is from their Phantasms. And right now, the Mesmer profession is in a horrible state.

He’s not really trying to compare them to prove a point or anything he mains a mesmer I’m sure he’s well aware what’s going on with mesmers I believe he is looking for a necro mm pov

Thx folks. I’ll work on getting my question better defined at the start

I’m talking about WvW. And, NeXeD you have my question exactly correct. I’m trying to understand if a minion necro can be played in some way like a phantasm Mesmer. Even though Mesmer is overall in not a great place, I have a ton of fun roaming in WvW with a phantasm build. So I’m wondering if minions can end up being like that since I could teach my son pretty easily.

While phantasms themselves are pretty passive, my overall play style is pretty active. This is a very short example video of how might stacking works in Mesmer phantasm builds, but it gives a good idea of what the playstyle can be like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBStdjXeeYI

I’m basically wondering if minion necro can play somewhat like that in WvW

Very interesting, not what I had assumed it was going to be.

So, the answer is kinda. The difference I’m seeing is that you don’t actually have to interact too much with the phantasms. I could be wrong here and please correct me if I am, but you essentially have two play mechanics that your build works around (besides just staying alive obv), you stack might using various sources, and you summon phantasms, which are mostly fire and forget. The active play comes around you staying alive in what appears to be full glass gear/build, making sure you are using your phantasm skills appropriately, and also stacking might.

Comparatively, a minion build has similar but different ideas. You won’t really be stacking might in a minion build, nor will you be using glass gear (unless you are really manly and don’t plan to encounter other players), because minions have fixed stats no matter what you use. Instead, you trait the minions such that they have the best stats they can, and then your job is keeping them alive and on their target while you are essentially a bunker. Imagine them as your melee DPS teammates and you are their support/bunker, they do the DPS, and you set up their kills and keep them alive. So the play revolves around using a lot of control and debuffing skills to maximize the minions’ damage and survivability, and also using various sources of healing.

So if he plays MM he’s going to be playing more like a support build that summons its own party to support, instead of quite like your build which plays more like a DPS build. There are similarities in that you are both using AI and abilities to support that AI, but he’ll be using a tanky/support build to do that whereas you have a DPS build.

Generally speaking he’ll probably want to run Clerics gear with leeching/renewal sigils, Axe/Focus Dagger/Warhorn, water or dwayna runes, and a 4/0/6/4/0 build, unless he is planning to always play solo in which case he could probably go more selfish damage wise.

Tl;DR it is an overall somewhat similar playstyle in that the AI half is comparable, and some of the mechanics of the rest of the build are similar (using CC to support the AI), but he is going to be using a tanky/support base to his build instead of DPS like you.

One crucial difference is that the minions are much, much more sturdy than illusions. The Flesh Golem and Blood Fiend can tank even Champions for a decent amount of time, for example. Illusions just shatter the moment a Champion even breathes on them. The number of minions we have out can also help soak up AoE damage targets, something the Mesmer’s 3 illusion limit is hard-pressed to do.

In short, Mesmer illusions are more designed for bursts; they are summoned, they attack/shatter, and are gone/killed. Minions are more designed for attrition. They’re more difficult to kill, and like a Necromancer, wear down your opponent.

Bhawb.7408:

Very interesting, not what I had assumed it was going to be.

So, the answer is kinda. The difference I’m seeing is that you don’t actually have to interact too much with the phantasms. I could be wrong here and please correct me if I am, but you essentially have two play mechanics that your build works around (besides just staying alive obv), you stack might using various sources, and you summon phantasms, which are mostly fire and forget. The active play comes around you staying alive in what appears to be full glass gear/build, making sure you are using your phantasm skills appropriately, and also stacking might.

Comparatively, a minion build has similar but different ideas. You won’t really be stacking might in a minion build, nor will you be using glass gear (unless you are really manly and don’t plan to encounter other players), because minions have fixed stats no matter what you use. Instead, you trait the minions such that they have the best stats they can, and then your job is keeping them alive and on their target while you are essentially a bunker. Imagine them as your melee DPS teammates and you are their support/bunker, they do the DPS, and you set up their kills and keep them alive. So the play revolves around using a lot of control and debuffing skills to maximize the minions’ damage and survivability, and also using various sources of healing.

So if he plays MM he’s going to be playing more like a support build that summons its own party to support, instead of quite like your build which plays more like a DPS build. There are similarities in that you are both using AI and abilities to support that AI, but he’ll be using a tanky/support build to do that whereas you have a DPS build.

Generally speaking he’ll probably want to run Clerics gear with leeching/renewal sigils, Axe/Focus Dagger/Warhorn, water or dwayna runes, and a 4/0/6/4/0 build, unless he is planning to always play solo in which case he could probably go more selfish damage wise.

Tl;DR it is an overall somewhat similar playstyle in that the AI half is comparable, and some of the mechanics of the rest of the build are similar (using CC to support the AI), but he is going to be using a tanky/support base to his build instead of DPS like you.

Phantasm mesmers have really poor ways to stack might outside of using battle sigils/strenghth runes, and they could get a little from GS 2 in melee range, but most phantasm builds use two mainhands so they can take iswordsman and iduelist. Shatter mesmers can maintain a good amount of might from shattering with the illusions GM minor. Other than that your analysis is fine.

The playstyle is very different as you say due to the difference between needing to go full offense as a phant mesmer or more support/tanky with MM necro. Phantasms are also prone to many weaknesses such as their fraility, the ease of which someone can kite/LOS their attacks and whatnot, and their inability to do more than 1v1 if even then.

There was a video brought up on the mesmer forums that pits the so called OP 1v1 mesmer phantasm build against a typical warrior in WvW, and the results are hilariously kitten y to say the least. I’ll see if I can dig up that link.

Pure phantasm build with str runes, sigil of battle and sigil of strength maintains a lot of might. I dont see the point in comparing minions with phantasms. Phantasms scale of mesmers base stats and are effected by boons such as might and fury. Minions do not scale in the slightest and there are no traits to grant minions boons..

Heres the video I mentioned.

And yeah, runes/sigils are the only way that mesmer build can maintain might on its own.

Thx – it’s really helpful to get the necro perspective. The build I was using in the video is actually pretty tanky for a Mesmer. Most of the armor is Sentinels. I play a slightly different build now, but the build in the video is like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhQQNAR7ansISZa2oGGqB3aGJ1IMd66LJHCK5XIA-T1iFABDcBAgb/hkUSpo6DRqCDAHBAjUmckSBGeIAnpbAQlgBAQAYlPX4CX46sQAmXAA-w

Since I only play WvW, I don’t have any idea of how things work out in PvP. From a WvW perspective, it feels like it would be hard to just bunker and support the minions. It feels like it would kill too slowly – especially when roaming, I think you need to get done with a fight quickly because more enemies will come if you take too long. I looked at the video again, and the phantasms are doing 3000 – 4000 base and between 5000 and 6000 when I get up to 20+ might stacks. When you add in the bleeds (about 1800 over six seconds typically for a duelist), you get closer to 1000 dps per phantasm than the 500 I was using. So it feels like a minion necro would need to contribute more damage personally if you wanted to get up to the same level of damage output.

There are lots of differences here in that phantasms have very low health (2000 hp or so), they die as soon as their target dies (so you want to shatter them just before that if possible), and mesmers generally have much worse AoE than what I see in necro skills.

In the end, it feels like I shouldn’t go in with the mindset of teaching my son to play minions the way I play phantasms. Thx much for the feedback!

@spoj you’re hitting on the point I was basically trying to understand – phantasms can get up to be very high dps (both burst and sustained). The weakness is that they die if they get hit by basically anything. In that playstyle, my job is to keep myself alive (through stealth, dodges, blocks) and contribute to damage by stacking might (with sigils, but also the Bountiful Interruption trait and the Greatsword skill) and doing direct damage. By increasing the damage a lot, it doesn’t matter as much that phantasms die easily.

I was wondering if minion necro could do the same thing but swap out using Death Shroud as the defense mechanism and adding more direct damage from the necro (or that maybe the total minion damage would balance out with phantasms).

It just feels like a minion build won’t ramp up on dps as quickly, so it feels like it will take longer to take things out in WvW

Thx for all the insight!

You’re not gonna be getting that DPS from a Flesh Golem when he’s standing around refusing to attack. It happens a lot.

Minions account for a very small percentage of your overall damage and theres no way to boost them. Most of your damage comes from personal dps. Which means minions should be treated more as meatshields than dps machines. They are the opposite of phantasms.

Also phantasms are a core feature of mesmers. Whereas minions are nothing more than a type of utility skill. So you are essentially comparing niche semi useful utility with a classes core mechanic. :P

spoj.9672:

Minions account for a very small percentage of your overall damage and theres no way to boost them.

Pretty much this. Even my cleric MM build is pretty close to 50/50, and that is only because I have one 6/7 of my major traits for minions.

Thx much – this is what I was trying to get at.

Currently, Mesmers can focus on shatter, phantasms or conditions as their damage strategy (where something like 75% of the damage comes from that mechanism)

It seems like minions can’t get to that level (despite having at least 3 traits that seem to be designed to increase total damage from minions)