Complaint about condi
A common misconception about power is that is doesn’t help condition builds. Because it does. You still do damage from attacks which scale from power. Even if you’re only hitting for say 1k per auto, that’s still effectively +1k dps which you wouldn’t say no to if it was condition damage.
Equally you generally wouldn’t want expertise as a primary stat because it has a cap (just like precision). In most cases you can easily cap the condition durations you want (bleeding and poison for necromancer) with traits/runes/sigils and food.
Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.
there is a prefix which gives toughness/condi dmg/expertise/vitality, if that is what you want.
there is a prefix which gives toughness/condi dmg/expertise/vitality, if that is what you want.
I would love the expertise but i don’t want toughness as that will just get too much attention from mobs.
there is a prefix which gives toughness/condi dmg/expertise/vitality, if that is what you want.
I would love the expertise but i don’t want toughness as that will just get too much attention from mobs.
This is only true in raids. Outside them a much wider variety of factors, including proximity, damage done, type of damage, etc, are used to determine mob targets. Toughness is not the be-all and end-all of mob targetting.
there is a prefix which gives toughness/condi dmg/expertise/vitality, if that is what you want.
I would love the expertise but i don’t want toughness as that will just get too much attention from mobs.
Attention? Pfffff play like a man :P
(but as someone above said, toughness is only relevant for raids, gl getting a necro into a raid lol)
The stat’s you want are not available because they are too good.
Expertise, condition damage, vitality is not in the game for the same reason boon and condition duration were removed from trait lines – balance of risk vs dps.
The stat’s you want are not available because they are too good.
Expertise, condition damage, vitality is not in the game for the same reason boon and condition duration were removed from trait lines – balance of risk vs dps.
Too bad that this decoupling made things less-balanced since boon and condition duration are back in the game as stats, where now people can just pick better traits/lines and get the stats they want.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
If there is a complaint I have about condi is the requirement of playing both reaper and being a mid range as opposed to long range. Its something that goes against my general play style. Its a minor complaint and not so much a bash against its effectiveness. Considering I like the DPS output the problem I have is that this hurts us in fights like Vale guardian where they want you to run away from the boss constantly since you’re technically still ranged.
Fantasy Condi set though? Well, the benefits you get from the power as opposed to another stat like vitality are minor. They do benefit yes, but if I could choose a stat type in PvE I’d go with deadshot. Drop decimate defenses in favor of Chilling Victory for that sweet sweet life force. Though I wouldn’t mind swapping the precision and power as opposed to the vitality, I’d like to have a bit more bulk to my shroud. A personal preference.
^^ There is no requirement to play reaper and being midranged as a condi build … unless you are letting someone dictate how you should play; the game doesn’t do that to you. Complaints are realistic if it’s the game that limits you, not players.
There is some validity to the OP’s issue, but I don’t think it’s for the reasons he’s explained. The real issue is that purely from numbers, Vipers is the clear winner as THE condition-based build prefix, even over Sinisters, except for REALLY short encounters where the expertise from Vipers does not benefit you. It would have been nice for Anet to put some thought into the stats, just so Vipers was not THE defacto armor set for Condi builds … or even hybrid builds.
^^ There is no requirement to play reaper and being midranged as a condi build … unless you are letting someone dictate how you should play; the game doesn’t do that to you. Complaints are realistic if it’s the game that limits you, not players.
No there isn’t a requirement but I was primarily talking about effectiveness. Necromancer reaper absolutely shines in Midrange as condi. And shines in melee as power. You are not required to do so but you will take a loss in DPS if you decide to go against its design. Like I said before though, My complaint about this isn’t harping against the Melee/midrange design of the reaper. Its a personal preference. Its more a reflection on lack of options that my complaint stems from. I do think a Midrange option should be viable and I think Condi reaper is viable to an extent. My preference would be pure ranged DPS or Condi range/support.
I absolutely must note this though that I am in no way suggesting the Reaper should be changed to fit my play style desires. Because I still enjoy it and I feel that it works as is. However for a future elite specialization I’d like to see something that fills the niche I’m personally looking for and I’d assume others would be interested in as well.
Even just referring to effectiveness, I still don’t understand your complaint. There are a few condi builds, all effective and with reasonable DPS and they can be made to focus on a few different things each. I think it’s a common error to overlook Scepter as a good option for Condi on Necro; the fast bleed stack build on reaper version isn’t better than the sustainable, constant pressure that you get with the core Necro version.
I don’t really see how Condi scepter build not fulfilling a condi ranged support role. It does that more than adequately. I guess more details or specific examples would be necessary to understand you complaint better.
Even just referring to effectiveness, I still don’t understand your complaint. There are a few condi builds, all effective and with reasonable DPS and they can be made to focus on a few different things each. I think it’s a common error to overlook Scepter as a good option for Condi on Necro; the fast bleed stack build on reaper version isn’t better than the sustainable, constant pressure that you get with the core Necro version.
I don’t really see how Condi scepter build not fulfilling a condi ranged support role. It does that more than adequately. I guess more details or specific examples would be necessary to understand you complaint better.
You are making a very strange assumption there. You assume that the scepter isn’t being used in the most effective condi necro build(It is) and that what you seem to be suggesting is that it is the sole pillar of the build that determines if you are Ranged, Midranged or Melee. So I think i’m going to have to explain a few things on why the reaper condi build is a midrange build at its most effective.
But first what is a ranged build as opposed to Midrange? Well a ranged build uses primarily ranged abilities in order to maintain what its trying to do. In this instance, DPS. A Midrange build on the other hand works best between the front and the backline. A purely ranged build would be primarily from 800-1,200 range though it can dip as close as 600. A midrange build sticks around 400-900 primarily and can dip as close as Melee. The necromancer’s builds primarily fall into Midrange even before Reaper but reaper takes that a step further and pushes them more on the side of Midrange. We can see this with its abilities.
Scepter and OH Dagger both function as Long range but can fall comfortably in midrange, though Midrange is a subcategory of ranged and few weapons actually fall into a pure long range subcategory. Revenant Hammer and Mesmer Greatsword would both be long range weapons specifically because their effectiveness is tied to their distance from the target. The scepter doesn’t have this but because it can’t strike at 1,200 range it is already closer to midrange and is just as effective at midrange but not as effective at long range.
Now lets look at some of the common abilities the reaper will often use in a Condi build. How many of those abilities are actually long range as opposed to Midrange or even Melee? All shouts are midrange with their 600 aoe, so common skills like “Suffer” and “Chill to the bone” firmly fall into Midrange. Blood Is power has a 1,200 range but their is a kicker with that skill. BiP is technically a supportive skill which means it is most effective at Midrange and I’ll explain that in a bit. Corrosive poison cloud, another common option is 900 range but has a little extra reach, so this can be argued that it works as a powerful ranged ability. Now the necromancer’s and by extension the reaper’s most powerful skill is a long ranged ability. Epidemic. However it is useless without conditions to spread so you need to rely on other abilities in order to achieve its potential.
Some of the reaper’s most Powerful DPS comes from its rotation using reaper’s shroud. Soul Spiral along with Executioner’s Scythe in combination with Deathly Chill should incentivise you to go into melee. And since you want to use that off cool down this will firmly stick you into Midrange. Its easy to get into Melee at midrange or long range from Midrange. Its useful for the Midrange fighters.
Now I’m going to explain what I was saying earlier about BiP. The Midrange line is most effective for supportive characters. Some Support characters can function very well at long range, but the most effective spot is mid. Mid gives you access to both your long ranged allies and melee allies. This is even more applicable when we think about the typical range of supportive abilities in GW2 which often have a radius of 600 or as low as 240(in BiP’s case). The necromancer’s support is no acceptation to this. Vampiric presence has a radius of 600 as well as transfusion.
The Reaper’s Condi build is at its most effective in Midrange. However, this becomes a problem for fights like Vale guardian that would prefer a dedicated long ranged combatant or dedicated melee combatant as a condi or raw DPS. The necromancer doesn’t have effective Melee DPS and its ranged DPS is limited pretty heavily by a few of its skills being in melee, locked at 600 range and never reaching as far as 1,200 range. All of this combine sticks the Reaper firmly in Midrange without the high quality of support that is afforded to other professions.
snip
In my opinion, the design of the Reaper’s condi builds being Midrange at their most effective is not a problem. Its not my preference, but its not a problem. My Issue with it is simply that if I’m going to be in Midrange, I’d like to support a bit more or I’d like a as effective or close to as effective at 1,200 range as I am at 400. But this isn’t the case.
Arena Net seems to have designed the necromancer to favor Midrange. This is evident with its death shroud design along with its weapon design at the game’s release. However they’ve since started realizing that we haven’t been effective in this, so changes have taken place like Axe going from 600 to 900 range and the distance clause being removed from life blast. But the residual design choice to balance necromancer around the midrange distance is still hard wired into the profession. Reaper on the other hand was designed specifically with melee in mind and a consequence of that when playing a dedicated ranged build such as Condi reaper means that in spite of what you might want to do you’ll always be more effective dipping into Melee to execute your shroud skills. Luckily you can do that. But this doesn’t mean I wouldn’t want an elite spec that breaks us away from this short distance mold or at least provides us with some amazing support while we’re stuck at midrange anyway.
I think the hang up here for me is that you keep referring to the reaper condition build as well as a problem with midrange lacking support. I can’t see how midrange lacking support is a condition build issue. I also don’t think that it’s very relevant to use a hybrid build like Reaper Condi as a focus on complaining about condi builds for Necros.
The Core Necro Scepter build addresses the range issue and the support issue. If you want a build that keeps you at range, gives you support and excels at condition damage as a Necro, it exists.
I think the hang up here for me is that you keep referring to the reaper condition build as well as a problem with midrange lacking support. I can’t see how midrange lacking support is a condition build issue. I also don’t think that it’s very relevant to use a hybrid build like Reaper Condi as a focus on complaining about condi builds for Necros.
The Core Necro Scepter build addresses the range issue and the support issue. If you want a build that keeps you at range, gives you support and excels at condition damage as a Necro, it exists.
No… I said its not my personal preference(AKA its my opinion. I’ve made that abundantly clear.). Also, Core necromancer’s DPS is inferior to Reaper DPS. Its also inferior in terms of its ability to escape, gap close and control. For support the options for Core necromancer are just as limited as Reaper, there is no difference in their support because they are both limited to the same support. In terms of ally supporting traits they exist exclusively in Blood magic so its not like you lose the option to take blood magic if you take reaper. There isn’t 2 support specializations you could be taking along with curses that Reaper is replacing. it isn’t. And you are not locked out of using any of your utility skills or weapons by taking reaper. So that argument isn’t valid, I’m sorry to say.
Core necro does not address the ranged issue. Tainted Shackles, Corrosive poison cloud, Scepter, off hand Dagger all fall in Midrange. You also have to understand that Midrange is a sub catagory of range. Its still a ranged build but its effectiveness is not at the back line but Mid line. This is an important distinction I’ve been making that you keep missing.
You claim condi reaper shines in midrange as reaper, OK. You’ve said you would prefer would be pure ranged DPS or Condi range/support, OK. My point is that Scepter build gives you exactly a Condi range support build that you prefer to have; reaper traited or not. I don’t get your fixation on some mid/back line difference other than the one you elude to in Vale Guardian. I mean, overall, Necro has a pretty bad 1200+ range options, so I think the complaint you have is just a lack of good damage 1200+ range options, not really related to condition damage?
(edited by Obtena.7952)
From my perspective, un-nerfed Deathly Chill is a vast improvement in Necromancer’s condition dps options.
Those options are…
Epidemic,
Scepter AA full condition build,
Greatsword hybrid power/condi
That is 3 options where before there was only 2; meaning a 50% improvement in condition dps choices.
You claim condi reaper shines in midrange as reaper, OK. You’ve said you would prefer would be pure ranged DPS or Condi range/support, OK. My point is that Scepter build gives you exactly a Condi range support build that you prefer to have; reaper traited or not. I don’t get your fixation on some mid/back line difference other than the one you elude to in Vale Guardian. I mean, overall, Necro has a pretty bad 1200+ range options, so I think the complaint you have is just a lack of good damage 1200+ range options, not really related to condition damage?
You don’t see players asking specifically for Necromancer support. its nice if they happen to have it but when compared to other professions who do similar support, such as Druid or warrior their isn’t a real comparison. Necromancer support is by far weaker than all other professions when compared 1 for 1.
My complaint however was always about personal preference. An opinion. I don’t find them sticking to midrange to be a problem. Because its not. My preference was made abundantly clear. However the statements I’ve made about their capabilities and their effectiveness compared to other professions and their own elite spec are not opinions. Those are fact that we can and have tested.
I still don’t understand the complaint, personal preference or not. I can’t see how specific skills and traits that you are using in a build are less effective at 900 range as opposed to some theoretical longer range; they will still do all the same things at whatever range that Anet decides they work at. The ability to stand farther back to perform certain tasks is more of a risk reduction issue that will always be somewhat how well you perform at a given set of ranges. In GW2 there seems to be only two ranges where that distinction exists on a macro level; melee and not-melee
Regardless, I don’t see how this line of discussion relates to the thread; it’s about how gear is related to condi builds on Necros. Anet has lost another opportunity to add variation to their gearing options by making Viper’s defacto for the various condi build options we have. /shrug
Necromancer’s primary group “support” is soft CC, which bosses shrug off with the Defiance bar – same story as 2013. Chill, blind, weakness, cripple, boon corruption, condition flipping; if boss battles required lots of this, Necromancer would be core meta.
I think her preference is simple. She would like to see a good 1200 range build in the future, and she would like to see necro have a good support role which it lacks right now. I am uncertain if condi has to be a part of this, but those are what I took away from what Lily is saying.
The only support we have is boon corruption, condi management, and life steal. All pretty unique, but not in high demand, sadly.
I think her preference is simple. She would like to see a good 1200 range build in the future, and she would like to see necro have a good support role which it lacks right now. I am uncertain if condi has to be a part of this, but those are what I took away from what Lily is saying.
The only support we have is boon corruption, condi management, and life steal. All pretty unique, but not in high demand, sadly.
You are correct. Condi doesn’t have to be part of it although I was saying that Since we are already in the midline anyway might as well have that option.
My preference for a good long range supportive build would be Spirit ritualist elite spec…. But that’s a completely different topic.